28000 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 0:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thomas / The Doomed March Fly Hi Thomas, Thank you for the fly following the cow story;-) ;-) --- nordwest wrote: > > > We often forget, that we have the buddha nature, the power to do > supernatural wonders with the mind. And because of lack of faith we fail > to do so. .... I don't know if you read my other posts to you on 'buddha nature'.You could try keying in 'thomas' at this link to find anything addressed to you: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ > Some may interpret the sutras like the Christians the bible, when it > some to the point of supernatural powers, and say, "It's not meant > literally. It's exaggeration." I do nt so. I take it literally, because > I experience the protection of the buddhas and bodhisattvas daily. .... I appreciate that. If you haven't noticed, however, we are discussing suttas rather than sutras here on DSG;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 28001 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi RobM (& James), I meant to check a bit more on the SPECT scan study, but only just got round to it. --- robmoult wrote: > The area of the brain in question (Orientation Association Area) has > the role of collecting sensory data and organizing it around > a "self". A significantly decreased blood flow to that specific > portion of the brain would correspond to a decreased sense of "self" > as something separate from the surroundings. > > Depending on one's religious inclinations, one could describe this > sensation as: > - Being at one with the universe > - Talking to God > - Perceiving anatta .... OR a decreased spatial orientation. From what I recall from the Brain series and other studies, those without or severely reduced idea of spatial orientation are not necessarily wiser in any way, but find it very difficult to function. This may also explain symptoms such as dizziness, loss of balance, rocking etc, common amongst intense meditators. I’d be interested to know whether there is a correlation between reduced blood pressure also and the spatial disorientation, because those of us with low blood pressure tend to experience similar symptoms and I don’t think they make us any more enlightened either;-) .... > To me, the fact that these scientists have designated an area that > creates a sense of self that overlays the sensory input is > significant - this aligns well with the Buddhist view that "self" is > only a concept. .... Rob, I have a number of misgivings about ‘these scientists’. I believe there were fewer than 10 subjects for a start and as I’ve said, I think we read the conclusions we wish into the results. James, I’d like to stress here, that I’d be equally sceptical if the same results and conclusions were reached after having half a dozen DSGers study Abhidhamma texts in Pali for several hours. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if they also showed reduced blood flow to parts of the brain, spatial disorientation and so on. I’m not questioning the particular meditation practice in this thread. I also appreciate that your practice is very useful for you (though this doesn’t qualify you to know who has and hasn’t ‘hit rock bottom’;-)). ..... > I would suggest that any activity that causes a decreased blood flow > to this portion of the brain would help one to perceive "anatta". I > am not surprised that deep meditation can be a condition for this > arising. I suspect that, depending on the individual, other > conditions could also lead to a similar result. .... Rob, I just don’t understand why you would reach this conclusion at all. What are the conditions for understanding anatta? Surely nowhere in the texts is there any suggestion that a decreased blood flow to any part of the brain is one. (BTW, I think Dilbert/Scott Adams was just saying 'go against the flow' and go shopping in Colombo;-) ;-)) Metta, Sarah p.s If anyone else wishes to look a little more into this study, here is a quote (I’ve lost track of the source- I think the first link below) and a couple of other links I looked at: >Orientation Association Area, the part of the brain which influences our orientation in time and space. This area of the brain ( the posterior superior parietal lobe ) encourage religious beliefs." The frontal lobes of the brain, which are associated with attention, showed increased activity. They expected this, since greater concentration and focus was essential to meditation and prayer. More surprising was activity they observed in that area of the brain affiliated with the Orientation Association Area, the part of the brain which influences our orientation in time and space. This area of the brain ( the posterior superior parietal lobe ) helps us judge up/down, forward/behind, and must function all the time to assist movement. Newberg concluded that this decreased activity observed in these areas of the brain was responsible for the transcendental states experienced by the praying nuns and meditating monks. http://fp.bio.utk.edu/skeptic/reviews/Newberg&DAquili.html http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lngbrain/cglidden/parietal.html http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro01/web3/Farrenkopf.html ================================================================= 28002 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:33am Subject: Re: characteristics Hi TG and everyone, I am taking a shine to the conditions that led to the writing of this post. That was the serious bit. Now comes the disposable bit, without which it wouldn't be a post from me. If only I could grasp at and hold those conditions. Much appreciation Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hello Group > > The Buddha said... "In whatsoever way we conceive, the truth is ever other > than that." > > It seems to me that in order to communicate we need to use terms, but > whenever we use terms, we miss the "mark of actuality" to some degree. I think its > more of a matter of getting away from bad terms than actually finding one > that's accurate. > > The term "characteristic" seems to me much better than say "own > characteristic" or the even worse "intrinsic characteristic." (The latter two way too > strongly ignoring the principle of Dependent Origination.) No matter how good the > term is, its still fraught with notions of essence, entity, etc. > > Even when a "bare ingredient" such as "firmness" is conceptualized, I think > we cannot help but impart a sense of "entity" to it. > > So what can be done is to use the best term possible and be mindful that even > its conceptualization is delusive. (I suppose if one were enlightened, that > mindfulness would have been cultivated to the point that no delusive attribute > would accompany the use of terminology.) > > TG > > 28003 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Grasping at mind states Hi Jon and everyone, Thank you, Jon, for your considered reply. I'll work backwards from end to front. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > The adage that 'practice makes perfect' is fine for some things, but > not for the development of understanding or other forms of kusala, > and I don't believe you'll find it anywhere in the texts. This is > because the 'practice' is bound to be akusala (by definition -- if it > was kusala it wouldn't be 'practice' in the sense you have just used > the term). > > Jon > I understand the need to be brief, but am finding it difficult to just post a link. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel027.html Going Forth (Pabbajja) - A Call to Buddhist Monkhood by Sumana Samanera For those inclined to do so, read the whole lot, I found it very worthwhile. For those under constraints, do a search on "Dear Mr. N., " and read that section. For those under even greater constraints, the salient point of the message is : "1. persistence; 2. persistence; 3. persistence". I seriously wonder to what extent that particular understanding of the teachings that militates against directed activity is intended to keep samsara an attractive proposition. Isn't it a self-concept that lies at the source of the studious avoidance of anything that could be interpreted as originating from a self-concept? Peace, love and joy Herman 28004 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Noticeable difference? Hi Christine (& Ben), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > For those of us studying the Dhamma, reflecting on what we have > learned, associating with admirable friends and diligently > practising according to Dhamma - should all this conscientious effort > and application make a noticeable difference (sounds like a face > cream :-)) to our characters and personalities? ... I’d say, not necessarily and if we hope that it will, it indicates clinging again. .... >I mean, should other > people be able to see 'good' qualities and changes in us, and thereby > be attracted to the Dhamma. "I want what she's having" (sounds like > an hamburger advert. :-)). .... ;-) I don’t think we need to be concerned about looking like a hamburger ad. Changes are ‘internal’ rather than ‘external’. For example, if we’re eating a hamburger, who can tell from the outside whether there is any sati and panna? Also, as in the sutta I quoted the other day, only an arahant can tell another arahant’s wisdom and so on down to basic understanding of namas and rupas and other wholesome states. If there is no knowledge of these, how will there be any knowledge of another’s understanding of them? Metta, generosity, equanimity, sympathetic joy, compassion.....the same applies. It always comes back to our ‘own’ mental states and the namas and rupas that can be directly known, rather than concern about others'. .... >Apart from keeping the Precepts, should > Dhamma study and practice cause us to be kinder, more understanding > of others, less likely to hurt others by deed or by verbal aggression > in the form of sarcasm or a 'joke'? .... Dhamma study should help us to know states better at the present moment. Now, is there an intention to be kind or to hurt others? When we laugh and joke, what are the realities? If someone teases us and we feel hurt, what is the problem? I think we can only know for ourselves. I laugh and joke a lot with my students and of course there’s plenty of lobha. This is natural, no need to kid ourselves. Also, there are intentions to encourage the students by making their studies more enjoyable. We don’t need to be too serious all the time. My brothers and I tease each other on the rare occasions we meet. It’s an indication of our fondness for each other and is always meant in a very kindly way. Just because there’s a lot of lobha doesn’t mean we need to change our habits unnaturally. In the same way, just because there is bound to be plenty of akusala when we help people (and I was close to losing my temper with a StarKid -- the one who likes to write to James -- last Friday when he broke my photocopier), doesn’t mean we should stop helping or doing our best. This would be wrong . .... > The stimulus for this was my thinking over the Christian saying 'By > their fruits ye shall know them". What would the noticeable 'fruits' > be of a ardent Disciple of the Blessed One? ..... Why does there need to be a noticeable fruit? Ben suggested they would never get angry. This would be so for anagamis and arahants for sure. For the rest of us, who can say that when conditions change we won’t get angry? In the photocopier incident, I was in a good mood and the class was going well when the incident occurred. So quickly my mood changed. As Nina and Ken O have been discussing, the latent tendencies are very powerful, ready to act as conditions for defilements to arise anytime. We never know how and when we’re going to be tested. It reminds me of the story in the Dhp commentary when the maid servant got up later and later to test her calm, kind mistress until the latter ‘snapped’. Christine, I’d like to hear more of your own reflections on your questions.I’m sure you have plenty of good ideas and quotes as well. In your post to Azita, you mentioned that you’d received the impression on DSG that “as if, because there is no-self, and there really is no-one who is suffering, there is no need really to feel for others or do anything - and it is their kamma anyway.” I hope she'll give her comments. This sounds quite wrong to me. What do you mean by ‘feel for others’? Do you mean have metta and compassion? If so, I’ve never read anything on DSG to suggest there is 'no need' for any wholesome states or acts(link?). Of course, the near (and far) enemies and the importance of knowing the truth are often pointed out, else our perceptions and outlook are likely to become more and more perverted and distorted, don’t you think? We discussed this at length in Thailand and Myanmar. We were all encouraging you to help the dogs or whatever else you were inclined to do, developing more understanding in the process. When my leg was painful one day, Oi and Shakti just kindly started massaging it and putting special oils on it. We all have different inclinations in these regards and just continue leading our normal lives, helping each other and those around us as best we can, understanding more about the realities that make up our lives at the same time. It is also only by seeing realities that there will truly be any understanding of conditions and kamma directly, not by thinking. It’s always good to see you posting, Christine. I look forward to any feedback. Metta, Sarah ===== 28005 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Ken, Thanks for your post. Comments interspersed below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > ------------- > H: > How did you come to the conclusion that the concepts > kusala/akusala are not dependent on a point of view? > ---------------- > > Do you mean; "What a strange conclusion, how did you > reach it?" Or do you mean; "To whom are you indebted for > that gem of intellectual understanding?" > > In either case, I wouldn't have it any other way. If > kusala/akusala depended on a point of view, there would > be no sense in the world -- it would be one never ending > debate; "You think this is good; I think it is bad. . ." > > Kusala kamma bears pleasant fruit; akusala kamma, > unpleasant fruit. All the endless points of view, over > which is kusala and which is akusala, are without > influence -- the results will be the same. > > ------------- Your well-written paragraphs above are traceable as reflecting the views held by certain groups in a certain sub-continent at a certain time. There is no time and no place, however, in which an absolute morality can exist. Morality is always yoked to meaning which is always yoked to intention. What is a pleasant fruit today? That there is no sense in the world is quite correct. Why persist in maintaining the investment program? > H: > What allows you to know the results of intention, > and how to classify those results, without recourse to a > conceptual superstructure that is noone's point of view? > ------------- > > Consciousness at the sense doors knows the results of > intentional action (vipaka). Mind-door consciousness > knows mental states accumulated by all kinds of > intention. They take no recourse in conceptual > superstructure, they depend solely on conditions -- other > paramattha dhammas. If panna (right understanding) is > not present, then there is no way of telling which is > which. Points of view have no influence. > > Is that what you were asking? > > Kind regards, > Ken H Ken, to me the above paragraph is a retelling of a story I have heard many a time. And you have retold it faithfully. And that sounds condescending. And I don't intend that. I ask my kids at the dinner table "What is there when there is no thinking?". They say I'm nuts. I'm quite happy with that. Peace love and joy Herman 28006 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] sutta and Abhidhamma. Hi Nina Actually the exact technicality how it works in the accesstoinsight.org, I also using guess work for eg http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn07-006.html sn is Samyutta Nikaya 07 is Brahmana-samyutta 006 - Sutta no 6. That is how i think the convention works in accesstoinsight.org website regards Ken O 28007 From: Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tiika Vis 49, 53 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 12/14/03 8:35:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I think I am leaning toward understanding sense doors as nerve ends. > Obviously science hasn't completely figured this out and I'm sure it > isn't necessary to understand everything about it to penetrate desire. > One thing that seems to happen is that sense input is somehow converted > into electricity and then transmitted to the brain where it somehow > creates a semblance of the world. The rupa that is supposedly "out > there" is different from the rupa that consciousness experiences. This > is obvious in something like color blindness. > > Larry > ============================ I think that the problem (for an Abhidhammika, and for me as well) with understanding sense doors as nerve ends, is that such a position puts one at odds with the Abhidhamma position on paramattha dhammas vs pa~n~natti. Sense doors are supposed to be rupas, hence paramattha dhammas, but nerve ends are pa~n~natti, aren't they? With metta, Howard > --------------------- > Howard: "This is *very* interesting. Now ... what do you make of it > vis-a-vis Abhidhamma? My first thought with regard to this is that the > physical sense organ, a conventional object, is not the sense door. > Whatever is sensed as sight has entered the "eye door", and whatever is > sensed as sound has entered the "ear door". The sense doorways are not > material objects in the conventional sense (though classified as rupas), > but are better thought of as channels or fields or loci of experiences > of a certain sort. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28008 From: Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness and so on..... was Re: Buddhaghosa etc Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/15/03 2:57:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Howard gave these quotes from the Visuddhimagga on > su~n~nattaa and anattaa: > > H:> (1) In XXI, 56, there is the following: Having discerned > voidness in the six modes in this way , he > discerns it again in eight modes, that is to say: 'Materiality has no > core, is coreless, without core, as far as concerns (i) any core of > permanence, or (ii) core of lastingness, or (iii) core of pleasure, or > (iv)core of self, or as far as concerns (v) what is permanent, or (vi) > what is lasting,or (vii) what is eternal, or (viii) what is not subject to > change. khandas, ayatanas, links in the chain of dependent origination etc.> Just > as a reed has no core, is coreless, without core; just as a castor-oil > plant, an udumbara (fig) tree, a setavaccha tree, a palibhaddaka tree, a > lump of froth, a bubble on water, a mirage, a plantain trunk, a conjuring > trick, has no core is coreless, without core, so too materiality etc.' > > (2) In XI, 104, there is the following, with the capitalization for > emphasis being mine: ... They are states (dhamma) owing to bearing > (dharana) for the length of the moment appropriate to them. They are > impermanent in the sense of [liability to] destruction; they are painful > in the sense of [causing] terror; THEY ARE NOT SELF IN THE SENSE OF HAVING > NO CORE [OF > PERMANENCE AND SO ON]. ... > (Howard’s caps). > ============================ I don't doubt at all that you are correct that I gave these quotes, but I happen not to remember it. Do you recall the context in which I did that, and was it a while ago? (I'm not usually so good in giving quotes! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28009 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:16am Subject: anapanasati 6 d anapanasati 6 d QUOTE 2. Jon The objects of awareness under the Satipatthana Sutta are dhammas (realities), not concepts. The consciousness/mind section refers to the dhamma that is the moment of consciousness. The mind objects/mental objects section refers to the dhammas (realities) that can be the object of a moment of consciousness, and this in turn means any and all realities (including those covered by the other 3 sections of the sutta). To give an example. At a moment of seeing there is contact between the consciousness that sees and visible object. That visible object is a reality and also, at that precise moment, a mind object (it is the object of seeing consciousness). So the visible object at that moment falls under both the rupas’ section and the mind object’ section of the 4 satipatthanas. This helps remind us that the 4 sections in the sutta are merely ways of classifying realities and are not in themselves absolutes. Only dhammas (realties) can be the object of satipatthana, because only something that has its own characteristic that is capable of being experienced is considered to be a dhamma’; anything that does not, is not. In the Satipatthana Sutta itself, the 'eligible' mind-objects are described in different ways. One of these ways is as the 5 khandhas (Aggregates), and these 5 khandhas encompass all dhammas (other than Nibbana). I have pasted below the passage from The Way of Mindfulness’ Jon Section on Mental Objects 2. The Aggregates "And, further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu thinks: 'Thus is material form [rupa]; thus is the arising of material form; and thus is the disappearance of material form. Thus is feeling [vedana]; thus is the arising of feeling; and thus is the disappearance of feeling. Thus is perception [sanna]; thus is the arising of perception; and thus is the disappearance of perception. Thus are the formations [sankhara]; thus is the arising of the formations; and thus is the disappearance of the formations. Thus is consciousness [vinnana]; thus is the arising of consciousness; and thus is the disappearance of consciousness.' Thus he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, internally ... and clings to naught in the world. "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging." [ends] ********** END QUOTE 2 28010 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tiika Vis, the eye. Hi Larry and Howard, op 15-12-2003 02:07 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I think I am leaning toward understanding sense doors as nerve ends. > Obviously science hasn't completely figured this out and I'm sure it > isn't necessary to understand everything about it to penetrate desire. N: There is so much under the sun. There are always deviations from the natural course, by sickness, LSD, or by other conditions we do not know them. Science always makes new discoveries, but as you say it does not lead to the goal: understanding the four noble Truths. It does not teach conditions for citta and defilements, or the three characteristics. The following sutta speaks about what is the normal, natural course, not about exceptions. We read in the Middle Length Sayings I, 43, Mahaavedallasutta: about a conversation between Sariputta and Maha Kotthita: The answer is that the mind is the repository, and mind reacts to their pasture and range. The next question is on what they depend. The answer is vitality, the life-faculty. We should think of the eyedecad, produced by kamma, which includes life faculty (jivitindriya). It is important that paryatti, theoretical understanding, is correct, otherwise insight cannot be developed. The eyesense is base and doorway for seeing, as we have read in the Tiika (and elsewhere). A sense base is the place of origin for citta. We are nama and rupa, and thus there is a physical base for each citta. Citta does not originate in the air. > Howard: "This is *very* interesting. Now ... what do you make of it > vis-a-vis Abhidhamma? My first thought with regard to this is that the > physical sense organ, a conventional object, is not the sense door. > Whatever is sensed as sight has entered the "eye door", and whatever is > sensed as sound has entered the "ear door". The sense doorways are not > material objects in the conventional sense (though classified as rupas), > but are better thought of as channels or fields or loci of experiences > of a certain sort. N: I would like to point to the clarity of the Abhidhamma. By doorway is meant: the means through which citta experiences an object. The word doorway is figurative. Eyesense is base and doorway for seeing. It is alo doorway for the other cittas in that sense-door process, it has not yet fallen away. Eyesense is not nama, it is rupa. It is not a conventional reality. We read in the Book of Analysis, Ch 3: Analysis of the Elements, § 184: The meaning of element, dhatu: what is devoid of self. Dhatu and dhamma is almost the same in meaning. Going back to the sutta: Seeing has nothing to do with hearing; they have different objects (fields or ranges), different bases. They do not know each other: they cannot arise at the same time. This has to be correctly understood. It is essential foundation knowledge for the development of insight. Larry: >I looked into eye anatomy on the web and I think what is being talked about is the end cap of the optic nerve. N: Cornea, pupil, lense, that is for medical doctors, but it has nothing to do with insight. L: The 7 layers could be 7 parts of the eye depending on how you count them N: In the suttas many similes are used to explain realities, and in the Co. even more. Do not confuse similes with medical science. 7 layers: it shows that eyesense is well hidden, but it is there, arising and falling away. L: The impermanence of it doesn't mean much to me. It is like the impermanence of all rupas, too fast to be noticed. I think it is better to consider impermanence in experiential time. N: The characteristic of impermanence cannot be realized immediately. First any misunderstanding about nama and rupa should be discarded. Eyesense is a coarse rupa, it can be object of insight. It is called *near* in the Visuddhimagga. Different from the subtle rupas which are far. In the end all has to be known. Think of in the Path of Discrimination. Nina. 28011 From: robmoult Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Nina (and others), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M, > op 13-12-2003 11:13 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > > Is the "law of kamma" the same as "kamma condition" in the Patthana? > N: They are different aspects dealt with in different contexts. > Kamma produces result when it is the right time, and also other factors, > place where on lives, time, etc. play their part. But the kamma once > committed can even for arahats (Moggallana, Angulimala) rpoduce result. Not > even a Buddha can prevent this. Kamma nyaama. > As to kamma-condition, we have to differentiate conascent kamma, cetanaa > arising with each citta (conditioning the accompanying dhammas), and > naa.nakkha.nika kamma-paccaya, kamma working from a different time (the > past). ===== Understood. ===== > R: ... It is therefore not correct to say that incidents > > that happen to you arise because of kamma condition. Incidents are > > not mental states. Incidents that happen to you arise because of a > > complex set of conditions, but it would seem that it is not > > appropriate to talk of kamma when discussing incidents. > > > > People do talk of incidents happening "because of kamma". Is this > > incorrect? > N: I find Sarah's expression that a situation can be a shorthand for dhammas > helpful. There were many posts about this. Jon remarked that praise and > blame etc. are used in the Tipitaka to denote results of kamma. When we > analyse different moments it is more complex of course. ===== Not understood. Please provide some details. I am just about to get on an airplane to go to Canada on two weeks vacation, so I may not reply for some time. Metta, Rob M :-) 28012 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness and so on..... was Re: Buddhaghosa etc Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ============================ > I don't doubt at all that you are correct that I gave these > quotes, > but I happen not to remember it. Do you recall the context in which I > did that, > and was it a while ago? (I'm not usually so good in giving quotes! ;-) ..... Those were the days;-). A link would have helped (on my part). If you lose it again, I came across it by keying in ‘plantain’ in escribe. I’ll give your old post to Erik in its entirety after signing off, as it’s not too long. Metta, Sarah: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m728.html On Second Thought (Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Self / Not self) * From: upasaka (view other messages by this author) * Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:46:59 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi, Erik and all - In a message dated 3/20/01 11:36:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > My point - and I might be right, and I might be wrong - is that the > notion of 'anatta' (or 'sunya') in Theravada is a restriction of that in > Mahayana. > When a Mahayanist says that all dharmas are empty he/she means that > they have no separate identity, but only are "things-in-relation". BECAUSE > OF > THIS, in particular, all dharmas are impersonal; that is, they are not, > individually, or in combination, a self in the sense of a (truly existent) > person nor are they owned or controlled by any self or related to any self. > However, when a Theravadin says that all dhammas are empty, he/she > ================================= I decided to check out this idea of mine a bit more carefully by seeing what Buddhaghosa had to say about anatta and sunya. It now seems to me that although the primary Theravadin sense of 'anatta' / 'sunya' is 'impersonal', it is, in fact, not restricted to that. I give a couple quotes of material from the Visudhimagga to bear this out, the first on sunya, and the second on anatta: (1) In XXI, 56, there is the following: Having discerned voidness in the six modes in this way , he discerns it again in eight modes, that is to say: 'Materiality has no core, is coreless, without core, as far as concerns (i) any core of permanence, or (ii) core of lastingness, or (iii) core of pleasure, or (iv)core of self, or as far as concerns (v) what is permanent, or (vi) what is lasting, or (vii) what is eternal, or (viii) what is not subject to change. Just as a reed has no core, is coreless, without core; just as a castor-oil plant, an udumbara (fig) tree, a setavaccha tree, a palibhaddaka tree, a lump of froth, a bubble on water, a mirage, a plantain trunk, a conjuring trick, has no core is coreless, without core, so too materiality etc.' (2) In XI, 104, there is the following, with the capitalization for emphasis being mine: ... They are states (dhamma) owing to bearing (dharana) for the length of the moment appropriate to them. They are impermanent in the sense of [liability to] destruction; they are painful in the sense of [causing] terror; THEY ARE NOT SELF IN THE SENSE OF HAVING NO CORE [OF PERMANENCE AND SO ON]. ... Thus it seems that the Theravadin sense of sunya/anatta, while having somewhat different emphasis from the Mahayana sense, with Theravada putting more emphasis on impersonality, does, indeed, span the same entire range of meaning. I stand corrected. Evidentally, both schools speak of a dhamma as being "anatta" or "not-self" in the sense of beingcoreless, the nonexistent "self" of a dhamma being an alleged core or unchanging, separate identity or own-being. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) --- 28013 From: Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness and so on..... was Re: Buddhaghosa etc Hi, Sarah - Ahh, I see. Thanks very much! With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/15/03 5:01:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >============================ > > I don't doubt at all that you are correct that I gave these > >quotes, > >but I happen not to remember it. Do you recall the context in which I > >did that, > >and was it a while ago? (I'm not usually so good in giving quotes! ;-) > ..... > Those were the days;-). A link would have helped (on my part). If you lose > it again, I came across it by keying in ‘plantain’ in escribe. I’ll give > your old post to Erik in its entirety after signing off, as it’s not too > long. > > Metta, > Sarah: > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28014 From: Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tiika Vis 49, 53 Howard: "Sense doors are supposed to be rupas, hence paramattha dhammas, but nerve ends are pa~n~natti, aren't they?" Larry: AAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!! 28015 From: M. Nease Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) Hi Sarah, Right--thanks for the clarification--could've found it myself had I gone to the beginning of the thread. Always an interesting topic I think. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 9:26 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) Hi Mike, Very glad to see you around keeping an eye on what I write;-) ;-) --- "M. Nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > By this do you mean that yoniso manasikaara arises only with regard to > paramattha dhammas (i.e. never with regard to concepts)? Seems to me > that it can arise with either but not sure. .... Sorry for the confusion. No, I didn't mean that (i.e only arises with regard to paramattha dhammas) and in my first post on the topic I said, I think, that when the javana cittas are sobhana or wholesome,the manasikaara is yoniso and when they are akusala, the manasikaara is ayoniso. So this would apply to all moments of dana, sila and samatha bhavana as well as to satipatthana. Having said that, however, it seemed to me on a quick look that most examples of the use of yoniso manasikaara in the texts, especially in the suttas, are referring to satipatthana as in the other examples I gave. In the following example here, at first I thought 'reflecting wisely' was a translation of yoniso manasikaara, but afterwards it occurred to me that it would be an unusual example of usage and so I checked and found yoniso was used but pa.tisankhaa rather than manasikaara. > > "'Reflecting wisely,he uses the robe only for protection from the > > cold...."- Yoniso for wisely, > but > not not manasikaara.I think reflection here is pa.tisankhaa, looking > at > the back of Vism. I don't think yoniso manasikaara is ever used in > this > kind of context. it didn't sound write when I wrote it. .... I really haven't made much of a study of this. I remember you were interested in this subject before, Mike and would be grateful for any additional comments you could make or any helpful references you have. Thx for this request for clarification too. 28016 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sutta and Abhidhamma. Hi Ken O, I have got it, thank you very much, Nina. op 15-12-2003 15:05 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...: > for eg > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn07-006.html > > sn is Samyutta Nikaya > 07 is Brahmana-samyutta > 006 - Sutta no 6. 28017 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 0:36am Subject: Sounds - heard and unheard Hi Howard & All, Discussing Vism quotes reminded me of your thread with Jon on unknown rupas. I’ll stick to unknown sounds for now. A couple of points you wrote are these: >Howard: Unheard sound, except in physics theory (a conventional model) and commonsense (a conventional model), is unknown and unknowable, and is, to me, meaningless.< > Howard: You seem to be saying that unobserved rupas occur in "Rupaville"! ;-)< ..... I wonder if any of these recent quotes from the Vism threads have been of any interest/assistance in clarifying. 1. Note 22 to Vism X1V,46 from Pm 446-7 "Are not the sounds of washermen [beating their washing on stones] heard later by those who stand at a distance? No; because there is a difference in the way of apprehending a sound according to the ways in which it becomes evident to one nearby and to one at a distance. For just as, because of difference in the way of apprehending the sound of words according to the way in which it becomes evident to one at a distance and to one nearby, there comes to be [respectively] not apprehending, and apprehending, of the differences in the syllables, so also, when the sound of washermen (a) becomes [an occurrence] that is evident throughout from beginning to end to one who is nearby, and (b) becomes an occurrence that is evident in compressed form in the end or in the middle to one who is at a distance, it is because there is a difference in the apprehending and definition, which occur later in the cognitive series of ear-consciousness, that there comes to be the assumption (abhimaana) "Heard faintly is heard later". But that sound comes into the ear's focus at the moment of its own existence and in dependence on the place where it arises (see Ch. XIII, par.112; DhsA.313). If there is absolutely no successive becoming of sound, how does an echo arise? The sound, though it remains at a distance, is a condition for the arising of an echo and for the vibration of vessels, etc., elsewhere as a magnet (ayo-kanta) is for the movement of iron' (Pm. 446-47)." ..... S: In other words, the sound arises and falls away regardless of whether it is heard, heard faintly, heard partially or not heard at all. Nina quoted from U Narada’s Guide to Conditional Relations which explains the difference in eye sensitivity [or ear sensitivity] conditioned by age and other factors: "An old man’s vision [or hearing] is not clear because the sensitive eye has been affected by age and so the eye-consciousness, which is dependent on it, does not give clear vision...." ***** 2. Vism, XiV, 53. "Like snakes, crocodiles, birds, dogs, and jackals that gravitate to their own respective resorts, that is to say, ant-hills, water, space, villages, and charnal grounds, so the eye, etc., should be regarded as gravitating to their own respective resorts, that is to say, visible data, and so on (cf. DhsA. 314)." .... S: I checked DhsA.314 and we read more about the conditions for hearing with an appropriate crocodile reference for me. [aside to Christine & Cooranites: crocodile is su.msumaaro in Pali and the China team still haven’t caught StarCroc;-)] ***** 3. DhsA. 314 (The Expositor,PTS) "Again, the crocodile going out, does not see what there is to seize, but goes after food with eyes shut. But when it has dived into the water a hundred fathoms deep and entered its den and laid itself down, then its mind becomes quieted and it sleeps at ease. So, too, [the sense of] hearing desires a ‘den’; it entertains a wish for the cavity of the ear which is dependent on space. The space in the ear-cavity is the cause of hearing a sound. An open space also is operative when [a bhikkhu] is reciting within [a cave]. The sound does not break through the roof of the cave and come out, but going out by the doors and windows strikes the sensitive ear in an elemental series. Immediately, then, those seated at the back of the cave know that so-and-so is reciting......For when the sensitive ear is struck by sound,there is such and such a variety of knowledge as - distant sound, near sound, sound from the further bank, sound from the hither bank. Such knowledge is natural law. What is this natural law? Wherever there is a cavity,from that comes hearing, like the seeing of the (distant) moon and sun, etc. Such is the absence of physical contact in hearing." ..... S: We learn that space along with sound, ear-sense and contact are essential for hearing to take place. There also has to be kamma condition, decisive support condition and many others for hearing consciousness to take place at that time. As Jon summarised: Jon:>Of course, whether or not that sound actually becomes the object of any being’s hearing consciousness depends on yet another set of conditions; but only sound that has arisen in the first place can be experienced.< S: There have been many other examples about the arising and experience of other rupas. Nina gave the example from Dhs A(The Expositor): Nina:>It is also said that one does not know the hardness or softness of a bed without sitting down in it, and of fruits placed in the hand without pressing them. Very daily examples to remind us of the element of hardness, external and internal. It can be object of awareness now. <...> As you will see, at the end of my Tiika translation it is said: The word papa~nca, obsession, is used to give us an extra stab with the goad. We are obsessed by sense impressions. Therefore understanding of dhammas has to be developed at this moment. The Expositor clarifies the real purpose of all these similes and explanations by stating about the eyesense (308, 309): We never have enough of seeing, we cannot be satisfied, it is like an ocean. <'And this is an empty village,' refers to its being common to many and to the absence of a possessor.> There is no owner who can exert control. It is empty of essence as we read.< end Nina’s quote. ***** I think the points you make and discussions you and Larry have on rupas are important and useful. I look forward to any more of your comments. Metta, Sarah p.s Note the comments above referring to ‘emptiness of essence, of entity’ are Buddhaghosa’s;-) ======================================= 28018 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 0:47am Subject: Re: Noticeable difference? Dear Christine, You asked: ------------- C: > , should Dhamma study and practice cause us to be kinder, more understanding of others, less likely to hurt others by deed or by verbal aggression in the form of sarcasm or a 'joke'? ------------- I like to think there are times when these desirable consequences do show themselves. By knowing that everything is conditioned, we allow wholesome states to arise. The alternative -- the habit of thinking, "I must try harder; I must be good; I must not be bad" -- only gets in the way of wholesome states, don't you think? Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > For those of us studying the Dhamma, reflecting on what we have > learned, associating with admirable friends and diligently > practising according to Dhamma - should all this conscientious effort > and application make a noticeable difference (sounds like a face > cream :-)) to our characters and personalities? 28019 From: sarahdhhk Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 0:52am Subject: Re: Dhamma Hi Kom, RobM & All, I know you're very busy, but it's always good to hear your reminders anytime. Here was one you gave recently on hearing sounds: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > There are other things besides realities that our mind perceive as well: > those that are not realities are concepts. For example, a person is a > concept. A person cannot be experienced without us thinking about what we > see, and what we hear. When you think of me, you form an idea around the > realities that were experienced: what you saw, and what you heard. Ever > heard a sound that you couldn't (at least initially) figure out what it was? > You heard the sound (reality), and eventually form an idea (concept) about > the sound, that it is a person's, an animal's, a car's, etc. All we > really hear is a sound, but we create a story about the sound, that it is > praise, it is scowling, that it is blame. ..... RobM was just asking about praise and blame. We can see from your example that the praise and blame we're so concerned about in a day are merely experiences of sound, visible object and so on followed by long, long stories. Hence the growth of panna and detachment leads to less dependence on the worldly conditions. The result of kamma is just this very moment of seeing or hearing. Metta, Sarah ====== 28020 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 0:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Herman, ------------ H: > Your well-written paragraphs above are traceable as reflecting the views held by certain groups in a certain sub-continent at a certain time. ------------ Thanks for the compliment. I am quite confident that the views of those 'certain groups' were the teaching of the Buddha. ------------ H: > There is no time and no place, however, in which an absolute morality can exist. Morality is always yoked to meaning which is always yoked to intention. ------------ Have you given up on there being a reality beyond the conventional? Do you think the ordinary, run-of-the-mill many-folk had it right all along? --------------- H: > What is a pleasant fruit today? --------------- Now, just as in the Buddha's day, there are lots of pleasant fruit in the life of a human being. But they are only fleeting, physical phenomena not worth clinging to. --------------- . . . H: > Ken, to me the above paragraph is a retelling of a story I have heard many a time. And you have retold it faithfully. And that sounds condescending. And I don't intend that. --------------- Keep an open mind; if the story is true, it would be a shame to reject it. ---------------- H: > I ask my kids at the dinner table "What is there when there is no thinking?". They say I'm nuts. I'm quite happy with that. --------------- A mental process with no thinking is a rare thing -- a state of jhana absorbtion. In satipatthana, however, there is thinking (right thinking). No one could blame you for liking to sit quietly and enjoy the feeling of doing so. It doesn't stop you from learning Dhamma. Have you convinced yourself that sitting quietly is the Dhamma? That would be a big mistake, I think. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 28021 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) Hi Michael, (Mike & All), --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael: > I understand it differently. I think in the stage of javana it is too > late. > Kamma is taking place in javana and my impression is that manasikara at > this > stage is probably not so relevant. I thought manasikara can become > yoniso or > ayoniso at an earlier stage, either receiving, or investigating, or > determining cittas. ..... These ones you mention(sampaticchana, santirana and votthapana cittas) are ahetuka cittas (cittas without ‘root’) and therefore they cannot be wholesome or unwholesome. I think Nina explains quite clearly in the extract from ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’ below which we discussed before on DSG. I know you won’t be averse to the Abhidhamma details here: http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-09.htm “When an object impinges on one of the five senses, panca-dvaravajjana- citta (five-door-adverting consciousness) turns towards the object through that sense-door. This citta is followed by panca-vinnana which experiences the object, by sampaticchana-citta which receives it, by santirana-citta which investigates it and by votthapana-citta which determines the object and then by akusala cittas or kusala cittas. When the cittas of the sense-door process have fallen away the object is experienced through the mind-door. The mano-dvaravajjana-citta adverts to the object through the mind-door and is then followed by akusala cittas or kusala cittas. There is 'unwise attention' (ayoniso manasikara) to the object which is experienced if akusala cittas arise, and there is 'wise attention' (yoniso manasikara) to the object if kusala cittas arise. For example, when we see insects there may be dosa-mula-cittas (cittas rooted in aversion). Thus, there is ayoniso manasikara (unwise attention). The dosa may be so strong that one wants to kill the insects; then there is akusala kamma. If one realizes that killing is akusala and one abstains from killing, there are kusala cittas and thus there is yoniso manasikara (wise attention). If one studies Dhamma and develops vipassana (insight) it is a condition for yoniso manasikara. When we are mindful of the nama or rupa which appears through one of the six doors, there is yoniso manasikara at that moment.” ***** Michael: >I have in my mind that there is a sutta (sorry don’t > know the reference) which says that there are only two requisites for > enlightenment: hearing the true dhamma and wise attention, which ties > with > what has been said in many messages in the list about attention to the > present moment. I also heard once from Bhante G that satipatthana is the > training to develop yoniso manasikara. ..... S: The wise reflection and the wise attention refer to the understanding of present moment dhammas. The development of satipatthana includes yoniso manasikara, panna and other wholesome states. From the Tika to the Satipatthana Sutta (Soma transl): “Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of wisdom (pa~n~naa bhaavanaa). Just the contemplation of material form (corporeality), of feeling, consciousness or mental objects, constitutes the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness.” ..... Note that contemplation doesn't mean thinking, but direct understanding. In ADL, after the explanation above, Nina continues: “When there are two people in the same situation, one person may have ayoniso manasikara and the other may have yoniso manasikara. This depends on their accumulations. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (lV, Salayatanavagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch.V, par. 202, Lustful) about the monk who, after he has experienced an object through one of the six doors, has ayoniso manasikara, and about the monk who has yoniso manasikara. We read that Maha-Moggallana said to the monks: Friends, I will teach you the way of lusting and also of not lusting.... And how, friends, is one lustful? Herein, friends, a monk, seeing object with the eye, feels attachment for objects that charm, feels aversion from objects that displease, abides without mindfulness of the body, and his thoughts are mean. He realizes not, in its true nature, that emancipation of heart, that emancipation of wisdom, wherein those evil, unprofitable states that have arisen cease without remainder. This monk, friends, is called 'lustful after objects cognizable by the eye, nose, tongue... objects cognizable by the mind'; When a monk so abides, friends, if Mara come upon him by way of the eye, Mara gets an opportunity. If Mara come upon him....by way of the mind, Mara gets access, gets opportunity.... So dwelling, friends, objects overcome a monk, a monk overcomes not objects. Sounds overcome a monk, a monk overcomes not sounds. Scents, savours, tangibles and mind-states overcome a monk, a monk overcomes not sounds, scents, savours, tangibles and mind-states. This monk, friends, is called 'conquered by objects, sounds, scents, savours, tangibles and mind-states, not conquerer of them.'; Evil, unprofitable states, passion-fraught, leading to rebirth overcome him, states unhappy, whose fruit is pain, whose future is rebirth, decay and death. Thus, friends, one is lustful. And how, friends, is one free from lust? Herein, friends, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, is not attached to objects that charm, nor averse from objects that displease.... Tasting a savour with the tongue...with mind cognizing a mind-state, he is not attached to mind-states that charm, nor is he averse from mind-states that displease, but dwells with mindfulness of the body, his thought is boundless. So that he realizes in its true nature that emancipation of heart, that emancipation of wisdom, wherein those evil, unprofitable states that have arisen come to cease without remainder. This monk, friends, is called 'not lustful after objects cognizable by the eye... not lustful after mind-states cognizable by mind.' Thus dwelling, friends, if Mara come upon him by way of the eye, of the tongue,... of the mind, Mara gets no access, gets no opportunity.... Moreover, friends, so dwelling a monk conquers objects, objects do not conquer him. He conquers sounds, scents, savours, tangibles, mind-states. They do not conquer him. Such a monk, friends, is called, 'conquerer of objects, sounds, scents, savours, tangibles and mind-states,'; He is conquerer, not conquered. He conquers those evil, unprofitable states, passion-fraught, inciting to lust, leading to rebirth, states unhappy, whose fruit is pain, rebirth, decay and death. Thus, friends, is one free from lust.” ***** Please let me know if you still disagree with any of the points discussed. I'd be glad to see any of your references or quotes for further consideration. Mike might have more to add too;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Mike, thanks for your other feedback. You were right to pick me up on the detail. ========================= 28022 From: Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:40am Subject: Re: Grasping at mind states Hi Herman and all, Herman, long time no write. :-) You wrote: > Going Forth (Pabbajja) - A Call to Buddhist Monkhood by Sumana > Samanera > > For those inclined to do so, read the whole lot, I found it very > worthwhile. For those under constraints, do a search on "Dear Mr. > N., " and read that section. I read just the "Dear…" part, and assuming that the views expressed by the author of this essay coincides with your own, and that I have more or less understood what you both are saying, here are some general comments. The author seems to believe as many do, that `panna' is the end result of some kind of formal practice. The assumption is that `concentration' is to be developed as a means to penetrate the nature of experiences resulting in the direct perception of the tilakkhana. I think this is to be taking the Buddha's teaching on the Tilakkhana as something which can be penetrated without the need to understand cittas and cetasikas as when they are conditioned to arise. When one has this approach, then very likely one is attached to result (in this case direct perception of the tilakkhana) and so cannot help but project the phenomena into one's experience. But this is *not* the development of panna. Panna is developed not by concentration practices, if indeed the jhana practitioner has a good chance of reaching vipassana; I think it is due not to the power of concentration, but his understanding of kusala and akusala. Only panna can accumulate as sankhara for more panna to arise in the future. And the kind of panna taught by the Buddha is the one which begins with Pariyatti. Patipatti and pativedha follows upon this. There is no other way. Certainly it is not developed by "just sitting" and concentrating on the breath, or even *intending* to observe rise and fall. The "Self" says, 1. persistence; 2. persistence; 3. persistence", but the `self' is what obstructs any chance of experiencing things as they are. Because it will see what it wants to and will get what it seeks, given that `ignorance' takes `concepts' as object, and concepts are the `illusions' which we are forever indulging in, we will rest happy with the `story' of anicca, dukkha and anatta mistaking it for direct `insight'. This reminds me of a comment in another post in which you rejected the classification of nama and rupa but insisted that "There is experience". I wonder if the above observation is a result of insight or is it a conclusion made from previous conclusion on and on, and which is probably no different from anyone's observation be they Buddhists or not? It is so easy to infer `experience', but *do you know it*? The nama and rupa classification which you reject is part of a Teaching which show that knowing the "knowing element" (nama) as distinct from "the known element" (rupa) can only be at a very high stage of development. You and I will have to just accept the "theory" that this is so, and no matter what we would like to think and how strongly we feel `confidence' that something is the case, "doubt" will forever rule. So is there `experience' as in direct knowing, or is there only `inferring' that it is so? ;-) And if this is the case, with just nama and rupa, how much more so should we be careful about our experience of anicca, dukkha and anatta?! When the author of the above mentioned article makes the final conclusion, ""Not I (an abiding individuality) breathe, but breathing occurs; not I go, but going occurs; not I stand, but standing occurs; not I sit, but sitting occurs; not I lie down, but lying down occurs; not I look, but looking occurs; not I bend, but bending occurs;….."" Do you see that he is just replacing one kind of concept with another, here the `I' is replaced by `breathing', `going', `standing' etc. and both of these are equally unreal? There is no reality such as `sitting', `lying down' etc. Seeing this does not lead to understanding of `not-self', though perhaps `not-I', but this is not what is meant by `anatta'. In fact it increases `atta sanna' and not does lead to `selflessness' as the author claims. Elsewhere you mentioned about being in a state of `no thought' and that it is probably better not to say anything at all when trying to understand and direct one's mind to experiences. I believe that vitakka arises with almost all mind moments, and what you see as being without `mental chatter' is just the replacement of one kind of chatter with another, only having a different object, perhaps the `concept of breath'. The `big smile' on a meditators face may be papanca associated with lobha of a very high degree. You then asked: > I seriously wonder to what extent that particular understanding of > the teachings that militates against directed activity is intended > to keep samsara an attractive proposition. > > Isn't it a self-concept that lies at the source of the studious > avoidance of anything that could be interpreted as originating from > a self-concept? It can no doubt be so, but I would like to think that it is usually not the case. I know Sarah for example; her panna is so sharp that she detects the `self' talking long before I can do so, if ever. In my case it is not so much speaking from a `position', but rather `recognizing' the fact. Herman, I believe "views" are behind all our choices, and given that we have accumulated so much `wrong view' from don't know when, I think it is wise to carefully consider what the Buddha taught and not too quickly jump to conclusions. The `conceptual construct' which you have tried to warn everyone against, is *not* necessarily a hindrance, but rather one that is meant to replace our own underlying views that which we are often not aware of. And this is one good reason why I think we are all doing the right thing, engaging in discussions. It is the only way to straighten out one's views. > Peace, love and joy Hesitatingly I ask Herman, what do you mean by these three words…..? I ask because you talk against `conceptual frameworks' yet you use these so easily. > Herman Metta, Sukin. 28023 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Herman --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi TG and everyone, > > I am taking a shine to the conditions that led to the writing of > this post. ... If only I could grasp at and hold those conditions. I know what you mean. I would go even further and say, 'If only I could grasp at and hold those conditions...and make them MINE!' Jon PS I, too, appreciated TG's post, especially where he said: > > ... No matter how good the > > term is, its still fraught with notions of essence, entity, etc. > > > > Even when a "bare ingredient" such as "firmness" is > conceptualized, I think > > we cannot help but impart a sense of "entity" to it. > > > > So what can be done is to use the best term possible and be > mindful that even > > its conceptualization is delusive. 28024 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Herman --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Christine, Come on, Herman. Talk about an experiment tailored to give the desired outcome ;-)). <<< Take an object, any object. Let any thoughts about the object go. Then become angry about the object. Were you able to feel angry at will? Let the anger go. Now feel happy about the object. Were you able to feel happy at will? Try applying different mindstates. Does it work? >>> Firstly, is it really anger (or feeling happy), or is it an approximation of how you feel when angry? Secondly, did it happen at will, or did it take some willing (if you see what I mean)? Finally, and more importantly, couldn’t the ease with which dosa or happy feeling is aroused be accounted for by the fact that we have so much accumulated dosa and attachment that these are ready to bubble forth at the slightest opportunity, almost *as if* their arising was subject to our control. A better experiment would surely be: how often in a day do anger and attachment arise; when they are arising, can they be made to *not* arise with the same ease as you suggest they can be aroused? <<< Clearly, feelings are not linked to objects. Feelings are linked to intention. >>> Hmm, weren't you suggesting in an earlier post that keeping the eyes shut would be one way of preventing clinging to visible-object arising (clinging being one of the main sources of 'happy feeling' in our lives)? This seems to suggest that feeling is very closely linked to the experiencing of objects (among other things, of course), wouldn't you say? Jon PS <<< If you find that you can intend, while a book is telling you that you can't, perhaps you should intend to put the book down :-) >>> I have never read a book that suggests I can't intend. That would be a pretty odd assertion What book do you have in mind here? 28025 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 5:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Michael Thank you for your reply and your clear explanation of your thinking on these points. I am going to look for some relevant references in the texts, because I think that is the only way to discuss the questions meaningfully. I find that discussing another person's opinion on the texts to be not very productive, because it is easy to get sidetracked into a discussion of what the other person really meant by when they said what they did, when in fact the real issue is what the text writers meant when they said what they did. In the meantime, I'd like to respond on 1 or 2 of your comments. --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Jon, Michael: ... In my view the Pali commentators really regarded dhammas as paramatha/sabhava and the reason I believe that is the strong reaction against those ideas that was engendered by the early Mahayana commentators, in particular Nagarjuna. And that reaction was so strong that reading Nagarjuna’s writings today it is very easy to interpret them as nihilistic. But taken in context one can understand why he wrote them like that. One should also keep in mind the interpretations of modern Theravada commentators which clearly read paramatha/sabhava as truly existent, within a context of substantiality. Jon: I'm sure that there was wrong view on someone's part here, but the question is, on whose ;-)). I don’t think a reaction such as you describe here can be taken as indicative one way or the other. As I say, I think this can only be determined by looking at the texts. (I'm not sure I understand the significance of your reference to modern commentators.) Michael: I also don’t agree with your argument that dhammas are not capable of further reduction but, would rather argue that they are capable of further reduction, but it is not necessary to do so in order to see the nature of things as they are, i.e., viewing the 3 characteristics of the aggregates with proper insight is enough for liberation, one does not have to dwell deeper. But that doesn’t mean this is not possible. I would rather say that the development of the path is the understanding of these dhammas because that is the most practical, not that it is the only possibility. Jon: Interesting. What further reduction of dhammas would you see as being possible? What other possibilities do you refer to in your last sentence? Michael: ...I would prefer to say that features are due to the regularity of the dhamma. It is not something intrinsic to the dhamma but when that dhamma arises with its characteristics, both due to causes and conditions, the feature of regularity makes that dhamma have that characteristic. And because of regularity we are mistaken to take that characteristic as unique, being part of the essence of that dhamma. Jon: This notion of regularity is new to me. Would you mind explaining a little. How does it apply as regards the unique characteristic of, say, seeing consciousness or visible-object? Thanks. Jon 28026 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexperienced rupas Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Howard: With regard to the question <>, my answer is no, I'm not saying that. There is no requirement for the existence of something that it be directly and immediately knowable. What I do consider to be a *pragmatic* requirement is that it be possible, in principle, to be directly known and not merely inferred. Now, what is directly known is an arammana. Whatever is not an arammana, if such exists, is not knowable, but merely inferable. Jon: Right, whatever is not arammana of the moment (or an attribute of it) is not knowable at that moment, but merely inferable. But this applies equally as regards both the existence *and* the non-existence of unexperienced rupas. So I would be interested to know on what basis you are happy to assert their non-existence but reluctant to even countenance their existence. Howard: A "thing" underlying (somewhere) experienced hardness *may* exist, but that existence is not knowable - it is merely inferable if one feels the need to infer it. I don't feel that need. Jon: No one is suggesting any "thing" underlying experienced hardness. You seem to be saying that the existence of unexperienced rupas imputes the existence of an underlying "thing", while the existence of experienced rupas carries no such implication. What is your thinking here? Howard: I go along with the Buddha when he said, to paraphrase, "In the seen let there be just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the sensed just the sensed, and in the cognized just the cognized." Jon: Right. The realities of this moment. So any concept of the existence or non-existence of unexperienced rupas is just a moment of thinking. Jon 28027 From: Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sounds - heard and unheard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/16/03 3:38:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard &All, > > Discussing Vism quotes reminded me of your thread with Jon on unknown > rupas. I’ll stick to unknown sounds for now. A couple of points you wrote > are these: > > >Howard: > Unheard sound, except in physics theory (a conventional model) and > commonsense (a conventional model), is unknown and unknowable, and is, to > me, meaningless.< > > >Howard: You seem to be saying that unobserved rupas occur in > "Rupaville"! ;-)< > ..... > I wonder if any of these recent quotes from the Vism threads have been of > any interest/assistance in clarifying. > > 1. Note 22 to Vism X1V,46 from Pm 446-7 > > "Are not the sounds of washermen [beating their washing on stones] heard > later by those who stand at a distance? No; because there is a difference > in the way of apprehending a sound according to the ways in which it > becomes evident to one nearby and to one at a distance. For just as, > because of difference in the way of apprehending the sound of words > according to the way in which it becomes evident to one at a distance and > to one nearby, there comes to be [respectively] not apprehending, and > apprehending, of the differences in the syllables, so also, when the sound > of washermen (a) becomes [an occurrence] that is evident throughout from > beginning to end to one who is nearby, and (b) becomes an occurrence that > is evident in compressed form in the end or in the middle to one who is at > a distance, it is because there is a difference in the apprehending and > definition, which occur later in the cognitive series of > ear-consciousness, that there comes to be the assumption (abhimaana) > "Heard faintly is heard later". But that sound comes into the ear's focus > at the moment of its own existence and in dependence on the place where it > arises (see Ch. XIII, par.112; DhsA.313). If there is absolutely no > successive becoming of sound, how does an echo arise? The sound, though it > remains at a distance, is a condition for the arising of an echo and for > the vibration of vessels, etc., elsewhere as a magnet (ayo-kanta) is for > the movement of iron' (Pm. 446-47)." > ============================ I'm not quite clear on the point being made by B, but I do have a couple comments. At the end he says: "If there is absolutely no successive becoming of sound, how does an echo arise? The sound, though it remains at a distance, is a condition for the arising of an echo and for the vibration of vessels, etc., elsewhere as a magnet (ayo-kanta) is for the movement of iron' (Pm. 446-47)." Now, here, he seems to answering a typical eternalist-oriented question by the appropriate Buddhist response: The later sound, heard by the people at a distance, arises conditioned by the earlier sound heard by the washermen. This I agree with. My phenomenalism is not a solipsism. It is very similar to William James', with mindstreams not isolated, but interacting, not unlike the "Indra's Net" metaphor of Mahayana (but applied differently). In any case, as far as I'm concerned, the sound resulting from the actions of, and heard by, the washermen, is not the same as the sound heard slightly later by those at a distance, but it conditions that later sound. Actually, the objectivist-materialist theories of physics assert the same. Now, the first part of B's material is unclear to me. Specifically the following: <> For me, what is apprehended by person B, even when corresponding to what is apprehended by A (e.g., two people looking at "the same" tree, or listening to "the same" sound), is never one and the same. Also, a condition which differs from another in *any* way (including time or context of occurrence), even in the same mindstream, while possibly conditioning or being conditioned by the other condition, is not identical with it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28028 From: Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Jon (and Michael) - In a message dated 12/16/03 8:34:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Michael: > ... In my view the Pali commentators really regarded dhammas as > paramatha/sabhava and the reason I believe that is the strong > reaction against those ideas that was engendered by the early > Mahayana commentators, in particular Nagarjuna. And that reaction was > so strong that reading Nagarjuna’s writings today it is very easy to > interpret them as nihilistic. But taken in context one can understand > why he wrote them like that. One should also keep in mind the > interpretations of modern Theravada commentators which clearly read > paramatha/sabhava as truly existent, within a context of > substantiality. > > Jon: > I'm sure that there was wrong view on someone's part here, but the > question is, on whose ;-)). I don’t think a reaction such as you > describe here can be taken as indicative one way or the other. As I > say, I think this can only be determined by looking at the texts. > (I'm not sure I understand the significance of your reference to > modern commentators.) > ========================== I could, of course, be way wrong, but my understanding is that the perfection of wisdom suttas of early Mahayana, and the work of Nagarjuna, were responses not to Theravada, but to the Sarvastivada and Sautrantika schools which were seriously infected by substantialism-eternalism and annihilationism. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28029 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 9:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Jon, Jon: MB: should also keep in mind the interpretations of modern Theravada commentators which clearly read paramatha/sabhava as truly existent, within a context of substantiality. J: I'm not sure I understand the significance of your reference to modern commentators. Michael: I was thinking about the opinions expressed by Bhikkhu Bodhi in the Introduction to the ‘Abhdhammattha Sangaha,’ and in the Introduction to ‘Abhidhamma Studies’ by Nyanaponika Thera. Wouldn’t you agree that he is a well respected modern Theravada scholar? Jon: What further reduction of dhammas would you see as being possible? What other possibilities do you refer to in your last sentence? Michael: If one regards the dhammas as a collection of conditions, and one can see that there is a ‘higer’ level of a collection of conditions, which conventionally we call a person, then one can infer that there must be a ‘lower’ level of a collection of conditions below the dhammas. Of course if one assumes the dhammas to be ultimate reality then this will not be acceptable. I don’t think dhammas are paramatha, that is not what I read in the suttas. Jon: This notion of regularity is new to me. Would you mind explaining a little. How does it apply as regards the unique characteristic of, say, seeing consciousness or visible-object? Michael: To use a simple illustration, imagine the leaves of the trees turning yellow in the Fall, this happens due to a series of causes and conditions, and the yellow color, which is the characteristic of the leaves in the Fall, is not intrinsic to those leaves but is a consequence of causes and conditions. Now, regularity is that those leaves will always turn yellow when those causes and conditions are present, and not due to something intrinsic in the leaves. Because every fall the leaves turn yellow an ordinary mind could attribute that characteristic to the leaves and not to the causes and conditions. Of course few people do that in relation to leaves, but with other more abstract phenomena/objects it is not difficult to attribute the characteristic as something intrinsic to that ‘thing’. Metta Michael 28030 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 9:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Howard, Howard: I could, of course, be way wrong, but my understanding is that the perfection of wisdom suttas of early Mahayana, and the work of Nagarjuna, were responses not to Theravada, but to the Sarvastivada and Sautrantika schools which were seriously infected by substantialism-eternalism and annihilationism.. Michael: I think you are right but the point is that those ideas also found their way into the Theravada commentaries. Metta Michael 28031 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness and so on..... was Re: Buddhaghosa etc Hi Howard, great ! Nina. op 15-12-2003 23:01 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: Howard wrote: > I give a couple > quotes of material from the Visudhimagga to bear this out, the first on > sunya, and the second on anatta: > > (1) In XXI, 56, there is the following: Having discerned voidness > in the six modes in this way , he discerns > it again in eight modes, that is to say: 'Materiality has no core, is > coreless, without core, as far as concerns 28032 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:09am Subject: anapanasati 7 a anapanasati 7 a The Perfection of the Seven Enlightenment Factors. Before going back to the Anapanasati Sutta, I shall say something about the seven enlightenment factors. These are part of the thirtyseven factors pertaining to enlightenment, the bodhipakkhiya dhammas. We can enumerate these as follows: the four applications of mindfulness (satipaììhånas) the four right efforts (sammå-padhånas) the four bases of success (iddhi-pådas) the five ³spiritual² faculties (indriyas) the five powers (balas) the seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhangas) the eightfold Path (ariya magga) The seven factors of enlightenment are: mindfulness, investigation of dhamma (dhamma vivaya, which is panna), energy (viriya), rapture (piti), tranquillity (passaddhi), concentration (samadhi) and equanimity (upekkha). Sati is among the factors of enlightenment and also among the indriyas, faculties, the powers, the factors of the eightfold Path. The factors of enlightenment develop together with satipatthana, mindfulness of nama and rupa. When sati is classified as indriya, the aspect of its leadership has been shown. When sati can arise at any time and at any place, in whatever circumstance, it becomes a bala, a power. I quote parts of A. Sujin¹s Dhamma in Cambodia: Nina. 28033 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:09am Subject: general notes to Tiika Hi Larry, I did no 54, visible object. After that there is only co to no 58 which I will start soon. To 60, heartbase, there is a long, long note. Heavy stuff. Is it a good idea for you to present that in sections, otherwise too long for the readers? I can try to make additional explanations to each section. Also using U Narada, Guide to Conditional Relations. Nina. 28034 From: Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 0:43pm Subject: Re: general notes to Tiika Hi Nina, I will go ahead and post thru par. 57. B. ~Nanamoli has translated notes to paragraphs 58, 59, 60, 61 & 62. Notes on 60 & 61 are both very long. I haven't read them yet but if possible I will break them down by points being discussed. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > I did no 54, visible object. After that there is only co to no 58 which I > will start soon. > To 60, heartbase, there is a long, long note. Heavy stuff. Is it a good idea > for you to present that in sections, otherwise too long for the readers? I > can try to make additional explanations to each section. Also using U > Narada, Guide to Conditional Relations. > Nina. 28035 From: Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:23pm Subject: Re: Question on ego and self .. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi RobM (& James), > > I meant to check a bit more on the SPECT scan study, but only just got > round to it. > --- robmoult wrote: > > > The area of the brain in question (Orientation Association Area) has > > the role of collecting sensory data and organizing it around > > a "self". A significantly decreased blood flow to that specific > > portion of the brain would correspond to a decreased sense of "self" > > as something separate from the surroundings. > > > > Depending on one's religious inclinations, one could describe this > > sensation as: > > - Being at one with the universe > > - Talking to God > > - Perceiving anatta > .... > OR a decreased spatial orientation. From what I recall from the Brain > series and other studies, those without or severely reduced idea of > spatial orientation are not necessarily wiser in any way, but find it very > difficult to function. This may also explain symptoms such as dizziness, > loss of balance, rocking etc, common amongst intense meditators. I'd be > interested to know whether there is a correlation between reduced blood > pressure also and the spatial disorientation, because those of us with low > blood pressure tend to experience similar symptoms and I don't think they > make us any more enlightened either;-) > .... > > To me, the fact that these scientists have designated an area that > > creates a sense of self that overlays the sensory input is > > significant - this aligns well with the Buddhist view that "self" is > > only a concept. > .... > Rob, I have a number of misgivings about `these scientists'. I believe > there were fewer than 10 subjects for a start and as I've said, I think we > read the conclusions we wish into the results. James, I'd like to stress > here, that I'd be equally sceptical if the same results and conclusions > were reached after having half a dozen DSGers study Abhidhamma texts in > Pali for several hours. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they also showed > reduced blood flow to parts of the brain, spatial disorientation and so > on. I'm not questioning the particular meditation practice in this thread. > I also appreciate that your practice is very useful for you (though this > doesn't qualify you to know who has and hasn't `hit rock bottom';- )). > ..... > > I would suggest that any activity that causes a decreased blood flow > > to this portion of the brain would help one to perceive "anatta". I > > am not surprised that deep meditation can be a condition for this > > arising. I suspect that, depending on the individual, other > > conditions could also lead to a similar result. > .... > Rob, I just don't understand why you would reach this conclusion at all. > What are the conditions for understanding anatta? Surely nowhere in the > texts is there any suggestion that a decreased blood flow to any part of > the brain is one. > > (BTW, I think Dilbert/Scott Adams was just saying 'go against the flow' > and go shopping in Colombo;-) ;-)) > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s If anyone else wishes to look a little more into this study, here is a > quote (I've lost track of the source- I think the first link below) and a > couple of other links I looked at: > > >Orientation Association Area, the part of the brain which influences our > orientation in time and space. This area of the brain ( the posterior > superior parietal lobe ) encourage religious beliefs." > > The frontal lobes of the brain, which are associated with attention, > showed increased activity. They expected this, since greater concentration > and focus was essential to meditation and prayer. More surprising was > activity they observed in that area of the brain affiliated with the > Orientation Association Area, the part of the brain which influences our > orientation in time and space. This area of the brain ( the posterior > superior parietal lobe ) helps us judge up/down, forward/behind, and must > function all the time to assist movement. Newberg concluded that this > decreased activity observed in these areas of the brain was responsible > for the transcendental states experienced by the praying nuns and > meditating monks. > > http://fp.bio.utk.edu/skeptic/reviews/Newberg&DAquili.html > http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lngbrain/cglidden/parietal.html > http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro01/web3/Farrenkopf.html > ================================================================= Hi Sarah, You seem to throw out a couple of odd ideas in this post. The first odd idea is that a lot of meditation is going to result in: "dizziness, loss of balance, rocking etc, common amongst intense meditators". I have never experienced this…even during 10 day meditation retreats when I meditated practically all day. Have you ever experienced this? My meditation teacher has never experienced this and I have never heard of anyone else experiencing this. The study that you quote is very vague and silly: Who would equate a `transcendental experience' with dizziness and spatial distortion? Obviously the suggestion is that meditators can't know the difference. Maybe the Buddha didn't really become enlightened by meditating under the Bodhi tree; maybe he just got really dizzy? Do you believe that? Like I wrote before, these brain studies involve a lot of guesswork and aren't conclusive, either for or against meditation. A clash of brain research is pointless at this point. The second weird idea is your suggestion that studying the Abhidhamma (or suttas) is the equivalent of meditation. Sarah, without meditation Buddhism is nothing. Reading this and that, studying this and that, without meditation, is just the same as studying anything else. Will studying chemistry, history, philosophy, biology, or any other academic subject lead to enlightenment? No. Simply studying the dhamma will also lead a person absolutely nowhere. In support I will quote one sutta that is very specific to this (although there are many in support), from SN 1. Devatasamyutta: "[The Blessed One:] Not by mere speech nor solely by listening Can one advance on this firm path of practice By which the wise ones, the meditators, Are released from the bondage of Mara. Truly, the wise do not pretend, For they have understood the way of the world. By final knowledge the wise are quenched: They have crossed over attachment to the world." It is not enough to read and study the Abhidhamma or the suttas, or to write posts about such, and to pretend to know things that are not truly known (and I am not accusing you specifically but people in general). The only way to truly understand the world and to have the final knowledge is, for the majority of us, to meditate. Anything else is just running in place. Metta, James 28036 From: Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:25pm Subject: Vism.XIV 54-57 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 54. 6. As regards visible data, etc., which come next, a visible datum has the characteristic of impinging on the eye. Its function is to be the objective field of eye-consciousness. It is manifested as the resort of that too. Its proximate cause is the four great primaries. And all the [following] kinds of derived materiality are the same as this. Where there is a difference we shall mention it. This [visible datum] is of various kinds as 'blue, yellow' (Dhs.617) and so on. 55. 7. Sound has the characteristic of impinging on the ear. Its function is to be the object of ear-consciousness. It is manifested as the resort of that too. It is of various kinds as 'drum sound, tabor sound' (Dhs.621) and so on. 56. 8. Odour has the characteristic of impinging on the nose. Its function is to be the object of nose-consciousness. It is manifested as the resort of that too. It is of various kinds as 'root odour, heartwood odour' (Dhs.625) and so on. 57. 9. Flavour has the characteristic of impinging on the tongue. Its function is to be the object of tongue-consciousness. It is manifested as the resort of that too. It is of various kinds as 'root flavour, trunk flavour' (Dhs.629) and so on. 28037 From: Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:56pm Subject: concept & characteristic Hi all, Would it be correct to say the object of any consciousness that is not a non-deluded consciousness is perceived as a concept because only a non-deluded consciousness (panna) is capable of correctly discerning a characteristic and any discernment other than a correct discernment is conceptual? Larry 28038 From: Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexperienced rupas Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/16/03 8:44:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Jon: > Right, whatever is not arammana of the moment (or an attribute of it) > is not knowable at that moment, but merely inferable. But this > applies equally as regards both the existence *and* the non-existence > of unexperienced rupas. So I would be interested to know on what > basis you are happy to assert their non-existence but reluctant to > even countenance their existence. > ======================= It is reasonable to attribute existence to what is observable, for its existence is verifiable by observation. What is not observable, if it existed, would have that existence be unverifiable. To me, I consider something onexistent if it is not observable. [I didn't say "not observed"; I said "not observable"] There is no limit to "possible" unexperiencable things. One of these is "the self". It is not provable that there *is* no world self, no Brahman. But it is not observable, and I do not accept its existence. As far as I am concerned, the burden of proof is for the existence of something, not its nonexistence. What is in principle unobservable can never be proved to exist. I do not accept such alleged existents. You,however, are certainly free to do so. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28039 From: Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Michael - In a message dated 12/16/03 12:48:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Howard: > I could, of course, be way wrong, but my understanding is that the > perfection of wisdom suttas of early Mahayana, and the work of Nagarjuna, > were > responses not to Theravada, but to the Sarvastivada and Sautrantika schools > which were seriously infected by substantialism-eternalism and > annihilationism.. > > Michael: > I think you are right but the point is that those ideas also found their way > > into the Theravada commentaries. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, to some extent they apparently did. Kalupahana makes that point as well. They found there way into Mahayana as well, BTW! ------------------------------------------------------- > > Metta > Michael > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28040 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 0:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi James, --- buddhatrue@y... wrote: >Like I wrote before, these brain studies involve a > lot of guesswork and aren't conclusive, either for or against > meditation. A clash of brain research is pointless at this point. .... I agree and I’m sure I’ve said too much already on this subject. .... >Sarah, without > meditation Buddhism is nothing. <...> We all agree that mere book study, Abhidhamma theory and so on are of no use without development of wisdom and other path factors. As for meditation, it depends what is meant. ..... >In support I > will quote one sutta that is very specific to this (although there > are many in support), from SN 1. Devatasamyutta: > > "[The Blessed One:] > Not by mere speech nor solely by listening > Can one advance on this firm path of practice > By which the wise ones, the meditators, > Are released from the bondage of Mara. > > Truly, the wise do not pretend, > For they have understood the way of the world. > By final knowledge the wise are quenched: > They have crossed over attachment to the world." .... Good quote and I’m happy to discuss the sutta (SN 1, 35(5) Faultfinders, Bodhi transl). What is meant by meditation and meditators in the suttas? Often these words are translations of jhaayatha(develop samatha and insight) and so on. I expect that ‘meditator’ here is a translation of jhaayi (the one who develops samatha and insight). The emphasis in context is very much on insight and understanding ‘the way of the world’. [Aside: Before the Buddha spoke these verses, the fault-finding devatas had suggested: “If one shows oneself in one way While actually being otherwise, What one enjoys is obtained by theft Like the gains of a cheating gambler.” and “One should speak as one would act; Don’t speak as one wouldn’t act The wise clearly discern the person Who does not practise what he preaches.” The Buddha’s response stresses understanding, insight and truth and later forgiveness rather than mere speech and listening as the devata suggests. I’d be interested to hear any further comments on this.] .... > It is not enough to read and study the Abhidhamma or the suttas, or > to write posts about such, and to pretend to know things that are not > truly known (and I am not accusing you specifically but people in > general). .... You’ve hinted at this before, James. It would be more useful if you indicate examples or comments for further discussion if you are referring to anything I’ve indicated or ‘people in general’ here. Otherwise it’s difficult to respond. In my case, I can assure you that any panna is extremely blunt and there is just enough to have confidence that the texts (inc. Abhidhamma and commentaries) are correct and very little more. In any case, any knowledge, ignorance or pretence is anatta - not mine or yours or Sukin’s -- and certainly not worthy of any comparisons --;-) .... >The only way to truly understand the world and to have the > final knowledge is, for the majority of us, to meditate. Anything > else is just running in place. ..... So as you argued to Victor (the post I agreed with), what is right will lead to more right. So what is right meditation at this very moment as you read this post? Metta, Sarah ====== 28041 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:29am Subject: JOY! (was New member, Jeff Brooks) Hi Michael, We were discussing joy or rapture (piti) I gave this link and meant to add a little more: http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas13.html --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael: > Sarah, I have a question, I always thought that piti, which is a > physical > sensation, is a jhana factor, it only arises with jhana. But as I read > what > you say, piti can also arise in mundane activities? Can you please > explain? ..... As Nina starts off by saying in ‘Cetasikas’, piti can be kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya (wholesome,unwholesome,result or inoperative). Of course it is more likely to be akusala as attachment with joy and enthusiasm is so common. Whenever there is pleasant feeling there is piti. It has the characteristic of satisfaction (sampiyaayana), whether it is kusala citta with piti, eg accompanying metta or dana or akusala citta with piti, eg accompanying attachment. Of course, the nature of kusala and akusala piti is different, just as the pleasant feelings are different. It’s difficult to know the differences and intensities vary for both and they can follow each other very closely. Whilst reading a sutta, we might assume the joy is kusala, but only sati can be aware and panna can know at anytime whether it’s kusala or akusala at the present moment. The same applies to other mundane activities which we might assume to be skilful. One of the 24 conditions is jhana condition and the cetasikas which condition by way of jhana-factors can be kusala or akusala. These are referred to in the Dhammasangani. Dhsg 397a, Summary under Bad States of Consciousness -accompanied by pleasant feeling and ditthi (wrong view): "Now, on that occasion the khandhas are four, the spheres are two, the elements are two, the nutriments are three, the faculties are five the Jhana is fivefold,[i.e vitakka, vicara,piti, sukha, samadhi] the Path is fourfold, the powers are four, the causes are two, [lobha and moha] Nina also gives a useful summary of jhana condition in her book, ‘Conditions’ which I highly recommend. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ I think that when we understand how factors such as pleasant feeling and joy arise so often in a day with attachment, it becomes more and more obvious how so much of what we have taken for being ‘good’ and ‘noble’, such as the feelings associated with tranquil walks in the forest, yoga practice, sutta reading, meditation, playing with children or any other activity need to really be understood and known when they arise. There is no suggestion here that any of our activities should change, but any increase in understanding and decrease in delusion is very precious. Any comments? Metta, Sarah ===== 28042 From: Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:08am Subject: Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi James, Hi Sarah! Sarah: We all agree that mere book study, Abhidhamma theory and so on are of no use without development of wisdom and other path factors. As for meditation, it depends what is meant. James: Of course I mean Buddhist meditation. Meditation as taught by Lord Buddha: Samatha (Calmness) and Insight (Vipassana). Sometimes one is developed before the other, sometimes they are developed in tandem. Later on you explain this so I don't understand what the question is. Surely you don't think I am referring to a different type of meditation, like Chakra meditation. ..... >In support I > will quote one sutta that is very specific to this (although there > are many in support), from SN 1. Devatasamyutta: > > "[The Blessed One:] > Not by mere speech nor solely by listening > Can one advance on this firm path of practice > By which the wise ones, the meditators, > Are released from the bondage of Mara. > > Truly, the wise do not pretend, > For they have understood the way of the world. > By final knowledge the wise are quenched: > They have crossed over attachment to the world." .... Sarah: Good quote and I'm happy to discuss the sutta (SN 1, 35(5) Faultfinders, Bodhi transl). What is meant by meditation and meditators in the suttas? James: See above comments. Sarah: Often these words are translations of jhaayatha(develop samatha and insight) and so on. I expect that `meditator' here is a translation of jhaayi (the one who develops samatha and insight). The emphasis in context is very much on insight and understanding `the way of the world'. James: Right, through meditation. Talking and listening to the dhamma (or reading the dhamma in present day) isn't enough. The mind must be developed through Buddhist meditation. That is what the sutta is explaining. By the rewards are the deeds known. [Aside: Before the Buddha spoke these verses, the fault-finding devatas had suggested: "If one shows oneself in one way While actually being otherwise, What one enjoys is obtained by theft Like the gains of a cheating gambler." and "One should speak as one would act; Don't speak as one wouldn't act The wise clearly discern the person Who does not practise what he preaches." Sarah: The Buddha's response stresses understanding, insight and truth and later forgiveness rather than mere speech and listening as the devata suggests. I'd be interested to hear any further comments on this.] James: I don't really have any. I didn't include the first part because I wanted to focus on the relevant part, but it still doesn't change the message. I didn't take anything out of context. The Buddha states that meditation is the key factor to insight and to knowing who has insight. .... > It is not enough to read and study the Abhidhamma or the suttas, or > to write posts about such, and to pretend to know things that are not > truly known (and I am not accusing you specifically but people in > general). .... You've hinted at this before, James. It would be more useful if you indicate examples or comments for further discussion if you are referring to anything I've indicated or `people in general' here. Otherwise it's difficult to respond. In my case, I can assure you that any panna is extremely blunt and there is just enough to have confidence that the texts (inc. Abhidhamma and commentaries) are correct and very little more. In any case, any knowledge, ignorance or pretence is anatta - not mine or yours or Sukin's -- and certainly not worthy of any comparisons --;-) James: I do not wish to be more specific at this time. You can simply choose to ignore my comments if you think they are unfounded or don't understand. .... >The only way to truly understand the world and to have the > final knowledge is, for the majority of us, to meditate. Anything > else is just running in place. ..... So as you argued to Victor (the post I agreed with), what is right will lead to more right. So what is right meditation at this very moment as you read this post? James: I am assuming that you are asking how to be meditating while I am reading this post (if not, I apologize). Answer: Meditating is bringing the mind repeatedly to one subject or object, which cannot be done while reading a post. Metta, Sarah ====== Metta, James 28043 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sounds - heard and unheard Hi Howard, In spite of all your protestations to the contrary, I think you’re a ‘natural’ when it comes to the Abhidhamma. You (Larry and others too of course) raise some very fine detail which I find most helpful to reflect on. Your post here is a good example;-): --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > I'm not quite clear on the point being made by B, but I do have a > > couple comments. At the end he says: "If there is absolutely no > successive > becoming of sound, how does an echo arise? ..... S: You know, I hesitated to include the last few lines from the comy (Pm) on this and was hoping you wouldn’t ask;-) My reason for the quotes was merely to address the issue of the arising and falling of sounds not experienced. Anyway, let’s continue: ..... Pm:>The sound, though it remains > at a > distance, is a condition for the arising of an echo and for the > vibration of vessels, > etc., elsewhere as a magnet (ayo-kanta) is for the movement of iron' > (Pm. > 446-47)." <...> H: >In any > case, as > far as I'm concerned, the sound resulting from the actions of, and heard > by, > the washermen, is not the same as the sound heard slightly later by > those at a > distance, but it conditions that later sound. .... S: I think the echo case is different from the washermen sounds with no echo. ... H: >Actually, the > objectivist-materialist theories of physics assert the same. > Now, the first part of B's material is unclear to me. > Specifically the > following: Pm: > < stones] > heard > later by those who stand at a distance? No; because there is a > difference in > the way of apprehending a sound according to the ways in which it > becomes > evident to one nearby and to one at a distance. .... S: For example, we know (from Abhidhamma) that a rupa lasts 17x as long as a citta and the way a rupa is apprehended will be determined by when the rupa is experienced for a start. This will affect how clearly it is percieved, whether it will be experienced by the following mind door process and so on as I understand. RobM is good on this detail. I’d need to check to say more. Just as an example, if the sound is heard just at the end of its span (incredibly fast as we know), there will be no registering consciousness and succeeding mind door process. ..... Pm: >For just as, because of > difference > in the way of apprehending the sound of words according to the way in > which > it becomes evident to one at a distance and to one nearby, there comes > to be > [respectively] not apprehending, and apprehending, of the differences in > the > syllables, so also, when the sound of washermen (a) becomes [an > occurrence] that > is evident throughout from > beginning to end to one who is nearby, and (b) becomes an occurrence > that is > evident in compressed form in the end or in the middle to one who is at > a > distance, it is because there is a difference in the apprehending and > definition, > which occur later in the cognitive series of ear-consciousness, that > there > comes to be the assumption (abhimaana) "Heard faintly is heard later".>> .... S: This is my point - remember a sound is just a rupa and so it depends how it is heard (or whether heard at all) by the ear door process as to how it will be perceived. ..... H: > For me, what is apprehended by person B, even when corresponding > to > what is apprehended by A (e.g., two people looking at "the same" tree, > or > listening to "the same" sound), is never one and the same. .... S: Exactly, as we also discussed in the inherent nature of rupas/pig dung thread. ..... H: >Also, a > condition which > differs from another in *any* way (including time or context of > occurrence), > even in the same mindstream, while possibly conditioning or being > conditioned by > the other condition, is not identical with it. .... S: I fully agree with this too. We get just a hint of how very complicated conditions are. Last Saturday evening there was a young couple have a very loud argument outside our window. There was a lot of hearing of loud sounds, lots of annoyance, a little compassion and then a strange thing happened. I started looking up some sutta references, became pretty engrossed in them and for about half an hour there was no idea about any loud noises outside. Whether there was less hearing of them as it seemed, I couldn’t be sure, but certainly no conditions to think about that particular story even though the couple were still arguing loudly. Metta, Sarah ======= 28044 From: Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:43am Subject: Re: characteristics Hi Ken, Thanks for your reply. My comments are interspersed below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > ------------ > H: > Your well-written paragraphs above are traceable as > reflecting the views held by certain groups in a certain > sub-continent at a certain time. > > ------------ > > Thanks for the compliment. I am quite confident that the > views of those 'certain groups' were the teaching of the > Buddha. > I think your initial point was that whatever kusala/akusala is, it is not dependent on any point of view. You now happily acknowledge the source of your point of view re kusala/akusala :-) > ------------ > H: > There is no time and no place, however, in which an > absolute morality can exist. Morality is always yoked to > meaning which is always yoked to intention. > ------------ > > Have you given up on there being a reality beyond the > conventional? Do you think the ordinary, run-of-the-mill > many-folk had it right all along? Ken, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean here. I could reply to my guesses at your meaning and write an essay for no good reason. Happy to discuss this further if you want to clarify. > --------------- > . . . > H: > Ken, to me the above paragraph is a retelling of a > story I have heard many a time. And you have retold it > faithfully. And that sounds condescending. And I don't > intend that. > --------------- > > Keep an open mind; if the story is true, it would be a > shame to reject it. > The story that is apparent to me when I read just about any sutta is that the Buddha was a man who realised that all phenomena are dukkha, and for this reason was, as far as humanly possible, bodily and mentally a non-participant in the affairs of the world. There is no need to keep an open mind about it, it is bleeding obvious. The Buddha, by way of example, advocated abstaining from unnecessary action, word and thought. Those in his company were convinced to do likewise. It appears from the Buddha's example that quietness, quietude, quietanything has something going for it. Do you dispute that? Peace love and joy Herman > ---------------- > H: > I ask my kids at the dinner table "What is there > when there is no thinking?". They say I'm nuts. I'm quite > happy with that. > --------------- > > A mental process with no thinking is a rare thing -- a > state of jhana absorbtion. In satipatthana, however, > there is thinking (right thinking). > > No one could blame you for liking to sit quietly and > enjoy the feeling of doing so. It doesn't stop you from > learning Dhamma. Have you convinced yourself that > sitting quietly is the Dhamma? That would be a big > mistake, I think. :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H 28045 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:19am Subject: Medicine Dear Dhamma Friends, As you will notice, most medicine are not sweet but bitter and hard to manage to swallow especially before modern time when herbal medicine had been practising. Why this has been happening is evident that people are fond of sweet. They do not like bitter taste. But when they realize that they have a disease ( suffering ), they will take that bitter medicine in order to recover from the disease. Unfortunately, when they cannot realize that they have a disease, they will not search for treatment. So, they will not take that awful bitter tasted medicine. This is my life. I have to feel this and that. I have the right to experience all these. After death there is nothing. So why must we waste time taking that bitter medicine? ( annihilistic view ). This is my life. I achieve this and that. There definitely is next lives. I will be a Deva, Brahma, human being, and so on. Even though I had died in many previous lives, my spirit still does not die. It will shift from life to life. My spirit lives forever. We are suffering in lower realms. If we are in higher realm, we will be free of suffering and we will live there forever. ( eternity view ). As they do not realize that they are suffering, they will not take medicine. Their origional practice is different. So when they face with Dhamma ( teaching of The Buddha ), they are reluctant to take that. Their habits hinder them in learning and practising Dhamma. May all beings use their time effectively With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing JourneyToNibbana htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@g... 28046 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi James, Thanks for your quick response! I appreciate the feedback. --- buddhatrue@y... wrote: > James: Of course I mean Buddhist meditation. Meditation as taught by > Lord Buddha: Samatha (Calmness) and Insight (Vipassana). Sometimes > one is developed before the other, sometimes they are developed in > tandem. Later on you explain this so I don't understand what the > question is. Surely you don't think I am referring to a different > type of meditation, like Chakra meditation. .... OK, so far so very good! ..... > James: Right, through meditation. Talking and listening to the > dhamma (or reading the dhamma in present day) isn't enough. The mind > must be developed through Buddhist meditation. That is what the > sutta is explaining. By the rewards are the deeds known. .... 'Through Buddhist meditation' aka: Samatha (Calmness) and Insight (Vipassana) as agreed. ..... > James: I don't really have any. I didn't include the first part > because I wanted to focus on the relevant part, but it still doesn't > change the message. I didn't take anything out of context. The > Buddha states that meditation is the key factor to insight and to > knowing who has insight. .... That’s fine, no suggestion of being out of context. I was getting side-tracked and thinking about another thread too. To be precise, the Buddha states that the path of practice (pa.tipada ) is the key factor to insight. In Sukin’s post to Herman he wrote: Sukin: “Only panna can accumulate as sankhara by the Buddha is the one which begins with Pariyatti (rt theoretical understanding). Patipatti (rt practice) and pativedha (direct realization) follows upon this. There is no other way.” (my bracketed translation of terms). .... > James: I do not wish to be more specific at this time. You can > simply choose to ignore my comments if you think they are unfounded > or don't understand. .... ;-) I’d rather just confess to any transgressions and apologise. .... > James: I am assuming that you are asking how to be meditating while I > am reading this post (if not, I apologize). Answer: Meditating is > bringing the mind repeatedly to one subject or object, which cannot > be done while reading a post. .... Now we get to the real heart of the matter. By path of practice and development of insight (or even calm), is there any suggestion in this sutta or others which you’re reading in Devatasamyutta that it can and should be at anytime other than the present moment or by ‘bringing the mind repeatedly to one subject or object’? Surely the practice can only ever be now? I had a little difficulty finding your quotation at first and in the process was enjoying skimming through one or two of the earlier ones as I looked for it. The one before is ‘There Are No’ (SN 1 -34 (4), Bodhi transl). [the Blessed One] “They are not sense pleasures,the world’s pretty things: Man’s sensuality is the intention of lust. The pretty things remain as they are in the world But the wise remove the desire for them. “One should discard anger, cast off conceit, Transcend all the fetters. No sufferings torment one who has nothing, Who does not adhere to name and form [nama - rupa]” Would you say that the path of practice still cannot ‘be done’ while reading a post, at this very present moment? If there is desire, conceit or anger now, should insight wait for another more suitable occasion? James, I'm very glad to see you quoting from BB's translation of SN. It's my favourite collection of suttas and this translation is a great work. I'd be very happy to discuss any of these suttas with you anytime. It's like discovering new ones for me every time. Metta, Sarah ===== 28047 From: Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > Thanks for your quick response! I appreciate the feedback. > Would you say that the path of practice still cannot `be done' while > reading a post, at this very present moment? If there is desire, conceit > or anger now, should insight wait for another more suitable occasion? Hi Sarah, Here is another quick response! ;-) Okay, what you are suggesting Sarah is impossible. Let's do a little experiment: I will count to five and when I am done I would like for you to have discarded your anger, cast off your conceit, and transcend all the fetters. Okay, so get ready: One…Two…Three….Four…..Five! So, how did it go? Are you enlightened yet? No? Why not? The instructions were simple enough and you know what you need to do, just do it! The reason you can't do it is because your mind isn't developed enough to do it; otherwise you would have already done it. The only way to make your mind developed enough to do it is to practice Buddhist meditation. You don't agree with my definition of meditation which is "bringing the mind repeatedly to one subject or object" and you would like to know where I got that definition. Huh? That is the definition for concentration. Concentration is defined as "1 a : the act or process of concentrating : the state of being concentrated; especially : direction of attention to a single object ". And you know the Buddha taught Right Concentration. Right Concentration cannot be practiced while reading (or writing) a post. You yourself have admitted, "That's fine, no suggestion of being out of context. I was getting side-tracked and thinking about another thread too." You see, you didn't have proper concentration while you were writing that post. Right concentration cannot be developed during everyday activities to the extent that the Buddha intended. If you don't agree, okay. Metta, James 28048 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] concept & characteristic Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, > > Would it be correct to say the object of any consciousness that is > not a > non-deluded consciousness is perceived as a concept because only a > non-deluded consciousness (panna) is capable of correctly > discerning a > characteristic and any discernment other than a correct discernment > is conceptual? Good question. The answer I think depends on what you have in mind by 'perceived' here. As you know, at the very moment of experiencing a sense-door object (a vipaka citta) there is no conceptualisation of the object. However, in the subsequent mind-door processes, there is a lot of 'thinking about' the object. I believe that as regards these 'thinking' moments it would be correct to say that in the absence of sati or panna of the level of satipatthana/vipassana, there would be conceptualising about the object rather than its direct experience. Jon 28049 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. > Hi Sarah, > > Here is another quick response! ;-) .... Likewise! ;-) .... Okay, what you are suggesting > Sarah is impossible. Let's do a little experiment: I will count to > five and when I am done I would like for you to have discarded your > anger, cast off your conceit, and transcend all the fetters. Okay, > so get ready: One…Two…Three….Four…..Five! So, how did it go? .... I had a great laugh and Jon asked from another room what was going on;-) .... Are > you enlightened yet? No? Why not? ..... Anatta. No self. No control. ..... >The instructions were simple > enough and you know what you need to do, just do it! The reason you > can't do it is because your mind isn't developed enough to do it; > otherwise you would have already done it. The only way to make your > mind developed enough to do it is to practice Buddhist meditation. .... Er......for wisdom to develop, I think. Pa.tipada or path of practice as it mentioned in the sutta. No one to do anything. .... > You don't agree with my definition of meditation which is "bringing > the mind repeatedly to one subject or object" and you would like to > know where I got that definition. Huh? That is the definition for > concentration. Concentration is defined as "1 a : the act or process > of concentrating : the state of being concentrated; especially : > direction of attention to a single object ". ..... Concentration which arises at every instant with every moment of consciousness (even when wildly distracted) and which can be right and wrong, just like wise and unwise attention can be. Concentration is not the same as the development of calm and insight. .... >And you know the Buddha > taught Right Concentration. Right Concentration cannot be practiced > while reading (or writing) a post. .... Did the Buddha say there were any occasions when there couldn’t be the development of satipatthana (inc. rt concentration)? In the Satipatthana Sutta it talks about while walking, getting dressed, eating, going to the bathroom and so on. .... >You yourself have > admitted, "That's fine, no suggestion of being out of context. I was > getting side-tracked and thinking about another thread too." You > see, you didn't have proper concentration while you were writing that > post. Right concentration cannot be developed during everyday > activities to the extent that the Buddha intended. .... I protest! If it was wise reflection on the Dhamma (whatever the thread) then at the ‘wise’ moments there were rt concentration, calm and understanding, even if not any satipatthana. .... > If you don't agree, okay. .... okay. “Wisdom is the precious gem of humans” (SN1,Devatasamyutta, 52(2)) Metta, Sarah p.s I have a little experiment for you, James, and no need to count. Just consider whether there can be any useful reflection of the Dhamma whilst reading this post (whether or not you agree) or any metta or consideration of mental states or physical phenomena. If the answer is yes, it’s an indication of moments of rt concentration, calm and a level of understanding, however briefly. Whilst you’re teaching in school, having an argument, eating a snack or whatever (trying to work out the time in Egypt - another sidetrack;-)), see whether there is any understanding of any kind. SN1, Devatasamyutta,10 (10) [The Blessed One] “They do not sorrow over the past, Nor do they hanker for the future. They maintain themselves with what is present; Hence their complexion is so serene. “Through hankering for the future, Through sorrowing over the past, Fools dry up and wither away Like a green reed cut down” ===== 28050 From: Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:42am Subject: Re: characteristics Hi Herman, ----------------- H: > I think your initial point was that whatever kusala/akusala is, it is not dependent on any point of view. You now happily acknowledge the source of your point of view re kusala/akusala :-) ------------ Yes but there is no great conflict in that. Firstly, I was saying that kusala dhammas are kusala -- they have inherent, kusala properties that make them what they are. Secondly, I have gained this intellectual understanding [of the absolute nature of dhammas], from what the Buddha taught. Does the second contradict the first? I don't think so. Two posts back, you wrote: ------------- There is no time and no place, however, in which an > absolute morality can exist. Morality is always yoked to > meaning which is always yoked to intention. > -------------- to which I replied: -------------- Have you given up on there being a reality beyond the conventional? Do you think the ordinary, run-of-the-mill many-folk had it right all along? ------------ Then you replied: -------------- Ken, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean here. I could reply to my guesses at your meaning and write an essay for no good reason. Happy to discuss this further if you want to clarify. --------------- I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying there are no absolute truths: that morality always depends on personal opinions. So, I thought you were saying, by implication, that the Dhamma is the same as conventional reality. In other words, I thought you were denying that the Buddha taught anything we run-of-the-mill ordinary people didn't already know. That's a good point you make about writing an essay. If each of does his best to make himself understood, he can save the other from answering the wrong questions. :-) (I'm not good at understanding what other people are saying and I often write things that no one can understand (not even me).) Probably misunderstanding you again, I made a comment, about keeping an open mind, to which you replied: ---------------- H: > The story that is apparent to me when I read just about any sutta is that the Buddha was a man who realised that all phenomena are dukkha, and for this reason was, as far as humanly possible, bodily and mentally a non- participant in the affairs of the world. There is no need to keep an open mind about it, it is bleeding obvious. The Buddha, by way of example, advocated abstaining from unnecessary action, word and thought. Those in his company were convinced to do likewise. It appears from the Buddha's example that quietness, quietude, quietanything has something going for it. Do you dispute that? ------------- You guessed it. :-) It's not 'bleeding obvious' at all. Bodily and mental non-participation in the affairs of the world would be natural for an arahant. But that follows from enlightenment; it is not a prerequisite. I don't see any special advantage in quietness. A lively discussion about the Dhamma, for example, is preferable to staring at a wall. Kind regards, Ken H 28051 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] tanha and intention Ben Hello and welcome from me. What a blockbuster your first post is! I'd like to comment on just a part of it. --- jangchup777 wrote: << << << INTENTION Furthermore, there is something else I've been wondering about and would like to ask others about it. In dependent origination if ignornace ceases then sankharas cease. And here, in this context, sankharas mean bodily, verbal, and mental "fabrications". (SN XII.2) As I understand it, "fabrication" is volition or intention. Is this correct? But if these intentions cease it seems to me that a person would be frozen still, completely silent, and not thinking at all! How would they even determine to get up and goto the bathroom? But this is not the case because the Buddha was very active after his enlightenment. How did he act without any intentions? And Samyutta Nikaya XII.38 seems to support this view that intentions cease when it says "when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], .... there is no future birth..." and also the line of victory: "there is nothing left to do..." >> >> >> The suttas dealing with dependent origination are extremely complex and I don’t pretend to understand them. However, we are fortunate in having the commentaries to help us. In the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation of the sutta preceding this one he quotes from the commentary as explaining that these are references to nibbana (which, as I'm sure you know, is sometimes described as cessation). This I find easy to accepts since ignorance, the first link mentioned, is only finally eradicated completely on attaining arahantship. In short, there's no suggestion that intention can (or should) be made to cease! As I understand it, even the Buddha could not act without intention. Does this make sense? There's lots more to your post but I'll just go this far for now. Jon 28052 From: Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi, Sarah (and James) - Insights, let alone fruitions, rarely occur during jhanas. Sariputta seems to be a prominent possible exception. Even those who use the jhanas as vehicle for insight usually apply their investigation upon leaving a jhanic state. In many, many Zen stories, "enlightenment" (whether this be important insights or actual awakenings) occurs at ordinary times. HOWEVER, it is focussed meditation, formal samatha bhavana, that is the primary cultivational tool, on a base of calming sila, making the mind a fit, malleable instrument for the investigation of dhammas and the cultivation of insight. The Buddha put enormous emphasis on this. Your post, Sarah, to James follows below without further comment. With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/17/03 7:25:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi James, > > Thanks for your quick response! I appreciate the feedback. > > --- buddhatrue@y... wrote: > > >James: Of course I mean Buddhist meditation. Meditation as taught by > >Lord Buddha: Samatha (Calmness) and Insight (Vipassana). Sometimes > >one is developed before the other, sometimes they are developed in > >tandem. Later on you explain this so I don't understand what the > >question is. Surely you don't think I am referring to a different > >type of meditation, like Chakra meditation. > .... > OK, so far so very good! > ..... > >James: Right, through meditation. Talking and listening to the > >dhamma (or reading the dhamma in present day) isn't enough. The mind > >must be developed through Buddhist meditation. That is what the > >sutta is explaining. By the rewards are the deeds known. > .... > 'Through Buddhist meditation' aka: Samatha (Calmness) and Insight > (Vipassana) as agreed. > ..... > >James: I don't really have any. I didn't include the first part > >because I wanted to focus on the relevant part, but it still doesn't > >change the message. I didn't take anything out of context. The > >Buddha states that meditation is the key factor to insight and to > >knowing who has insight. > .... > That’s fine, no suggestion of being out of context. I was getting > side-tracked and thinking about another thread too. > > To be precise, the Buddha states that the path of practice (pa.tipada ) is > the key factor to insight. In Sukin’s post to Herman he wrote: > > Sukin: “Only panna can accumulate as sankhara by the Buddha is the one > which begins with Pariyatti (rt theoretical understanding). Patipatti (rt > practice) and pativedha (direct realization) follows upon this. There is > no other way.â€? (my bracketed translation of terms). > .... > >James: I do not wish to be more specific at this time. You can > >simply choose to ignore my comments if you think they are unfounded > >or don't understand. > .... > ;-) I’d rather just confess to any transgressions and apologise. > .... > >James: I am assuming that you are asking how to be meditating while I > >am reading this post (if not, I apologize). Answer: Meditating is > >bringing the mind repeatedly to one subject or object, which cannot > >be done while reading a post. > .... > Now we get to the real heart of the matter. By path of practice and > development of insight (or even calm), is there any suggestion in this > sutta or others which you’re reading in Devatasamyutta that it can and > should be at anytime other than the present moment or by ‘bringing the > mind repeatedly to one subject or object’? Surely the practice can only > ever be now? > > I had a little difficulty finding your quotation at first and in the > process was enjoying skimming through one or two of the earlier ones as I > looked for it. > > The one before is ‘There Are No’ (SN 1 -34 (4), Bodhi transl). > > [the Blessed One] > “They are not sense pleasures,the world’s pretty things: > Man’s sensuality is the intention of lust. > The pretty things remain as they are in the world > But the wise remove the desire for them. > > “One should discard anger, cast off conceit, > Transcend all the fetters. > No sufferings torment one who has nothing, > Who does not adhere to name and form [nama - rupa]â€? > > Would you say that the path of practice still cannot ‘be done’ while > reading a post, at this very present moment? If there is desire, conceit > or anger now, should insight wait for another more suitable occasion? > > James, I'm very glad to see you quoting from BB's translation of SN. It's > my favourite collection of suttas and this translation is a great work. > I'd be very happy to discuss any of these suttas with you anytime. It's > like discovering new ones for me every time. > > Metta, > > Sarah > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28053 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexperienced rupas Hi Howard > ======================= > It is reasonable to attribute existence to what is > observable, for its existence is verifiable by observation. What is not observable, if it existed, would have that existence be unverifiable. To me, Iconsider something onexistent if it is not observable. k: I was wondering when Buddh said there are living organism in water, was it observable at that time. Luckily it was Buddha who said it, if it happened to another person will to say it, no one will believe the person. What is not observable now does not mean it does not exist. Just like Nibbana which is not observable now, does not mean it does not exist. Just a thinker kind regards Ken O 28054 From: Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexperienced rupas Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/17/03 10:04:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > > >======================= > > It is reasonable to attribute existence to what is > >observable, for its existence is verifiable by observation. What is > not observable, if it existed, would have that existence be > unverifiable. To me, Iconsider something onexistent if it is not > observable. > > k: I was wondering when Buddh said there are living organism in > water, was it observable at that time. Luckily it was Buddha who > said it, if it happened to another person will to say it, no one will > believe the person. What is not observable now does not mean it > does not exist. Just like Nibbana which is not observable now, does > not mean it does not exist. > > > Just a thinker > > kind regards > Ken O > =========================== I take no exception to what you said here. Whatever conventional object is observable by any means (even not yet invented) is observable, and what is not is not. Ultimately, there is only one general category of "things" that are observable, namely the category of objects of consciousness. Experienced hardness is observed, and no other .. ever. Sights are observable. When they occur, they occur as objects of consciousness. Prior to that, there is only the greater or lesser potential for them. An unseen sight is never observed - it is unobservable, it doesn't exist. Where is an unseen sight? And how do we observe it? Answer: We don't observe it .. ever. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28055 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:15am Subject: anapanasati 7 b anapanasati 7 b We read in the Anapanasati Sutta, (in the translation by Ven. Nyanatiloka, but abridged): <1. On whatever occasion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world- on that occasion, unremitting mindfulness is established in him...on that occasion the mindfulness enlightenment factor is aroused in him, and he develops it, and by development it comes to perfection in him. 2. Abiding thus mindful, he investigates, examines that state with understanding, and embarks upon a scrutiny (of it)... on that occasion the investigation-of-states (dhamma vivaya) enlightenment is aroused in him, and he develops it, and by development it comes to perfection in him... 3.On whatever occasion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who investigates, examines that state (dhamma) with understanding, and embarks upon a scrutiny (of it), tireless energy is aroused... on that occasion the energy enlightenment factor is aroused in him, and he develops it, and by development it comes to perfection in him... 4. On whatever occasion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who has aroused energy, unworldly (niramisa, not involved with the senses) rapture arises... ³The body and mind of one whose mind is held in rapture, becomes tranquillized.² 5.On whatever occasion, bhikkhus, the body and mind of a bhikkhu who is held in rapture, become tranquillized- on that occasion the tranquillity enlightenment factor is aroused in him... ³The mind of one who is tranquillized in body and blissful becomes concentrated.² 6. On whatever occasion, bhikkhus, mind of a bhikkhu who is tranquillized in body and blissful becomes concentrated- on that occasion the concentration enlightenment factor is aroused in him... ³He becomes one who looks on with complete equanimity on the mind thus concentrated.² 7. On whatever occasion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu becomes one who looks on with complete equanimity on the mind thus concentrated- on that occasion the equanimity enlightenment factor is aroused in him, and he develops it, and by development it comes to perfection in him.> The same is stated with regard to the other three applications of mindfulness. Nina. 28056 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] concept & characteristic Hi Larry, Howard, Michael, op 17-12-2003 00:56 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Would it be correct to say the object of any consciousness that is not a > non-deluded consciousness is perceived as a concept because only a > non-deluded consciousness (panna) is capable of correctly discerning a > characteristic and any discernment other than a correct discernment is > conceptual? N: Larry, if I understand your question correctly, I think you mean: 1. Citta without panna and with moha only perceives concepts. 2. Only citta with panna can discern a reality (that is not concept). 3. If 2 is not the case, there is no correct discernment, and then the object is only a concept. Thus, it seems that a concept cannot be the object of panna if I have understood you correctly? Concept and reality can be the objects of both panna and of a deluded mind. But only panna discerns what is a reality and what is a concept. 1: From the time we wake up there is experience of dhammas with a deluded mind. We touch what is hard, but we do not realize it. We think about bed, table, spoon, on account of rupas that are experienced through bodysense. The hardness that is touched seems to stay, but in reality it falls away and is replaced by another hardness. The previous hardness has gone forever. The new one is similar, but it cannot be the same. Howard wrote to Michael: perfection of wisdom suttas of early Mahayana, and the work of Nagarjuna, > were > responses not to Theravada, but to the Sarvastivada and Sautrantika schools > which were seriously infected by substantialism-eternalism and > annihilationism.. > > Michael: > I think you are right but the point is that those ideas also found their way > > into the Theravada commentaries. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, to some extent they apparently did. Kalupahana makes that point as well. They found there way into Mahayana as well, BTW!> N: substantialism-eternalism found their way into each one of us. Actually, the real cause is the latent tendency of wrong view that adheres. Personality belief, sakkayaditthi, is the condition for all other kinds of wrong view. Hardness seems to stay on. We may repeat the Tipitaka and Buddhaghosa: it has no essence, it has no core, but, we still have conditions for wrong view so long as it is not eradicated. Taking 2 and 3: Panna knows realities and concepts. Jhanacitta is accompanied by panna and it knows meditation subjects such as infinite space which is a concept. The Buddha knew all worlds in all aspects. He thought of beings with compassion and wisdom, considering: whom of the beings that are capable of being guided (veneyya satta) can I help today? And for us, when developing right understanding, should we not know concepts so that we know the difference between concepts and realities? And think of the Vis. XIV, 14, all the levels of wisdom. Even can be the objects. There are many levels of panna, and panna of satipatthana understands paramattha dhammas. Though not yet known, they are knowable, that is, if panna is developed at this moment. The eye is knowable, it is dhamma, it is real. Visible object is knowable, it is real, it is dhamma. It depends on the degree of panna which dhammas are actually known and understood as they are: impermanent, dukkha and anatta. Nina. 28057 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:15am Subject: Tiika Vis 54 Tiika Vis 54 Relevant Vis. passage: Vis. 54. 6. As regards visible data, etc., which come next, a visible datum has the characteristic of impinging on the eye. Its function is to be the objective field of eye-consciousness. It is manifested as the resort of that too. Its proximate cause is the four great primaries. And all the [following] kinds of derived materiality are the same as this. Where there is a difference we shall mention it. This [visible datum] is of various kinds as 'blue, yellow' (Dhs.617) and so on. Vis 54. tato paresu pana ruupaadiisu cakkhupa.tihananalakkha.na.m ruupa.m, cakkhuvi~n~naa.nassa visayabhaavarasa.m, tasseva gocarapaccupa.t.thaana.m, catumahaabhuutapada.t.thaana.m. yathaa ceta.m tathaa sabbaanipi upaadaaruupaani. yattha pana viseso atthi, tattha vakkhaama. tayida.m niila.m piitakantiaadivasena anekavidha.m. Tiika 54. words: pa.tihanati: to strike abhighaata (m): impact visaya: object gocara: objective field a~n~natthabhaavo: elsewhere caareti (caarita): to pasture, feed, to feast. aavi: clear yattha: where aadike: to begin with. Text: Cakkhumhi, cakkhussa vaa pa.tihanana.m cakkhupa.tihanana.m, The impingement on the eye or of the eye is eye-impingement, ta.m lakkha.na.m etassaati cakkhupa.tihananalakkha.na.m. this is its characteristic [of visible object] thus, the characteristic of impingement on the eye. Pa.tihanana~ncettha yathaavutto abhighaatova. And here the impinging is, as said, just the impact. Visayabhaavo aaramma.napaccayataa. (Its function is) being the objective field, it is object-condition *. Kaama.m saa eva gocarataa, tathaapi visayagocaraana.m aya.m viseso ana~n~natthabhaavo, Sense-object is just the objective field, and therein the diversity of visible data is not to be found elsewhere, tabbahulacaaritaa ca cakkhuvi~n~naa.nassa. and it is an object of abundant relish for seeing-consciousness **. Visayabhaave cassa ya.m vattabba.m, ta.m parato aavi bhavissati. And what should be said of its being the objective field will become clear elsewhere. Yattha pana kaayavi~n~natti-aadike. Just as in the case of body-intimation to begin with ***. ******** English: The impingement on the eye or of the eye is eye-impingement, this is its characteristic [of visible object], thus, the characteristic of impingement on the eye. And here the impinging is, as said, just the impact. (Its function is) being the objective field, it is object-condition *. Sense-object is just the objective field, and therein the diversity of visible data is not to be found elsewhere, and it is an object of abundant relish for seeing-consciousness **. And what should be said of its being the objective field will become clear elsewhere. Just as in the case of body-intimation to begin with ***. ___________ * Visible object is object-condition for seeing and for the other cittas in the eye-door process. Object-condition is an indispensable condition for the arising of cittas. Each citta must experience an object. ** Visible object is a sense object and it is in particular a condition for abundant enjoyment. As we read before: ³It relishes (cakkhati), thus it is an eye (cakkhu)². This reminds us that we are greatly attached to visible object and that we go on thinking with attachment on account of what is seen, without end. *** The Vis. text states that the following kinds of derived materiality (after visible object) are similar, but that it shall be mentioned where there is a difference. Body-intimation to begin with is different, it displays intention and this will become clearer later on. ********* Nina. 28058 From: nordwest Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:16am Subject: The worst Shame Why is it , that after countless lifetimes of practicing Buddhism, they have succeeded in becoming Bodhisattvas or Buddhas, whereas, we are still mired in reincarnation? This is the worst shame, unmatched by any other. .... The difference between enlightened beings and sentient beings is that enlightened beings think of all sentient beings instead of themselves, while sentient beings who are ordinary people only think of themselves. from the book: "Changing Destiny" by Ven. Master Chin Kung -------------- We should all feel deep humility thinking about this, that the only reasom why we are hereri sbecause of our egoistic thinking. And then let us use this humility to transform it into wisdom. Gassho, Thomas 28059 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 0:48pm Subject: Samadhi Hello all, I have a question to my estimated friends. It is in relation to samadhi, more specifically if anyone knows if there are any texts in the Theravada tradition that deal in detail with the development of concentration, more specifically from the stage of preliminary concentration (parikammasamadhi) to access concentration (upacarasamadhi). I know the contents of the Visudhimagga on this, and also came across a number of suttas that talk about concentration, and also read the Wheel book written by Bhante G on Jhanas, but never saw a detailed instruction on how to proceed from preliminary concentration to access concentration. My interest became even greater when I recently came across a book written by a Tibetan Lama which describes, based on commentaries written by Asanga and Maitreya, the steps necessary to achieve calm abiding, which I assume is similar to access concentration. I am somewhat surprised not to have yet found something similar in the Pali Canon. Does anyone have any information about this? I really appreciate any input anyone may have. Metta 28060 From: Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:35pm Subject: Re: Question on ego and self .. „« Hi Sarah, > > Here is another quick response! ;-) .... Likewise! ;-) .... James: Hmm¡Kwe seem to be on a race here! ;-) Pretty soon we will outpace those cittas! ;-). „« „« Okay, what you are suggesting > Sarah is impossible. Let's do a little experiment: I will count to > five and when I am done I would like for you to have discarded your > anger, cast off your conceit, and transcend all the fetters. Okay, > so get ready: One¡KTwo¡KThree¡K.Four¡K..Five! So, how did it go? .... I had a great laugh and Jon asked from another room what was going on;-) .... „« James: This really pleases me. It was meant as a silly demonstration and I am glad that you saw that. I don¡¦t know about anyone else but I do enjoy this banter that you and I seem to get into every once in a while. ;-) „« Are > you enlightened yet? No? Why not? ..... Anatta. No self. No control. ..... „« James: Sarah, this is where you and I differ greatly. Now, I am not stating that you are wrong and that I am right, because I know that neither one of us truly comprehends anatta (non self): But I feel that you too often take an extremist view on this subject. I believe that it is important when looking at anything, be it the Buddha¡¦s teaching or just regular life in Samsara, to maintain the ¡¥Middle Path¡¦ in attitude. Even though there is no self that doesn¡¦t mean that there is no control; conversely, there isn¡¦t absolute control either. I believe that the truth is somewhere in the middle of those two extremes. If you will accept this possibility, maybe you will see the role of meditation in the Buddha- dharma: not an absolute control over insight but a way to create the conditions for it to arise. And still, there are no guarantees. „« „« >The instructions were simple > enough and you know what you need to do, just do it! The reason you > can't do it is because your mind isn't developed enough to do it; > otherwise you would have already done it. The only way to make your > mind developed enough to do it is to practice Buddhist meditation. .... Er......for wisdom to develop, I think. Pa.tipada or path of practice as it mentioned in the sutta. No one to do anything. .... „« James: See above comment. „« > You don't agree with my definition of meditation which is "bringing > the mind repeatedly to one subject or object" and you would like to > know where I got that definition. Huh? That is the definition for > concentration. Concentration is defined as "1 a : the act or process > of concentrating : the state of being concentrated; especially : > direction of attention to a single object ". ..... Concentration which arises at every instant with every moment of consciousness (even when wildly distracted) and which can be right and wrong, just like wise and unwise attention can be. Concentration is not the same as the development of calm and insight. .... „« James: Frankly, I have no idea what you are talking about. Concentration isn¡¦t a natural feature of consciousness moments; concentration is a way to describe successive consciousness moments. Yes, each citta will have but one object but that doesn¡¦t mean that it is concentrated, that is just its nature. Single raindrops are not a river but if enough of them come together, they will form a river¡Kand an ocean. That is concentration. It is with the power of this concentration that the world can be investigated, the ¡¥self¡¦ can be investigated, and the truth can be known. (Sorry¡KI am starting to sound like some kind of Buddhist motivational speaker! LOL! ;-) I don¡¦t have the ¡¥rational presentation¡¦ ability that Howard has ;-). „« „« >And you know the Buddha > taught Right Concentration. Right Concentration cannot be practiced > while reading (or writing) a post. .... Did the Buddha say there were any occasions when there couldn¡¦t be the development of satipatthana (inc. rt concentration)? In the Satipatthana Sutta it talks about while walking, getting dressed, eating, going to the bathroom and so on. .... „« James: Okay, this is going to be another big area where we disagree. I know that the Buddha spoke often about how things ¡¥ought¡¦ to be, but that doesn¡¦t mean that things are always that way or can always be that way. To understand the Buddha¡¦s speech it is important to see his point of view and to understand the time period and audience to which he was speaking. The Buddha didn¡¦t give any kind of ¡¥pep talks¡¦ whatsoever. He simply said ¡§This is the way things should be¡¨ and there were no ifs ands or buts about it. From the Buddha¡¦s perspective what he said was the ways things were for him, he was describing what was natural for him; but that doesn¡¦t mean that it is supposed to be natural for the average worldling or can be natural for the average worldling. The Buddha didn¡¦t give pep talks and try to state that he ¡¥understood¡¦ where the average person was coming from probably because that wasn¡¦t accepted in his culture. He was seen as a leader and he had to speak as a leader: This is the way things should be! End of story. I believe that you have misinterpreted this kind of speech to mean that insight can be developed in everyday life with no outside effort whatsoever. I really don¡¦t think it is that easy, but I wish it was. Read the suttas from Ven. Ananda and Ven. Sariputta (with this perspective) and you will see a very different and more empathic presentation of the dhamma, because it was socially acceptable for them to present it as such. „« „« >You yourself have > admitted, "That's fine, no suggestion of being out of context. I was > getting side-tracked and thinking about another thread too." You > see, you didn't have proper concentration while you were writing that > post. Right concentration cannot be developed during everyday > activities to the extent that the Buddha intended. .... I protest! If it was wise reflection on the Dhamma (whatever the thread) then at the ¡¥wise¡¦ moments there were rt concentration, calm and understanding, even if not any satipatthana. .... „« James: Gosh Sarah, it is nothing personal. I really respect and admire you and your dedication to the dhamma or I wouldn¡¦t spend my time writing posts to you (I could be out looking at those pyramids or something! LOL!). I really don¡¦t understand how you determine ¡¥wise¡¦ and ¡¥unwise¡¦ moments of fleeting concentration; maybe this is some kind of Abhidhamma thing? I am not able to determine such things. Of course I could slap superficial labels on my various mind moments and call some of them ¡¥wise¡¦ and then others ¡¥unwise¡¦, but I choose not to do that. Enlightenment can come from some of the most unexpected moments: Ven. Ananda became enlightened in midair when he was about to lie down to rest. You just never know. Set up the right conditions and amazing things can happen. (Sorry¡Kmotivation speaker again ;-). „« > If you don't agree, okay. .... okay. ¡§Wisdom is the precious gem of humans¡¨ (SN1,Devatasamyutta, 52(2)) Metta, Sarah p.s I have a little experiment for you, James, and no need to count. Just consider whether there can be any useful reflection of the Dhamma whilst reading this post (whether or not you agree) or any metta or consideration of mental states or physical phenomena. If the answer is yes, it¡¦s an indication of moments of rt concentration, calm and a level of understanding, however briefly. Whilst you¡¦re teaching in school, having an argument, eating a snack or whatever (trying to work out the time in Egypt - another sidetrack;-)), see whether there is any understanding of any kind. SN1, Devatasamyutta,10 (10) [The Blessed One] ¡§They do not sorrow over the past, Nor do they hanker for the future. They maintain themselves with what is present; Hence their complexion is so serene. ¡§Through hankering for the future, Through sorrowing over the past, Fools dry up and wither away Like a green reed cut down¡¨ ===== James: Wow, I seemed to have really piqued your interest in the Devatasamyutta of SN; I am pleased about that. I just recently discovered it myself and I am glad you share my enthusiasm. I will try your experiment and report back when I feel the time is right. At this point I am not overly impressed by any individual moments of ¡¥right understanding¡¦ I might have, they are like individual raindrops to me; I am looking for the grand stream. Metta, James 28061 From: Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concept & characteristic Hi, Nina - Please forgive the "sadhu post," but ... sadhu, sadhu, sadhu! Amazing as you may find it, I like what you have to say in the following VERY much! (So, something seriously "bad" must be happening to at least one of us! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/17/2003 1:15:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Concept and reality can be the objects of both panna and of a deluded mind. > But only panna discerns what is a reality and what is a concept. > 1: From the time we wake up there is experience of dhammas with a deluded > mind. We touch what is hard, but we do not realize it. We think about bed, > table, spoon, on account of rupas that are experienced through bodysense. > The hardness that is touched seems to stay, but in reality it falls away and > is replaced by another hardness. The previous hardness has gone forever. The > new one is similar, but it cannot be the same. > Howard wrote to Michael: > > > perfection of wisdom suttas of early Mahayana, and the work of Nagarjuna, > > were > > responses not to Theravada, but to the Sarvastivada and Sautrantika schools > > which were seriously infected by substantialism-eternalism and > > annihilationism.. > > > > Michael: > > I think you are right but the point is that those ideas also found their way > > > > into the Theravada commentaries. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, to some extent they apparently did. Kalupahana makes that point > as well. They found there way into Mahayana as well, BTW!> > > N: substantialism-eternalism found their way into each one of us. Actually, > the real cause is the latent tendency of wrong view that adheres. > Personality belief, sakkayaditthi, is the condition for all other kinds of > wrong view. Hardness seems to stay on. We may repeat the Tipitaka and > Buddhaghosa: it has no essence, it has no core, but, we still have > conditions for wrong view so long as it is not eradicated. > Taking 2 and 3: Panna knows realities and concepts. Jhanacitta is > accompanied by panna and it knows meditation subjects such as infinite space > which is a concept. The Buddha knew all worlds in all aspects. He thought of > beings with compassion and wisdom, considering: whom of the beings that are > capable of being guided (veneyya satta) can I help today? > And for us, when developing right understanding, should we not know concepts > so that we know the difference between concepts and realities? And think of > the Vis. XIV, 14, all the levels of wisdom. Even science> can be the objects. > There are many levels of panna, and panna of satipatthana understands > paramattha dhammas. > Though not yet known, they are knowable, that is, if panna is developed at > this moment. > The eye is knowable, it is dhamma, it is real. Visible object is knowable, > it is real, it is dhamma. It depends on the degree of panna which dhammas > are actually known and understood as they are: impermanent, > dukkha and > anatta. > Nina. 28062 From: Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 54 "As we read before: ³It relishes (cakkhati), thus it is an eye (cakkhu)². This reminds us that we are greatly attached to visible object and that we go on thinking with attachment on account of what is seen, without end." Hi Nina, I wonder how one would characterize an arahant's eye. Also, why isn't there an explanation of tangible data? Is acid indigestion a feeling (vedana) or a rupa? What about a fever? What about sensations associated with pregnancy? Larry 28063 From: Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 54 Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/17/2003 1:15:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > English: > The impingement on the eye or of the eye is eye-impingement, > this is its characteristic [of visible object], thus, the characteristic of > impingement on the eye. -------------------------------- Howard: So, impingement on the eye (i.e., eye contact/sight)is the characteristic of visible object. -------------------------------- > And here the impinging is, as said, just the impact. > (Its function is) being the objective field, it is object-condition *. -------------------------------- Howard: So, visible object has the function of being the objective field - it is object condition. -------------------------------- > Sense-object is just the objective field, and therein the > diversity of > visible data is not to be found elsewhere,... -------------------------------- Howard: So, sense-object is only the objective field, nothing else. This, and the foregoing material seems to me to say that visible object is nothing but object of consciousness, which, of course, is my position. I await correction! ;-)) What does "therein the diversity of visible data is not to be found elsewhere" mean? Can you clarify this, Nina? =============================== With metta, Howard 28064 From: Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concept & characteristic Hi Jon & Nina, I agree reality can be an object of a deluded consciousness (i.e. any unwholesome consciousness) but I wonder what is delusion if not conceptuality? This isn't to say concept can't be reasonably correct, e.g. the three general characteristics (impermanence, suffering, anatta). However, wisdom's (panna) special feature is its ability to know individual characteristics. Larry 28065 From: Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi Hi Michael, PTS has a translation called "Manual of a Mystic" or "The Yogavachara's Manual". The original text is undated. It is interesting from a sociological point of view, showing what sort of enthusiasms prevailed, but I found it to be useless as practical instruction. I think your best bet is to try to sort out Visuddhimagga and Vimuttimagga. There is also this short essay: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebmed058.htm I found it to be a little over zealous but it turned my head in a useful direction. Larry ---------------------- Michael: "Hello all, I have a question to my estimated friends. It is in relation to samadhi, more specifically if anyone knows if there are any texts in the Theravada tradition that deal in detail with the development of concentration..." 28066 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexperienced rupas Hi Howard > I take no exception to what you said here. Whatever > conventional object is observable by any means (even not yet invented) is observable, and what is not is not. > Ultimately, there is only one general category of "things" > that are observable, namely the category of objects of consciousness. Experienced hardness is observed, and no other .. ever. Sights are observable. When they occur, they occur as objects of consciousness. Prior to that, there is only the greater or lesser potential for them. An unseen sight is never observed - it is > unobservable, it doesn't exist. Where is an unseen sight? And how > do we observe it? Answer: We don't observe it .. ever. k: In my earlier email, I put the preposition that what is unobservable now does not mean it does not exist. Just like not many pple can observe spirits, so are they not in existence. This is a ver y foundamental question. Each individual has their own observable range, so the statement what is not observable does not hold ground. Furthermore, we dont observe it now, does not mean we will not observe it in countless lives later. Just like infa red is an unseen light, that does not mean it does not exist, our sight does not have the right vipaka to see it. Certain animals can detect their prey by electro-magnetic field (I think is shark) or heat wave (snake) which is not observable by us. So can we said what is detected by animal consciouness does not exist just bc it is not observable by ours now. It is observable now bc we used instruments, but still not observable without them. kind regards Ken O 28067 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi Hello Larry, This was most useful. I forgot about the Vimuttimagga, I have a copy of it but didn't think of it. In fact the essay also opened my eyes to the value of the Vimuttimagga. I don't know why but I had in mind that the Vimuttimagga was a kind of 'little brother' of the Visudhimagga, if you know what I mean. In any case the essay quotes the Vimuttimagga as well. I liked the essay very much. For a long time doing breath meditation I thought my progress was being thwarted by not seeing a visual sign, this essay definetely comes closer to my experience. Tks a lot. Metta Michael PS: I don't want to reopen the discussion on the quality of the work done by Buddhaghosa but the essay certainly points to some possible gaffes on his part. >From: LBIDD@w... >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi >Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 18:17:49 -0700 (MST) > >Hi Michael, > >PTS has a translation called "Manual of a Mystic" or "The Yogavachara's >Manual". The original text is undated. It is interesting from a >sociological point of view, showing what sort of enthusiasms prevailed, >but I found it to be useless as practical instruction. > >I think your best bet is to try to sort out Visuddhimagga and >Vimuttimagga. > >There is also this short essay: >http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebmed058.htm I found it to be a >little over zealous but it turned my head in a useful direction. > >Larry >---------------------- >Michael: "Hello all, >I have a question to my estimated friends. It is in relation to samadhi, >more specifically if anyone knows if there are any texts in the >Theravada tradition that deal in detail with the development of >concentration..." 28068 From: Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexperienced rupas Hi, Ken - You are not getting me. There is a difference between what is not observed and what is not observable. Infra-red light is observable, by some creatures anytime, and by humans with the right equipment. Whatever *may* be observed by some mindstream under some conditions I call "observable". By 'unobservable' I mean not observable by any sentient being under any circumstances. If we use these terms in this way, do we still disagree? With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/17/03 10:46:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > > I take no exception to what you said here. Whatever > >conventional object is observable by any means (even not yet > invented) is observable, and what is not is not. > > Ultimately, there is only one general category of "things" > >that are observable, namely the category of objects of > consciousness. Experienced hardness is observed, and no other .. > ever. Sights are observable. When they occur, they occur as objects > of consciousness. Prior to that, there is only the greater or lesser > potential for them. An unseen sight is never observed - it is > >unobservable, it doesn't exist. Where is an unseen sight? And how > >do we observe it? Answer: We don't observe it .. ever. > > k: In my earlier email, I put the preposition that what is > unobservable now does not mean it does not exist. Just like not many > pple can observe spirits, so are they not in existence. This is a > ver y foundamental question. Each individual has their own > observable range, so the statement what is not observable does not > hold ground. Furthermore, we dont observe it now, does not mean we > will not observe it in countless lives later. Just like infa red is > an unseen light, that does not mean it does not exist, our sight does > not have the right vipaka to see it. Certain animals can detect > their prey by electro-magnetic field (I think is shark) or heat wave > (snake) which is not observable by us. So can we said what is > detected by animal consciouness does not exist just bc it is not > observable by ours now. It is observable now bc we used instruments, > but still not observable without them. > > > > kind regards > Ken O > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28069 From: Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:40pm Subject: Re: Grasping at mind states Hi Sulin and everyone, It is good to be writing to you :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sukinder@k... wrote: > Hi Herman and all, > > Herman, long time no write. :-) > > > This reminds me of a comment in another post in which you rejected > the classification of nama and rupa but insisted that "There is > experience". I wonder if the above observation is a result of > insight or is it a conclusion made from previous conclusion on and > on, and which is probably no different from anyone's observation be > they Buddhists or not? It is so easy to infer `experience', but *do > you know it*? > The nama and rupa classification which you reject is part of a > Teaching which show that knowing the "knowing element" (nama) as > distinct from "the known element" (rupa) can only be at a very high > stage of development. You and I will have to just accept > the "theory" that this is so, No such luck, Sukin, I do not have to accept anything. Faith does not develop from faith, faith develops from understanding. And understanding comes from testing the theory, not accepting it blindly. The faith that develops from the desire for faith is better left in the garbage. and no matter what we would like to > think and how strongly we feel `confidence' that something is the > case, "doubt" will forever rule. So is there `experience' as in > direct knowing, or is there only `inferring' that it is so? ;-) And > if this is the case, with just nama and rupa, how much more so > should we be careful about our experience of anicca, dukkha and > anatta?! > When the author of the above mentioned article makes the final > conclusion, > ""Not I (an abiding individuality) breathe, but breathing occurs; > not I go, but going occurs; > not I stand, but standing occurs; > not I sit, but sitting occurs; > not I lie down, but lying down occurs; > not I look, but looking occurs; > not I bend, but bending occurs;….."" > > Do you see that he is just replacing one kind of concept with > another, here the `I' is replaced > by `breathing', `going', `standing' etc. and both of these are > equally unreal? There is no reality such as `sitting', `lying down' > etc. Seeing this does not lead to understanding of `not-self', > though perhaps `not-I', but this is not what is meant by `anatta'. > In fact it increases `atta sanna' and not does lead > to `selflessness' as the author claims. > There is more danger in a wordling reading a compendium of the Abhidhamma, then there is in a wordling sitting on his bum. The Abhidhamma comes after enlightenment. Sitting on your bum comes before (Buddha's example, not mine) > > You then asked: > > I seriously wonder to what extent that particular understanding of > > the teachings that militates against directed activity is intended > > to keep samsara an attractive proposition. > > > > Isn't it a self-concept that lies at the source of the studious > > avoidance of anything that could be interpreted as originating > from > > a self-concept? > > It can no doubt be so, but I would like to think that it is usually > not the case. I know Sarah for example; her panna is so sharp that > she detects the `self' talking long before I can do so, if ever. In > my case it is not so much speaking from a `position', but > rather `recognizing' the fact. If the penny is going to drop, there is only one requirement, and that is a willingness for it to happen. The willingness underscores an understanding that the understanding doesn't come from anything controllable. Willingness and non-participation go hand in hand. The mind is occupied with what you feed it. If you feed the mind with theory, that is what you will be regurgitating. If you don't feed your mind, you are allowing the penny to start it's downward journey. No contribution required, except for willingness. > > Herman, I believe "views" are behind all our choices, and given that > we have accumulated so much `wrong view' from don't know when, I > think it is wise to carefully consider what the Buddha taught and > not too quickly jump to conclusions. The `conceptual construct' > which you have tried to warn everyone against, is *not* necessarily > a hindrance, but rather one that is meant to replace our own > underlying views that which we are often not aware of. And this is > one good reason why I think we are all doing the right thing, > engaging in discussions. It is the only way to straighten out one's > views. > > > Peace, love and joy > > Hesitatingly I ask Herman, what do you mean by these three words…..? > I ask because you talk against `conceptual frameworks' yet you use > these so easily. They are words to describe mental states that I would wish to all and sundry if wishing had any efficacy:-) > > > Herman > > Metta, > Sukin. All the best to you, Sukin Herman 28070 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Herman > > > Come on, Herman. Talk about an experiment tailored to give the > desired outcome ;-)). > > <<< > Take an object, any object. Let any thoughts about the object go. > Then become angry about the object. Were you able to feel angry at > will? Let the anger go. Now feel happy about the object. Were you > able to feel happy at will? Try applying different mindstates. Does > it work? > >>> > > Firstly, is it really anger (or feeling happy), or is it an > approximation of how you feel when angry? > Jon, I think you are talking about doubt here, not anger or happiness. > Secondly, did it happen at will, or did it take some willing (if you > see what I mean)? Here you are talking about intention. The intention to be happy can arise after the awareness arises that happiness is a possibility. > > Finally, and more importantly, couldn't the ease with which dosa or > happy feeling is aroused be accounted for by the fact that we have so > much accumulated dosa and attachment that these are ready to bubble > forth at the slightest opportunity, almost *as if* their arising was > subject to our control. I am open to any ideas that aren't closed. How would one go about testing the hypothesis? > > A better experiment would surely be: how often in a day do anger and > attachment arise; when they are arising, can they be made to *not* > arise with the same ease as you suggest they can be aroused? > Yes, agreed, a very worthwhile experiment. Could it be that anger and attachment arise as frequently as they do and to the extent that they do, without seeming intention for them to arise, because there is no awareness of what is being intended? > <<< > Clearly, feelings are not linked to objects. Feelings are linked to > intention. > >>> > > Hmm, weren't you suggesting in an earlier post that keeping the eyes > shut would be one way of preventing clinging to visible-object > arising (clinging being one of the main sources of 'happy feeling' in > our lives)? This seems to suggest that feeling is very closely > linked to the experiencing of objects (among other things, of > course), wouldn't you say? Feelings are very closely linked to the determination of what objects are, as in, what they mean. I fully accept that initial feelings, brought about by initial determinations, are just the results of what one has learned. (attribution of meaning) That this is not a deterministic process is demonstrayed by the ability to change one's mind about what objects mean (until your hypothesis becomes accepted theory that is :-) This relearning process will change the initial feelings that arise on seeing similar objects. A non-controversial peace, love and joy to you Herman > > Jon > > PS > <<< > If you find that you can intend, while a book is telling you that you > can't, perhaps you should intend to put the book down :-) > >>> > > I have never read a book that suggests I can't intend. That would be > a pretty odd assertion What book do you have in mind here? > I'm glad you agree that it is a very strange assertion. I have never read such a book, but others seem to have. 28071 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Links to questions about nibbana Hi Herman, James, Ken O & All, (James & Ken O- you were recently discussing atoms and James referred to the Abhidhamma’s ‘atomistic view of dhammas’, so I’ve added a note at the end that may be of interest. ***** Vism XV1,67f DISCUSSION ON NIBBANA cont. . “[Q.9] Then it follows that nibbana, too, has the kind of permanence [claimed] of the atom and so on.* [A] That is not so. Because of the absence of any cause [that brings about its arising]. [Q.10] Because nibbana has permanence, then, these [that is, the atom, etc] are permanent as well. [A] That is not so. Because [in the proposition] the characteristic of [logical] cause does not arise. [In other words, to say that nibbana is permanent is not to assert a reason why the atom, etc, should be permanent.] [Q.11] Then they are permanent because of the absence of their arising, as nibbana is. [A] That is not so. Because the atom and so have not been established as facts. The aforesaid logical reasoning proves that only this [that is, nibbana] is permanent [precisely because it is uncreated]; and it is immaterial because it transcends the individual essence of matter. The Buddha’s goal is one and has no plurality.” ***** * atom (a.nu) or (parama.nu), the smallest atom. 36 paramaa.nus are the size of one a.nu. VbhA 343 “Herein....a parama.nu (‘fundamental particle’) as a portion of space does not come into the focus of the physical eye, it only comes into that of the divine eye.” “An a.nu (‘atom’) appears circling round and round in the sun’s rays coming in through cracks in walls and palmyra leaves.” It continues to give various measurements up to yojana (‘league’). “The bhikkhu who is able to see the size of an a.nu to be as big as Mount Sineru, king of mountains, being sixy-eight thousand yojanas high, is called one who sees the slightest faults as fear.” ***** Comments welcome! Metta, Sarah ====== 28072 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 0:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexperienced rupas Hi Howard My preposition is timeline. What is not observed in the past has now been observable as according to my previous mail examples. Hence what is not being observed by our consciouness now does not upright mean that it is not possible to be observable in the timeless future in our countless lives. Thus I feel the rupas now unobservable by us do not mean it does not exist. Lets be open minded, if commentators say they exist, so there is a possibility they exists. kind regards Ken O 28073 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Medicine Dear Htoo, I appreciate your reminders about taking the bitter medicine very much. --- Htoo Naing wrote: > Why this has been happening is evident that people are fond of sweet. > They do not like bitter taste. > > But when they realize that they have a disease ( suffering ), they will > take that bitter medicine in order to recover from the disease. > > Unfortunately, when they cannot realize that they have a disease, they > will not search for treatment. So, they will not take that awful bitter > tasted medicine. .... May we all take the bitter medicine. On your other series, ‘How to Get Through The Samsara’, I appreciate your sharing with us. Like you say, ‘Mahasatipatthana is a wide subject’. We went throught the commentaries here in great detail and it would have been helpful to have had your contributions and Abhdidhamma input too. There are some points I’d like to discuss with you further from your post. I’ll just mention one or two for now and wait for any response before adding any others. From the commentaries to the Satipatthana Sutta we read that bhavana or meditation is the development of pa~n~naa and sati - the understanding of namas and rupas under the 4 satipatthanas. We also read that sati sampaja~n~na (clear comprehension) is desirable at all times, even in every ‘sluggish and unbalanced state of mind’, as opposed to set times of day. You mention recognizing and knowing ‘every movement’ and clear understanding of ‘bodily movements’ and so on, but these of course are mere conceptual terms and cannot be the objects of awareness as of course you know. As one friend, KenH wrote here recently: >.....When the Buddha spoke of 'mindfulness while walking,' he did not mean the kind of mindfulness we share with lesser beings: When dogs and jackals walk, they know they are walking; Also, a baby at the breast knows pleasant feeling. We should not slander the Buddha by suggesting that these commonplace forms of mindfulness [of body and feeling] are the same as his unique, profound teaching: satipatthana.< I’d be interested to know whether you agree with these comments that were written on another thread. Thank you for your last clarification (on an Abhidhamma point) to me as well. Metta, Sarah ====== 28074 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 0:55am Subject: Re: Sounds - heard and unheard Hi Sarah, Howard and everyone, I think that to a certain extent this discussion is possible, as well as the discussion on unexperienced rupas, because of differences in definitions. There are three possibilities that I can see. Is there sensation when the cause for sensation is there, but no sensing apparatus ie consciousness? Is there sensation when the cause for sensation is there, and consciousness? Is there sensation when the cause for sensation is there, and consciousness as well as consciousness of consciousness? For me it is clear that there is sensation without the awareness of sensation, giving my reactivity to things flying into my eyes whilst occupied with refuting a heretic on the Net, or thunderclaps in the middle of the night. There are no correct definitions, and when everyone agrees to a common definition there are no discussions. I say Vive la difference!!! Cheers, big ears Herman 28075 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi James, I’m enjoying the pleasant banter too;-) --- buddhatrue@y... wrote: > James: Hmm we seem to be on a race here! ;-) Pretty soon we will > outpace those cittas! ;-). ... S:That will take some racing and outpacing! ;-) .... S:> Anatta. No self. No control. > ..... > James: Sarah, this is where you and I differ greatly. Now, I > am not stating that you are wrong and that I am right, because I know > that neither one of us truly comprehends anatta (non self): But I > feel that you too often take an extremist view on this subject. I > believe that it is important when looking at anything, be it the > Buddha’s teaching or just regular life in Samsara, ..... S: And what is ‘regular life in Samsara’ if it is not this very moment of seeing, experiencing hardness or thinking about what’s just been seen or heard? No suffering if no clinging to present name-and-form (namas and rupas). Failing to appreciate this, we’ll continue to be ‘the withered up fools’ as I see it. .... James: > to maintain > the ‘Middle Path’ in attitude. Even though there is no self that > doesn’t mean that there is no control; conversely, there isn’t > absolute control either. I believe that the truth is somewhere in > the middle of those two extremes. <...> .... The Middle Path - the development of satipatthana at this very moment. Devatasamyutta, 111 A Sword 21 (1): [The Blessed One:] “As if smitten by a sword, As if his head were on fire, A bhikkhu should wander mindfully To abandon Identity view.” It may sound extreme, but the middle path is the understanding and mindfulness of present dhammas - on fire with ignorance, attachment and wrong view of self. However, I appreciate the reminders about attitude, thank you;-) .... > James: Frankly, I have no idea what you are talking about. > Concentration isn’t a natural feature of consciousness moments; > concentration is a way to describe successive consciousness moments. > Yes, each citta will have but one object but that doesn¡|t mean that > it is concentrated, that is just its nature. .... S: Even when we are speaking harshly or enjoying an ice-cream, for example, there are repeated moments of concentration on the object along with unpleasant or pleasant feelings, attention to detail and so on. So we see that concentration does not only arise with ‘good’ cittas. .... James: >Single raindrops are > not a river but if enough of them come together, they will form a > river and an ocean. That is concentration. It is with the power of > this concentration that the world can be investigated, the ‘self’ can > be investigated, and the truth can be known. .... S: How will it be known whether this kind of concentration is good or bad? Is it always ‘good’ when you meditate? How about now? I mean there are rivers and rivers;-) .... James:(Sorry I am starting to > sound like some kind of Buddhist motivational speaker! LOL! ;-) I > don¡|t have the ‘rational presentation’ ability that Howard has ;-). .... S: LOL too! Maybe we need to read more books on phenomenology;-) .... <..> James: >I believe that you > have misinterpreted this kind of speech to mean that insight can be > developed in everyday life with no outside effort whatsoever. I > really don¡|t think it is that easy, but I wish it was. .... S:Not easy - bitter medicine repeatedly as the subject heading suggests;-) .... > James: Gosh Sarah, it is nothing personal. I really respect > and admire you and your dedication to the dhamma or I wouldn’t spend > my time writing posts to you (I could be out looking at those > pyramids or something! LOL!). .... S:Thanks James - a great compliment - also to your keen interest in the dhamma;-) .... James: >I really don’t understand how you > determine ‘wise’ and ‘unwise’ moments of fleeting concentration; > maybe this is some kind of Abhidhamma thing? I am not able to > determine such things. Of course I could slap superficial labels on > my various mind moments and call some of them ‘wise’ and then > others ‘unwise’, but I choose not to do that. .... S: One drop at a time. Being honest about our great ignorance as you are is very important. It’s not a matter of slapping on labels or of even knowing ‘various mind moments’ but just beginning to understand a little about various dhammas or characteristics when they appear now: annoyance, frustration, distraction, sounds, thinking and so on. Realities which experience an object such as hearing and thinking are namas and realiies which are experienced such as visible objects and sounds are rupas. No self, no labels needed. .... James:>Enlightenment can come > from some of the most unexpected moments: Ven. Ananda became > enlightened in midair when he was about to lie down to rest. You > just never know. Set up the right conditions and amazing things can > happen. (Sorry¡Kmotivation speaker again ;-). ... S: So what are the right conditions for enlightenment? The good friend(s), Hearing dhamma, wise consideration etc. ... > James: Wow, I seemed to have really piqued your interest in the > Devatasamyutta of SN; I am pleased about that. I just recently > discovered it myself and I am glad you share my enthusiasm. I will > try your experiment and report back when I feel the time is right. .... S: I’ll look forward to that. Meanwhile, we could look at one chapter or section of SN together per week if you're interested. I think there are 56 chapters, so it'll only take just over a year;-) I'd appreciate the prompting, esp. if you start each one with a sutta extract and a few comments;-);-) .... > At this point I am not overly impressed by any individual moments > of ‘right understanding’ I might have, they are like individual > raindrops to me; I am looking for the grand stream. ... James, individual rain drops are how a grand stream begins and are very precious. If we’re greedy and always looking for the grand stream, we’re bound to be swept along by attachment and wrong view. One more sutta that is relevant to other threads on conventional and ultimate realities and the use of common language: Devatasamyutta, 25 (5) The Arahant “If a bhikkhu is an arahant, Consummate, with taints destroyed, One who bears his final body, Would he still say, ‘I speak’? And would he say, ‘They speak to me’?” “If a bhikkhu is an arahant, Consummate, with taints destroyed, One who bears his final body, He might still say, ‘I speak.’ And hemight say, ‘They speak to me.’ Skilful, knowing the world’s parlance, He uses such terms as mere expressions.” [Note: Vohaaramattena so vohareyya. Spk: “Although arahants have abandoned talk that implies belief in a self,they do not violate conventional discourse by saying, ‘The aggregates eat,the aggregates sit, the aggregates’ bowl, the aggregates’ robe’; for no one would understand them.”} Metta and appreciation for all your useful and interesting comments. Sarah ===== 28076 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:04am Subject: Re: Grasping at mind states Hi Herman (and James) and all, > > stage of development. You and I will have to just accept > > the "theory" that this is so, > > No such luck, Sukin, I do not have to accept anything. Faith does > not develop from faith, faith develops from understanding. And > understanding comes from testing the theory, not accepting it > blindly. :-) Obviously I wasn't talking about blind faith. Besides my faith is not yours, meaning the foundation of my faith is not going to be the same as anyone else's. When I made the above remark I was aware that such statements can be made only to oneself. However it was also meant to be a general remark about how certain aspects of the teachings can at best make sense only intellectually at this stage of one's development. The testing out may or may not be via direct experience and may or may not be with regard to that very aspect of the teaching. For example one may experience to a fairly convincing degree, that craving leads to clinging, and then believe by the same token that the non-arising of ignorance leads to the non-arising of formations. So in the same way, accepting the fact of conditionality, particularly about how panna of satipatthana can have only namas or rupas as object, and how the experience of the Tilakkhana must necessarily involve first knowing nama as nama and rupa as rupa, it makes sense to me that I must except this fact without insisting on first direct experience. The alternative here, is to embrace a theory which would involve dismissing much of what *does* make sense through direct inference if not insight, this being the concept of Satipatthana itself. > The faith that develops from the desire for faith is better left in > the garbage. Better to "know" it. ;-) > > Do you see that he is just replacing one kind of concept with > > another, here the `I' is replaced > > by `breathing', `going', `standing' etc. and both of these are > > equally unreal? There is no reality such as `sitting', `lying > down' > > etc. Seeing this does not lead to understanding of `not-self', > > though perhaps `not-I', but this is not what is meant by `anatta'. > > In fact it increases `atta sanna' and not does lead > > to `selflessness' as the author claims. > > > > There is more danger in a wordling reading a compendium of the > Abhidhamma, then there is in a wordling sitting on his bum. The > Abhidhamma comes after enlightenment. Sitting on your bum comes > before (Buddha's example, not mine) I believe you would also want to stress `honesty', how one must not be carried away by `ideas' about reality, but instead know what one can really know, right? This `sitting on one's bum', how does this connect with faith as we are discussing above? Part of `reading a compendium' (which btw I never do), is the realization that one is *not* having anything more than just `intellectual understanding'. And knowing what one knows, one does understand `intellectually' what `sitting on one's bum' mean. One is sitting on one's bum all day, and it does not take any great insight to realize that `wanting' is what it is. How can upon closing one's eyes and realizing that `self' is taking the lead can one continue to pursue the activity if not by pretending that it is not what it is, or by appeal to faith which would appear to me quite blind!? James has compared reading Abhidhamma to reading other subjects such as physics and chemistry. I believe this is the obvious conclusion which even most of us have made at one time or the other. "The word is not the experience!!" True. But just as in chemistry, without the knowledge about chemical composition, it would be impossible to create new chemical compounds, without knowing conditionality (which means knowing cittas, cetasikas, rupas and their sabhava), it is impossible to know about "anatta". And knowing "about" all this (and this is the important point), is prerequisite of any direct experience. How? The ignorant and grasping mind is always interpreting and resting upon interpretations, but it does not know it. The teachings are meant to dislodge (on a moment to moment basis) this tendency, and at the same time to direct the attention to what is *really* taking place. And do we need anything more than this, given that the tendency to ignorance, along with attachment and aversion is so strong? Buddha sat, and he did a lot of other things in that last life and in the countless lives before that, I think we must not try to imitate anyone, let alone the Buddha. Outward conventional activity can be copied, but don't you think that it is all about the state of one's mind now at this very moment!? > If the penny is going to drop, there is only one requirement, and > that is a willingness for it to happen. The willingness underscores > an understanding that the understanding doesn't come from anything > controllable. Willingness and non-participation go hand in hand. Again I want to mention `honesty'. Often we talk about wanting to be without kilesas, but in reality we don't really mean it. Only one who *really* understands the danger of akusala can be said to really want to be rid of it, and this I accept, is much more than just intellectually seeing it to be so. So `willingness' is not controllable too ;-), however we start from where we are and the reliable tool we have is the intellectual understanding of the Buddha's teachings and always to be reminded about the difference between `thinking' and `direct understanding'. > The mind is occupied with what you feed it. If you feed the mind with > theory, that is what you will be regurgitating. If you don't feed > your mind, you are allowing the penny to start it's downward > journey. No contribution required, except for willingness. That is why a distinction is to be made between "theory" as in `accumulated knowledge' and `intellectual understanding'. The former may involve attachment and ignorance, the latter understanding and detachment, though even this can be object of greed and wrong view. However this latter `theory' is the foundation of the `practice' that is needed for final liberation. The penny does not role down as if it was all down hill, there will always be ups and downs, because we cannot expect anything more than a little understanding at a time followed by many, many moments of akusala. With the last statement, "No contribution required, except for willingness", I fully disagree. There are many factors each contributing all along this long and endless road, the leader of which is "Rt. View", and this starts with `Theory' ;-). > > > Peace, love and joy > > > > Hesitatingly I ask Herman, what do you mean by these three > words…..? > > I ask because you talk against `conceptual frameworks' yet you use > > these so easily. > > They are words to describe mental states that I would wish to all > and sundry if wishing had any efficacy:-) :-)Thanks, but wouldn't you prefer 'understanding'? Metta, Sukin. 28077 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 5:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Medicine Dear Sarah, You always encourage me regarding Dhamma discussion. You are a good organizer. I like DSG very much. Especially your section on ' useful posts '. It is like a road map. We can navigate through it. For example we can learn Dana ( offering ) with ease. So do in cases of Samadhi, Vinaya, Rupa and so on. '' How To Get Through The Samsara '' is intended to reveal Mahasatipatthana. As it is a wide subject, it needs patience. It may be bitter like medicine. So I posted in between '' Medicine ''. It is a method. A wide range of methods. I first described on breathing matter. Then moved to bodily positions. This contemplation on bodily position may sound depart from ultimate realities. But it is needed for building up a good concentration. Not all people are as good as that I wrote. If so, they all will attain Jhana and Magga easily. Concentration on breathing may be difficult for some. No one is concentrated on the breath all the time including our teacher The Buddha. We as beings have many thing to do. But as oppose to lesser animals and immature beings like young babies, mature meditators are conscious to all their movement including mind movement. When concentrate on breathing, it will be concentrated. But when they want to move into another body position, they have to recognize all mind movement and body movement. Object may be anything for mind. Among 89 states of consciousness, only one state of consciousness can perceive any kind of object including Pannatta ( concepts ) and Nibbana. It is Manodvara Avajjana Citta, contemplator at mind-sense-door. Sitting means nothing. It is Pannatta. Standing means nothing. It is Pannatta. Walking means nothing. It is just Pannatta. Lying means nothing. It is just Pannatta. Still, awareness to these 4 positions works to overcome running away from meditational object. No one can sit since born till death. Even though these are conceptual matter, real meditators know that these are concepts, those are realities and so on. For real practice which is not just thinking and reasoning, one has to be aware of all movement including mind. Even the word 'movement' contains concept. Like digital, there are only two signals. One is on and another is off. Mind is like digital. That is Citta is not permanent. One Citta arises ( it is on ), then immediately falls away ( it is off ). This is digital. On moment again lasts just a mind moment. This is subdivided into three. When on, it is called ' Thi ' Khana or persisting moment. Just before this is Upada or arising moment. Just after is Bangha Khana or falling away moment. All Cittas are digital. They are on and off. So do Cetasikas. But in case of Rupa except Kayavinatti( gesture ) and Vacivinatti( speech ) all Rupa have a lifespan of 17 times Citta ( 17 Cittakkhana ) or 51 Khanas. Rupa are also digital but their on-moment is a bit longer than Citta. But Pannatta is not a reality. Even though it is not a reality, it can still serve as object. Even though there are many digital signal, they all are collectively shape as form, figure, colour, sound and so on. The learned meditator well know that what is real and what is unreal. However, as a method, he has to know all moments and all movements. At the end of a section whether sitting or lying or standing which are still position, the meditator knows that a mind that wishes a change in position arises. He knows that. '..Want to stand..want to move..stretching legs ( Vayo Photthabba arise )..putting foot on the floor ( Tejo or Pathavi or Vayo Photthabba depending on what meditator perceives arises )..' I hope this is clear enough. If still in doubt further discussion will be needed. Thank you very much for your good will, encouragement and your talent in management of web site. I am looking forward to hearing from you regarding Mahasatipatthana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Dear Htoo, I appreciate your reminders about taking the bitter medicine very much. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- Htoo Naing wrote: >Why this has been happening is evident that people are fond of sweet. >May we all take the bitter medicine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On your other series, `How to Get Through The Samsara', I appreciate your sharing with us. Like you say, `Mahasatipatthana is a wide subject'. We went throught the commentaries here in great detail and it would have been helpful to have had your contributions and Abhdidhamma input too. You mention recognizing and knowing `every movement' and clear understanding of `bodily movements' and so on, but these of course are mere conceptual terms and cannot be the objects of awareness as of course you know. As one friend, KenH wrote here recently: .....When the Buddha spoke of 'mindfulness while walking,' he did not mean the kind of mindfulness we share with lesser beings: When dogs and jackals walk, they know they are walking; Also, a baby at the breast knows pleasant feeling. We should not slander the Buddha by suggesting that these commonplace forms of mindfulness [of body and feeling] are the same as his unique, profound teaching: satipatthana. I'd be interested to know whether you agree with these comments that were written on another thread. Thank you for your last clarification (on an Abhidhamma point) to me as well. Metta, Sarah ====== 28078 From: Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:32am Subject: Bhavanga Cittas Hi, all - Quick question: Do bhavanga cittas occur anywhere in the Tipitaka? I have read that they do not, and that the bhavangasota is pretty much of "the same stripe" as the substantialist storehouse consciousness ("alayavijnana") of the Mahayanist Lankavatara Sutra, serving as a "continuity guarantor". Note: There *is* a key difference between the notion of bhavangasota and the Lankavatara Sutra's notion of alayavijnana, namely that the bhavangasota is an interrupted stream which "fills in the gaps," whereas the alayavijnana, like a good substantialist repository or storehouse consciousness is a *container* of seeds and is overlayed by phenomena, a *way* worse substantialist-eternalist notion. As an aside. Kalupahana says that the alayavijnana *of Vasubandhu*, on the other hand, is way more innocent (i.e., nonsubstantialist) than that of the Lankavatara Sutra, being pretty much the ordinary flow of skandhas to which there is clinging (or "mooring"). Now, bhavanga cittas may or may not be mentioned in the Tipitaka, and they may or may not actually occur, but as far as intellectually arguing in favor of them, I see no need for their existence. Conditionality, trans-temporal and simultaneous, can operate without "intervening carriers" (except as we are inclined to demand otherwise!), and, anyway, the notion of gaps between cittas is a Sautrantika invention that need not be accepted to begin with. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28079 From: Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hi, Herman (and Jon) - In a message dated 12/18/03 2:11:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Jon, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > >Herman > > > > > >Come on, Herman. Talk about an experiment tailored to give the > >desired outcome ;-)). > > > ><<< > >Take an object, any object. Let any thoughts about the object go. > >Then become angry about the object. Were you able to feel angry at > >will? Let the anger go. Now feel happy about the object. Were you > >able to feel happy at will? Try applying different mindstates. Does > >it work? > >>>> > > > >Firstly, is it really anger (or feeling happy), or is it an > >approximation of how you feel when angry? > > > > Jon, I think you are talking about doubt here, not anger or > happiness. > > ============================= I think that actual anger can be generated, though usually way milder than what arises "naturally" without self-prompting. But if we were to apply the experiment to a seasoned actor, I suspect the results will be dramatic (pun intended!). An actor can create emotion at will (often by association with memories of events that generated those emotions in the past). The point is that by one means or another one who is practiced in this can cause specific emotions to arise. Volition can be effectively exercised. Why should one think otherwise? [There are always conditions, desire being foremost, that lead to the exercise of volition. But so what? Nothing arises unconditioned, including volition.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28080 From: Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexperienced rupas Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/18/03 3:24:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > My preposition is timeline. What is not observed in the past has now > been observable as according to my previous mail examples. Hence > what is not being observed by our consciouness now does not upright > mean that it is not possible to be observable in the timeless future > in our countless lives. Thus I feel the rupas now unobservable by > us do not mean it does not exist. Lets be open minded, if > commentators say they exist, so there is a possibility they exists. > > > kind regards > Ken O > ========================== Sorry, I don't buy it. Unfelt hardnesses and unseen sights are nonsense to me. I think that the view that such exist is a form of substantialism - they either exist inhering in unexperienced objects (tables etc) or they float free in the Land of Free-Floating Rupas. I don't buy the existence of inherent or free-floating hardnesses or sights. When a hardness or a sight arises it does so as an object of consciousness. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28081 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 54 Hi Larry, op 18-12-2003 01:28 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I wonder how one would characterize an arahant's eye. N: There will be an end to the eye, since he has no more attachment. No more rebirth. There is the Dependant Origination in reverse for the arahat: When there is no more ignorance, no kamma that conditions the arising of nama and rupa at rebirth, there are no more the arising of the six bases, contact, feeling, etc. He has fully realized that birth is dukkha, that the eye is dukkha. Sometimes the Buddha taught the complete dependant Origination, sometimes he taught it in short. Kindred Sayings (IV, 37, Part I, §65, Samiddhi: the same about the other doorways. L: Also, why isn't there an explanation of tangible data? N: These are three of the four Great Elements: Earth, Fire, Wind. First the four great elements were dealt with, and after that the derived rupas. Visible object etc. are the derived rupas. L:Is acid > indigestion a feeling (vedana) or a rupa? N: Rupa conditions painful bodily feeling, and this again can (but not necessarily so) condition unhappy feeling, accompanying aversion. L:What about a fever? N: The four great elements are not balanced, too much heat. This is not a dogma, I just answer spontaneously. I think people of old with Ayur Veda were very wise. L:What about > sensations associated with pregnancy? N: Same, same, the elements are not balanced, and this can condition mental phenomena, certain obsessions. What have you been reading on the medical web. The Jivaka stories in the Vinaya make very good reading. He was the Buddha's physician. The Buddha had too much air element in the body that caused sickness. If you cannot find it, I can look it up for you. Nina. 28082 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 54, visible object Hi Howard, op 18-12-2003 01:39 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: Howard: > So, sense-object is only the objective field, nothing else. This, and the > foregoing material seems to me to say that visible object is nothing but > object of consciousness, which, of course, is my position. I await correction! > ;-)) > What does "therein the diversity of visible data is not to be found elsewhere" > mean? Can you clarify this, Nina? > =============================== N: Yes, it is all right what you say. . Please read on:< it is an object of abundant relish for seeing-consciousness>. Did you see my footnote? The Pali term implies: feasting on the senses. It is a reminder again that what is visible gives rise to papa~nca, obsession. The whole world comes to us through the eyes, we are attached especially where it visible object concerns. That is the meaning of. On account of visible object we become absorbed in the image, in the details, generally more than on account of the other sense objects. I am attached to nature, never tired of looking at fields, streams, trees. Think of reading, if we had no eyes, we could not read, and reading gives rise to a great deal of attachment. Or buying food, we look at it to see whether it is delicious. We understand the sutta: guarding the sensedoors, the eye is mentioned first. It is understanding and mindfulness that do the guarding. They seldom arise. The defilements jump up so sudden, they catch us unaware. But intellectual understanding is an important foundation. It is helpful to know the working of latent tendencies, to know that we cannot expect them to be eradicated before the attainment of enlightenment. But we can notice that there is attachment, conceit, that attachment conditions aversion. People may say, there cannot be awareness when reading, but there can be a beginning of understanding. It is like talking: while talking one can also think of other things, one does not have to stop talking, there are so many cittas arising and falling away very fast. Thus in between talking there can be reflection on different cittas, such as one's attachment, or there can be sati which restraints one from idle chatter or wrong talking. Evenso while reading, we do not have to stop reading while considering in bteween different cittas, feelings, emotions. We talked before on how what has just fallen away can be object of awareness. Cittas roll on exceedingly fast. We read in the "KIndred Sayings"(V, 143, on the Stations of Mindfulness, Ch I, §4, Sala that the Buddha spoke about the four Applications of Mindfulness: The Co has a note to one-pointed: This is what happens. When awareness and right understanding arise, there is one-pointedness (momentary) on the object of awareness, and just for a moment (in between talking, in between reading!) there is calm, because there is kusala citta with understanding arising in between all those akusala moments of being attached, conceited, angry, etc. Nina. 28083 From: Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 54, visible object Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/18/03 1:16:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > op 18-12-2003 01:39 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Howard: > >So, sense-object is only the objective field, nothing else. This, and the > >foregoing material seems to me to say that visible object is nothing but > >object of consciousness, which, of course, is my position. I await > correction! > >;-)) > >What does "therein the diversity of visible data is not to be found > elsewhere" > >mean? Can you clarify this, Nina? > >=============================== > N: Yes, it is all right what you say. > . Please read > on:< it is an object of abundant relish for seeing-consciousness>. Did you > see my footnote? The Pali term implies: feasting on the senses. It is a > reminder again that what is visible gives rise to papa~nca, obsession. The > whole world comes to us through the eyes, we are attached especially where > it visible object concerns. That is the meaning of elsewhere>. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, yes. I agree - the sense of sight is primary (among the non-mind senses) in all ways, and particularly with regard to grasping and obsession. ---------------------------------------------------- On account of visible object we become absorbed in the image, in> > the details, generally more than on account of the other sense objects. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree completely. ----------------------------------------------------- I am> > attached to nature, never tired of looking at fields, streams, trees. Think > of reading, if we had no eyes, we could not read, and reading gives rise to > a great deal of attachment. Or buying food, we look at it to see whether it > is delicious. > We understand the sutta: guarding the sensedoors, the eye is mentioned > first. It is understanding and mindfulness that do the guarding. They seldom > arise. The defilements jump up so sudden, they catch us unaware. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yep! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------ But> > intellectual understanding is an important foundation. It is helpful to know > the working of latent tendencies, to know that we cannot expect them to be > eradicated before the attainment of enlightenment. But we can notice that > there is attachment, conceit, that attachment conditions aversion. People > may say, there cannot be awareness when reading, but there can be a > beginning of understanding. It is like talking: while talking one can also > think of other things, one does not have to stop talking, there are so many > cittas arising and falling away very fast. Thus in between talking there can > be reflection on different cittas, such as one's attachment, or there can be > sati which restraints one from idle chatter or wrong talking. Evenso while > reading, we do not have to stop reading while considering in bteween > different cittas, feelings, emotions. We talked before on how what has just > fallen away can be object of awareness. Cittas roll on exceedingly fast. > We read in the "KIndred Sayings"(V, 143, on the Stations of Mindfulness, Ch > I, §4, Sala that the Buddha spoke about the four Applications of > Mindfulness: transient), ardent, composed and onepointed, of tranquil mind, calmed down, > of concentrated mind, for insight into body as it really is...> > The Co has a note to one-pointed: one-pointed and tranquillized.> This is what happens. When awareness and > right understanding arise, there is one-pointedness (momentary) on the > object of awareness, and just for a moment (in between talking, in between > reading!) there is calm, because there is kusala citta with understanding > arising in between all those akusala moments of being attached, conceited, > angry, etc. > Nina. > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28084 From: Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 54 Hi Nina, I don't understand the difference between tangible data and bodily feeling. If sickness is a rupa, what is the body aspect of bodily feeling? Is there a subtle difference between symptom and pain? What about a burn? A burn hurts. The hurting must be a feeling. What is the rupa, temperature? If bodly feeling arises with every consciousness, does that mean rupa (tangible data) arises with every consciousness? Larry 28085 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:50pm Subject: The development of Wisdom Here's another sniplet of a letter I exchanged with a friend recently: kom: We can only get rid of the misconception by learning more and more about the dhamma. friend: Could you explain how to learn more and more? By listening ,reading,considering or discussing or the other way. Which are your good experiences that make you realise dhamma and have faith in the Buddha and Buddhism. kom: Learning is not theoretical only. With only theoretical understanding of the teaching, one cannot realize the 4 noble truths. There must be awareness of the realities that are arising now, and panna can grow with this awareness. I think the question that is usually puzzling to many people who have just listened to TA Sujin is, how does this awareness + panna come about? Do we have to do anything to do this? Do you know when you are a bit upset, maybe the weather is too hot, that this anger comes about without YOU having to want or create this anger: it comes because of its own condition. Panna is the same way: you don't have to do anything, or want it in order for it to come about: it comes because of its own conditions. The question that we must ask ourselves is, what conditions panna? Is it by sitting? Is it by repeating some word? Is it by lying down? Is it by walking slowly? Without the teaching of the Buddha, would we even be aware that there are only dhammas out there? There are three levels of panna: one from listening, one from wise consideration, and one from the awareness of the realities now. TA Sujin teaches that panna at the listening level conditions panna at the consideration level, and panna at the listening and consideration level condition panna that comes with the awareness of the realities. I believe the Buddha taught this as well (in fact in the first sutta he taught). Do you think this makes any sense? ps: The reason why I have so much confidence in Buddhism is because I have never run into another teaching in my life that speaks such absolute, verifiable truths. Is anger ours? With sati, we can begin to realize, little by little, that anger, a dhamma, is according to what the Buddha teaches --- that it comes about because of its own conditions. The truth is absolute, there can be no dispute of this (because it is verifiable). I haven't found any other teaching that allows me to learn truths that cannot be disputed... kom 28086 From: Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi Hi Michael, I think the sign (nimitta) is a transition to pure concept as object. The closest I could come to something like that with the breath is the idea of air. I get this from Buddhaghosa's explanation of the earth kasina. I think the principles of that explanation could apply to all the meditation objects. One thing that definitely has to be dropped as an object of focus is the in and out of breathing. It's way too busy and physical. Also, I think a *pure* meditative environment is necessary. Hard to find these days. Larry ------------------- Michael: "For a long time doing breath meditation I thought my progress was being thwarted by not seeing a visual sign, this essay definitely comes closer to my experience." 28087 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Sarah and James, I am greatly enjoying your dialogue, please continue. I would like to follow your Devata Samyutta Series. With appreciation, Nina. op 18-12-2003 11:07 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > S: And what is regular life in Samsara’ if it is not this very moment of > seeing, experiencing hardness or thinking about what’s just been seen or > heard? 28088 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Grasping at mind states Dear Sukin, your post is very helpful for all of us, Nina. op 18-12-2003 12:04 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > There are many factors each > contributing all along this long and endless road, the leader of > which is "Rt. View", and this starts with `Theory' ;-). 28089 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:22pm Subject: anapanasati 7 c anapanasati 7 c The Co. to this sutta (ven. Nyanatiloka):... The Co. the uses a simile of a charioteer and horses which are advancing evenly, not overrunning nor holding back. Evenso is equanimity. We then read: The enlightenment factors are included in the fourth Application of Mindfulness, contemplating dhammas in dhammas. They should not be taken for self. We read in the Co to the Satipatthana Sutta (tr. by ven. Soma) about the conditions for the enlightenment factors, and among them is . We read about right reflection in the section on the hindrance of covetousness: This is not merely thinking, it is deeply considering and contemplating with mindfulness of the object that appears and right understanding of its characteristic. We read more about this kind of reflection in the , V, Mahå-vagga, Kindred Sayings on the Limbs of Wisdom, Ch IV, § 8, Restraint and Hindrance. The enlightenment factors are translated here as Limbs of Wisdom. We read: ... At the time, monks, when the Ariyan disciple makes the Norm (Dhamma) his object, gives attention to it, with all his mind considers it, with ready ear listens to the Norm,- at such time the five hindrances exist not in him, at such time these seven limbs of wisdom by cultivation go to fulfilment.> It all begins with listening, considering, and then there are conditions for mindfulness and direct understanding of whatever reality appears. There should be equanimity, evenmindedness and impartiality towards the object that appears. No matter whether the object is greatly disturbing, it can be object of mindfulness. It is conditioned and it has no owner. The enlightenment factors are most important and they should not be neglected. We read in the same section of the Kindred Sayings, Ch II, §8, neglected and undertaken: Nina. 28090 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concept & characteristic Hi Howard, op 18-12-2003 01:24 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Please forgive the "sadhu post," but ... sadhu, sadhu, sadhu! Amazing as you > may find it, I like what you have to say in the following VERY much! (So, > something seriously "bad" must be happening to at least one of us! ;-)) Or bad things may be happening? N:So, in order not to spoil things I should keep out of: bhavanga, floating unobserved rupas (in rupaville) life faculty, heartbase (coming up soon), nutrition, In suspense :-( , Nina. 28091 From: abbott_hk Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Michael, I was just looking for something for Howard on bhavanga cittas when I came across a post I wrote some time back commenting on some of Thanissaro's points on the luminous discussion (I told you recently I couldn't remember reading his comments before;-)). Anyway, you might like to look at post no 10218 (and 10222). No need to pursue this or any thread if you'd like to let them 'rest' for a while. If you'd like to pick them up later, we'll be glad. Metta, Sarah ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Michael: > Your links were extremely useful. It brought to light some aspects I was > unaware. Tks for the trouble in sending all those interesting links. <...> > Michael: > I think it is better to quit for now. I am still siding with the comments > by Thanissaro but think it is not worthwhile pursuing it further. Tks > anyway. 28092 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Sarah When I look at it again, its makes me smile. By the way where is Rob Ep, I have not seen him writing for a very long time. Kind regards Ken O --- abbott_hk wrote: > Hi Michael, > > I was just looking for something for Howard on bhavanga cittas > when I came across a post I wrote some time back commenting > on some of Thanissaro's points on the luminous discussion (I > told you recently I couldn't remember reading his comments > before;-)). > Anyway, you might like to look at post no 10218 (and 10222). > > No need to pursue this or any thread if you'd like to let them > 'rest' > for a while. If you'd like to pick them up later, we'll be glad. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > 28093 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Ken O, It's so nice to have your smiles around again;-) --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Sarah > > When I look at it again, its makes me smile. By the way where is Rob > Ep, I have not seen him writing for a very long time. .... That's a funny thing - as I was writing to Michael about resting the thread and picking it up later if he wished, I was actually thinking of you and remembering how you'd done just this, popping back recently to pursue it after a break of a year or two, but obviously having carefully considered this thread in the meantime;-) ;-) Rob Ep, occasionally drops by to have a brief chat and send everyone good wishes, but he seemed to get busy with his acting book and other things. Hopefully he'll drop by again soon - if anyone is in touch, perhaps they can say we’re asking after him and the luminous thread never dies;-). Howard, I hope Nina, Suan or someone comes back on your bhavanga Q. You may like to review these messages from Nina and Kom in the meantime: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17872 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10444 I’m out of time for more detail or posts. Metta, Sarah ====== 28094 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 0:55am Subject: Re: Grasping at mind states Hi Nina, This post is not helpful to me personally. My initial reaction is feeling rather bad, actually. What you say does not add to or clarify the discussion at all, and you make claims about how the group as a whole considers Sukin's last contribution, a post I am still digesting. Sorry Sukin, I'm butting out of this one. One small victory to theory :-) Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sukin, > your post is very helpful for all of us, > Nina. > op 18-12-2003 12:04 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > > > There are many factors each > > contributing all along this long and endless road, the leader of > > which is "Rt. View", and this starts with `Theory' ;-). 28095 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:37am Subject: How we 'think' we'll act Hello All, I was thinking over something that I experienced during the last week, and wondered if any of us ever knows what we 'really' think, and what we are really like - as opposed to what we think we think. What I mean is - we can feel totally certain that we understand a little of the Buddha's teachings and believe that this will/should influence how we act, feel and think in certain stressful situations. But I'm not sure it does. Last week, after a routine trip to the doctor, I suddenly found myself sent to a specialist and then briefly into a hospital within a few days for "tests". I had always thought that, with even the very little I understand of the Buddha's teachings, I would be calm and mature and face 'whate'er betide' in the future with serenity and peace. Well, so much for the script. There was no serenity and peace. My 'outside' looked calm and mature, but 'inside' was chaos and fear. I have been regularly reflecting on the five facts in the Upajjhatthana Sutta AN v.57 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-057.html These reflections may or may not have been of any benefit, but I noted a distinct feeling when I was in the middle of my worry about future possibilities and suppositions, of 'But these can't really refer to me ... not me'. I can recall a more rapid heartbeat, and mixed feelings of anxiety, and unreality. I'm actually quite disappointed in myself - I was only briefly a little nauseous from the tests, nothing was any different from a week prior to even knowing I needed the tests. And nothing is any different now, a week after the tests show all is well. I wonder now how I would endure long standing pain or illness. I recall how with MahaMoggallana, even when the kamma of the past ripened so suddenly and terribly, it could only affect his body but could not shake his mind. And I wonder how does an ordinary unenlightened disciple of the Buddha prepare for and endure such an eventuality? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28096 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:05am Subject: Formal Practice or not. was Re: Grasping at mind states Hi Herman and all, Yesterday I had made up my mind to start a new thread, encouraged by Howard's and especially James' response to Sarah's post on the "Question on ego and self .." thread. I liked James' tone and thought that I was coming to better understand his position and that it might be a good time to pursue this topic in a separate thread. I had in fact started composing a post and written a bit, but I had to rush out for a lunch appointment. The lunch was bad, not the food, but I was offered a business opportunity which I was not in a position to take, and it was given by someone whom I once refused a few years ago for another project and which is one of my biggest regrets in life. So it was an afternoon with all three poisons being conditioned to the full. By the time I came back to my computer, akusala cittas had completely exhausted me. And then I saw your response to me and so I decided to drop the other post and instead write to you only. But now I wish to do so again. So Herman I invite you and James, Howard, Htoo, Victor and everyone else who *do* meditate or believe in "conscious effort and intention to practice" to discuss this as best and we all can. I would like those who *do not* believe in any kind of "formal" pratice to join in. I can't quote anything, and I have little time compared, besides next week I will be going on a vacation for a few days. Also because I tend to get preachy or boldly assert, I need more mature minds to take over when necessary. So Sarah and other's, I need your help please. Let us try to make things more clear for ourselves as well as for the other. I think it is important to get it right, the difference at this point may seem quite small, since both sides similarly quote the Tipitaka, and this can obscure the more fundamental difference, I think. And I believe it is the difference of 'facing different directions' which in the long run will lead each to be quite apart from the other, though maybe not in this life, since the Tipitaka will still available. And of course the one who is wrong will not know it anyway.;-) I don't know at this point where to start or what precise question to ask. To ask if Buddha taught formal practice or not, surely one is not going to appeal to history, since I think the primary reason for the Tipitaka to exist is the "Teachings", not the facts about the Buddha's life and what the people of his time did. So we need to study his Teachings as a whole, and realizing that not everyone accepts the Abhidhamma, I am willing to leave it out. What do you think? Sarah, what is your opinion? Do you have any suggestions? I'll sign off here. Metta, Sukin. ps: Herman, does 'victory' mean anything to anybody? ;-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > Hi Nina, > > This post is not helpful to me personally. My initial reaction is > feeling rather bad, actually. What you say does not add to or > clarify the discussion at all, and you make claims about how the > group as a whole considers Sukin's last contribution, a post I am > still digesting. > > Sorry Sukin, I'm butting out of this one. One small victory to > theory :-) > > Herman > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > Dear Sukin, > > your post is very helpful for all of us, > > Nina. > > op 18-12-2003 12:04 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op > sukinder@k...: > > > > > There are many factors each > > > contributing all along this long and endless road, the leader of > > > which is "Rt. View", and this starts with `Theory' ;-). 28097 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexperienced rupas Hi Howard Thanks for pointing out your point of view on why you dont buy the idea. First lets address the inherent issue. If I have not forgetton, correct me if I am wrong, your stand is equating independent to self, a substantialism, which I interpret as without causes and conditions. Let me clarify that this set of rupa conditioned each other to arise, they cannot arise on their own. (how come - I also dont know bc it is say so by the commentators). Moreover, rupa in our physical body cannot be independent, as our body rupas are caused and contioned by the four nutriment (physical, contact, volition and citta). I think I also like to clarify that when a hardness arises it is a characteristic of the rupa not to be mistaken as somekind of independent essence of a rupa. Secondly - Land of free floating rupas. You also know that only one rupa from a set of the four Great elements can be experienced one at a time, your question what happens to the other three (bc this will mean a substantialism concept). To me they will fall away and cease. To me there is no more free floating rupas hanging around which is independent and without cause after the one is become an object of citta. kind regards Ken O > ========================== > Sorry, I don't buy it. Unfelt hardnesses and unseen sights > are > nonsense to me. I think that the view that such exist is a form of > substantialism - > they either exist inhering in unexperienced objects (tables etc) or > they float > free in the Land of Free-Floating Rupas. I don't buy the existence > of inherent > or free-floating hardnesses or sights. When a hardness or a sight > arises it > does so as an object of consciousness. > > With metta, > Howard > 28098 From: ashkenn2k Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:41am Subject: Re: Grasping at mind states Hi Herman > There is more danger in a wordling reading a compendium of the > Abhidhamma, then there is in a wordling sitting on his bum. The > Abhidhamma comes after enlightenment. Sitting on your bum comes > before (Buddha's example, not mine) k: I laugh when you write this example. I curious if sitting on a butt and concentrating on one object can bring us to Nibbana then there could be many candidates in Ripley's believe me or not where pple can withstand extreme heat and cold using meditation. > If the penny is going to drop, there is only one requirement, and > that is a willingness for it to happen. The willingness underscores > an understanding that the understanding doesn't come from anything > controllable. Willingness and non-participation go hand in hand. The mind is occupied with what you feed it. If you feed the mind with theory, that is what you will be regurgitating. If you don't feed your mind, you are allowing the penny to start it's downward > journey. No contribution required, except for willingness. k: It is not us that give a lot of theory, you can attribute it to Buddha and he has so many sutta that it takes so many days just to finish them. It is him who say here guard the senses, he is the one who always tell us to investigate impermance and anatta of the five aggregates. He is the one who always say restrain, abundant, relinquish, so many others, so many theories but one essence :). So how are we going to not to *think* or theorized with what he say. kind regards Ken O 28099 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:06am Subject: Formal Practice or not Hi Sukin, You are a very brave man :-), but I am happy to contribute in good faith. As a very preliminary starting point I would like to ask about the following: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > I don't know at this point where to start or what precise question > to ask. To ask if Buddha taught formal practice or not, surely one > is not going to appeal to history, since I think the primary reason > for the Tipitaka to exist is the "Teachings", not the facts about > the Buddha's life and what the people of his time did. To divorce the Buddha's insights from the consequences of those insights at a practical level will make any discussion less useful than it can be, in my opinion. There is the hint of a suggestion in the above that formal practice is just what people did in those days. Leading the witness, my lord , and all that. Wouldn't it be better for that to be discussed than assumed? > > ps: Herman, does 'victory' mean anything to anybody? ;-) > I really don't know about others, Sukin. It doesn't mean anything to me, except for when I'm playing squash against my kids :-) All the best Herman 28100 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:34am Subject: More questions Dear Everyone: Please, I have a few more questions that I would like someone to answer, can you guys answer them? 1. How can a person turn into a god? 2. What would happen to you if you do not believe in Buddhism? 3. Does the Buddha have a bible? 4. What do monks do? 5. How do people pray? 6. Is Buddhism popular amongst Caucasians? 7. What else have you to tell me about Buddhism? Anyway, wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new year! Philip Chui 28101 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:36am Subject: Ho! Ho! HO! Merry X'mas!!! Dear James, Ho! Ho! HO! Merry X'mas!! Did the Buddha celebrate christmas? What did the Buddha do at christmas? Is there any special food that the Buddha and his men eat in different festivals/seasons? What did you mean when you said "The Buddha wanted to know if there was any way to stop this process?" Looking forward to the x'mas holidays. Wish you all the best in the new coming year! Metta, Sandy 28102 From: Sarah Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Medicine Dear Htoo, Thank you so much for all your kind comments and helpful further detail on the satipatthana points. I very much look forward to more discussion, but need to wait til after the weekend. Pls be patient with me. Metta, Sarah p.s As you kindly mentioned the U.P., if you have any free time, I'd also be glad if you'd care to look at any of the saved posts under 'Satipatthana Sutta and Commentaries' in U.P.(any any others under satipatthana....) and add any comments on any of these too. Threads are never dead here;-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ====== 28103 From: Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] concept & characteristic Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/19/03 12:24:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > N:So, in order not to spoil things I should keep out of: > bhavanga, > floating unobserved rupas (in rupaville) > life faculty, > heartbase (coming up soon), > nutrition, > In suspense :-( , > Nina. > ========================== Well, inasmuch as I always look out for the welfare particularly of those I hold in especially high estimation, I would be very concerned were you to frequent such unsavory places as Bhavanga Town and Rupaville, because the sorts of entities that inhabit those dangerous locations seriously threaten one's life faculty and at least cause considerable damage to the heart base. But if you should venture there, please be sure to fortify yourself in advance with sufficient nutrition. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28104 From: Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/19/03 1:34:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Howard, I hope Nina, Suan or someone comes back on your bhavanga Q. You > may like to review these messages from Nina and Kom in the meantime: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17872 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10444 > ======================== Thanks for the references. I just reread them. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28105 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] concept & characteristic Hi Howard Nice names you give "Bhavanga Town and Rupaville" Cheers :) Ken O 28106 From: Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexperienced rupas Hi, Ken - I really have little of value to give in reply to this kind post of yours. The only matter I think I'll comment on at this time is your statement "I think I also like to clarify that when a hardness arises it is a characteristic of the rupa not to be mistaken as somekind of independent essence of a rupa." Actually, I don't think that hardnesses are characteristics of rupas, but *are* rupas (of a specific sort). And I don't think that a hardness has an "essence". It is what it is, and it arises in dependence on the coming together of appropriate conditions, one of which is sentience. Without such conditions, it would never appear, and is, thus, it is nothing in-and-of-itself. That is what makes it anatta. It "exists" in a way and for a time, but not independently, not as a self-existent entity. With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/19/03 6:24:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > Thanks for pointing out your point of view on why you dont buy the > idea. > > First lets address the inherent issue. If I have not forgetton, > correct me if I am wrong, your stand is equating independent to self, > a substantialism, which I interpret as without causes and conditions. > Let me clarify that this set of rupa conditioned each other to > arise, they cannot arise on their own. (how come - I also dont know > bc it is say so by the commentators). Moreover, rupa in our physical > body cannot be independent, as our body rupas are caused and > contioned by the four nutriment (physical, contact, volition and > citta). I think I also like to clarify that when a hardness arises > it is a characteristic of the rupa not to be mistaken as somekind of > independent essence of a rupa. > > > Secondly - Land of free floating rupas. You also know that only one > rupa from a set of the four Great elements can be experienced one at > a time, your question what happens to the other three (bc this will > mean a substantialism concept). To me they will fall away and cease. > To me there is no more free floating rupas hanging around which is > independent and without cause after the one is become an object of > citta. > > > kind regards > Ken O > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28107 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hi James, I'm enjoying the pleasant banter too;-) James 2: I'm glad. From reading the posts of Nina and Sukin I see that we are not the only ones enjoying it so I guess I will continue. Back by popular demand! ;-) --- buddhatrue@y... wrote: > James: Hmm we seem to be on a race here! ;-) Pretty soon we will > outpace those cittas! ;-). ... S:That will take some racing and outpacing! ;-) .... S:> Anatta. No self. No control. > ..... > James: Sarah, this is where you and I differ greatly. Now, I > am not stating that you are wrong and that I am right, because I know > that neither one of us truly comprehends anatta (non self): But I > feel that you too often take an extremist view on this subject. I > believe that it is important when looking at anything, be it the > Buddha's teaching or just regular life in Samsara, ..... S: And what is `regular life in Samsara' if it is not this very moment of seeing, experiencing hardness or thinking about what's just been seen or heard? No suffering if no clinging to present name-and- form (namas and rupas). Failing to appreciate this, we'll continue to be `the withered up fools' as I see it. .... James 2: Right, and I believe that the only difference between Samsara and Nibbana is simply living in the present moment without clinging to any phenomena (dhammas). However, this cannot just be done at will. It isn't enough to just think "Oh, there is no self; there is only the present moment; there are only transient phenomena." That is just a belief. It is a good belief and a true belief but having it doesn't change anything. Can people remind themselves of this fact millions of times a second? No. And, to me, that is what it would take to make any difference in wisdom and understanding. It isn't enough to have this belief; it has to be known for oneself, to be directly experienced. The only way to do that is to have a mind which can really focus and concentrate on the present moment; and the only way to develop that, for most people, is to practice Buddhist meditation. This is what I believe and I am pretty sure it is what the Buddha taught and intended (It would have been nice if he had been really, really specific so that no questions could ever be raised about this subject, but specifics wouldn't have fit everyone and every situation). James: > to maintain > the `Middle Path' in attitude. Even though there is no self that > doesn't mean that there is no control; conversely, there isn't > absolute control either. I believe that the truth is somewhere in > the middle of those two extremes. <...> .... The Middle Path - the development of satipatthana at this very moment. Devatasamyutta, 111 A Sword 21 (1): [The Blessed One:] "As if smitten by a sword, As if his head were on fire, A bhikkhu should wander mindfully To abandon Identity view." It may sound extreme, but the middle path is the understanding and mindfulness of present dhammas - on fire with ignorance, attachment and wrong view of self. However, I appreciate the reminders about attitude, thank you;-) .... James 2: Sarah, I wasn't giving you any reminders about your attitude! LOL! Sorry if it seemed that way. Okay, let us look carefully at what the Buddha said here. The Buddha said, "The bhikkhu should wander mindfully to abandon Identity view." Now, you take that to mean that the bhikkhu should wander mindful that he has no identity, he has no self. I don't take it that way at all. I believe that the Buddha is saying that the Bhikkhu should be mindful of everything that occurs, right at this very moment, as if he had been stabbed with a sword or his head was on fire and his life depended on it. Nothing will bring a person to the present moment like an emergency! However, being mindful of non self isn't truly being mindful, it is a belief. How can a person be mindful of what he doesn't know yet? That type of mindfulness is an artificial, mental construct and is not what the Buddha intended, I believe. It is also not a mental construct that inspires a sense of emergency; heck, to you it inspires a belief that there is no control. Since there is no one to do anything about it, one might as well die on the sword or let the head burn up! LOL! (just kidding). > James: Frankly, I have no idea what you are talking about. > Concentration isn't a natural feature of consciousness moments; > concentration is a way to describe successive consciousness moments. > Yes, each citta will have but one object but that doesn¡|t mean that > it is concentrated, that is just its nature. .... S: Even when we are speaking harshly or enjoying an ice-cream, for example, there are repeated moments of concentration on the object along with unpleasant or pleasant feelings, attention to detail and so on. So we see that concentration does not only arise with `good' cittas. .... James 2: I don't believe that right concentration is ever present when there are pleasant or unpleasant feelings. Right concentration needs to be accompanied by equanimity or it isn't right concentration. Sure, I could concentrate really hard on killing someone (like my landlady! Heheh..Just kidding ;-) but that wouldn't be right concentration and it wouldn't develop wisdom. Conversely, I could concentrate really hard on winning the lottery but that wouldn't be right concentration and wouldn't create wisdom either. Even when concentration practice,like jhana, create good feelings those feelings must be abandoned to develop further wisdom; this is the secret that the Buddha discovered. To me, the various things I concentrate on during the day don't create any wisdom for the simple fact that I cling to the object/thought, abhor the object/thought, or judge the object/thought to be unimportant. For me, right concentration only occurs when I am meditating on a neutral object, like the sensation of the breath or a candle flame, and my concentration is accompanied by equanimity. From this practice, I will more naturally develop equanimity when experiencing everyday events and then have right mindfulness. From my understanding, this is the true way to destroy the fetters, cease to create kamma, and become enlightened. I am not enlightened yet because old habits die hard!! I am lucky if I even have a few moments of right concentration in a single meditation session. And because I don't have that much right concentration I don't have that much right mindfulness in my daily life. I would be the first to admit that I am one flawed individual! ;-) But, hey, I keep trying…that is all I can do. James: >Single raindrops are > not a river but if enough of them come together, they will form a > river and an ocean. That is concentration. It is with the power of > this concentration that the world can be investigated, the `self' can > be investigated, and the truth can be known. .... S: How will it be known whether this kind of concentration is good or bad? Is it always `good' when you meditate? How about now? I mean there are rivers and rivers;-) .... James 2: I will know when the concentration is right because it is accompanied by equanimity; which will make the concentration even stronger! Concentration with any kind of feelings or reactions doesn't last very long and will continually jump around from object to object. No, I don't always have right concentration when I meditate or I would have become enlightened by now. See above comments. James:(Sorry I am starting to > sound like some kind of Buddhist motivational speaker! LOL! ;-) I > don¡|t have the `rational presentation' ability that Howard has ;-). .... S: LOL too! Maybe we need to read more books on phenomenology;-) .... James 2: Maybe so. I really respect Howard because he has a deep level of equanimity; I can tell. <..> James: >I believe that you > have misinterpreted this kind of speech to mean that insight can be > developed in everyday life with no outside effort whatsoever. I > really don¡|t think it is that easy, but I wish it was. .... S:Not easy - bitter medicine repeatedly as the subject heading suggests;-) .... James 2: Okay, here we finally agree! ;-) > James: Gosh Sarah, it is nothing personal. I really respect > and admire you and your dedication to the dhamma or I wouldn't spend > my time writing posts to you (I could be out looking at those > pyramids or something! LOL!). .... S:Thanks James - a great compliment - also to your keen interest in the dhamma;-) .... James: >I really don't understand how you > determine `wise' and `unwise' moments of fleeting concentration; > maybe this is some kind of Abhidhamma thing? I am not able to > determine such things. Of course I could slap superficial labels on > my various mind moments and call some of them `wise' and then > others `unwise', but I choose not to do that. .... S: One drop at a time. Being honest about our great ignorance as you are is very important. It's not a matter of slapping on labels or of even knowing `various mind moments' but just beginning to understand a little about various dhammas or characteristics when they appear now: annoyance, frustration, distraction, sounds, thinking and so on. Realities which experience an object such as hearing and thinking are namas and realiies which are experienced such as visible objects and sounds are rupas. No self, no labels needed. .... James 2: Okay, I just think those drops are fewer and father between without concentration and mindfulness practice. James:>Enlightenment can come > from some of the most unexpected moments: Ven. Ananda became > enlightened in midair when he was about to lie down to rest. You > just never know. Set up the right conditions and amazing things can > happen. (Sorry¡Kmotivation speaker again ;-). ... S: So what are the right conditions for enlightenment? The good friend (s), Hearing dhamma, wise consideration etc. ... James 2: Yes, these are important factors because they help to condition right concentration and right mindfulness. Perhaps with those few exceptional individuals just those things you list would be enough. The power of concentration and mindfulness is already there and they just need a few more right conditions. I know that for myself I am not that fortunate. I must strive diligently for every tiny scrap of wisdom that I can gain. I work so hard at it because I know that I have a lot of hard work to do. If you are the type of person with sufficient concentration and mindfulness powers that: good friends, hearing the dhamma, and wise consideration is enough then I am really happy for you! I am just the dunce sitting at the back of the class! ;-)) And so I sit…and sit…and sit… > James: Wow, I seemed to have really piqued your interest in the > Devatasamyutta of SN; I am pleased about that. I just recently > discovered it myself and I am glad you share my enthusiasm. I will > try your experiment and report back when I feel the time is right. .... S: I'll look forward to that. Meanwhile, we could look at one chapter or section of SN together per week if you're interested. I think there are 56 chapters, so it'll only take just over a year;-) I'd appreciate the prompting, esp. if you start each one with a sutta extract and a few comments;-);-) .... James 2: This is a good suggestion but this list is already quite busy as it is. I can't believe the number of posts everyday from this group! Also, Larry is already doing a quite nice series which I ardently follow. His posts have slowed down as of late and I am not quite sure why. Maybe because of lack of response? I read everything but don't respond because I want to absorb each small piece. And he asks such deep questions about the various sections that usually only Jon is brave enough to venture some answers! ;-) I hope that he doesn't interpret lack of response as lack of interest. I for one am interested and appreciate his efforts. > At this point I am not overly impressed by any individual moments > of `right understanding' I might have, they are like individual > raindrops to me; I am looking for the grand stream. ... James, individual rain drops are how a grand stream begins and are very precious. If we're greedy and always looking for the grand stream, we're bound to be swept along by attachment and wrong view. James 2: Hmmm, this is an interesting idea. I don't really think that I am being greedy by wanting the grand stream; I just feel that anything less isn't enough. Sure I appreciate every little drop of wisdom, and I want them to collect over time, but I also want the dam to break and the skies to just pour…to carry me to the other side of the shore. (Okay, this metaphor is getting out of hand! LOL! ;-)) I don't think that I can just passively expect this to happen or that just by will power alone I am going to be able to see the ultimate reality of the present moment. I have to create the right conditions for this to happen. For me, Buddhist meditation is one of those right conditions. And sorry, but I don't think the Abhidhamma adequately describes the present moment either. Sure, it has some good parts and some truths, but it also has some falsehoods I believe (rupa being a significant one). One more sutta that is relevant to other threads on conventional and ultimate realities and the use of common language: Devatasamyutta, 25 (5) The Arahant "If a bhikkhu is an arahant, Consummate, with taints destroyed, One who bears his final body, Would he still say, `I speak'? And would he say, `They speak to me'?" "If a bhikkhu is an arahant, Consummate, with taints destroyed, One who bears his final body, He might still say, `I speak.' And hemight say, `They speak to me.' Skilful, knowing the world's parlance, He uses such terms as mere expressions." [Note: Vohaaramattena so vohareyya. Spk: "Although arahants have abandoned talk that implies belief in a self,they do not violate conventional discourse by saying, `The aggregates eat, the aggregates sit, the aggregates' bowl, the aggregates' robe'; for no one would understand them."} James 2: Yes, I really liked this part also. It does point to the ultimate reality of anatta. It is funny because when I read those sections…and I also looked at the notes…I thought to myself, "Oh, those DSGers would just love this!" ;-)) I store all kinds of little things like that in my mind for a rainy day (darn, there goes that metaphor again ;-)! Metta and appreciation for all your useful and interesting comments. Sarah ===== Metta and appreciation for your hospitality and friendliness, James 28108 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 54, bodyconsciousness Hi Larry, op 19-12-2003 01:29 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I don't understand the difference between tangible data and bodily > feeling. N: tangible data are: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion and pressure, they are rupas that can impinge on bodysense that is also rupa and that is ready, fit, for impact. Bodily feeling: this accompanies the vipakacitta that is bodyconsciousness. Bodyconsciousness arises in a process of cittas which experience tangible object. Feeling accompanying bodyconsciousness also experiences that object in its own way, it experiences the taste of the object. It can be pleasant feeling or painful feeling, depending on the object experienced. It cannot be indifferent feeling. The reason is that when tangible object impinges, the impact is more violent, compared to the impact of the other sense objects. L: If sickness is a rupa, what is the body aspect of bodily > feeling? N: When we speak aboput sickness we use conventional terms to denote a situation. We cannot say, sickness is a rupa. There are rupas conditioning namas and namas conditioning rupas. L: Is there a subtle difference between symptom and pain? N: Pain is painful feeling accompanying body-consciousness. It has a characteristic if that is what you mean by symptom. We know when there is pain when it is strong. But, since it is only a very short moment of vipakacitta within a process, it is gone before we realize it. Akusala citta with aversion and unhappy (mental) feeling arises and we are bound to confuse cittas and feelings, not realizing that vipaka moments are different from akusala moments that arise immediately after the vipaka moments. L:What > about a burn? A burn hurts. The hurting must be a feeling. What is the > rupa, temperature? N: Yes, there is impact of heat. It can cause painful feeling, and beware: akusala citta with aversion and mental unhappy feeling. L: If bodily feeling arises with every consciousness, does that mean rupa > (tangible data) arises with every consciousness? N: That could not be so. When you are seeing, you could not experience a tangible object at the same time. It seems so because cittas in different processes arise and fall away very rapidly. Only one object at a time is experienced by citta. Body-door process of cittas is different from eye-door process of cittas. Different objects impinging on different sensebases are experienced by the cittas of these processes. Each process is demarcated by bhavangacittas, cittas that do not experience objects through the different doorways. The processes are quite distinct but it sure is difficult for us to know this by direct experience. I understand your question, wondering why there is not continuously impact on the body while we are moving about in a day. There are countless moments of them in between the experience of objects through the other doorways. Just for a short moment, but we do not notice it. They are accompanied by either painful bodily feeling or pleasant bodily feeling, but, we do not notice these when they are of a slight degree. Evenso, we do not notice all the different moments of seeing and hearing in a day, we are so used to them, we take them for granted. After the ear-door process there has to be a mind-door process of cittas experiencing sound, but it is not always followed by other mind-door processes that think of the origin of the sound, or the meaning of the sound. Thus, hearing-consciousness hears the sound, but after that there is no special attention to is. Remember the example: we record a lecture on a tape and do not pay attention to other sounds, but afterwards when listening we notice that there were loud noises in the background. There are many moments of body-consciousness but there is not all the time a special interest in it, cittas that dwell on it. The senses are ready or fit for impact of the appropriate object, but it depends on kamma and other conditioning factors whether it is time to experience a particular sense object. Seeing, body-consciousness etc. are results of kamma. And as said, often there is no special interest in the object experienced through the senses. Such processes just pass. Nina. 28109 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavanga town Hi Howard, ;-)) ;-)) ;-)) Priceless, you have them all, a good way of learning Abhidhamma, something for Icaro!! Some remarks from bhavangatown after the weekend, see my post to Herman. Nina. op 19-12-2003 15:51 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ========================== > Well, inasmuch as I always look out for the welfare particularly of > those I hold in especially high estimation, I would be very concerned were you > to frequent such unsavory places as Bhavanga Town and Rupaville, because the > sorts of entities that inhabit those dangerous locations seriously threaten > one's life faculty and at least cause considerable damage to the heart base. > But > if you should venture there, please be sure to fortify yourself in advance > with > sufficient nutrition. 28110 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feeling bad and music. to Herman. Hi Herman, This was just personal, I did not intend to speak for the group. But I am sorry if it was unpleasant to you, I apologize. I hope you will not feel bad for long, it passes!! But you and I, hey, should we not rather talk about music? How is your organ getting on? I am rehearsing for two houseconcerts this weekend, Frescobaldi, Telemann, on Tenor recorder. You know, we have to organize a birthday party for my father: 103 years old. He will have a cake with three candles. A lot of work this weekend and not much time for Emails. Best wishes, Nina. op 19-12-2003 09:55 schreef Egberdina op hhofman@t...: > Hi Nina, > > This post is not helpful to me personally. My initial reaction is > feeling rather bad, actually. 28111 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:43pm Subject: Re: The development of Wisdom Dear Kom, Hello, hope you are well. This morning, I got onto dsg. for a quick read before I go to yoga, looking for a little inspiration and here it is. I like to have these reminders every day, they are so helpful. Pariyatti must come before there is any development of right understanding, otherwise in ignorance, how could we possibly know what are paramatta dhammas. A good time for my question. I have been thinking about Panna and Saddha. We are told that Panna without Saddha can lead to craftiness, and that too much Saddha without Panna can lead to blind faith. How would craftiness and blind faith appear, what are their characteristics? BTW, Seasons greetings to you, Kom. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Here's another sniplet of a letter I exchanged with a friend recently: > > > kom: We can only get rid of the misconception by learning more and more > about the dhamma. > > friend: Could you explain how to learn more and more? By listening > ,reading,considering or discussing or the other way. Which are your good > experiences that make you realise dhamma and have faith in the Buddha and > Buddhism. > > kom: > > Learning is not theoretical only. With only theoretical understanding of > the teaching, one cannot realize the 4 noble truths. There must be > awareness of the realities that are arising now, and panna can grow with > this awareness. I think the question that is usually puzzling to many > people who have just listened to TA Sujin is, how does this awareness + > panna come about? Do we have to do anything to do this? Do you know when > you are a bit upset, maybe the weather is too hot, that this anger comes > about without YOU having to want or create this anger: it comes because of > its own condition. Panna is the same way: you don't have to do anything, or > want it in order for it to come about: it comes because of its own > conditions. The question that we must ask ourselves is, what conditions > panna? Is it by sitting? Is it by repeating some word? Is it by lying > down? Is it by walking slowly? Without the teaching of the Buddha, would > we even be aware that there are only dhammas out there? > > There are three levels of panna: one from listening, one from wise > consideration, and one from the awareness of the realities now. TA Sujin > teaches that panna at the listening level conditions panna at the > consideration level, and panna at the listening and consideration level > condition panna that comes with the awareness of the realities. I believe > the Buddha taught this as well (in fact in the first sutta he taught). Do > you think this makes any sense? > > ps: The reason why I have so much confidence in Buddhism is because I have > never run into another teaching in my life that speaks such absolute, > verifiable truths. Is anger ours? With sati, we can begin to realize, > little by little, that anger, a dhamma, is according to what the Buddha > teaches --- that it comes about because of its own conditions. The truth is > absolute, there can be no dispute of this (because it is verifiable). I > haven't found any other teaching that allows me to learn truths that cannot > be disputed... > > kom 28112 From: Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 54, body consciousness Hi Nina, When I asked if tangible data accompanies every consciousness I meant does it accompany consciousness in the company of vedana. Does vedana accompany every consciousness? Is that vedana always bodily feeling? In order for there to be bodily feeling does there have to be tangible data? I know there is sometimes mental feeling, but let's leave that aside for now. Take the example of anxiety that is accompanied by unpleasant internal tension. The unpleasantness is vedana (feeling), the tension is rupa, and the anxiety is a mental formation (sankhara). Actually, I'm finding it very difficult to experience the characteristic of mental formations in general. I can identify the feeling and the rupa and there is often discursive thinking (a story) seemingly associated with these but I can't find the mental formation (like, dislike, bewilderment) itself. I wonder if this has something to do with mental formations being formations. Are they like a carriage in which there is no actual carriage itself? I am pretty sure I am bewildered but I can't actually say, "aHA! there is bewilderment." Larry 28113 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexperienced rupas Hi Howard I apologise for taken your valuable time in replying my post. Notwithstanding I like to clarity hardnesss which I get it from Rupa materials written by Nina "The Element of Earth (in Pali: pathavi dhatu), which has been translated into English as “solidity” or “extension”, has the characteristic of hardness or softness." kind regards Ken O --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > I really have little of value to give in reply to this kind > post of > yours. The only matter I think I'll comment on at this time is your > statement "I > think I also like to clarify that when a hardness arises it is a > characteristic of the rupa not to be mistaken as somekind of > independent essence of a > rupa." Actually, I don't think that hardnesses are characteristics > of rupas, but > *are* rupas (of a specific sort). And I don't think that a hardness > has an > "essence". It is what it is, and it arises in dependence on the > coming together of > appropriate conditions, one of which is sentience. Without such > conditions, > it would never appear, and is, thus, it is nothing > in-and-of-itself. That is > what makes it anatta. It "exists" in a way and for a time, but not > independently, not as a self-existent entity. > > With metta, > Howard > 28114 From: Date: Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexperienced rupas Hi, Ken - Pathavi dhatu, or earth element, is nothing other than hardness or softness to some degree or other. That's what it is. Some occurrences are more to the hardness end, some are more to the softness end, but there is no *substance* which is earth element having a "characteristic" of hardness or softness. There is just the phenomenon, in varying degrees, of hardness/softness. With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/19/03 8:20:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > I apologise for taken your valuable time in replying my post. > > Notwithstanding I like to clarity hardnesss which I get it from Rupa > materials written by Nina > "The Element of Earth (in Pali: pathavi dhatu), which has been > translated into English as “solidityâ€? or “extensionâ€?, has the > characteristic of hardness or softness." > > > > kind regards > Ken O > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28115 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 54, bewilderment Hi Larry, so long as we are not enlightened we all are bewildered!!! Good points, occasion for reflection and while trying to formulate it helps me too. After the weekend I like to pay special attention to your points. Nina. op 20-12-2003 01:23 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I am pretty sure I am bewildered but I can't > actually say, "aHA! there is bewilderment." 28116 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] How we 'think' we'll act Dear Christine, Your post really moved me, and it gives food for thought. First of all, I am really glad your test came out O.K. The sutta Upajjhatthana Sutta AN v.57, is one of my favorites, going straight to the heart. As John Kelly, our Pali teacher said, he meditates on it every day: He said that I will need this sutta, I liked his insistance. Since Lodewijk and I are both growing old, I have to reflect: all that is near and dear to me is subject to variableness. Am I prepared? No. op 19-12-2003 10:37 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: I had always > thought that, with even the very little I understand of the Buddha's > teachings, I would be calm and mature and face 'whate'er betide' in > the future with serenity and peace. Well, so much for the script. > There was no serenity and peace. N: So human. What gets me too is that our reactions are so unforeseeable. When there is something that upsets me, before I know the tears spring into my eyes, almost automatically. Where is the calm Dhamma person? And when we hear: now you see it is all uncontrollable, you see the anattaness, it does not seem to help much. Or we hear: just conditions. Lodewijk gets upset and irritated when he hears this. C: . I'm actually quite > disappointed in myself N: Yes, I recognize this. And how!!! C: I recall how with > MahaMoggallana, even when the kamma of the past ripened so suddenly > and terribly, it could only affect his body but could not shake his > mind. And I wonder how does an ordinary unenlightened disciple of > the Buddha prepare for and endure such an eventuality? N: Realizing more and more how unforeseeable our reactions are, we cannot prepare very much. It is as it is. What helps me personally is going to the root of our defilements. As I mentioned, knowing more about the latent tendencies that can only be eradicated by lokuttara cittas. It helps to a certain extent to know where the akusala citta that suddenly arises comes from. Where is the calm Dhamma person: I realize that there is a great deal of conceit here. And clinging how we would like to be. When we are upset about people or events it is again defilement and this is also be caused by the latent tendency of conceit, why does this have to happen to *me*. And personality beief, wrong view. We do not have to prepare ourselves, but when we see more clearly our defilements it will make us come to realize increasingly their disadvantages and dangers. Even the level of pariyatti, intellectial understanding is most helpful. When time comes pariyatti can condition right awareness and right understanding. That is why Moggallana could stand anything. Nina. 28117 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:19am Subject: Anicca (Impermanence) Dear Group, Sabbe sankhaaraa aniccaa means 'all formations are impermanent'. This is commonsense, we see it in everything from emotions, to ice, to the pyramids - nothing lasts forever, eventually all things crumble and deteriorate. Nyanatiloka gives a quote from the Visuddhimagga "Impermanency of things is the rising, passing and changing of things, or the disappearance of things that have become or arisen. The meaning is that these things never persist in the same way, but that they are vanishing dissolving from moment to moment. (Vic. VII, 3 I can see thoughts and emotions arising and vanishing from moment to moment. But I am doubtful about other things - it doesn't seem to fit my experience. And I can't find in the Suttas a reference to change occuring at the same steady and continuous rate for diverse things. Couldn't it be feasible for change to occur in fits and starts, not in a smooth and continuous succession? That some things might last for a while? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 28118 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) - and other questions Hi Christine, That some things might last for a while? - When I see this I laugh bc I am also like that, I do have the tendency to hope some things to last for a while, just a litter longer even though I know all is going away. Anyway I leave to the experts to answer your mail. Hi Nina and Sarah I got three basic qn. In the Lobha cittas there are those disconnected with wrong view, since they are not sobhana cittas, definitely it will not mean right view. What do it mean? Secondly is the question of the promptness of ignorance - Under the Comprehensive of Abdhidhamma translated by B.Bodhi, in the book, Visud maintain that the distinction in terms of prompting is omitted because neither alternative is applicable. They state since these two cittas lack natural acutness, they cannot be described as unprompted; and since there is no occassion when one deliberatly tries to arouse them, they cannot be described as prompted. Ledi Sayadaw, however rejects this position, hold these cittas to be exclusively unprompted. He contends: "Since these two cittas occur in beings naturally, by their own intrinsic nature; they need not be aroused by any inducement or expedient means. They always occur without trouble or difficulty. Therefore they are exclusively unprompted and this should be seen as the reason the distinction by way of prompting is not mentioned here" Thirdly, the Comprehensive Manual of Abidhidhamma states that wrong view and conceit are contrary to each other, hence they cannot co-exist in the same citta. The explanation is not adequate, could you provide a better one. kind regards Ken o p.s. Sarah - The reason I smile when I see the luminous thread is that now I know the reason why you at the time you call yourself a dinosaur, a dying breed. 28119 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) - and other questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > > Thirdly, the Comprehensive Manual of Abidhidhamma states that wrong > view and conceit are contrary to each other, hence they cannot > co-exist in the same citta. The explanation is not adequate, could > you provide a better one. > >=========== Dear Ken, Thinking about conceit or wrong view may not show us the difference but when the characteristic of conceit is present can we see that it is different from that of wrong view.. robert 28120 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) - and other questions Hi Robert It is true that thinking will not help :). It is my inquisitive nature that at times I like to go to the core of a question. Maybe I just cannot logically understand what is the difference between conceit and wrong view. To me isn't conceit a wrong view. I just dont understand what is the subtle difference between them as said in the Manual, could you help me to find the commentaries comment on this. The quest to know is bc I like to exercise my mind, when greed arise in my immediate presence, I will asked whether it is prompted or not, conceit or wrong view etc. Then also looking those behind the curtain of greed where moha lurks :) and recently also concern about latency after the mail from Nina. Sometimes I also like to ask is it object predominant or not... or investigate its anicaness or anattanessa. I think it is fun, there are so many ways to look at one event. And sometimes, if I could not fall asleep, I used this exercise to visit Bhavanga Town :) and I find it an effective method and it never fail to amaze me. Cheers Ken O > Dear Ken, > Thinking about conceit or wrong view may not show us the > difference > but when the characteristic of conceit is present can we see that > it > is different from that of wrong view.. > robert > > > > > > > > > 28121 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:58am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The development of Wisdom Hi Azita, I am very happy to hear from you, after having met you and many interesting discussions in Thailand. I am doing very well now. I hope you are doing better ;-). Yes, I think there are many interesting tidbits about why parayatti is most important to the development of wisdom, and why it is impossible to realize the 4 noble truths without the frequent awareness of this very moment. If we need reminder, we can always remember the 4 factors of sotapanna: the association with a wise person, listening to the true dhamma, wise consideration, and practice according to the dhamma. Wrong views are abundant, and without all these 4 factors, we can never eliminate it... The question you ask is way over my head, (and since I currently have no access to the commentaries) so perhaps others will respond... It's pretty interesting though, there is no panna without sadha, so what does this text mean about having panna without sadha? It cannot be true panna. I can tell you my thoughts... Panna without Sadha is the ability to think through things (even not a true panna). Some Bikkhu with this characteristic may be prone to think of ways to get around the Patikmokkha, resulting in such craftiness. You know one of the Patikmokkha is not to have sexual intercourse, but do you know that the Buddha issued many additional minor rules in regard to the major rule, based on the Bikkhus getting around the wording of the rule. A person with sadha, but without panna, cannot know the truth for himself, and must rely on other always. This obviously doesn't work out too well when the people one is associated with are not all ariyans: one is bound to veer of in the wrong path according to their current association. An example of being crafty in daily life is, you are about to get to an appointment, you know you should be on time and being late is no good, but yet, because of all other excuses you may have, you go late anyway. Don't you think this is a bit crafty? You manage to find some justifications for something no good. Being crafty is not being straight, not being true to the dhamma (because there is no panna at such moments). Craftiness leads you to mistake akusala as kusala, kusala as akusala, and many other mistaken ideas. Truths are impossible to see when there is such craftiness. I think that's why TA Sujin keeps reminding us to be straight. Ah, but how do you become stright, and know that you are straight? Definitely, not without panna, and not with such craftiness. Lobha is easily mistakenly as saddha. Vedana associated with lobha and kusala states are the same kinds of vedana (either pleasant or neutral). Lobha can also come with piti, so does saddha. Do you see how easy it is to mistake lobha as saddha, even if there may be sadha before that lobha? An example of this is, when you give, you feel sadha, piti, and somanassa, but immediately afterward, there is lobha to the kusala mental states, but all the meanwhile, you think they are all saddha. Do you know that some people give because they feel good? Such lobha are subtle comparing to the gross lobha, but lobha nonetheless, and with that, final liberation is just impossible. Seasonal Greetings for Everybody! Metta, kom > -----Original Message----- > From: gazita2002 [mailto:gazita2002@y...] > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 3:43 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: The development of Wisdom > > > Dear Kom, > > Hello, hope you are well. This morning, I got onto dsg. for a > quick read before I go to yoga, looking for a little inspiration and > here it is. I like to have these reminders every day, they are so > helpful. Pariyatti must come before there is any development of > right understanding, otherwise in ignorance, how could we possibly > know what are paramatta dhammas. > > A good time for my question. I have been thinking about Panna > and Saddha. We are told that Panna without Saddha can lead to > craftiness, and that too much Saddha without Panna can lead to blind > faith. How would craftiness and blind faith appear, what are their > characteristics? > > BTW, Seasons greetings to you, Kom. > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. > > 28122 From: Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) Hi, Chris - In a message dated 12/20/03 6:19:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear Group, > > Sabbe sankhaaraa aniccaa means 'all formations are impermanent'. > This is commonsense, we see it in everything from emotions, to ice, > to the pyramids - nothing lasts forever, eventually all things > crumble and deteriorate. Nyanatiloka gives a quote from the > Visuddhimagga "Impermanency of things is the rising, passing and > changing of things, or the disappearance of things that have become > or arisen. The meaning is that these things never persist in the > same way, but that they are vanishing dissolving from moment to > moment. (Vic. VII, 3 > I can see thoughts and emotions arising and vanishing from moment to > moment. But I am doubtful about other things - it doesn't seem to > fit my experience. And I can't find in the Suttas a reference to > change occuring at the same steady and continuous rate for diverse > things. Couldn't it be feasible for change to occur in fits and > starts, not in a smooth and continuous succession? That some things > might last for a while? > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: There is considerable variation in "lastingness" for conventional objects, with some seeming to go through slow gradual change, ofeten through periods of no change at all, and others dropping out quickly. I suspect this may no t be so when it comes to directly observed, elementary, actualities (paramattha dhammas), though I could be wrong. Take the stream of visual objects, for example. Each time we note even the slightest variation in the smallest aspect of "the scene," we have to recognize that this is no longer the same scene as before. If, there is, in fact, a shortest such "scene duration," - and this would be *very* short compared to the apparent durations of conventional objects - it seems to me that at least two scenarios might apply. Let us call the minimal duration before a change of any sort in a visual object can occur, if there is such a minimal duration, the "min-dur". One scenario is that every visual object persists for a time period that is an integral multiple of the min-dur. In this case, the "discrete, variable duration case," the same, single visual object persists throughout an entire consecutive, gapless sequence of min-durs. In another scenario, the "discrete, fixed duration case," every visual object persists only for the min-dur, and after each min-dur, there is a next object that *may* be an exact replica of the preceding. The difference between these two scenarios is definitional - purely a matter of "parsing". On the other hand, the presumption that there is a min-dur may well be false. Moreover, even if it is correct, it is not necessarily so that every visual object persists for an *integral* multiple of that duration - the multiples may be fractional, or even non-rational multiples! Even "worse," perhaps the durational periods are more like fuzzy intervals than discrete periods. Or perhaps there is actually no duration at all! Maybe each phenomenon drops away the moment it appears. Perhaps, even, our ideas of time and duration don't really apply at all, and are merely conventional! Presumably, an arahant, or a Buddha at least, would know the precise facts of this topic. But - and this, I think, is the bottom line - why does it matter? Isn't this subject just one of the many leaves in the forest that are not held in the Buddha's hand? The notion of 'anicca' implies neither discreteness nor continuity. It doesn't imply gradual change or abrupt cessation or a combination of the two. It implies only one thing: No conditioned state remains, and, hence, there is nothing to cling to. The Buddha addressed but one matter - suffering and the end of suffering, and it is for this purpose alone that he taught the characteristic of anicca. By following the Buddha's path of practice we have a means of coming to directly discover for ourselves the truth of anicca. Then we will know, but more importantly, then we will be freed. ------------------------------------------------------ > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28123 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) Hello Howard, Thanks for your reply Howard - How I came to be examining anicca is that I am starting to read "Change - an examination of impermanence in experience" by Samanera Bodhesako. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/chang-pr.htm He says that an important factor in understanding impermanence is Right View - Wrong View is blindness. 'That blindness -- so the Buddha's discourses repeatedly assert -- is involved centrally with our failure to see, to know, the nature of impermanence. And yet in our own experience everywhere we look we see that things are indeed impermanent. If the Buddha is correct then what have we missed?' metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Chris - > > In a message dated 12/20/03 6:19:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > > Dear Group, > > > > Sabbe sankhaaraa aniccaa means 'all formations are impermanent'. > > This is commonsense, we see it in everything from emotions, to ice, > > to the pyramids - nothing lasts forever, eventually all things > > crumble and deteriorate. Nyanatiloka gives a quote from the > > Visuddhimagga "Impermanency of things is the rising, passing and > > changing of things, or the disappearance of things that have become > > or arisen. The meaning is that these things never persist in the > > same way, but that they are vanishing dissolving from moment to > > moment. (Vic. VII, 3 > > I can see thoughts and emotions arising and vanishing from moment to > > moment. But I am doubtful about other things - it doesn't seem to > > fit my experience. And I can't find in the Suttas a reference to > > change occuring at the same steady and continuous rate for diverse > > things. Couldn't it be feasible for change to occur in fits and > > starts, not in a smooth and continuous succession? That some things > > might last for a while? > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > There is considerable variation in "lastingness" for conventional > objects, with some seeming to go through slow gradual change, ofeten through > periods of no change at all, and others dropping out quickly. I suspect this may no > t be so when it comes to directly observed, elementary, actualities > (paramattha dhammas), though I could be wrong. Take the stream of visual objects, for > example. Each time we note even the slightest variation in the smallest aspect > of "the scene," we have to recognize that this is no longer the same scene as > before. If, there is, in fact, a shortest such "scene duration," - and this > would be *very* short compared to the apparent durations of conventional objects > - it seems to me that at least two scenarios might apply. > Let us call the minimal duration before a change of any sort in a > visual object can occur, if there is such a minimal duration, the "min-dur". One > scenario is that every visual object persists for a time period that is an > integral multiple of the min-dur. In this case, the "discrete, variable duration > case," the same, single visual object persists throughout an entire > consecutive, gapless sequence of min-durs. In another scenario, the "discrete, fixed > duration case," every visual object persists only for the min-dur, and after each > min-dur, there is a next object that *may* be an exact replica of the > preceding. The difference between these two scenarios is definitional - purely a > matter of "parsing". > On the other hand, the presumption that there is a min-dur may well be > false. > Moreover, even if it is correct, it is not necessarily so that every visual > object persists for an *integral* multiple of that duration - the multiples may > be fractional, or even non-rational multiples! Even "worse," perhaps the > durational periods are more like fuzzy intervals than discrete periods. Or perhaps > there is actually no duration at all! Maybe each phenomenon drops away the > moment it appears. Perhaps, even, our ideas of time and duration don't really > apply at all, and are merely conventional! > Presumably, an arahant, or a Buddha at least, would know the precise > facts of this topic. But - and this, I think, is the bottom line - why does it > matter? Isn't this subject just one of the many leaves in the forest that are > not held in the Buddha's hand? The notion of 'anicca' implies neither > discreteness nor continuity. It doesn't imply gradual change or abrupt cessation or a > combination of the two. It implies only one thing: No conditioned state > remains, and, hence, there is nothing to cling to. The Buddha addressed but one > matter - suffering and the end of suffering, and it is for this purpose alone that > he taught the characteristic of anicca. By following the Buddha's path of > practice we have a means of coming to directly discover for ourselves the truth > of anicca. Then we will know, but more importantly, then we will be freed. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > ============================ > With metta, > Howard 28124 From: Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 0:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) Hi, Christine - In a message dated 12/20/03 7:45:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello Howard, > > Thanks for your reply Howard - > How I came to be examining anicca is that I am starting to > read "Change - an examination of impermanence in experience" by > Samanera Bodhesako. > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/chang-pr.htm > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Is it a worthwhile "read"? ------------------------------------------------ > He says that an important factor in understanding impermanence is > Right View - Wrong View is blindness. 'That blindness -- so the > Buddha's discourses repeatedly assert -- is involved centrally with > our failure to see, to know, the nature of impermanence. And yet in > our own experience everywhere we look we see that things are indeed > impermanent. If the Buddha is correct then what have we missed?' > > metta and peace, > Christine > ============================ Yes, everywhere we look there is impermanence. But we are trained (self-trained, it seems) to not see it - to see permanence where there is impermanence. We really need to purposely observe with the *intention* of seeing impermanence, I think. What is missing, perhaps, is that very intention. It is needed to overcome the tendency to the "static view" created, at least in part, by our taking of conventional concept-objects, frozen in time by the mind, as realities. The actual world of phenomena doesn't wait for us, and can't be grasped, but our substitute, shadow-world of concepts does not so appear. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28125 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) Hello Howard, I think it *could* be a good read, except I lack judgment to know whether he is on or off the Track. (I was the one up the back during Math class writing short stories and poems). So I would need to really concentrate when reading about recursiveness and reductionist analysis. I tried for a quick look at the final section "Two Overviews" but have a sinking feeling one is left with a question. I'll need to find a quiet time to concentrate (probably not on this last weekend of shopping before Christmas Day). :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: I am starting to > > read "Change - an examination of impermanence in experience" by > > Samanera Bodhesako. > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/chang-pr.htm > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Is it a worthwhile "read"? > ------------------------------------------------ > Yes, everywhere we look there is impermanence. But we are trained > (self-trained, it seems) to not see it - to see permanence where there is > impermanence. We really need to purposely observe with the *intention* of seeing > impermanence, I think. What is missing, perhaps, is that very intention. It is > needed to overcome the tendency to the "static view" created, at least in part, by > our taking of conventional concept-objects, frozen in time by the mind, as > realities. The actual world of phenomena doesn't wait for us, and can't be > grasped, but our substitute, shadow-world of concepts does not so appear. > > With metta, > Howard 28126 From: Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Christine The rate of change is dependent on the qualities of both an object and its environment. A "free floating" asteroid in space has very little impacting it and therefore changes form relatively slowly. It might look almost the same over millions of years. If it slams into a planet, huge changes occur relatively fast. All things are continuously changing in accordance to the forces currently impacting upon them. Current structural formations have taken "their" current shape in accordance with the forces "they" have encountered (over time). The cup sitting on my desk doesn't appear to be changing, but it is expanding and contracting dependent on temperature changes. It is moving through space (in relation to other objects) as the planet moves through space, and it will eventually encounter impact(s) cataclysmic enough the break it and render it no longer identifiable as a cup. If we are careful with the cup, put it in a display case and don't use it; and assuming an earthquake or something else doesn't knock it down, it will last much longer than if we use it regularly. This is simply because it is undergoing far less 'contact' in a more protected environment. Conditionality (the nature of conditional states) requires things to alter in accordance to conditions. Impermanence is just an aspect of conditionality, it is nothing in and of itself. I.E., there is no force of impermanence. There are simply interacting forces and THAT is impermanence in action. TG In a message dated 12/20/2003 3:19:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > Sabbe sankhaaraa aniccaa means 'all formations are impermanent'. > This is commonsense, we see it in everything from emotions, to ice, > to the pyramids - nothing lasts forever, eventually all things > crumble and deteriorate. Nyanatiloka gives a quote from the > Visuddhimagga "Impermanency of things is the rising, passing and > changing of things, or the disappearance of things that have become > or arisen. The meaning is that these things never persist in the > same way, but that they are vanishing dissolving from moment to > moment. (Vic. VII, 3 > I can see thoughts and emotions arising and vanishing from moment to > moment. But I am doubtful about other things - it doesn't seem to > fit my experience. And I can't find in the Suttas a reference to > change occuring at the same steady and continuous rate for diverse > things. Couldn't it be feasible for change to occur in fits and > starts, not in a smooth and continuous succession? That some things > might last for a while? > > metta and peace, > Christine > 28127 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 9:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) Hello TG, and all, Thanks TG - I understand what you are telling me, this is how the world appears to me, to all of us. But doesn't this bring us to an awkward spot here? :-) What about citta/cetasika and rupa? Never did find out how long a citta/cetasika can linger ... (17 times less than a rupa?) :-) I have been taught, here on dsg, and in abhidhamma books, that the Buddha taught that no 'thing' exists for even a moment. That mental and physical phenomena rise and fall away with incredible speed, and there is a 'mind moment' in between when it is there, but changing ... the flux or continuum. That what we see is an appearance of a solid lasting thing but is really groups of events that cannot stay for even a moment. This is the same way we see a continuous ring of fire if someone is whirling a burning stick. Within this rapid change (which, looking out my study window, I can't discern) physical phenomena and mental phenomena are said to be renewed ceaselessly. Accepting myself and the world in this way has helped me to understand more about anatta and conditionality, about no control - but I do feel hesitant about the theory, hence I continue to look into it ... Samanera Bodhesako seemed to be tackling the subject from a different angle. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Christine > > The rate of change is dependent on the qualities of both an object and its > environment. A "free floating" asteroid in space has very little impacting it > and therefore changes form relatively slowly. It might look almost the same > over millions of years. If it slams into a planet, huge changes occur > relatively fast. > > All things are continuously changing in accordance to the forces currently > impacting upon them. Current structural formations have taken "their" current > shape in accordance with the forces "they" have encountered (over time). > > The cup sitting on my desk doesn't appear to be changing, but it is expanding > and contracting dependent on temperature changes. It is moving through space > (in relation to other objects) as the planet moves through space, and it will > eventually encounter impact(s) cataclysmic enough the break it and render it > no longer identifiable as a cup. If we are careful with the cup, put it in a > display case and don't use it; and assuming an earthquake or something else > doesn't knock it down, it will last much longer than if we use it regularly. > This is simply because it is undergoing far less 'contact' in a more protected > environment. > > Conditionality (the nature of conditional states) requires things to alter in > accordance to conditions. Impermanence is just an aspect of conditionality, > it is nothing in and of itself. I.E., there is no force of impermanence. > There are simply interacting forces and THAT is impermanence in action. > > TG > > > In a message dated 12/20/2003 3:19:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > Dear Group, > > > > Sabbe sankhaaraa aniccaa means 'all formations are impermanent'. > > This is commonsense, we see it in everything from emotions, to ice, > > to the pyramids - nothing lasts forever, eventually all things > > crumble and deteriorate. Nyanatiloka gives a quote from the > > Visuddhimagga "Impermanency of things is the rising, passing and > > changing of things, or the disappearance of things that have become > > or arisen. The meaning is that these things never persist in the > > same way, but that they are vanishing dissolving from moment to > > moment. (Vic. VII, 3 > > I can see thoughts and emotions arising and vanishing from moment to > > moment. But I am doubtful about other things - it doesn't seem to > > fit my experience. And I can't find in the Suttas a reference to > > change occuring at the same steady and continuous rate for diverse > > things. Couldn't it be feasible for change to occur in fits and > > starts, not in a smooth and continuous succession? That some things > > might last for a while? > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > > > > 28128 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tanha and intention Ben --- jangchup777 wrote: ... > INTENTION ... > Also, when sankaras are spoken of as an aggregate of clinging, are > these the same sankharas that are referred to in dependent > origination? The simple answer to this question is 'no', but discussing the difference is no simple matter! In both contexts the term 'sankhara' refers to the mental factor that is cetana (volition, intention), but in the context of sankhara-khandha it includes other mental factors as well. However, even cetana needs to be understood from different aspects according to its context. In her book 'Cetasikas' (Ch 5, 'Volition in the Cycle of birth and Death'), Nina explains sankhara the context of dependent origination as follows: (www.zolag.co.uk/) <<< Sankhara, the second link in the Dependant Origination, is cetana in its function of kamma which produces vipaka, so that the cycle of birth and death continues. Under this aspect cetana is also called abhisankhara. The prefix ‘abhi’ is sometimes used in the sense of preponderance. Cetana which is kusala kamma or akusala kamma has preponderance in the conditioning of rebirth. Only cetana which accompanies kusala citta or akusala citta can be ‘abhisankhara’. ... All abhisankharas or “kamma-formations” are a link in the Dependent Origination, they are conditioned by ignorance. Kusala kamma is still conditioned by ignorance, although at the moment of kusala citta there is no ignorance accompanying the citta. So long as there is ignorance we perform kamma which can produce vipaka; we will be reborn and thus the cycle continues. We read in the Visuddhimagga (XVII, 119) that the ignorant man is like a blind person: As one born blind, who gropes along Without assistance from a guide, Chooses a road that may be right At one time, at another wrong, So while this foolish man pursues The round of births without a guide, Now to do merit he may choose And now demerit in such plight. But when the Dhamma he comes to know And penetrates the Truths beside, Then ignorance is put to flight At last, and he in peace may go. >>> As you can see, it's not an easy area to grasp, but I hope this helps a little. Jon PS Here also is a brief (abridged) extract from Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' that may help to give an idea of the different meanings of sankhara in these 2 contexts: (http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html) <<< 'Sankhára': This term has, according to its context, different shades of meaning, which should be carefully distinguished. 1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination, sankhára has the active aspect, 'forming, and signifies karma, i.e. wholesome or unwholesome volitional activity (cetaná) of body, speech or mind. This definition occurs, e.g. at S. XII, 2, 27. ... In other passages, in the same context, sankhára is defined by reference to: (a) meritorious karma-formations (puññ'ábhisankhára), (b) demeritorious k. (apuññ'abhisankhára), (c) imperturbable k. (áneñj'ábhisankhára), e.g. in S. XII, 51; D. 33. ... 3. It also denotes the 4th group of existence (sankhárakkhandha), and includes all 'mental formations' whether they belong to 'karmically forming' consciousness or not. 'Khandha': The 5 'groups (of existence)' or 'groups of clinging' (upádánakkhandha); alternative renderings: aggregates, categories of clinging's objects. These are the 5 aspects in which the Buddha has summed up all the physical and mental phenomena of existence, and which appear to the ignorant man as his ego, or personality, ... In S. XXII, 56, there is the following short definition of these 5 groups: ... "What, o monks, is the group of mental formations? There are 6 classes of volitional states (cetaná): with regard to visual objects, to sounds, to odours, to tastes, to bodily impressions and to mind objects.... SUMMARY OF THE 5 GROUPS ... IV. Group of Mental Formations (sankhára-kkhandha) This group comprises 50 mental phenomena, of which 11 are general psychological elements, 25 lofty (sobhana) qualities, 14 karmically unwholesome qualities. (I) To its most frequent usages the general term 'formation' may be applied, with the qualifications required by the context. This term may refer either to the act of 'forming or to the passive state of 'having been formed' or to both. >>> 28129 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Grasping at mind states Herman --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Jon and everyone, ... > I understand the need to be brief, but am finding it difficult to > just post a link. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel027.html > Going Forth (Pabbajja) - A Call to Buddhist Monkhood by Sumana > Samanera > > For those inclined to do so, read the whole lot, I found it very > worthwhile. For those under constraints, do a search on "Dear Mr. > N., " and read that section. > > For those under even greater constraints, the salient point of the > message is : "1. persistence; 2. persistence; 3. persistence". I wouldn't disagree with this, assuming that it's persistence in developing the path that is being referred to (I'm sure it is). But what is the development of the path? This is what we all need to understand better, and it's not something that can be easily discerned from a superficial familiarity with the teachings and, indeed, is very easily misunderstood. I'd be interested to hear your own ideas on this anytime you feel inclined to share them ;-)) > I seriously wonder to what extent that particular understanding of > the teachings that militates against directed activity is intended > to keep samsara an attractive proposition. I know you do not really mean to suggest that directed activity is necessarily kusala, but that could be the inference drawn from the above. As with persistence, concentration, quietness and the rest, directed activity comes in many stripes, and is of no value unless it's kusala (in fact, if it's not kusala then it's akusala). Now in order for kusala to arise, is persistence or directed activity a necessary condition, would you say? > Isn't it a self-concept that lies at the source of the studious > avoidance of anything that could be interpreted as originating from > a self-concept? Probably ;-)). And that's why to get it right we need the guidance offered by the teachings. Jon 28130 From: Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Christine In a message dated 12/20/2003 10:02:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello TG, and all, > > Thanks TG - I understand what you are telling me, this is how the > world appears to me, to all of us. But doesn't this bring us to an > awkward spot here? :-) TG: Not at all. What about citta/cetasika and rupa? Never > did find out how long a citta/cetasika can linger ... (17 times less > than a rupa?) :-) TG: Consciousness is a faster form of energy than form. Energies move at different speeds due to different causal conditions. > > I have been taught, here on dsg, and in abhidhamma books, that the > Buddha taught that no 'thing' exists for even a moment. TG: The notion, for example, that hardness arises for one moment and then is immediately replaced by another hardness is NOT taught in the suttas. The few references that the Buddha makes as to how things wear away are expressed in very common sense terms; and indicates that it is the contact between states that cause them to wear away. I would agree that nothing exists "as a self" for even a moment, but I don't think that's the issue at hand. That mental > > and physical phenomena rise and fall away with incredible speed, and > there is a 'mind moment' in between when it is there, but > changing ... the flux or continuum. That what we see is an > appearance of a solid lasting thing but is really groups of events > that cannot stay for even a moment. > This is the same way we see a continuous ring of fire > if someone is whirling a burning stick. Within this rapid change > (which, looking out my study window, I can't discern) physical > phenomena and mental phenomena are said to be renewed ceaselessly. > Accepting myself and the world in this way has helped me to > understand more about anatta and conditionality, about no control - > but I do feel hesitant about the theory, hence I continue to look > into it ... Samanera Bodhesako seemed to be tackling the subject from > a different angle. TG: My response is... 1) The above theory is not in the slightest taught by the Buddha in the Suttas. 2) I think you have good grounds for feeling hesitant about a theory that is beyond knowable experience and perhaps common sense. 3) In my opinion, the optical experience called "persistence of vision" is unrelated to the above impermanence theory. 4) In the Visuddhimagga, one of the ways described to develop impermanence insight is to realize that nothing traverses through time unchanged. For example...nothing in the 1st decade of one's life traverses into the 2nd decade and so on. This type of analysis is described in proceeding smaller and smaller increments. To me, this is just saying that things are continuously altering. I do not believe it is meant to mean that something has completely fallen away and something completely new has arisen. I think it has been mis-understood by some people in this way... i.e., to think of impermanence in a digital on-off fashion. Because states are continuously altering, how could any state traverse through time? Its always at least slightly different due to continuously altering conditions. Its basically another way of saying "no-self" because something would have to be a self to traverse through time and there isn't any such thing/state. I believe nature is altering in a analog fashion. It is not a digital "on-off" phenomena IMO. TG 28131 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 11:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Howard Thanks for this. I'd have had no idea! In the end, however, I don't think the history of the different schools has any real bearing on the central question of whether a particular view is or is not in conformity with the Buddha's original teaching. Nothing one reads should be taken as 'gospel'. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Michael) - ... > ========================== > I could, of course, be way wrong, but my understanding is > that the > perfection of wisdom suttas of early Mahayana, and the work of > Nagarjuna, were > responses not to Theravada, but to the Sarvastivada and Sautrantika > schools > which were seriously infected by substantialism-eternalism and > annihilationism. > > With metta, > Howard 28132 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 11:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How we 'think' we'll act Dear Nina, I really liked your post. So often on yahoo lists people pretend to experience what other people expect them to experience, depending on their years as a buddhist. Often a problem I have is that the thought arises 'I ought to know and understand more' or 'I ought not to feel like this, I'm not a beginner anymore'. It is really beneficial for me that you express yourself with such openness and honesty. Thank you also for mentioning how knowing more of the latent tendencies helps you. I think I will study some more about them myself - so much to learn, and so little time. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Christine, > Your post really moved me, and it gives food for thought. > First of all, I am really glad your test came out O.K. > The sutta Upajjhatthana Sutta AN v.57, is one of my favorites, going > straight to the heart. As John Kelly, our Pali teacher said, he meditates > on it every day: that is near and dear to me is subject to variableness...I am heir to my own > kamma....> > He said that I will need this sutta, I liked his insistance. > Since Lodewijk and I are both growing old, I have to reflect: all that is > near and dear to me is subject to variableness. Am I prepared? No. > > op 19-12-2003 10:37 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > I had always > > thought that, with even the very little I understand of the Buddha's > > teachings, I would be calm and mature and face 'whate'er betide' in > > the future with serenity and peace. Well, so much for the script. > > There was no serenity and peace. > N: So human. What gets me too is that our reactions are so unforeseeable. > When there is something that upsets me, before I know the tears spring into > my eyes, almost automatically. Where is the calm Dhamma person? And when we > hear: now you see it is all uncontrollable, you see the anattaness, it does > not seem to help much. Or we hear: just conditions. Lodewijk gets upset and > irritated when he hears this. > C: . I'm actually quite > > disappointed in myself > N: Yes, I recognize this. And how!!! > C: I recall how with > > MahaMoggallana, even when the kamma of the past ripened so suddenly > > and terribly, it could only affect his body but could not shake his > > mind. And I wonder how does an ordinary unenlightened disciple of > > the Buddha prepare for and endure such an eventuality? > N: Realizing more and more how unforeseeable our reactions are, we cannot > prepare very much. It is as it is. > What helps me personally is going to the root of our defilements. As I > mentioned, knowing more about the latent tendencies that can only be > eradicated by lokuttara cittas. It helps to a certain extent to know where > the akusala citta that suddenly arises comes from. Where is the calm Dhamma > person: I realize that there is a great deal of conceit here. And clinging > how we would like to be. When we are upset about people or events it is > again defilement and this is also be caused by the latent tendency of > conceit, why does this have to happen to *me*. And personality beief, wrong > view. > We do not have to prepare ourselves, but when we see more clearly our > defilements it will make us come to realize increasingly their disadvantages > and dangers. Even the level of pariyatti, intellectial understanding is most > helpful. When time comes pariyatti can condition right awareness and right > understanding. That is why Moggallana could stand anything. > Nina. 28133 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 11:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Michael --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Jon, ... Michael: I was thinking about the opinions expressed by Bhikkhu Bodhi in the Introduction to the ‘Abhdhammattha Sangaha,’ and in the Introduction to ‘Abhidhamma Studies’ by Nyanaponika Thera. Wouldn’t you agree that he is a well respected modern Theravada scholar? Jon: Absolutely, but there are considerable differences of view even among well-respected modern scholars and, in any event, what is one to make of any differences with the ancient writers? In the end I think one has to go back to the original source as far as that is possible. Michael: If one regards the dhammas as a collection of conditions, and one can see that there is a ‘higher’ level of a collection of conditions, which conventionally we call a person, then one can infer that there must be a ‘lower’ level of a collection of conditions below the dhammas. Of course if one assumes the dhammas to be ultimate reality then this will not be acceptable. Jon: I haven't yet understood this idea of dhammas as a collection of conditions. Perhaps you could explain a little further. If, according to this idea, the conventional notion of a person is in reality (a level of) a collection of conditions, what is the relationship between dhammas and the notion of person (since you have described both as a 'collection of conditions')? Michael: I don’t think dhammas are paramatha, that is not what I read in the suttas. Jon: Are you saying that what you read in the suttas is what you have described here as 'dhammas as a collection of conditions'? Michael: To use a simple illustration [regarding the notion of regularity], imagine the leaves of the trees turning yellow in the Fall, this happens due to a series of causes and conditions, and the yellow color, which is the characteristic of the leaves in the Fall, is not intrinsic to those leaves but is a consequence of causes and conditions. Now, regularity is that those leaves will always turn yellow when those causes and conditions are present, and not due to something intrinsic in the leaves. Because every fall the leaves turn yellow an ordinary mind could attribute that characteristic to the leaves and not to the causes and conditions. Of course few people do that in relation to leaves, but with other more abstract phenomena/objects it is not difficult to attribute the characteristic as something intrinsic to that ‘thing’. Jon: I follow so far, but I don’t see how this relates to dhammas and their distinctive characteristic. Could you perhaps give a specific example? Sorry to be a little slow in getting your points. Jon 28134 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 11:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Michael --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Howard, > > Howard: > I could, of course, be way wrong, but my understanding is that the > perfection of wisdom suttas of early Mahayana, and the work of > Nagarjuna, > were > responses not to Theravada, but to the Sarvastivada and Sautrantika > schools > which were seriously infected by substantialism-eternalism and > annihilationism.. > > Michael: > I think you are right but the point is that those ideas also found > their way into the Theravada commentaries. Interesting. Do you have any particular commentaries in mind? I am not aware of any 'substantialism-eternalism and annihilationism' views in the commentaries -- in fact just the opposite. Jon 28135 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tanha and intention Ben --- jangchup777 wrote: ... Ben: It seems that I cannot discern the difference between an intention and a desire in my own mind. A sankhara and tanha. Say a man desires to relieve himself at the toilet. Is this a desire? An intention? Is it called tanha because we favor the empty-bladder feeling and oppose the have-to-go feeling? Is it rightly called a bodily sankhara? Now if this person is prevented from using the toilet, he might relieve himself outside and be undisturbed. But another man might be angry and displeased. And this is because he is clinging to that intention to use the toilet, right? Is that what it means to not cling to sankharas? To be able to abandon an intention without any care? +++++++++++++++++ Jon: Intention and desire (attachment) are 2 mental factors that accompany moments of consciousness. It is said in the texts that every single moment of consciousness is accompanied by the mental factor of intention (cetana). Attachment/desire (lobha, a synonym for tanha) is a mental factor that may accompany unwholesome (akusala) moments of consciousness. Whenever there is attachment there is intention too. It may well not be possible to say whether one is motivated by intention or attachment. Because of our ignorance and wrong view, individual dhammas are 'invisible' except as moments of awareness (sati) and understanding (panna), neither of which can occur simply because we would like to know more about a particular dhamma or moment. To my understanding, what is important is the development of awareness of any presently occurring dhamma, so that gradually dhammas can be seen more as they truly are. With the gradual development of awareness, individual dhammas such as intention and desire gradually become to be seen as they are, and the distinction between them more apparent. However, we should not be too anxious for this to occur. It is the task of a lifetime or, more likely, several lifetimes. I have copied below 2 more extracts from Nina's 'Cetasikas', this time discussing the different functions and characteristics of these 2 mental factors as given in the texts. I have given rather lengthy extracts to show how different these 2 dhammas are, and to inlcude the many practical examples that Nina mentions. I think you'll agree that, reading these descriptions there ought to be no mistaking one for the other, yet the fact is that this happens all the time. We should take this as an indication of the extent to which awareness and understanding of dhammas has yet to be developed. ;-)) Hope you find this material interesting. Jon: 'Cetasikas' (www.zolag.co.uk/) CETANA (from Ch 5) Cetana, volition, is a cetasika which arises with every citta, as we have seen. Seeing, hearing or thinking which arise now are accompanied by cetana. Every type of cetana performs the function of coordinating the different tasks of the accompanying dhammas, no matter whether the citta is kusala citta, akusala citta, vipakacitta or kiriyacitta. When cetana accompanies kusala citta or akusala citta it performs, besides the function of coordinating, another function: it “wills” kusala or akusala and it can motivate a wholesome or an unwholesome deed through body, speech or mind. Kusala cetana and akusala cetana, which are actually kusala kamma and akusala kamma, are capable of producing the appropriate results of the deeds they motivated. Since kusala kamma and akusala kamma are capable of producing rebirth-consciousness, they are a link in the ‘Dependant Origination’ (paìiccasamuppada, the conditional origination of phenomena). ... While we study the different aspects of cetana we can see that cetana is different as it arises with different cittas. - Cetana which accompanies kusala citta or akusala citta “wills” kusala or akusala and it is capable of producing vipaka; it is, except in the case of cetana which accompanies magga-citta, abhisankhara or kammaformation. - The cetanas which accompany rúpavacara citta and arúpavacara citta can produce rebirth in higher planes of existence, in rúpa-brahma planes and arúpa-brahma planes, they are a link in the Dependant Origination. - Cetana which accompanies vipakacitta is vipaka, it is produced by akusala kamma or kusala kamma. This type of cetana has only the function of coordinating the other dhammas it accompanies. - The cetana which accompanies kiriyacitta is not kusala or akusala, nor is it vipaka; it is of the jati which is kiriya, inoperative. This type of cetana has only the function of coordinating. LOBHA (from Ch 15) The Dhammasangaùi (§1059) ... gives a long list of different names for lobha in order to illustrate its different shades and aspects. Lobha is compared to a creeper, it strangles its victim such as a creeper strangles a tree. It is like the ocean, it is insatiable. Lobha can be coarse or it can be more subtle such as hoping or expecting. It is a “bondage” because it binds beings in the round of births. It is a depravity because it corrupts the mind. The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 162) gives the following definition of lobha: … greed has the characteristic of grasping an object like “monkey lime”. Its function is sticking, like meat put in a hot pan. It is manifested as not giving up, like the dye of lamp-black. Its proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded as taking (beings) with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean. Greed has the characteristic of grasping like monkey lime. Monkey lime was used by hunters in order to catch monkeys. We read in the Kindred Sayings (V, Mahå-vagga, Book III, Chapter I, §7, The monkey) that a hunter sets a trap of lime for monkeys. Monkeys who are free from “folly and greed” do not get trapped. We read: … But a greedy, foolish monkey comes up to the pitch and handles it with one paw, and his paw sticks fast in it. Then, thinking: I’ll free my paw, he seizes it with the other paw, but that too sticks fast. To free both paws he seizes them with one foot, and that too sticks fast. To free both paws and the one foot, he lays hold of them with the other foot, but that too sticks fast. To free both paws and both feet he lays hold of them with his muzzle: but that too sticks fast. So that monkey thus trapped in five ways lies down and howls, thus fallen on misfortune… In this way the hunter can catch him and roast him over the fire. The Buddha explained to the monks that the monk who is not mindful gets trapped by the “five sensual elements”: visible object, sound, scent, savour and tangible object. When one is taken in by these objects, “Måra gets access”. Clinging is dangerous, it leads to one’s own destruction. Are we at this moment taken in by one of the “five sensual elements”? Then we are in fact “trapped”. At the moment of lobha we enjoy the object of clinging and we do not see that lobha makes us enslaved, we do not see the danger of lobha. Therefore it is said that the proximate cause of lobha is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Growing into a river of craving, lobha takes us to the “states of loss”. Lobha can motivate unwholesome deeds which are capable of producing an unhappy rebirth. So long as lobha has not been eradicated we are subject to birth, old age, sickness and death. Lobha is attached to many different kinds of objects and it has many degrees. Different names can denote the cetasika which is lobha. Råga (greed), abhijjå (covetousness) and taùhå (craving) are other names for lobha. When lobha is coarse it motivates akusala kamma patha (unwholesome course of action) through body, speech or mind. ... There is lobha, not only when we want to obtain things, but also when we enjoy pleasant sights, sounds, smells, flavours, tangible objects and mental objects. Don’t we like softness while we are sitting or lying down? When we sit on a hard floor we have aversion, and when we sit in a comfortable chair we find it agreeable and then there is lobha. Are we not attached to temperature, to the temperature which is just right for us: not too hot, not too cold? When we drink coffee or tea we want it to be of the temperature we like. When eating and drinking we are attached not only to flavour, but also to temperature. And don’t we like the smell of our food, the sight of it and the softness or hardness of it? There is bound to be attachment through each of the six doors, time and again. Lobha may be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. When it is accompanied by pleasant feeling there is enthusiasm ( píti) as well. When there is pleasant feeling we are delighted with it and then pleasant feeling becomes another object of attachment. When there is attachment there is also ignorance, shamelessness, recklessness and restlessness (uddhacca). Ignorance does not see the true nature of the object of clinging, it does not see that it is only a conditioned reality which does not stay. Shamelessness is not ashamed of akusala and recklessness does not see its danger. Restlessness is instability due to akusala, it prevents the citta from applying itself to kusala. Lobha can be accompanied by indifferent feeling and then it is not as intense as when it is accompanied by pleasant feeling. When we want to go somewhere or want to do something, lobha is likely to arise, but it may not always be accompanied by pleasant feeling, there may be indifferent feeling instead. Lobha-múla-citta with indifferent feeling is likely to arise countless times, but we are so ignorant, we do not notice it. 28136 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Dec 20, 2003 11:55pm Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not Hi Herman, I was hoping others would respond :-(, but maybe they are waiting for something more exiting. You asked: > As a very preliminary starting point I would like to ask about the > following: > > > I don't know at this point where to start or what precise question > > to ask. To ask if Buddha taught formal practice or not, surely one > > is not going to appeal to history, since I think the primary > reason > > for the Tipitaka to exist is the "Teachings", not the facts about > > the Buddha's life and what the people of his time did. > > To divorce the Buddha's insights from the consequences of those > insights at a practical level will make any discussion less useful > than it can be, in my opinion. There is the hint of a suggestion in > the above that formal practice is just what people did in those > days. Leading the witness, my lord , and all that. Wouldn't it be > better for that to be discussed than assumed? :-) I am thinking about how our preconceptions lead us to interpret anything in a way best suited, and we think we *do* understand the meaning of the `Teachings' themselves. It is almost as if the Texts have little power as compared to our own inclinations. I was thinking that reading the Suttas for information about whether or not there was `formal meditation' (as we know it) during the Buddha's time, would reveal the fact that there was no such thing. And I was thinking that this is not something I would like to base my argument upon, but instead would like to find out through careful consideration if such a thing would be consistent with his Teachings, particularly about conditionality and anatta. But I guess this is what DSG members have been discussing all along. ;-) I do believe that many different practices existed during the Buddha's time, the most powerful of which was `jhana'. India during that time was "ripe" with really great individuals, by the thousands. Spiritual practices existed every where and it was very common for young people to leave their families, seeing the danger of the household life. Of course before the Buddha arrived, their understanding of the danger of Lobha was based not on `conditionality'. However even this was a result of the most admirable wisdom, unlike us, even with our knowledge of Buddha's teachings. I believe that they *knew* their minds very well, and their knowledge of the Three poisons was direct and not inferential. So in my view, even Jhana required extremely high wisdom. This wisdom however is not the same as `vipassana wisdom', since it does not tie in with conditionality and anatta and so it conditions an idea of `doing' something to rise above the lobha. Yet they were able to identify and discover the `meditation objects' (kasinas), most suitable to the individual for deeper levels of absorption. But later generations like now, have instead come to believe that the `objects' are central to the practice and all one has to do is choose one and start focusing. There is no direct experience of the danger of akusala yet they expect to reach the highest level of kusala (second only to Lokuttara cittas) through just focusing on something. In other words, even Jhana starts with `wisdom'! And Vipassana panna on the other hand, is concerned with eradicating `ignorance', so here "panna" is even more central. The above is not based on anything I have read, but is just an estimation of things based on my understanding of jhana and vipassana. The main reason why I mention this is because I believe that the same phenomenon has happened with regard to the Buddha's teaching of Satipatthana. Everyone says that Anatta and conditionality is central to the Buddha's teachings and that the path is lead by Rt. View, but they seem to have a lot of `buts' here and there. Like I said earlier, it is almost as if the Teachings itself has little power and influence when faced with our preconceptions and inclinations. Of course this happens to everyone and at this point I don't discount the possibility of it happening to me even right now. ;-) What do you think? I had other things in mind, but can't recall what they were. Anyway I will send this off and wait to see what you have to say. Metta, Sukin. 28137 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 0:08am Subject: Re: How we 'think' we'll act Hi Christine, I value this post highly, because you have written about what was experienced how it was experienced, not how it should have been experienced. An embarassing and scary thing happened to me recently. Vicki, my wife, was a couple of hours overdue from work, and I was becoming a little bit frantic and annoyed. I rang her up on her mobile, and she answered, cool as a cucumber. I blurted something out, but when she reminded me that she had told me that lunchtime that she would be at a Christmas function, I suddenly remembered. It changed everything. But when you don't know, you just don't know. It was a reminder to me to make no judgments about anything, because you can only know whatever comes to you. Glad to hear that whatever ailed you wasn't there. Best wishes and Christmas hugs Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello All, > > I was thinking over something that I experienced during the last > week, and wondered if any of us ever knows what we 'really' think, > and what we are really like - as opposed to what we think we think. > What I mean is - we can feel totally certain that we understand a > little of the Buddha's teachings and believe that this will/should > influence how we act, feel and think in certain stressful situations. > But I'm not sure it does. Last week, after a routine trip to the > doctor, I suddenly found myself sent to a specialist and then briefly > into a hospital within a few days for "tests". I had always > thought that, with even the very little I understand of the Buddha's > teachings, I would be calm and mature and face 'whate'er betide' in > the future with serenity and peace. Well, so much for the script. > There was no serenity and peace. My 'outside' looked calm and > mature, but 'inside' was chaos and fear. I have been regularly > reflecting on the five facts in the Upajjhatthana Sutta AN v.57 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-057.html > These reflections may or may not have been of any benefit, but I > noted a distinct feeling when I was in the middle of my worry about > future possibilities and suppositions, of 'But these can't really > refer to me ... not me'. I can recall a more rapid heartbeat, and > mixed feelings of anxiety, and unreality. I'm actually quite > disappointed in myself - I was only briefly a little nauseous from > the tests, nothing was any different from a week prior to even > knowing I needed the tests. And nothing is any different now, a week > after the tests show all is well. I wonder now how I would > endure long standing pain or illness. I recall how with > MahaMoggallana, even when the kamma of the past ripened so suddenly > and terribly, it could only affect his body but could not shake his > mind. And I wonder how does an ordinary unenlightened disciple of > the Buddha prepare for and endure such an eventuality? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28138 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) - and other questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Robert > > It is true that thinking will not help :). It is my inquisitive > nature that at times I like to go to the core of a question. Maybe > I just cannot logically understand what is the difference between > conceit and wrong view. To me isn't conceit a wrong view. I just > dont understand what is the subtle difference between them as said in > the Manual, could you help me to find the commentaries comment on > this. ============= DearKen, Conceit and wrong view are different. Take the case of when you were (perhaps?) confused about sakkya-ditthi. Maybe you had ideas that some dhammas are controllable? And this is self view. Then later you began to realise that all dhammas are conditioned and fundamentally not under mastery of any self. This is right view. But at that same time that right view appeared was there any self satisfaction about this right view.That is conceit. Very natural; very, very common. But different from wrong view. RobertK 28139 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 4:03am Subject: Reminders Hi All, Just a couple of reminders. Trimming When replying to another post, please remember to trim any part of the other post that is not necessary for your reply (whether it appears before or after your own message). If the post you are replying to is a recent one, you may assume that other members will have seen it. Salutation etc Please use a salutation at the beginning of each post, and sign off at the end (preferably with a real name). Thanks for your co-operation. Jon and Sarah PS Comments or questions off-list, please. Thanks. 28140 From: philofillet Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 4:02am Subject: Re: How we 'think' we'll act Hello Christine, and Herman, and all. Glad to hear things turned out well, Christine. I think about this sort of thing quite often. I worry that my fledgling practice wouldn't stand up well to a really tough blow. Or, in my case, getting cut off by a car when I'm cycling could throw me into a sudden nasty outburst of anger if I don't have my Upekka (equanimity) firmly fastened when I hit the road! As for the health/illness thing, someone at another group pointed out to me that the reason I wonder how I would stand up if I were ill is that I'm too strongly attached to the notion of "health" - well, I'll have to be further along the path until I can let that attachment go, I'm afraid. I have been learning more lately about the practice of embracing pain, in its less severe forms, and seeing through it rather than running away from it. Haven't been running for the aspirin as soon as I have a slight headache like I used to. By the way, I'm a new member. I look forward to learning from you all. With Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I value this post highly, because you have written about what was > experienced how it was experienced, not how it should have been > experienced. <......> 28141 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 5:26am Subject: before going to sleep Dear Ken O, It is so good you consider Dhamma before going into Bhavangatown. It makes me think of Suan's admonition that it can be our last sleep. Considering the Dhamma can become our habitual kamma that can produce a happy rebirth. You bring up very good points: ignorance and asankharika, conceit, wrong view, etc. Later on I can also look at them and see what I can add. Sarah and I have a Co to the Abh. Sangaha which is very useful. Nina. 28142 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:33am Subject: moha I read in Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" that moha is delusion, a synonym for avijja, and that avijja is ignorance of the four noble truths and the most persistent of the ten fetters. My questions is: What's moha? "Duh! You just gave a definition for it, Dan. Why are you asking if you already know?!" Reciting a definition and *knowing* something are two different things. There are many people on this list who are so good at explaining things that I was hoping someone could help me understand this term -- what it means, how to explain it, how to recognize it, what its impact is, etc... Dan 28143 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:54am Subject: The Wrong View And Conceit Dear Ken O, Robert K, Nina, Mike Niece and all How are you? Suppose we keep reading the teachings of Gotama the Buddha and the commentaries of Aacariya Buddhaghosa, and suppose also that we understand and accept them, then we could well have the right view at the level of the good worldly humans (kalyaa.na puthujjana). When the mind with greed arises in the good worldly human, it would do so without the wrong view. But, as there is no wrong view, the mind with greed may arise with conceit or may not. What I am getting at is that an appreciative follower of Gotama the Buddha or Theravada teachings can be deemed to be without the wrong view (otherwise, they won't be following those teachings). If I have to copy from the whiteboard what I wrote for my second-year students, it is as follows. I was explaining the nature of idealism in the Clinical Bodhiology class. "A Viewpoint As How To Deal With Reality Idealism as a way of dealing with reality regards the mental as the ultimate reality, does not accept matter as reality. Someone who suffers from idealism treats hallucinations (generated by his mind) as realities, imagines things, is in denial." End Quote. As you see, the wrong view serves as a tool to deal with reality. Of course, in this case it would deal with reality in the wrong way. By contrast, conceit is to do with who or what we are or who or what we are not, or what we have or what we do not have. So even a Theravadin Buddhist has the problems of who or what one is or who or what one is not, or what one has or what one does not have. These problems are those of conceit and arise in the greed-associated mind without the wrong view. Why would conceit arise in the greed- associated mind? Think about it on your own for now. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong > wrote: > > Hi Robert > > > DearKen, > Conceit and wrong view are different. Take the case of when you were > (perhaps?) confused about sakkya-ditthi. Maybe you had ideas that > some dhammas are controllable? And this is self view. Then later you > began to realise that all dhammas are conditioned and fundamentally > not under mastery of any self. This is right view. But at that same > time that right view appeared was there any self satisfaction about > this right view.That is conceit. Very natural; very, very common. > But different from wrong view. > RobertK 28144 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 7:02am Subject: Re: moha Dear Dan, Always good to hear from you! Is there any moha now? Are the characteristics of seeing and visble object discerned clearly, one is rupa the other nama. If not then is moha present? Without first discerning the nature of the realities of the present moment how can we really see ariya sacca (noble truth) such as dukkha. So moha and lobha are so common and obscure reality. There is almost always running among concepts and moha is one of the prime causes of this. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > I is: > What's moha? > 28145 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Jon and Michael I found some info on sabhava dhamma in the book Summary of the topic of Abdhidhamma and Exposition of the Topics of Abdhidhamma translated by R.P. Wijeratne and Rupert Gethin. In the commentary of the Prologue, there is an explanation of the Utimate Dhammas "Alternatively, consciouness is the mere act of being conscious (cintana) . For it is its mere occurence in accordance with conditions that is called 'a dhamma with its own particular nature' (sabhava-dhamma). In consideration of this, it is the definition of the particular nature of ultimate dhammas that is taken as absolute: the explanation by way of agent (kattar) and instrument (karana) should be seen as a relative manner of speaking. For a dhamma's being treated as an agent and also its being[treated] in consequence as an instrument, by attributing the state of agent to a group of conascent dhammas, are both taken as a relative manner of speaking. The explanation in these terms should be understood as for the purpose of indicating the non-existence of an agent, etc apart for the particular nature of a dhamma." I hope that clarify sabhava-dhamma. The author of the books is attributed to Anuruddha. Thats all folks and happy discussing for both of you. Cheers and kind regards Ken O 28146 From: Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) Hi, TG (and Christine) - In a message dated 12/21/03 2:12:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > Hi Christine > > In a message dated 12/20/2003 10:02:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > >Hello TG, and all, > > > >Thanks TG - I understand what you are telling me, this is how the > >world appears to me, to all of us. But doesn't this bring us to an > >awkward spot here? :-) > > TG: Not at all. > > What about citta/cetasika and rupa? Never > >did find out how long a citta/cetasika can linger ... (17 times less > >than a rupa?) :-) > > TG: Consciousness is a faster form of energy than form. Energies move at > different speeds due to different causal conditions. > > > > > >I have been taught, here on dsg, and in abhidhamma books, that the > >Buddha taught that no 'thing' exists for even a moment. > > TG: The notion, for example, that hardness arises for one moment and then > is > immediately replaced by another hardness is NOT taught in the suttas. The > few references that the Buddha makes as to how things wear away are > expressed in > very common sense terms; and indicates that it is the contact between states > > that cause them to wear away. > > I would agree that nothing exists "as a self" for even a moment, but I don't > > think that's the issue at hand. > > That mental > > > >and physical phenomena rise and fall away with incredible speed, and > >there is a 'mind moment' in between when it is there, but > >changing ... the flux or continuum. That what we see is an > >appearance of a solid lasting thing but is really groups of events > >that cannot stay for even a moment. > >This is the same way we see a continuous ring of fire > >if someone is whirling a burning stick. Within this rapid change > >(which, looking out my study window, I can't discern) physical > >phenomena and mental phenomena are said to be renewed ceaselessly. > >Accepting myself and the world in this way has helped me to > >understand more about anatta and conditionality, about no control - > >but I do feel hesitant about the theory, hence I continue to look > >into it ... Samanera Bodhesako seemed to be tackling the subject from > >a different angle. > > TG: My response is... > 1) The above theory is not in the slightest taught by the Buddha in the > Suttas. > 2) I think you have good grounds for feeling hesitant about a theory that > is > beyond knowable experience and perhaps common sense. > 3) In my opinion, the optical experience called "persistence of vision" is > unrelated to the above impermanence theory. > 4) In the Visuddhimagga, one of the ways described to develop impermanence > insight is to realize that nothing traverses through time unchanged. For > example...nothing in the 1st decade of one's life traverses into the 2nd > decade and > so on. This type of analysis is described in proceeding smaller and smaller > > increments. > To me, this is just saying that things are continuously altering. I do not > believe it is meant to mean that something has completely fallen away and > something completely new has arisen. I think it has been mis-understood by > some > people in this way... i.e., to think of impermanence in a digital on-off > fashion. > > Because states are continuously altering, how could any state traverse > through time? Its always at least slightly different due to continuously > altering > conditions. Its basically another way of saying "no-self" because > something > would have to be a self to traverse through time and there isn't any such > thing/state. > > I believe nature is altering in a analog fashion. It is not a digital > "on-off" phenomena IMO. > > TG > ============================ Well, the bottom line is that we just don't know, and in the suttas this is an issue not addressed by the Buddha, who largely taught in conventional terms. But I think that the discrete vs continuous (or digital vs analog) issue is off the point. What is critical, as I see it, are two points: 1) Nothing remains - e.g., an odor is observed, but at some later time a sound is noted instead, and later "the" odor is noted again; sadness arises, but at some later time it is quite clear that no sadness is present, but completely gone at that time; distractedness is present, but at some later time time it is clear that the mind is composed, the distractedness completely gone at that time, and 2) With the development of heightened concentration, energy, calm, and mindfulness, the non-remaining is seen to occur at way finer intervals than previously, to the extent even of the world seeming to fly away at blinding speed. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28147 From: Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/21/03 2:15:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > Thanks for this. I'd have had no idea! > > In the end, however, I don't think the history of the different > schools has any real bearing on the central question of whether a > particular view is or is not in conformity with the Buddha's original > teaching. Nothing one reads should be taken as 'gospel'. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I completely agree. ---------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ======================= With metta, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Michael) - > ... > >========================== > > I could, of course, be way wrong, but my understanding is > >that the > >perfection of wisdom suttas of early Mahayana, and the work of > >Nagarjuna, were > >responses not to Theravada, but to the Sarvastivada and Sautrantika > >schools > >which were seriously infected by substantialism-eternalism and > >annihilationism. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28148 From: Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 3:18am Subject: A Nice Reference for Bhavanga Hi, all - Whether bhavanga cittas are a reality or not, and whether there is a conceptual need for them or not, I do think that the following presentation is a rather good one and one which shows the Theravadin notions of bhavanga and bhavangasota to be far more "innocent" than their Mahayana first cousin of 'alayavijnana' (storehouse consciousness), the latter smacking strongly of substantialism, if not eternalism: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/budtch/budteach20.htm With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28149 From: Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How we 'think' we'll act Hi, Herman - In a message dated 12/21/03 3:09:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Christine, > > I value this post highly, because you have written about what was > experienced how it was experienced, not how it should have been > experienced. > > An embarassing and scary thing happened to me recently. Vicki, my > wife, was a couple of hours overdue from work, and I was becoming a > little bit frantic and annoyed. I rang her up on her mobile, and she > answered, cool as a cucumber. I blurted something out, but when she > reminded me that she had told me that lunchtime that she would be at > a Christmas function, I suddenly remembered. It changed everything. > But when you don't know, you just don't know. > > It was a reminder to me to make no judgments about anything, because > you can only know whatever comes to you. > > Glad to hear that whatever ailed you wasn't there. > > Best wishes and Christmas hugs > > Herman > ============================ Herman, you sound to me just like me! ;-) When we really love someone, we are vitally concerned with their welfare, and when there is reason for que stioning that welfare, being worldlings, and attached, we suffer great worry, great consternation, really enormous dukkha. Perhaps some day we will have put away our defilements, and then we can experience love and compassion and concern without the frantic upset, but until then, the dukkha of worry is the price we willingly pay to love and to be alive (and not dried up husks). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28150 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:26am Subject: Re: A Nice Reference for Bhavanga Hi Howard and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > Whether bhavanga cittas are a reality or not, and whether there is a > conceptual need for them or not, I do think that the following presentation is > a rather good one and one which shows the Theravadin notions of bhavanga and > bhavangasota to be far more "innocent" than their Mahayana first cousin of > 'alayavijnana' (storehouse consciousness), the latter smacking strongly of > substantialism, if not eternalism: > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/budtch/budteach20.htm I read this article and I didn't see anything mentioned about storehouse consciousness ('alayavijnana'). Are these your conclusions or did I miss something? I found the article interesting but I am curious as to how anyone is able to know the type of consciousness while sleeping, or how it is like the consciousness of death. Did the Buddha state this in any sutta? From what I have read of sleep studies, and I have even participated in a sleep study, there are several stages to sleep with varying mental activity in each stage. According to this article sleep is either dreaming or being like one who is dead. I don't know if this is scientifically accurate and, most importantly, I have no idea what it has to do with Buddhism. Is it to decrease fear of death because it is supposed to be like sleeping? Or is to keep one mindful of death while sleeping? Is kamma generated while sleeping? What about dreams about killing someone? Would that generate bad kamma? What if someone kills someone while sleep walking (which occurred sometime back in Arizona)? What kind of kamma would that generate? Hmmm…I have a lot of questions it seems. The second thing I found interesting about the article is the check list of the various negative consequences of negative actions. I have never seen that before. Who would have known that lying causes bad breath? ;-) The writer didn't give a source for this material so I don't know where it comes from. Do you know? > > With metta, > Howard Metta, James 28151 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Jon, See below, >From: Jonothan Abbott >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics >Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:18:32 +0800 (CST) > >Michael > > --- Michael Beisert wrote: > > Hello Jon, >... >Michael: >I was thinking about the opinions expressed by Bhikkhu Bodhi in the >Introduction to the ‘Abhdhammattha Sangaha,’ and in the Introduction >to ‘Abhidhamma Studies’ by Nyanaponika Thera. Wouldn’t you agree that >he is a well respected modern Theravada scholar? > >Jon: >Absolutely, but there are considerable differences of view even among >well-respected modern scholars and, in any event, what is one to make >of any differences with the ancient writers? In the end I think one >has to go back to the original source as far as that is possible. > Michael: Well, and what would be the original sources? There is no agreement on that either. Everyone for himself/herself has to find a way of qualifying the teachings. One should strive to acquire that discernment. >Michael: >If one regards the dhammas as a collection of conditions, and one can >see that there is a ‘higher’ level of a collection of conditions, >which conventionally we call a person, then one can infer that there >must be a ‘lower’ level of a collection of conditions below the >dhammas. Of course if one assumes the dhammas to be ultimate reality >then this will not be acceptable. > >Jon: >I haven't yet understood this idea of dhammas as a collection of >conditions. Perhaps you could explain a little further. If, >according to this idea, the conventional notion of a person is in >reality (a level of) a collection of conditions, what is the >relationship between dhammas and the notion of person (since you have >described both as a 'collection of conditions')? > Michael: It seems quite obvious to me. The concept of a person arises from a deluded mind. One can divide the person into a multitude of parts. Like body parts, elements, dhammas, etc. And the divison and subdivision can go on indefinitely. There is no final substratum that one can argue really exists. Dhammas only exist because of conditionality therefore one can say that they arise from a collection of conditions. And a person will arise from another set or collection of conditions. >Michael: >I don’t think dhammas are paramatha, that is not what I read in the >suttas. > >Jon: >Are you saying that what you read in the suttas is what you have >described here as 'dhammas as a collection of conditions'? Michael: Whoever sees dependent origination sees the dhamma ... That's all I have to say > >Michael: >To use a simple illustration [regarding the notion of regularity], >imagine the leaves of the trees turning yellow in the Fall, this >happens due to a series of causes and conditions, and the yellow >color, which is the characteristic of the leaves in the Fall, is not >intrinsic to those leaves but is a consequence of causes and >conditions. Now, regularity is that those leaves will always turn >yellow when those causes and conditions are present, and not due to >something intrinsic in the leaves. Because every fall the leaves turn >yellow an ordinary mind could attribute that characteristic to the >leaves and not to the causes and conditions. Of course few people do >that in relation to leaves, but with other more abstract >phenomena/objects it is not difficult to attribute the characteristic >as something intrinsic to that ‘thing’. > >Jon: >I follow so far, but I don’t see how this relates to dhammas and >their distinctive characteristic. Could you perhaps give a specific >example? > Michael: It's clear enough to me. A leave turns yellow in Fall and this is a distinctive characteristic of leaves in the Fall. Does it mean the leaves own that characteristic, it is intrinsic to them? Of course not. Could the leaves have another characteristic? Yes, if conditions would be different. The same logic applies to any phenomena. >Sorry to be a little slow in getting your points. Michael: Yeah. The turnaround has been really slow. I will have to stop this thread here though because I will be unavailable in the next days. So maybe later we can catch up. Metta Michael 28152 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hy Jon, See below ... >From: Jonothan Abbott >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics >Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:22:51 +0800 (CST) > >Michael > > --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Howard, > > > > Howard: > > I could, of course, be way wrong, but my understanding is that the > > perfection of wisdom suttas of early Mahayana, and the work of > > Nagarjuna, > > were > > responses not to Theravada, but to the Sarvastivada and Sautrantika > > schools > > which were seriously infected by substantialism-eternalism and > > annihilationism.. > > > > Michael: > > I think you are right but the point is that those ideas also found > > their way into the Theravada commentaries. > >Interesting. Do you have any particular commentaries in mind? I am >not aware of any 'substantialism-eternalism and annihilationism' >views in the commentaries -- in fact just the opposite. Michael: The one that springs to mind is the Visudhimagga. It has been discussed to some length here already in relation to the analysis made by D. Kalupahana. Metta Michael 28153 From: Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 4:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) Hi Howard Christines original question seemed to concern the physics of impermanence as much or more so than the phenomenological experience of it. I agree that what boils down to actual experience is primary; but the analysis of physical "happenings" is also an important insight tool and the Buddha uses such physical examples of impermanence very often in the suttas -- oceans, mountains, treasures, and all sorts of other objects. There are 3 examples in the suttas where the Buddha addresses the issue of -- how things are worn away. I'll just give one here. The Buddha describes the length of an aeon with the analogy of a cloth being rubbed across a 'seven mile cubed' rock once every one hundred years. "The rock would sooner be worn away than the period of an aeon would expire." He is clearly showing (in my mind) that friction wears things out in a gradual manner. (Of course he'd have to replace those cloths pretty often.) ;-) TG In a message dated 12/21/2003 8:01:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Well, the bottom line is that we just don't know, and in the suttas > this is an issue not addressed by the Buddha, who largely taught in > conventional > terms. > But I think that the discrete vs continuous (or digital vs analog) > issue is off the point. What is critical, as I see it, are two points: 1) > Nothing > remains - e.g., an odor is observed, but at some later time a sound is noted > > instead, and later "the" odor is noted again; sadness arises, but at some > later time it is quite clear that no sadness is present, but completely gone > at > that time; distractedness is present, but at some later time time it is > clear > that the mind is composed, the distractedness completely gone at that time, > and > 2) With the development of heightened concentration, energy, calm, and > mindfulness, the non-remaining is seen to occur at way finer intervals than > previously, to the extent even of the world seeming to fly away at blinding > speed. > > With metta, > Howard > 28154 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: How we 'think' we'll act Hello Philip, (Herman) and all, Welcome to the List. :-) I guess that the unpredictability of our own reactions underlines the teachings on no-self and conditionality. I'd say you'd have to be alert and have your wits about you as a cyclist, considering some of the drivers' on the roads nowadays (me!). I'll be patient and forebearing if the conditions are there for me to be so, and if not, I won't. Is there anything you would care to say about how you came to be interested in the Dhamma and where you live? - the rest of us are a pretty varied group, people of all ages from North and South America, Europe, India, Africa, all over Asia and Australasia (and, no doubt, elsewhere). You can see scads of us in the various photo albums at: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst It is also worth having a look at the various topics under Useful Posts (click on the fourth link from the top) in the Files page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philofillet" 28155 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:08am Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not Hi Sukin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > I was hoping others would respond :-(, but maybe they are waiting > for something more exiting. No, I personally wasn't waiting for something more exciting, I just didn't quite understand your question or where you were coming from. It seemed to be a provisional type of question that didn't state exactly what you were looking for. Personally, I believe that Buddhist meditation is part of the Noble Eightfold Path. The Eightfold Path can roughly be categorized as: Morality, Meditation, and Wisdom and they each condition each other. I am a strong believer in Meditation and I am a strong believer in Morality because I believe in kamma; (that isn't to say I perfectly practice either one, but I have been much better as of late). Wisdom is the one that is a little tricky to me. Take for example this group: here we have two camps of people who either fully believe in the Abhidhamma, or don't fully believe in it. From my perspective, those who believe in it are wrong and are lacking in a certain kind of wisdom, otherwise they wouldn't believe in it (Sorry, I am just being honest). From their perspective I am the one who is wrong and am lacking in a certain kind of wisdom because I don't believe in it. I have been told as much but usually in a very politically correct way. Rob M. states that belief or disbelief in the Abhidhamma has nothing to do with wisdom but is more a personal preference caused by accumulations and conditioning. I like Rob M's approach but I think it is more than a personal preference; I flat out don't believe in the Abhidhamma and don't believe that it is true Buddhism. Therefore, some say that simply believing in Buddhism (as opposed to Christianity or something else) is Right View and Right Understanding but I don't think so. I think that is a start but I think that it takes a lot more to have wisdom. I accept the possibility that I am wrong about the Abhidhamma and that the others are right, but it can't be both. Really, sticky issues come up when looking at meditation and morality also. In Buddhism, things are not always cut and dry all the time. I don't know if I have answered your question or just rambled on pointlessly. If you ask a more specific question maybe I won't ramble as much! ;-) > Metta, > Sukin. Metta, James 28156 From: Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 5:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Nice Reference for Bhavanga Hi, James - In a message dated 12/21/03 12:26:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Hi Howard and All, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, all - > > > > Whether bhavanga cittas are a reality or not, and whether > there is a > >conceptual need for them or not, I do think that the following > presentation is > >a rather good one and one which shows the Theravadin notions of > bhavanga and > >bhavangasota to be far more "innocent" than their Mahayana first > cousin of > >'alayavijnana' (storehouse consciousness), the latter smacking > strongly of > >substantialism, if not eternalism: > > > >http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/budtch/budteach20.htm > > I read this article and I didn't see anything mentioned about > storehouse consciousness ('alayavijnana'). Are these your > conclusions or did I miss something? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The article talked only about bhavanga cittas, not storehouse consciousness. I've learned about the latter from other sources, where it is clear that it is a substantialist-eternalist notion as adopted by much of Mahayana (though perhaps not in the original formulation by Vasubandhu). The conclusion is mine, based on this article (about bhavanga cittas) and my knowledge from other sources of alayavijnana. ------------------------------------------------- I found the article interesting > > but I am curious as to how anyone is able to know the type of > consciousness while sleeping, or how it is like the consciousness of > death. Did the Buddha state this in any sutta? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think so. Moreover, it doesn't seriously occur in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. It is a commentarial notion, and it may or may not have validity. I have no idea. The notion is not unreasonable, but that proves nothing. My point was merely to show that it is not an essentialist-eternalist notion but is well in line with the anatta perspective of Buddhism. --------------------------------------------------- From what I have > > read of sleep studies, and I have even participated in a sleep study, > there are several stages to sleep with varying mental activity in > each stage. According to this article sleep is either dreaming or > being like one who is dead. I don't know if this is scientifically > accurate and, most importantly, I have no idea what it has to do with > Buddhism. Is it to decrease fear of death because it is supposed to > be like sleeping? Or is to keep one mindful of death while > sleeping? Is kamma generated while sleeping? What about dreams > about killing someone? Would that generate bad kamma? What if > someone kills someone while sleep walking (which occurred sometime > back in Arizona)? What kind of kamma would that generate? Hmmm…I > have a lot of questions it seems. > > The second thing I found interesting about the article is the check > list of the various negative consequences of negative actions. I > have never seen that before. Who would have known that lying causes > bad breath? ;-) The writer didn't give a source for this material so > I don't know where it comes from. Do you know? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Can't say now - I'm too busy brushing my teeth! ----------------------------------------------- > > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > Metta, James > =============================== With sleepy metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28157 From: Larry Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:37am Subject: Re: moha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > What's moha? Larry: Huh????????????????????????? 28158 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 0:02pm Subject: FW: [Pali] thorn simile in Pali Canon? Dear Rob K, Sarah and all, You remember that a long time ago we studied with Jim wholesome craving for arahatship, in the Netti (the Guide)? I frwd this, since it came up in the Pali list. Dear John, This is a very subtle point and I like to research myself. M. 137 explains about sorrow connected with renunciation and how this sorrow arises as a result of desire. The Co (in Thai) is very good, but I need more time. Netti: 87: craving that is profitable and unprofitable. Thorn, ka.n.taka (n), I looked up PED: A. V, 135: the thornless thorn-removers are arahats. This weekend I am engaged with worldly craving, but in the course of next week I try again. Nina. op 21-12-2003 02:54 schreef John Kelly op palistudent@y...: > Does anyone know where in the Pali canon there is a > simile about removing a thorn with a thorn then > throwing both thorns away? This is in reference to > craving for Arahatship helps motivate one to attain > Arahatship, and so end all craving. > 28159 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 3:55pm Subject: more spirits Dear Robert Why can't farangs see phi or deva and Merry Christmas. I hope you get all you want and Alex too. I'm sorry I can't make this letter longer because the lesson is running short and I cannot use the computer at home. Charles 28160 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 7:27pm Subject: Re: more spirits Hi Charles, I think maybe most farang are not so interested in phi and deva and so even if they were there we wouldn't know. In one book it says that devas don't much like the smell of humans because some of the bad things we do sometimes like telling lies or stealing gives a bad fragrance(for devas) that even perfume can't mask. So the devas usually don't like to be near most humans. But who knows? Best wishes for Xmas too. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear Robert > > Why can't farangs see phi or deva and Merry Christmas. > I hope you get all you want and Alex too. > > I'm sorry I can't make this letter longer because the > lesson is running short and I cannot use the computer > at home. > > Charles 28161 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How we 'think' we'll act Dear Philip, welcome to the list. We all cling to health, it is natural. But it is good to realize that we cling. Thus, we do not run away from clinging but try to understand more about it. I hope you find the discussions here useful, Nina. op 21-12-2003 13:02 schreef philofillet op plnao@j...: > I have been learning more lately about the practice of embracing > pain, in its less severe forms, and seeing through it rather than > running away from it. Haven't been running for the aspirin as soon as > I have a slight headache like I used to. 28162 From: Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Nice Reference for Bhavanga Ven. Narada Mahathera: "In the opinion of Western philosophers sub-consciousness and consciousness co-exist. But, according to Buddhist philosophy, no two types of consciousness co-exist." Hi all, I think I have a qualm with this. It seems to me that everything in consciousness process which is not an object of consciousness could be called sub-consciousness in the sense that it is mental machination that we are not aware of. So all the cetasikas that accompany consciousness are sub-conscious until they become objects of consciousness, one at a time. It seems obvious to me that there is a lot going on in other people's minds that they are unaware of, and I am sure it is the same for me. Also, "accumulations" (ayuhana) might be a closer parallel to "store-house consciousness" than bhavanga. Bhavanga consciousness itself is very mysterious. The only reason it seems blank is because of extreme subtlety [I guess?]. My understanding is that it is a consciousness of an object repeated over and over again. I also vaguely remember it is responsible for producing bodily rupa. Is this right? Larry 28163 From: Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Nice Reference for Bhavanga Hi, Larry - In a message dated 12/22/03 12:21:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Ven. Narada Mahathera: "In the opinion of Western philosophers > sub-consciousness and consciousness co-exist. But, according to Buddhist > philosophy, no two types of consciousness co-exist." > > Hi all, > > I think I have a qualm with this. It seems to me that everything in > consciousness process which is not an object of consciousness could be > called sub-consciousness in the sense that it is mental machination that > we are not aware of. So all the cetasikas that accompany consciousness > are sub-conscious until they become objects of consciousness, one at a > time. It seems obvious to me that there is a lot going on in other > people's minds that they are unaware of, and I am sure it is the same > for me. > > Also, "accumulations" (ayuhana) might be a closer parallel to > "store-house consciousness" than bhavanga. Bhavanga consciousness itself > is very mysterious. The only reason it seems blank is because of extreme > subtlety [I guess?]. My understanding is that it is a consciousness of > an object repeated over and over again. I also vaguely remember it is > responsible for producing bodily rupa. Is this right? > > Larry > ========================== This may well go against Abhidhamma, but I believe that the cetasikas, as cetasikas (and not as object), are experiential parts of mindstates. After a given mindstate or sequence of mindstates in which the feeling was pleasantness, we can look back and say "That was pleasant," and that implies that the pleasantness was a (participatory) aspect of the experience. Likewise for distractedness, worry, calm, etc. When we examine an object with a calm mind, the calmness is part of the experience, but is not the object of the experience. So, I do not think that the cetasikas are either unconscious or even subconscious - they are simply not the arammana. Accumulations and inclinations (anusaya), on the other hand, are things I'm not very clear about. However, the notion of permanent or semi-permanent structures in the mind is worrisome to me from an anatta perspective. Perhaps accumulations and inclinations on any occasion amount to nothing more than the particular combination of cetasikas present in the current mindstate or in prior mindstates. Certain groups of cetasikas tend to condition future groups of cetasikas, and that may be all there is to accumulations and inclinations. We are "inclined" to react in certain ways due to the cetasikas that have just arisen or that previously arose. (Conditionality need not hold only between immediately successive mindstates, I think, though I could be wrong on this. The issue isn't critical.) In this case, it may be incorrect to think of accumulations and inclinations as subconscious. Of course, any elements of a mindstate, including the object, the awareness itself, and the cetasikas, may occur with varying intensities, and any of these occuring with very low intensity could be thought of as subconscious/subliminal. Bhavanga cittas, if they are actualities, are most likely minimal-intensity mindstates. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28164 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:04pm Subject: Question on Brahma Viharas Hello All, On another list, a member put out a call for others to band together and to perform a Metta Bhavana on Christmas Eve in unison and radiate loving-kindness to the whole world, mentioning in particular, Palestine, West Bank, and Afghanistan. (One would also hope those 38 Afghanis fasting on Nauru.) Is this a lovely, generous thought, possibly even an effective way to bring about change in the world, or is it just wishful sweet thinking - a soothing balm to those of us not in control of our countries policies? I remember others writing about the 'near' enemies of the Brahma Viharas and how very easily people mistook them for the genuine article. Things like selfish affection and lust being the near enemy of metta, and pity and aversion being the near enemy of compassion. I know there have been a couple of discussions coming down on the side of radiating metta only to others and not oneself, but should metta be projected to *individual* others, or only to *groups and categories*? Have we ever discussed whether the Brahma Viharas actually have an effect on others visualised, or only on the person 'projecting' them? i.e. the 'psychic lightning' vs. 'self development'. [Just by the by ... Do you think (if the psychic lightning hypothesis works) that a whole mob of us could co-ordinate our metta and zap the three B's - President Bush and Prime Ministers Blair and Bonsai (Little Bush) a.k.a. Howard and bring about a change in world politics? :-) I'm up for it, if anyone thinks it has half a chance :-)] metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28165 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:30pm Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not Hi Sukin, Thanks for starting this thread. Apart from "well said" and "me too," I don't have much to add at this stage. (Lost for words.) ------------- S: > I am thinking about how our preconceptions lead us to interpret anything in a way best suited, and we think we *do* understand the meaning of the `Teachings' themselves. It is almost as if the Texts have little power as compared to our own inclinations. ------------- Exactly! Were I not in fear of the Trimming monitors, I would just repost your entire message :-) ------------- S: > Let us try to make things more clear for ourselves as well as for the other. I think it is important to get it right, the difference at this point may seem quite small, since both sides similarly quote the Tipitaka, and this can obscure the more fundamental difference, I think. -------------- Looking forward to the next instalment, Ken H 28166 From: Sarah Date: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi Larry, Apologies for this late ambush post...... I hope you weren’t being serious when you wrote to Nina: --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > I liked your treatment of the senses as pointing toward revulsion with > the body. This made me wonder if it says anywhere in scripture or > commentary that it is a disadvantage to be blind or deaf, and if so, > why? I have many times thought it would be a great advantage to be deaf. > Plus I like sign language. I wish I could do it. But I think I am more > likely to loose my sight in old age. .... I meant to chip in at the time. I think it’s very misguided to think that there is any advantage to being blind or deaf - results of akusala kamma. I have taught children who are both and I can assure you, life is very difficult and there is certainly no less attachment to hearing or seeing as a result. I remember once spending time with an elderly man on a long boat trip to Australia. He had recently become deaf as a result of an air compression accident on a plane (he only took boats now)and we wrote each other notes. He told me his wife had also lost her hearing in the same accident and unable to bear it had committed suicide. Appreciate your good fortune whilst you still have your faculties and develop awareness of the realities instead;-) I’m prompted to give this ramble now as I just remembered this sutta may be relevant: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn152.html Here’s an extract: “As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him: "Uttara, does the brahman Parasiri teach his followers the development of the faculties?" "Yes, master Gotama, he does." "And how does he teach his followers the development of the faculties?" "There is the case where one does not see forms with the eye, or hear sounds with the ear [in a trance of non-perception]. That's how the brahman Parasiri teaches his followers the development of the faculties." "That being the case, Uttara, then a blind person will have developed faculties, and a deaf person will have developed faculties, according to the words of the brahman Parasiri. For a blind person does not see forms with the eye, and a deaf person does not hear sounds with the ear." When this was said, the young brahman Uttara sat silent & abashed, his shoulders slumped, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words. The Blessed One -- noticing that Uttara was sitting silent & abashed, his shoulders slumped, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words -- said to Ven. Ananda, "Ananda, the development of the faculties that the brahman Parasiri teaches his followers is one thing, but the unexcelled development of the faculties in the discipline of a noble one is something else entirely." "Now is the time, O Blessed One. Now is the time, O One Well-Gone, for the Blessed One to teach the unexcelled development of the faculties in the discipline of the noble one. Having heard the Blessed One, the monks will remember it." "In that case, Ananda, listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," Ven. Ananda responded to the Blessed One. The Blessed One said: "Now how, Ananda, in the discipline of a noble one is there the unexcelled development of the faculties? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing... this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as a man with good eyes, having closed them, might open them; or having opened them, might close them, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to forms cognizable by the eye. "Furthermore, when hearing a sound with the ear, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing... this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as a strong man might easily snap his fingers, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to sounds cognizable by the ear.” ***** Metta, Sarah ==== 28167 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies Dear Nina (& Ben), Another late reply... --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > N: Before I had different ideas of latent tendencies, but this study is > an > eye opener. It uses many texts from the Yamaka, the sixth Book of the > Abhidhamma, which does not have an English translation. The Guide > through > the Abhidhamma Pitaka gives a good summary. .... Yes, what I’ve read in the Guide thr’ A.P. has always just given me an appetite for the Yamaka, though I’m sure it’s very difficult and the Guide is such a helpful little book. Under Anusaya-Yamaka “(1-5, with 6 and 7) ‘to whomsoever Sensuous Craving, Anger, Conceit, Erroneous opinion and Scepticism adhere, do there also Craving for Existence, and Ignorance adhere? - Yes.” ..... N: > I had underestimated the strength of latent tendencies, I thought that > they > are just subtle, and did not pay much heed. I thought, well, only at > enlightenment they will be eradicated. They are subtle anyway. But I got > the > wrong notion of subtle defilements. > Now it is repeated again and again that they are strong, powerful, > because > they are not eradicated. <...> > Akusala is heaped up again and again!! .... I look forward to the series! .... N: >Makes us have more work to get > rid of > it. When the object is right for the defilement, there is the > opportunity > for being added to the latent tendencies Thus, they change all the time > while citta arises and falls away. It is repeated; we are very sick, > even > when the microbes do not break out. .... Again we need that medicine Htoo described. .... N: > Also the role of feeling which experiences the taste of the object is > explained. This helps to have a sense of urgency. .... In his introduction to the Brahmajala Sutta (p32), B.Bodhi discusses why wrong views satisfy craving, ‘desires based on the lack of understanding..’ and discusses more on the 3 kinds of craving, kaamata.nhaa, bhavata.nhaa and vibhavata.nhaa and how these lead to the various kinds of wrong views. (I can elaborate further if Ben wishes), Also, he writes about feeling that it is “the ‘bait of the round’ (va.t.taamisa) which will be swallowed when left unexamined, but will be discarded if the hook it conceals is detected. Ignorance of feeling means not seeing its origin, passing away, satisfaction, unsatisfactoriness, and the escape from it.....” We’re so very influenced by our feelings all the time, constantly craving the pleasant and not seeing the bait as it is. .... N: > I may need to order Yamaka Pali. Also other commentaries, such as the Co > to > the Path of Discrimination is used and also this is not in English. ..... I’m not sure, but I think I heard there is an English transl of Yamaka in Burma. Not sure. Maybe Suan knows. Metta, Sarah ====== 28169 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 0:56am Subject: kaamagu.na - cords or strands of sensuality Dear Friends, (esp. those who were in Bkk when there was discussion about kaamagu.na), I wrote a couple of weeks ago: >....in a different context he (Num) was raising qus about the Mahapunnama Sutta, MN109, as I recall. In this sutta we read about the upadana khandhas rooted in desire. We read that ‘the clinging is neither the same as these five aggregates affected by clinging, nor is the clinging something apart from the five aggregates affected by clinging.It is the desire and lust in regard to the five aggregates affected by clinging that is the clinging there.’ The Buddha is then asked about the diversity in the desire regarding the upadana khandha and explains the various wishes or desires that may arise.< In the commentary to the Maharahulavada sutta, Nina translated: >raagoti pa~ncakaamagu.nikaraago As to the word attachment, this is attachment with regard to the five objects of sensual pleasure.< I realized this is the same expression of kaamagu.na that Num was asking about. Kaamagu.na - literarlly ‘cords or strands of sensuality’. From the Nyantiloka dictionary, under kaama: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/kaama.htm káma may denote: 1. subjective sensuality, 'sense-desire'; 2. objective sensuality, the five sense-objects. 1. Subjective sensuality, or sense-desire, is directed to all five sense-objects, and is synonymous with káma-cchanda, 'sensuous desire', one of the 5 hindrances (nívarana); káma-rága, sensuous lust', one of the ten fetters (samyojana); káma-tanhá, 'sensuous craving', one of the 3 cravings (tanhá); káma-vitakka, 'sensuous thought', one of the 3 wrong thoughts (micchá-sankappa; s. vitakka). Sense-desire is also one of the cankers (ásava) and clinging (upádána). 2. Objective sensuality is, in the canonical texts, mostly called káma-guna, 'cords (or strands) of sensuality'. "There are 5 cords of sensuality: the visible objects, cognizable by eye-consciousness, that are desirable, cherished, pleasant, lovely, sensuous and alluring; the sounds ... smells ... tastes ... bodily impressions cognizable by body-consciousness, that are desirable .... " (D.33; M.13, 26, 59, 66). These two kinds of káma are called 1. kilesa-káma, i.e. káma as a mental defilement, 2. vatthu-káma, i.e. káma as the object-base of sensuality; first in MNid.. I, p. 1, and frequently in the commentaries. Sense-desire is finally eliminated at the stage of the Non-Returner (Anágámi; s. ariya-puggala, samyojana). The peril and misery of sense-desire is often described in the texts, e.g. in stirring similes at M. 22, 54, and in the 'gradual instruction' (s. ánupubbí-kathá). See further M.13, M.45, M.75; Sn.v.766ff.; Dhp.186, 215. The texts often stress the fact that what fetters man to the world of the senses are not the sense-organs nor the sense-objects but lustful desire (chandarága). On this see A.VI.63; S.XXXV.122, 191. - (App.). ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 28170 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:37am Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not Hi James (and Herman), Your post was a pleasant read, I on the other hand tend to get lost and end up mixing things up. > No, I personally wasn't waiting for something more exciting, I just > didn't quite understand your question or where you were coming from. > It seemed to be a provisional type of question that didn't state > exactly what you were looking for. Yes, I still don't have any particular question in mind, but as I said, my main intention is to find out how the idea of `formal practice' would fit in with the Buddha's teachings. Allow me to say somehting about my own reactions towards Abhidhamma since I first came in touch with it 3 years ago. I had heard like many people here that the Abhidhamma was not originally taught by the Buddha, but was written by commentators who got the ideas from their understanding of the Suttas. Nevertheless I was interested in it as I had no objection to whether the Buddha was the author or not. Probably this is because I was not as dedicated to Buddhism hence the Buddha himself at that time, since my understanding was very much of a new comer, besides I was still to some extent, interested in other religions as well. So it is because of the Abhidhamma that I am now quite a Theravada devotee and firmly believe that the Buddha's teachings is the only way to liberation. Anyway, in the beginning, because of the `structure' of Abhidhamma, it came to my mind that perhaps its proponents are resting upon its consistency and in fact could be fooling themselves. But being amongst good friends, such doubts would soon appear unfounded when faced with those aspects of the teachings, which lead to verifiable (more or less) facts. On and off such thoughts have been coming and going in variations, and if you remember, several months ago I wrote about being doubtful not so much about the teachings, but my own `reliance' and dependence on Buddhist concepts on the whole and not particularly Abhidhamma ones? I started to move around in circles outside of Buddhism to see how I would stand there. And remember I said that Sarah reminded me about the fact about `being caught in stories'? I realized that it is all about "this moment", that whatever the words we use, the important thing is that it leads to the present moment? The problem is the `thinking', seeing problems where there are none. In fact just this Saturday, while reflecting on Herman's comment: ""If you feed the mind with theory, that is what you will be regurgitating."" And arriving at the afternoon discussion before K. Sujin, Tim (a participant) was talking about how `differently' she now views experiences, referring to the Abhidhamma perspective. I asked her `how different it was from say, someone who views the world from a physicist's understanding of reality?' There was no doubt about the "content" and value of Abhidhamma as against scientific materialist views, but the concern was about one's own understanding of the Buddha's teachings and whether one is going to be forever *stuck* on the theoretical level?! Or worse, one is under the illusion that one *is* making progress. We also talked about the limitation of words with reference to the single experience of `saltiness'. How no two moments is ever the same and yet we give so much importance to the `description'. We concluded that words were unavoidable, but then what is the correct attitude towards them? I guess my answer is `not to think too much'! :-/ Don't grasp at anything while studying and contemplating. Labeling or guessing will take place, just knowing them even intellectually as just that, is good enough for now. So you see I consider about this distinction between direct experience and theory too ;-). But then what has it originated from and what it proliferated into, was it `wise consideration' or mostly `doubt'? James I don't think there is anything wrong with Abhidhamma; the problem is our own doubts and thinking this and that. Even these moments can be seen as conditioned, for example in my above example, part of what conditioned that thinking, was considering Herman's statement. This is not to say that his statement is wrong, but that because of my own lack of firm understanding and not remembering Sarah's reminder ;-), such thoughts arose. > Personally, I believe that > Buddhist meditation is part of the Noble Eightfold Path. The > Eightfold Path can roughly be categorized as: Morality, Meditation, > and Wisdom and they each condition each other. I am a strong > believer in Meditation and I am a strong believer in Morality because > I believe in kamma; Firstly you know what some of us think about the N8P, we don't think it as a step by step training nor is it necessary to categorize it as Sila, Samadhi and Panna, since we see it as a description of mental factors all arising together at path moment. As to development of Sila, Samadhi and Panna as something imperative in their own right, my own understanding is as follows. Sila is the moment of refrain from akusala via body, speech or mind. So there must be a moment which otherwise conditions akusala, and there is a `remembrance' about the danger, hence the restraint. Even this is done with varying degrees of wisdom, the more the better. In any case, just to recognize akusala *is* a level of wisdom accompanied by Saddha and Sati and as you know, concentration. I think you will agree at this point, that it means nothing to keep sila outwardly. Just following a `rule' one has decided to keep is quite meaningless, the important thing is the restraint at the moment when opportunity to otherwise indulge arises, no? So is there anyone who `keeps sila'? ;-) More importantly, at the moment of satipatthana, Sila, Samadhi and Panna is all perfected. So you see these three go together. But the lead is panna. > Rob M. states that belief or disbelief in the Abhidhamma has nothing to do > with wisdom but is more a personal preference caused by accumulations > and conditioning. I like Rob M's approach but I think it is more > than a personal preference; I flat out don't believe in the > Abhidhamma and don't believe that it is true Buddhism. I don't know what Rob has in mind, but if I were to make any distinction, I would say that the study of Abhidhamma is not for everyone and is not necessary, considering the fact that people are of different temperaments. You may be a little surprised to hear, but I am often put off when reading certain details, I know that the systematic study of Abhidhamma is *not* for me. However I do believe that an appreciation for its value is a sign of understanding the Buddha's teachings. And I apologize if this is a presumption, but I think that "you" do too. Your objection is only to certain aspects which I believe you should not dismiss, but instead keep an open mind and allow for the possibility that you will agree with it in the future.;-) Even I have some reservations, but they don't come in the way. Meanwhile if I am not sure about certain things, I can at least try to see the background from which I come. What are my own doubts based upon? > Therefore, some say that simply believing in Buddhism (as opposed to > Christianity or something else) is Right View and Right Understanding > but I don't think so. I think that is a start but I think that it > takes a lot more to have wisdom. I accept the possibility that I am > wrong about the Abhidhamma and that the others are right, but it > can't be both. Even the right and wrong, should it be based on every detail? Would we ever be able to prove everything? This should not stop you from at least trying it out no? ;-) Besides, accepting the possible validity of the Abhidhamma does not mean that it will require one to stop meditating, does it? Also we are required to test everything out for ourselves anyway. > Really, sticky issues come up when looking at meditation and morality > also. In Buddhism, things are not always cut and dry all the time. > I don't know if I have answered your question or just rambled on > pointlessly. If you ask a more specific question maybe I won't > ramble as much! ;-) I have been more than rambling, hope you didn't mind. > Metta, James Metta, Sukin. 28171 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Michael Thanks for the reply. First of all, my apologies for the slow turnaround of my previous posts. I'm afraid it's unavoidable, as I am rarely able to send out posts during the week or Saturdays, due to work and other commitments. My only chance to work on posts is on Sundays. However, I am making an exception for this post ;-)). --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Jon, Michael: Well, and what would be the original sources? There is no agreement on that either. Everyone for himself/herself has to find a way of qualifying the teachings. One should strive to acquire that discernment. Jon: There are commentaries that are generally recognised and accepted by the scholars you mention (Ven. Nyanaponika Thera, Bhikkhu Bodhi) as stating the orthodox Therevada doctrine. In the 'everyone for himself' approach, what is the point of reference in discussion between 2 individuals? If it is simply the individuals' own experience, then it will be a case of wrong view vs. wrong view. Michael: It seems quite obvious to me. The concept of a person arises from a deluded mind. One can divide the person into a multitude of parts. Like body parts, elements, dhammas, etc. And the divison and subdivision can go on indefinitely. There is no final substratum that one can argue really exists. Dhammas only exist because of conditionality therefore one can say that they arise from a collection of conditions. And a person will arise from another set or collection of conditions. Jon: The teaching as found in the suttas is not about 'dividing' persons/objects into parts. The whole point of the teachings is that there is no person/object in the first place, it is all an illusion. To my understanding, 'dhammas' in the context being discussed here are the underlying realities arising in this world which, because of ignorance and wrong view, are taken for person/object etc. Michael: Whoever sees dependent origination sees the dhamma ... That's all I have to say Jon: Yes, I certainly agree with the central importance of dependant origination in the teachings. But as I understand it, 'the dhamma' in the context of your comment (meaning 'the teaching' or more specifically 'the four noble truths'), and 'dhammas' in the context of dhammas as a collection of conditions; dhammas and the conventional notion of a person (realities of different kinds) are different in meaning. Individual dhammas are also of central importance to the teachings. They are found referred to throughout the suttas in terms of the 5 khandhas, the sense-bases, the elements, etc. Indeed, individual dhammas are referred to in each limb of the dependant origination. I am not aware of any reference in the suttas, direct or indirect, to 'dhammas' as being a 'collection of conditions'. Michael: It's clear enough to me. A leave turns yellow in Fall and this is a distinctive characteristic of leaves in the Fall. Does it mean the leaves own that characteristic, it is intrinsic to them? Of course not. Could the leaves have another characteristic? Yes, if conditions would be different. The same logic applies to any phenomena. Jon: I would still be interested to hear a specific example of the practical application of this logic. Or are you saying that seeing and visible object are in fact the same dhamma but observed under different conditions? Michael: Yeah. The turnaround has been really slow. I will have to stop this thread here though because I will be unavailable in the next days. So maybe later we can catch up. Jon: No hurry. I'm enjoying our discussion ;-)). Jon 28172 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Medicine Dear Htoo, As I mentioned, I appreciate your encouragement and keen confidence in the Tipitaka, esp. the Abhidhamma, very much too. --- htootintnaing wrote: > Sitting means nothing. It is Pannatta. Standing means nothing. It is > Pannatta. Walking means nothing. It is just Pannatta. Lying means > nothing. It is just Pannatta. ..... I liked this comment very much because I think it’s very important to differentiate between pannatti (concepts) and paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities). As we discussed on the ayatana (sense fields) thread a long time ago, only the latter can be objects of satipatthana. Pannatti can only ever be conceptualized or thought about. They can be the object of panna (understanding), but not of panna in satipatthana. So, I don’t think that focussing or concentrating on body movements , breath or any concepts can lead to more detachment from the idea of self or understanding of paramattha dhammas. I also think the desire for results is so strong for most of us and that’s why we look for a method or a way of developing concentration and so on. At these moments of concentrating or wishing to follow a method, the attachment can so easily move us away from awareness being aware of the characteristic arising right now. This is where, I believe, our knowledge of Abhidhamma is so essential. From the comy to the Satipatthana sutta: “Mental objects should be contemplated upon by way of own characteristic [salakkha.na] of impression and the like [phusanaadi]; by way of general characteristic [saama~n~na lakkha.na] of impermanence and the like [aniccataadi]; by way of phenomenon-emptiness [ su~n~nata dhamma], namely, by way of the void-nature called soullessness [anattataa sa’nkhaata su~n~nataa sabhaavassa] toexplain which clearly, the instruction of the portion dealing with the void in the Abhidhamma proceeded by means of the statement beginning with ‘At that time indeed there are phenomena, there are aggregates [ya.m vibhaavetu.m abhidhamme tasmi.m kha pana samaya dhammaa honti khandhaa hontit aadinaa su~n~nataavaara desanaa pavattaa], without any mention of a soul.....” **** (For other friends with misgivings about the suse of sabhaava in the commentaries, here we have ‘sunnata sabhava’, referrring clearly to the nature or characteristic of anatta.) In other words, as I understand, sati sampajaana refers to the clear comprehension of characteristics of present paramattha dhammas, i.e present namas and rupas and not to an idea that ‘I will follow or concentrate on movements’ or a special practice such as slowing down these movements which leads to an unnatural way of living, as I see it. .... H:> Still, awareness to these 4 positions works to overcome running away > from meditational object. > > No one can sit since born till death. Even though these are > conceptual matter, real meditators know that these are concepts, > those are realities and so on. .... I think that for most of us, whether ‘real meditators’ or not, there is very little understanding of the distinction between concepts and realities at this very moment. If we refer to awareness of ‘these 4 positions’, it’s OK as we use awareness conventionally, but this is not the meaning of satipatthana as you clarify later. ..... H:> But Pannatta is not a reality. Even though it is not a reality, it > can still serve as object. .... It can serve as an object, but only of thinking or of other wholesome states such as dana, metta or samatha. So we need to be clear of the purpose of the Teachings: i.e to really understand paramattha dhammas in order to detach from the idea of self and eradicate kilesa. I liked all your comments about the momentary nature of cittas and their ‘digital’ nature. However, when you write:..... ..... H: > The learned meditator well know that what is real and what is unreal. .... I think this knowledge can only be developed by beginning to understand present dhammas, not by wishing to follow a method. .... H: > However, as a method, he has to know all moments and all movements. > At the end of a section whether sitting or lying or standing which > are still position, the meditator knows that a mind that wishes a > change in position arises. He knows that. > > '..Want to stand..want to move..stretching legs ( Vayo Photthabba > arise )..putting foot on the floor ( Tejo or Pathavi or Vayo > Photthabba depending on what meditator perceives arises )..' .... It seems in what you describe here that there is a special kind of thinking or idea of what the object of awareness should be. As I understand the teachings, we’re encouraged to understand whatever reality arises now without any idea of method or special movement or any kind of selection. Otherwise there is always an idea of self trying to have more sati, trying to follow a method and so on. .... H: > I hope this is clear enough. If still in doubt further discussion > will be needed. .... We agree on much of what you’ve said and I’ve only quoted part of your post. I know I’ve also said many things you may not agree with and I’d be very happy tohear your further comments, Htoo. It’s a pleasure to discuss with you and to draw on our mutual respect for the entire Tipitaka and ancient commentaries. .... H: > Thank you very much for your good will, encouragement and your talent > in management of web site. I am looking forward to hearing from you > regarding Mahasatipatthana. .... It’s kind of you to say this again. I assure you it’s all very smooth sailing for me these days, thanks to all the members and others who work behind the scenes like Jon and Kom. I do hope my comments are not seen as disrespectful to your kind sharings in anyway, Htoo. I look forward to many more and greatly appreciate your metta and kind wishes. Looking forward to further discussion with you on Mahasatipatthana. Metta, Sarah Also from the Satipatthana Sutta comy: "Since there is nothing called spiritual development [bhavana] without laying hold on something whatsoever in material form, feeling, consciousness and mental objects [kaya vedana citta dhammesu kiñci dhammam anamasitva] they (Santati and Patacara) too overcame sorrow and lamentation just by this Way of Mindfulness. For the hearers [savaka], namely, the disciples of the Buddha, there is no attainment of the Noble Path [Ariya Magga] possible, except by practicing the subject of meditation [kammatthana] of the Four Truths [Catu Sacca]. Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of wisdom [pañña bhavana]. Just the contemplation of material form (corporeality), of feeling, consciousness or mental objects, constitutes the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness." ================================================= 28173 From: ashkenn2k Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:11am Subject: Re: Question on Brahma Viharas Hi Christine Just like Sukin mention in his earlier mail, Abdhidhamma could change the way we look at things. To the three Bs, that is nothing we can do about it even if we pray a million times a day, it is practically useless (IMO). Just like Buddha has tried to stop a war for three times, yet the war still continue. Even him also can do nothing about it. Just like what Robert describe when he was initially being irritated to pay for something, then he realise it is just concepts, the anger ceased. When one see the samasara as conditions, what is unjustify or envy are just aksuala or kusala conditions that are maturing. That is no need to lament why like this why like that bc this only add more aversion to oneself. Not beneficial to ones cultivation. Notwithstanding, I am more concern about the immediate environment and helping them. IMO, this is how I think compassion should be shown. For those we can do nothing about it, we leave it to conditions. To me one of the way to help those affected by the three Bs is to donate money to the charity organisation (be it Christian mission or not) that help relieve or reduce their suffering. kind regards Ken O 28174 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:17am Subject: Re: The development of Wisdom Dear Kom, What you have said makes some sense to me; you have opened up more possibilities re craftiness and blind faith. I was thinking - well I don't know what I was thinking!!!! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Hi Azita, > > I am very happy to hear from you, after having met you and many interesting > discussions in Thailand. ............ > The question you ask is way over my head, (and since I currently have no > access to the commentaries) so perhaps others will respond... It's pretty > interesting though, there is no panna without sadha, so what does this text > mean about having panna without sadha? It cannot be true panna. This is part of where my concern lies - it did not come from a text but a tape, one from the Foundation in Bkk. Can't remember xactly what - but it was about 'balancing' panna and saddha. When I read dsg posts, I assume a lot of people have done a lot a reading, as there are some posts way over my head too, Kom. I sometimes feel that I have a degree of 'blind faith'. I've read very little of the Tipitika; but have listened to TA. Sujin and before her, Ven. Dhammadharo. Of course, there is no way of really knowing unless there is right understanding of the present moment - and even in the writing of this, I'm thinking "but I don't know this for sure, I'm just saying it cos I believe it!!!!" I sound like a muddled-headed wombat [Aussie, for being confused] As I work my way thro this post, its beginning to sound like a good dose of Doubt. So enuff of this part of your reply,Kom. The rest on craftiness and Lobha/Saddha is too much for me to deal with at this time, and thank you for your help. May we all be well and happy, Azita I can tell > you my thoughts... > > Panna without Sadha is the ability to think through things (even not a true > panna). Some Bikkhu with this characteristic may be prone to think of ways > to get around the Patikmokkha, resulting in such craftiness. You know one > of the Patikmokkha is not to have sexual intercourse, but do you know that > the Buddha issued many additional minor rules in regard to the major rule, > based on the Bikkhus getting around the wording of the rule. > > A person with sadha, but without panna, cannot know the truth for himself, > and must rely on other always. This obviously doesn't work out too well > when the people one is associated with are not all ariyans: one is bound to > veer of in the wrong path according to their current association. > > An example of being crafty in daily life is, you are about to get to an > appointment, you know you should be on time and being late is no good, but > yet, because of all other excuses you may have, you go late anyway. Don't > you think this is a bit crafty? You manage to find some justifications for > something no good. Being crafty is not being straight, not being true to > the dhamma (because there is no panna at such moments). Craftiness leads > you to mistake akusala as kusala, kusala as akusala, and many other mistaken > ideas. Truths are impossible to see when there is such craftiness. I think > that's why TA Sujin keeps reminding us to be straight. Ah, but how do you > become stright, and know that you are straight? Definitely, not without > panna, and not with such craftiness. > > Lobha is easily mistakenly as saddha. Vedana associated with lobha and > kusala states are the same kinds of vedana (either pleasant or neutral). > Lobha can also come with piti, so does saddha. Do you see how easy it is to > mistake lobha as saddha, even if there may be sadha before that lobha? An > example of this is, when you give, you feel sadha, piti, and somanassa, but > immediately afterward, there is lobha to the kusala mental states, but all > the meanwhile, you think they are all saddha. Do you know that some people > give because they feel good? Such lobha are subtle comparing to the gross > lobha, but lobha nonetheless, and with that, final liberation is just > impossible. > > Seasonal Greetings for Everybody! > > Metta, > > kom > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: gazita2002 [mailto:gazita2002@y...] > > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 3:43 PM > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [dsg] Re: The development of Wisdom > > > > > > Dear Kom, > > > > Hello, hope you are well. This morning, I got onto dsg. for a > > quick read before I go to yoga, looking for a little inspiration and > > here it is. I like to have these reminders every day, they are so > > helpful. Pariyatti must come before there is any development of > > right understanding, otherwise in ignorance, how could we possibly > > know what are paramatta dhammas. > > > > A good time for my question. I have been thinking about Panna > > and Saddha. We are told that Panna without Saddha can lead to > > craftiness, and that too much Saddha without Panna can lead to blind > > faith. How would craftiness and blind faith appear, what are their > > characteristics? > > > > BTW, Seasons greetings to you, Kom. > > > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > > Azita. > > > > 28175 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:41am Subject: Re: Reminders [ho ho ho] Dear All, Here is a different reminder and the 'ho ho ho' will be obvious [maybe] given the time of year that we're in: The Early Teachers [cited at Vism XI,23] The pleasant drink, the pleasant food, Hard, soft, whatever it may be: Through one door it is loaded in, Through nine it trickles out again. The pleasant drink, the pleasant food, Hard, soft, whatever it may be: Man may in company enjoy, Yet, in discharging it, he hides. The pleasant drink, the pleasant food, Hard, soft, whatever it may be: Man may enjoy with full delight, Yet, in discharging, feels disgust. The pleasant drink, the pleasant food, Hard, soft, whatever it may be: The whole, after one single night, Will reach a state of loathsomeness. Verses for next year's Xmas cards; graffiti on a restaurant wall; poetry to teach the kiddies; Seasons greetings, May we all be well and happy, Azita. 28176 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The development of Wisdom Hi Azita & Kom, --- gazita2002 wrote: > > What you have said makes some sense to me; you have opened up > more possibilities re craftiness and blind faith. I was thinking - > well I don't know what I was thinking!!!! .... Well I was thinking your questions were the same or similar to ones I raised in Bangkok, probably before you arrived and maybe it was this you listened to on tape. Jack and Oi were present and Oi made some good contributions too, Kom. Perhaps you could encourage her to add more too;-) ..... Kom:> > The question you ask is way over my head, (and since I currently > have no > > access to the commentaries) so perhaps others will respond... It's > pretty > > interesting though, there is no panna without sadha, so what does > this text > > mean about having panna without sadha? It cannot be true panna. .... I suggested the same, but K.Sujin stressed it was. In case you missed it (it would have been posted when you were both still travelling I think), I’d be glad if you’d take a look at this post I wrote on return and add any further comments: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m22457.html Metta, Sarah ===== 28177 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) - and other questions Hi Ken O (& RobertK), --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Robert > > It is true that thinking will not help :). It is my inquisitive > nature that at times I like to go to the core of a question. Maybe > I just cannot logically understand what is the difference between > conceit and wrong view. To me isn't conceit a wrong view. I just > dont understand what is the subtle difference between them as said in > the Manual, could you help me to find the commentaries comment on > this. ..... I like all your careful considerations and questions. I liked RobK’s comment that ‘thinking about conceit or wrong view may not show us the difference but when the characteristic of conceit is present we can see that it is different from that of wrong view.’ It’s true, only panna will know the difference, but it does help to hear and consider examples and details too as you are doing. This can be a condition for panna to know the characteristics. You might like to see if any of these messages from U.P. help with references. ***** Conceit vs wrong view of self (sakkaya-sitthi) 11868, 20141, 22649, 22765, 25213 ***** I like to hear all your wise reflections a lot. And as you prepare for Bhavanga Town, it may only be thinking, but it’s a lot more useful than counting sheep if you ask me;-) In appreciation for all your sharp comments. I loved the quote from the comy to the Ab.Sangaha you gave too. You’re becoming quite a dinosaur yourself;-) Metta, Sarah p.s If Robert’s comments and these posts still leave qus, let us know and we’ll try to add more. It’s useful for all of us. Actually, we had quite a lot of discussion on these topics in Bkk and Burma. Let me know off-list if you’d like a set of tapes (MP3 or cassettes) ============================================================== 28178 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 6:18am Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not Hi Sukin, I am glad that you enjoyed my post. You have many good ideas but to me they don't become immediately apparent. Your writing style is more `stream of consciousness', a style I greatly enjoy in writers like Kerouac and Ginsberg, but takes a lot of effort to decipher. Maybe I don't take the effort I should sometimes because there are so many posts to read in this group! ;-) I am going to take snips of what you wrote, sometimes out of order, to organize a response that works more logically/systematically for me. I hope you don't mind because I am not going to quote everything (or the mods- `the gods' ;-))- would not be pleased). If you feel that I have taken anything out of context, please don't hesitate to clarify for me. Get comfortable because this is going to be one extremely long post! (I am on Christmas vacation so I have the time ;-)). Sukin: There was no doubt about the "content" and value of Abhidhamma as against scientific materialist views, but the concern was about one's own understanding of the Buddha's teachings and whether one is going to be forever *stuck* on the theoretical level?! Or worse, one is under the illusion that one *is* making progress. James: Excellent! I say that these are good doubts. Stick with them and ponder them more. I had these same doubts when I first read Nina's writings about the Abhidhamma and then became even more convinced of their validity as my participation in this group continued. I have quit a couple of times, because I obviously don't belong, but I keep getting called back. Go figure?? ;-) (I guess: What fun is discussion when everyone agrees with each other? ;-) Sukin: I guess my answer is `not to think too much'! :-/ Don't grasp at anything while studying and contemplating. Labeling or guessing will take place, just knowing them even intellectually as just that, is good enough for now. James: Hmm…it doesn't sound like you are too confident in this answer. Does this really satisfy you? Personally, it sounds like you are saying that you need to think and not think at the same time, to have the concepts and labels in your mind but to somehow not have them. How are you supposed to accomplish this? Personally, I don't believe this is possible. Sukin: However I do believe that an appreciation for its value is a sign of understanding the Buddha's teachings. And I apologize if this is a presumption, but I think that "you" do too. Your objection is only to certain aspects which I believe you should not dismiss, but instead keep an open mind and allow for the possibility that you will agree with it in the future.;-) James: This is a little presumptuous, but that is okay. I have varying degrees of acceptance and non-acceptance of different aspects of the Abhidhamma which I am not going to enumerate now or it would put you to sleep! ;-). However, you way you state it you seem to assume that I am predominately in favor of the Abhidhamma but there are small aspects I don't agree with and, given time and enough wisdom, I may agree with them. First, that isn't correct, I officially reject the entire Abhidhamma on principal (if any of it is wrong, then the whole thing is wrong: which is the proper standard of judging the dhamma). Second, I have a question for you: Do you have an open mind and entertain the possibility that I am correct and that the Abhidhamma is a false teaching? Do you think that maybe sometime in the future you will learn the error of your thinking and turn away from the Abhidhamma? Would that even be possible or would your mind be too far indoctrinated with its concepts and labels? (Sorry for the melodrama! LOL! "Luke, turn away from the dark side of the Force." Hehehe..) Sukin: Allow me to say somehting about my own reactions towards Abhidhamma since I first came in touch with it 3 years ago. James: Okay, since we are swapping stories, allow me to share mine. I first came into contact with the Abhidhamma about eight years ago. My meditation teacher, Ajahn Somporn from Thailand, gave me instructions to `know nama and rupa' while I was meditating. At first I had no idea what he was talking about because I had never heard of these terms. He explained to me each of them, which I understood to be mental and physical phenomena. I didn't know at the time that this came from the Abhidhamma, I thought it was a kind of meditation technique. Ajahn Somporn's English wasn't so great. I attempted to do what he said and found myself very frustrated in the process. It seemed like I was trying to put a new head on top of the one I already have! All physical phenomena are only known through the mind, labeling is only known through the mind, and thoughts are only known through the mind. On a superficial level there was nama and rupa, but on a deeper level it was all nama. There was nothing that could be known separate from nama. I explained this to my teacher and told him that I thought I should just go back to my regular Buddhist meditation. He agreed. I got the impression that he didn't do this type of meditation either but he felt obligated to teach it to me. Now I know why. The Abhidhamma does have some powerful influence in Thailand. I joined this group fully thinking that the Abhidhamma had been taught by the Buddha and hadn't heard otherwise. I gave it a fair shot, read all the material I wanted to read, discussed it in this group, and reached the conclusion that the Abhidhamma wasn't taught by the Buddha and is a perversion of his teachings by intermixing with Vedic beliefs. The Abhidhamma attempts to explain `The World' in a way that the Buddha did not. Allow me to quote part of one of my favorite suttas that I have quoted before in this group (and include the notes this time) SN, Devaputtasamyutta, 26. Rohitassa "…It is, friend, in just this fathom-long carcass endowed with perception and mind that I make known the world, the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, and the way leading to the cessation of the world…. (Note 182: …This pithy utterance of the Buddha, which may well be the most profound proposition in the history of human thought, is elucidated at 35:116 by the Venerable Ananda, who explains that in the Noble One's Discipline "the world" is "that in the world by which one is a perceiver and conceiver of the world," i.e. the six sense bases. From Ananda's explanation we can draw out the following implications: The world with which the Buddha's teaching is principally concerned is "the world of experience," and even the objective world is of interest only to the extent that it serves as the necessary external condition for experience. The world is identified with the six sense bases because the latter are the necessary internal condition for experience and thus for the presence of the world. As long as the six sense basis persist, a world will always be spread out before us as the objective range of perception and cognition. Thus one cannot reach the end of the world by traveling, for wherever one goes one inevitably brings along the six sense bases, which necessarily disclose a world extended on all sides. Nevertheless, by reversing the direction of the search it is possible to reach the end of the world. For if the world ultimately stems from the six sense bases, then by bringing an end to the sense bases it is possible to arrive at the end of the world…" Now, According to the Abhidhamma, nama and rupa are separate from each other and exist independently, with their own characteristics and are ultimate. I completely disagree and believe that this thinking is contrary to what the Buddha taught. I am not interested in descriptions of any world separate from the world of human experience. Sukin: Firstly you know what some of us think about the N8P, we don't think it as a step by step training nor is it necessary to categorize it as Sila, Samadhi and Panna, since we see it as a description of mental factors all arising together at path moment. James: No, I did not know that. Those posts that are veiled with too many advanced Pali words, un-translated, I just skip. This is a pretty weird idea. What is a `path moment'? Where did this idea come from? The Buddha didn't teach this. You think factors like "Right Speech" and "Right Livelihood" are simply mental factors? That isn't true. Right speech is speaking rightly, with one's mouth…or pen. Understand? Right Livelihood is working rightly, with one's body, in order to gain sustenance. These are pretty common sense things. It seems that you are creating some kind of lofty, esoteric idea out of the Eightfold Path which isn't necessary. It is quite fine the way it is. I don't know what a `path moment' is but it isn't the way the Buddha categorized the Eightfold Path. He described the Eightfold Path as a vehicle. For support I turn again to SN, Devatasamyutta (Sorry, I am studying it at this time; I'm sure there are other examples) 46. Nymphs: …"'The straight way' that path is called, And `fearless' is its destination. The chariot is called `unrattling' Fitted with wheels of wholesome states. The sense of shame is its leaning board, Mindfulness its upholstery; I call the Dhamma the charioteer With right view running out in front. One who has such a vehicle- Whether a woman or a man- Has, by means of this vehicle, Drawn close to Nibbana. (Note 102: Having completed the discourse (the verse), the Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths, and at the end of that discourse the deva was established in the fruit of stream-entry; the other beings present attained the fruits that accorded with their own supporting conditions.)" No the Eightfold Path is not like steps to follow; I never said that. But I do believe that all of the factors of the path are different and don't necessarily all come together at the same time or in the same way. Of course they must all come together, in the proper way, for the vehicle to carry a person. I believe it is also important to categorize the different parts of the Noble Eightfold Path or the Buddha wouldn't have. We have to accept some authority here; if not the Lord Buddha then who? Perhaps if you explained `path moment' a little more to me I would understand where you are coming from. Sukin: This should not stop you from at least trying it out no? ;-) Besides, accepting the possible validity of the Abhidhamma does not mean that it will require one to stop meditating, does it? James: How does one `try out' the Abhidhamma? I don't understand your meaning. To me that would mean that I would need to stop meditating and attempt to have `path moments' during everyday experience by labeling nama and rupa when I notice them. Right? I have already attempted to incorporate the Abhidhamma into meditation and I found it impossible. What would you suggest I do? I am willing to try anything if I understand what you mean. It doesn't seem to me that those who follow the Abhidhamma have any kind of practice whatsoever except studying the dhamma and discussing it. To me, that's more like a book club than the dhamma-sangha. Sukin: I have been more than rambling, hope you didn't mind. James: Nope, hope you don't mind my changing things around a bit. Metta, Sukin. Metta, James 28179 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:22am Subject: How To Get Through The Samsara ( 10 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The Dhamma practitioner is practising Kayanupassana Satipatthana. Kaya means body. Anu means in detail. Passa means look, view. Sati means mindfulness. Patthana means putting. So Kayanupassana Satipatthana is '' Putting of the mind along with mindfulness on every detail that arises at body at the very present moment. This is also known as Vipassana. Vi means special, differently, detailing, analytically, Passa means look, view. The Dhamma practitioner is meditating on his body. He had been meditating in sitting position. He knew the whole body of his breath. He knew the breath as long when long, and as short when short. He also knew when the breath paused and also knew a long pause when long and a short pause when short. When he breathed in, the whole body was well relaxed, and he breathed out tranquilizing the whole body. He was aware of all through his breath at every piece and at every moment. Even though the mind is moving around in-breath and out-breath, he was well concentrated and a good Samadhi has been set up. This is not simply one-pointedness which may be a translational word for Ekaggata Cetasika. In Vipassana, as the mind is moving around, it does not fix at an object or at a point. So, one-pointedness in Vipassana is misnomer for Ekaggata Cetasika. In Vipassana, the mind is well concentrated. In which way it is well concentrated is one-directionedness. The mind goes in a single direction. Which direction it takes is to the direction of very very present moment. This is easy to say and write but very very difficult to achieve as all Vipassana meditators know. But practice can support a lot. Most meditators do not see at the very present moment. So where are they looking at? They are looking at the past objects or they are looking at the future objects. Then their concentration is minimally disturbed and if unnoticed, major disturbances arise in connection with past thoughts and future thoughts especially when these thoughts are hindrances like sensual thoughts, hateful thoughts, spreading-repenting thoughts, undue tiredness bound lazy thoughts and suspicious thoughts and ignoring thoughts. Now the meditator is practising breathing meditation and Kayanupassana Satipatthana. As well as the breath, he also knew all his body positions or Iriyapatha. He knows while he is sitting. He knows while he is standing. He knows while he is walking. He knows while he is lying. He is fully aware of all his body positions. The body has to be in a position out of four namely sitting, standing, walking, and lying. Walking is moving while sitting, standing, and lying are stationary. Even when he is in one of three stationary positions, he is also fully aware of all his body movement and mind movement. Now as he has been sitting for an hour, he is going to change his position into standing and then walking. In the next hour, the meditator is going to practise walking meditation with full awareness. May you all practise Vipassana to attain beneficial effects With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing JourneyToNibbana JourneyToNibbana@g... htootintnaing@y... 28180 From: Benjamin Jerome Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] tanha and intention Jon - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 2:29 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] tanha and intention > To my understanding, what is important is the development of > awareness of any presently occurring dhamma, so that gradually > dhammas can be seen more as they truly are Could you please describe how to develop awareness of presently occurring dhammas? This sounds like mindfulness to me. Does this mean to simply pay attention to sounds, sights, smells, tastes, touches, and thoughts in the here and now? Ben 28181 From: philofillet Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 6:18am Subject: Greetings from a new member Time to introduce myself properly, after popping in briefly the other day. My name is Philip. I'm a Canadian living in Japan, where my humble job as an English converstion teacher gives me fantastic opportunities to practice mindfulness and the Brahma-Viharas. I have settled this year into a fairly solid Theravada-ish practive after flirting with Buddhism for many years, and I have been experiencing tangible benefits, especially with respect to ridding myself of a lot of weeds and soggy undergrowth emerging from the Hindrances of ill- will and sensual desire. I have so far made it through this year without any of the "regrettable incidents" that popped up too often in past years, usually outbursts of anger against assholes in fast cars (I'm a cyclist and avid walker) and my beloved but sometimes taxing best friend/life partner Naomi! I'll be away through the holidays, but I look forward to learning more from you as I get my fledgling practice going. Since there doesn't seem to be much in the way of Theravada in Japan, I will be relying on books and groups like this for the time being. If anyone has information about Theravada in Japan, other than the temple in Shibuya and the meditation center in Kyoto that I already know about, I would be grateful to hear it. With Metta, Philip 28182 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:26am Subject: Vis. and Tiika 58 Hi Larry, Yes, I am ready. The footnote 24 is heavy reading, refers to Patthana, and I shall make additional remarks, more about faculty, indriya. I translated text until this footnote and the text after this I leave, it is too long. Nina. 28183 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 54, body consciousness Hi Larry, op 20-12-2003 01:23 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > When I asked if tangible data accompanies every consciousness I meant > does it accompany consciousness in the company of vedana. Does vedana > accompany every consciousness? N: Yes, vedanaa is one of the seven universals. We cannot say tangible object accompanies citta, because it is rupa, not nama. It can be object of citta, but not all the time. L:Is that vedana always bodily feeling? N: No, it is bodily feeling only when it is accompanying the vipakacitta that is body-consciousness. L:In order for there to be bodily feeling does there have to be tangible > data? I know there is sometimes mental feeling, but let's leave that > aside for now. N: Yes, it accompanies the vipakacitta that experiences tangible object. > L: Take the example of anxiety that is accompanied by unpleasant internal > tension. The unpleasantness is vedana (feeling), the tension is rupa, > and the anxiety is a mental formation (sankhara). N: You are describing here a situation, and we have to be clear what dhammas are involved. Unpleasant internal tension seems to me a mixture of namas and rupas. There is unpleasant feeling, and this, as you describe it, would be akusala, accompanying citta rooted in aversion. Anxiety is a form of dosa. Dosa can be fear, it has many shades. Tension: it can be rupa conditioned by the dosa, very likely. Some rigidity in the body. All these dhammas have characteristics which appear one at a time. When there can be direct awareness of them we do not name them, do not point to them. There can be a beginning to know that nama is not rupa. But, this is very difficult. L: Actually, I'm finding it very difficult to experience the characteristic > of mental formations in general. I can identify the feeling and the rupa > and there is often discursive thinking (a story) seemingly associated > with these but I can't find the mental formation (like, dislike, > bewilderment) itself. N: Yes, I also find it very difficult. Let us not try to find the mental formation, we won't be able to. It cannot be realized by thinking, but it helps to have a clear understanding what different dhammas are on the level of pariyatti. L: I wonder if this has something to do with mental > formations being formations. N: the term mental formations is used like a collective name for all cetasikas except feeling and sa~n~naa. Cetana, volition or kamma, forms up conditions for vipaka. This is foremost of sankharakkhandha. But as Nyanatiloka says, it stands for forming or having been formed. But you do not have to think about this name, so long as you know which cetasikas are this khandha. L: Are they like a carriage in which there is > no actual carriage itself? I am pretty sure I am bewildered but I can't > actually say, "aHA! there is bewilderment." N: You probably mean: they are devoid of self? They are only cetasikas arising because of many different conditions. Dispeller of Delusion, Formations aggregate: : When lokuttara citta arises it is different. It means dispersal. And also lokuttara panna will make an end to bewilderment. Nina. 28184 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:26am Subject: anapanasati 8 a anapanasati 8 a Perfection of Clear Vision (vijja) and Deliverance (vimutti). We read in the anapanasati sutta (transl by ven. Nyanatiloka): The same is stated about the other enlightenment factors With regard to the word seclusion (viveka), which is seclusion from defilements, we read about the meaning in the Co to the ³Root of Existence² (Mulapariyaya sutta, as tr. by Ven. Bodhi)that there are five kinds of seclusion, or abandoning: by substitution of opposite factors(tadanga pahana), by suppression (in jhana), by eradication (by the four paths), by tranquillization ( by the four fruitions) and by escape (nibbana). As regards abandoning by substitution of opposite factors (tadanga pahana), this occurs during the development of the stages of insight. The personality view is abandoned by the first stage of insight: defining nama and rupa, distinquishing their different characteristics, and by each of the higher stages there is abandoning by opposite factors. As to the words of the sutta, fading away (viraga) and cessation (nirodha), thes have the same meaning as seclusion, viveka. As to the words, ³resulting in relinquishment², as the Visuddhimagga VIII, 236) explained, this is relinquishment as giving up (of defilements) and as entering into nibbana. We read: we read that also the path is called both relinquishment as giving up and relinquishment as entering into. *** Nina 28185 From: Larry Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 0:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Nice Reference for Bhavanga Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > This may well go against Abhidhamma, but I believe that the cetasikas, > as cetasikas (and not as object), are experiential parts of mindstates. After > a given mindstate or sequence of mindstates in which the feeling was > pleasantness, we can look back and say "That was pleasant," and that implies that the > pleasantness was a (participatory) aspect of the experience. Likewise for > distractedness, worry, calm, etc. When we examine an object with a calm mind, the > calmness is part of the experience, but is not the object of the experience. > So, I do not think that the cetasikas are either unconscious or even > subconscious - they are simply not the arammana. Larry:I agree that cetasikas are participatory aspects of an experience but I would say we are never aware of them all when they arise, but with clear perception we could find them in reflection (or psycho-analysis) and see that they formed part of that experience. That mental activity of which we are unaware is what I would call "sub-conscious". I suppose we could say bhavanga is unconscious compared to regular conscious activity, but this is just a relational designation because bhavanga is technically a conscious activity. > Accumulations and inclinations (anusaya), on the other hand, are > things I'm not very clear about. However, the notion of permanent or semi-permanent > structures in the mind is worrisome to me from an anatta perspective. Perhaps > accumulations and inclinations on any occasion amount to nothing more than > the particular combination of cetasikas present in the current mindstate or in > prior mindstates. Certain groups of cetasikas tend to condition future groups > of cetasikas, and that may be all there is to accumulations and inclinations. > We are "inclined" to react in certain ways due to the cetasikas that have just > arisen or that previously arose. (Conditionality need not hold only between > immediately successive mindstates, I think, though I could be wrong on this. The > issue isn't critical.) L: I'm not clear on this either. The tricky part is the "previously arisen" bit. >In this case, it may be incorrect to think of > accumulations and inclinations as subconscious. Of course, any elements of a > mindstate, including the object, the awareness itself, and the cetasikas, may occur > with varying intensities, and any of these occurring with very low intensity could > be thought of as subconscious/subliminal. Bhavanga cittas, if they are > actualities, are most likely minimal-intensity mindstates. > > With metta, > Howard L: I agree. Additionally, one thing that occurred to me is that objects of consciousness do not themselves have objects. If a particular sound has a pleasant feeling and we examine that feeling in retrospect, it is just a feeling, connected to the sound only conceptually even though originally, pleasant feeling as accompanying cetasika had the sound as object. Sound and feeling are separate realities in either case but the sound that is the object of pleasant feeling is more likely to appear to BE pleasant feeling. Larry 28186 From: Larry Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi Sarah, Excellent sutta reference. Just what I was looking for. What is equanimity here? The perceiving consciousness itself, i.e. panna? As for the disadvantages of blindness and deafness, or other disabilities, I am sure they are challenging but certainly no reason to commit suicide or even be down in the dumps all the time. I am sure there are many reasonably happy and well adjusted disabled people. What I was fishing for is a textual reference to the idea that a disabled person can't realize nibbana. I have read this somewhere and I was wondering, why not? Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Larry, > > Apologies for this late ambush post...... > > I hope you weren't being serious when you wrote to Nina: > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > > I liked your treatment of the senses as pointing toward revulsion with > > the body. This made me wonder if it says anywhere in scripture or > > commentary that it is a disadvantage to be blind or deaf, and if so, > > why? I have many times thought it would be a great advantage to be deaf. > > Plus I like sign language. I wish I could do it. But I think I am more > > likely to loose my sight in old age. > .... > I meant to chip in at the time. I think it's very misguided to think that > there is any advantage to being blind or deaf - results of akusala kamma. > I have taught children who are both and I can assure you, life is very > difficult and there is certainly no less attachment to hearing or seeing > as a result. I remember once spending time with an elderly man on a long > boat trip to Australia. He had recently become deaf as a result of an air > compression accident on a plane (he only took boats now)and we wrote each > other notes. He told me his wife had also lost her hearing in the same > accident and unable to bear it had committed suicide. Appreciate your good > fortune whilst you still have your faculties and develop awareness of the > realities instead;-) > > I'm prompted to give this ramble now as I just remembered this sutta may > be relevant: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn152.html > > Here's an extract: > > "As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him: "Uttara, does the > brahman Parasiri teach his followers the development of the faculties?" > > "Yes, master Gotama, he does." > > "And how does he teach his followers the development of the faculties?" > > "There is the case where one does not see forms with the eye, or hear > sounds with the ear [in a trance of non-perception]. That's how the > brahman Parasiri teaches his followers the development of the faculties." > > "That being the case, Uttara, then a blind person will have developed > faculties, and a deaf person will have developed faculties, according to > the words of the brahman Parasiri. For a blind person does not see forms > with the eye, and a deaf person does not hear sounds with the ear." > > When this was said, the young brahman Uttara sat silent & abashed, his > shoulders slumped, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words. The > Blessed One -- noticing that Uttara was sitting silent & abashed, his > shoulders slumped, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words -- said to > Ven. Ananda, "Ananda, the development of the faculties that the brahman > Parasiri teaches his followers is one thing, but the unexcelled > development of the faculties in the discipline of a noble one is something > else entirely." > > "Now is the time, O Blessed One. Now is the time, O One Well-Gone, for the > Blessed One to teach the unexcelled development of the faculties in the > discipline of the noble one. Having heard the Blessed One, the monks will > remember it." > > "In that case, Ananda, listen & pay close attention. I will speak." > > "As you say, lord," Ven. Ananda responded to the Blessed One. > > The Blessed One said: "Now how, Ananda, in the discipline of a noble one > is there the unexcelled development of the faculties? There is the case > where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is > agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He > discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable > thing... this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is > compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is > exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing... > disagreeable thing... agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and > equanimity takes its stance. Just as a man with good eyes, having closed > them, might open them; or having opened them, might close them, that is > how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the > arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & disagreeable > thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a > noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with > regard to forms cognizable by the eye. > > "Furthermore, when hearing a sound with the ear, there arises in a monk > what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. > He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable > thing... this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is > compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is > exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing... > disagreeable thing... agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and > equanimity takes its stance. Just as a strong man might easily snap his > fingers, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it > refers to, the arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & > disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the > discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of > the faculties with regard to sounds cognizable by the ear." > ***** > Metta, > > Sarah > ==== 28187 From: Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Nice Reference for Bhavanga Hi, Larry - In a message dated 12/22/03 4:04:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > L: I agree. Additionally, one thing that occurred to me is that > objects of consciousness do not themselves have objects. If a > particular sound has a pleasant feeling and we examine that feeling > in retrospect, it is just a feeling, connected to the sound only > conceptually even though originally, pleasant feeling as accompanying > cetasika had the sound as object. Sound and feeling are separate > realities in either case but the sound that is the object of pleasant > feeling is more likely to appear to BE pleasant feeling. > > =========================== Yes. And this raises an interesting related matter: Citta, A, has an object. When a citta, B, has a (fresh memory of) the past citta, A, as B's object, what exactly is included in that object? Does it include A's object and its cetasikas? If not, then there is no distinguishing among cittas!! I suspect that we are never directly aware (as an object) of the vi~n~nana aspect of a mindstate in isolation. I suspect that with regard to this there is only the awareness of a mind-created facsimile (a memory) of the *entire* mindstate, a facsimile that encompasses both the vi~n~nana, the arammana, and the cetasikas, so that by subsequent examination of that construct we can indirectly retrieve various aspects of the past event. We can, by examination, recall *that* we were aware of hardness, *that* it was unpleasant, *that* there was aversion, etc. In addition, the awareness of that memory can lead to a reoccurrence of some of the cetasikas that were part of that remembered mindstate, giving a kind of re-living of that state. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28188 From: Eddie Lou Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How To Get Through The Samsara ( 10 ) Hello, Htoo Naing, I am not sure if I miss the #09 for this Great series you are unravelling for us all. If I did, can you do me a favor, can you please repost it ? Thanks, You know, I also came from Myanmar. Eddie Lou --- Htoo Naing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > The Dhamma practitioner is practising Kayanupassana ............ > May you all practise Vipassana to attain beneficial > effects > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 28189 From: Larry Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 54, body consciousness Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > op 20-12-2003 01:23 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > > When I asked if tangible data accompanies every consciousness I meant > > does it accompany consciousness in the company of vedana. Does vedana > > accompany every consciousness? > N: Yes, vedanaa is one of the seven universals. We cannot say tangible > object accompanies citta, because it is rupa, not nama. It can be object of > citta, but not all the time. > L:Is that vedana always bodily feeling? > N: No, it is bodily feeling only when it is accompanying the vipakacitta > that is body-consciousness. ------------- Larry: What about anxiety? I think in the Vedana Samyutta there are indications that feeling is always bodily feeling and sometimes _also_ mental feeling. If there is no mental feeling with insight then insight must arise with bodily feeling. Correct? -------------- > L:In order for there to be bodily feeling does there have to be tangible > > data? I know there is sometimes mental feeling, but let's leave that > > aside for now. > N: Yes, it accompanies the vipakacitta that experiences tangible object. > > > L: Take the example of anxiety that is accompanied by unpleasant internal > > tension. The unpleasantness is vedana (feeling), the tension is rupa, > > and the anxiety is a mental formation (sankhara). > N: You are describing here a situation, and we have to be clear what dhammas > are involved. Unpleasant internal tension seems to me a mixture of namas and > rupas. > There is unpleasant feeling, and this, as you describe it, would be akusala, > accompanying citta rooted in aversion. Anxiety is a form of dosa. Dosa can > be fear, it has many shades. Tension: it can be rupa conditioned by the > dosa, very likely. Some rigidity in the body. > All these dhammas have characteristics which appear one at a time. When > there can be direct awareness of them we do not name them, do not point to > them. There can be a beginning to know that nama is not rupa. But, this is > very difficult. > L: Actually, I'm finding it very difficult to experience the characteristic > > of mental formations in general. I can identify the feeling and the rupa > > and there is often discursive thinking (a story) seemingly associated > > with these but I can't find the mental formation (like, dislike, > > bewilderment) itself. > N: Yes, I also find it very difficult. Let us not try to find the mental > formation, we won't be able to. It cannot be realized by thinking, but it > helps to have a clear understanding what different dhammas are on the level > of pariyatti. -------------------- Larry: I disagree. Let's try to find mental formations. If there is something there, we can find it by looking. I think the whole nama category is very subtle. The more clearly we can see how subtle and ungraspable nama is, the less of a "problem" it is. -------------------- > L: I wonder if this has something to do with mental > > formations being formations. > N: the term mental formations is used like a collective name for all > cetasikas except feeling and sa~n~naa. Cetana, volition or kamma, forms up > conditions for vipaka. This is foremost of sankharakkhandha. But as > Nyanatiloka says, it stands for forming or having been formed. > But you do not have to think about this name, so long as you know which > cetasikas are this khandha. > L: Are they like a carriage in which there is > > no actual carriage itself? I am pretty sure I am bewildered but I can't > > actually say, "aHA! there is bewilderment." > N: You probably mean: they are devoid of self? They are only cetasikas > arising because of many different conditions. -------------------------- Larry: No, I mean I can't find the cetasika at all. Just tangible data and some words. I'm not even real sure about feeling. On the other hand, I am obviously feeling and reacting like crazy. -------------------------- > Dispeller of Delusion, Formations aggregate: the principal formationat the lower end...volition is principal because of > its obviousness in the sense of accumulating...> > : When lokuttara citta arises it is different. It means > dispersal. And also lokuttara panna will make an end to bewilderment. > Nina. Larry 28190 From: Larry Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Nice Reference for Bhavanga Hi Howard, I agree. Maybe this facsimile is an abbreviation like a symbol that sanna constructs as sign (nimitta). Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry - > Yes. And this raises an interesting related matter: Citta, A, has an > object. When a citta, B, has a (fresh memory of) the past citta, A, as B's > object, what exactly is included in that object? Does it include A's object and > its cetasikas? If not, then there is no distinguishing among cittas!! > I suspect that we are never directly aware (as an object) of the > vi~n~nana aspect of a mindstate in isolation. I suspect that with regard to this > there is only the awareness of a mind-created facsimile (a memory) of the > *entire* mindstate, a facsimile that encompasses both the vi~n~nana, the arammana, > and the cetasikas, so that by subsequent examination of that construct we can > indirectly retrieve various aspects of the past event. We can, by examination, > recall *that* we were aware of hardness, *that* it was unpleasant, *that* > there was aversion, etc. In addition, the awareness of that memory can lead to a > reoccurrence of some of the cetasikas that were part of that remembered > mindstate, giving a kind of re-living of that state. > > With metta, > Howard 28191 From: Eddie Lou Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] moha Hi, Dan, I do not know a lot in term of terminology, but I will try to be more down to earth, Moha is Ignorance, Not seeing things in true sense or light. We are very limited in real abilities to see things as they really are. So many illusions around. We even see moments of joy/happiness/ectasies as 'REAL' happiness, when it is most likely just the opposite. Q. What is the impact ? A. Heavy impact, in fact this may be the True Essence of Buddhism as presenter of True Real Model of ALL Phenomena. we are going round in Infinite circles of 'Endless' rebirths with the definite accompanying Dukkha (sufferings). The only way out of this is attainment of Nibbana (aka Nirvana), where all the Dukkha cease. This is possible thru Wisdom (not just Knowledge) gained mostly thru practice of Correct Meditation. Metta, Eddie Lou --- "Dan D." wrote: > I read in Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" that > moha is delusion, > > > what its impact is, etc... > > > > Dan > > > > > > > > > 28192 From: hshsing Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:43pm Subject: Buddists' belief I read a message, a question "Does a buddist pray?". But I can not find any reply. Perhaps I am wrong. I think a buddist believe what Buddha said. Did Buddha say anything about gods or God? Maybe no. Therefore, some buddist believe in gods or God, and some do not believe in gods or God. Am I correct? hshsing@y... 28193 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How To Get Through The Samsara ( 10 ) Hi Eddie, Always good to see you around. --- Eddie Lou wrote: > I am not sure if I miss the #09 for this Great series > you are unravelling for us all. If I did, can you do > me a favor, can you please repost it ? ..... Pls click on this link to find #09. If you also click on ‘other posts by author’, you’ll be able to find all Htoo’s series anytime: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m23755.html ..... > You know, I also came from Myanmar. ..... I hope you read some of our posts after our visit to your great country. Whereabouts in Myanmar do you come from and how long since you lived there? Do you live in the States now? Whereabouts? (Apologies if you’ve told us and I’ve forgotten). Suan also comes from Myanmar too of course. Metta, Sarah ====== 28194 From: Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:34am Subject: Eye Door, Ear Door, and Rupas Galore Hi, all - The sense door descriptions given in the Dhammasangani sound to me like the descriptions of pa~n~natti, and not paramattha dhammas. There is talk of the sensitive material or sensitive substance of the eye organ and of the ear organ. In the latter case, it is located inside the ear canal near the hair follicles. This sounds like standard, conventional descriptions of static structures or sensitive physical substances. If one were to define the eye sense as the capacity for seeing, and to count that capacity asa rupa, well, okay. But that is not what is said! This is one more area of Abhidhamma that I find quite unsatisfactory. The Buddha, even when discussing the deepest of concepts, paticcasamupada for example, is incredibly clear in the suttas. But if one reads what is said in the Dhammasangani about the sense doors, for example, it is as if it were written by no one even remotely related to the Buddha. There is no clarity at all on this topic. Why is that so? The coverage of rupas in the Abhidhamma is, in my opinion, that absolutely worst of the material. It is primitive, unclear, and most disappointing. (I would be willing to bet that those sections were done by people quite different from those who did the rest of the Abhidhamma.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28195 From: Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Nice Reference for Bhavanga Hi, Larry - In a message dated 12/22/03 5:50:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I agree. Maybe this facsimile is an abbreviation like a symbol that > sanna constructs as sign (nimitta). > > Larry > > ======================== Yes, I follow you! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28196 From: Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:57pm Subject: Vism.XIV 58 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 58. 10. The feminity faculty has the female sex as its characteristic. Its function is to show that 'this is a female'. It is manifested as the reason for the mark, sign, work, and ways of the female (cf. Dhs. 633). 11. The masculinity faculty has the male sex as its characteristic. Its function is to show that 'this is a male'. It is manifested as the reason for the mark, sign, work, and ways of the male (cf. Dhs. 634). Both these last are coexstensive with the whole body, as body sensitivity is. But it does not follow that they have to be called either 'located in the space where body-sensitivity is located' or 'located in the space where that is not located'. Like the natures of visible data, etc., these are not confoundable one with the other.24 ------------------------- note 24: P.T.S. text reads "a~n~nama~n~na.m sa.nkaro natthi". Harvard text omits "sa.nkaro natthi". The word "sa.nkara" in the sense of 'confounding' or error is not in P.T.S. Dict.; see Vis. concluding verses. P.T.S. ed., p. 711. 'Though these things, that is to say, the "mark ... of the female", etc., arise each due to its own condition consisting in kamma, etc., they mostly only do so as modes in a continuity accompanied by the feminity faculty. And so "it is manifested as the reason for the mark", etc., is said making the feminity faculty their cause. 'As regards the "mark of the female", etc., too, its "facultiness" is stated as predominance, in other words, as a state of cause, because the conditions for the modal matter (aakaara-ruupa) consisting of the mark of the female, etc., in a continuity accompanied by faculties do not arise otherwise, and because these kinds of materiality are a condition for apprehending the female. But because the feminity faculty does not generate even the material instances in its own group or maintain or consolidate them, and because it does not so act for the material instances of other groups, it is therefore not called in the text faculty, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, as the life faculty is for the material instances of its group, and as nutriment is for the material instances in succeeding groups. And it is because the mark, etc., are dependent on other conditions that wherever they have predominance its shape is encountered, even in dead and sculptured matter that resembles it. And so too with the masculinity faculty. 'And since these two do not occur together in a single continuity, because of the words "Does the masculinity faculty arise in one in whom the feminity faculty arises? -- No" (Yamaka), etc., therefore even in a hermaphrodite there is only one of them at a given moment (see also DhsA. 323)' (Pm.448). 28197 From: Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 0:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58 Hi, Larry and all - In a message dated 12/22/03 8:02:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 58. 10. The feminity faculty has the female sex as its characteristic. > Its function is to show that 'this is a female'. It is manifested as the > reason for the mark, sign, work, and ways of the female (cf. Dhs. 633). > > 11. The masculinity faculty has the male sex as its characteristic. > Its function is to show that 'this is a male'. It is manifested as the > reason for the mark, sign, work, and ways of the male (cf. Dhs. 634). > > Both these last are coexstensive with the whole body, as body > sensitivity is. But it does not follow that they have to be called > either 'located in the space where body-sensitivity is located' or > 'located in the space where that is not located'. Like the natures of > visible data, etc., these are not confoundable one with the other.24 > ------------------------- > > note 24: P.T.S. text reads "a~n~nama~n~na.m sa.nkaro natthi". Harvard > text omits "sa.nkaro natthi". The word "sa.nkara" in the sense of > 'confounding' or error is not in P.T.S. Dict.; see Vis. concluding > verses. P.T.S. ed., p. 711. > > 'Though these things, that is to say, the "mark ... of the female", > etc., arise each due to its own condition consisting in kamma, etc., > they mostly only do so as modes in a continuity accompanied by the > feminity faculty. And so "it is manifested as the reason for the mark", > etc., is said making the feminity faculty their cause. > > 'As regards the "mark of the female", etc., too, its "facultiness" is > stated as predominance, in other words, as a state of cause, because the > conditions for the modal matter (aakaara-ruupa) consisting of the mark > of the female, etc., in a continuity accompanied by faculties do not > arise otherwise, and because these kinds of materiality are a condition > for apprehending the female. But because the feminity faculty does not > generate even the material instances in its own group or maintain or > consolidate them, and because it does not so act for the material > instances of other groups, it is therefore not called in the text > faculty, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, as the life faculty > is for the material instances of its group, and as nutriment is for the > material instances in succeeding groups. And it is because the mark, > etc., are dependent on other conditions that wherever they have > predominance its shape is encountered, even in dead and sculptured > matter that resembles it. And so too with the masculinity faculty. > > 'And since these two do not occur together in a single continuity, > because of the words "Does the masculinity faculty arise in one in whom > the feminity faculty arises? -- No" (Yamaka), etc., therefore even in a > hermaphrodite there is only one of them at a given moment (see also > DhsA. 323)' (Pm.448). > > ========================== So, from this, what are we to say that feminine faculty and masculine faculty *are*??? Some mystical, magical unseen hidden causes of what we conventionally take to be feminine and masculine characteristics? Will someone say they are genes? Uh, uh - genes are pa~n~natti! This business, like jivitindriya, is just more evidence of how weak the rupa notion is handled in Abhidhamma. Sorry, my Abhidhammika friends - I seem to be in an ornery mood! Must be the season, right! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28198 From: Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:09pm Subject: "Doing" Abhidhamma Hi, all - I think there is a sense in which abhidhamma can be thought of as an ongoing investigative, intellectual analysis operating symbiotically with an ongoing process of direct, mindful, observational analysis of what arises in the namarupic stream. Of course, when we worldlings engage in such a process, we have to take our "discoveries" and our theories with a grain of salt, holding our "conclusions" as quite provisional. The main thing, as I see it, though, is that abhidhammic development, when done properly, even by such as us, as a review and analysis of what is actually observed, and with great care taken in avoiding atta-centric approaches, can be a real help in enabling us to see the impersonal, insubstantial, conditioned and objective nature of reality. To study the analyses already made by those further along than we, subjecting their findings to our own careful perusal and evaluation, and to then further apply the same approach ourselves to direct experince can serve as genuine intellectual support for seeing things as they really are. This is a kind of "gnani yoga" view of the role of abhidhamma and abidhammic development. Thoughts, anyone? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28199 From: Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58 Howard: "This business, like jivitindriya, is just more evidence of how weak the rupa notion is handled in Abhidhamma." Hi Howard, What a surprise! I thought you would like this:>)) Actually,I haven't figured out what this is saying yet. Hopefully Nina will have some clarifying remarks. However, I can't imagine what abhidhamma, or anything else, would be without concepts. What could you say? Larry 28200 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:18pm Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not Hi James, I just finished reading your response and I appreciate the time you put into it. There are so many points I would like to address and clarify, some of them would be good to discuss in separate posts. But that would take a lot of energy and time which I don't have. So I have decided to just intersperse comments between yours. It is going to be very long, so I will freely snip some parts of your post to make it less so. Going straight to it. > Your writing style is more `stream of consciousness', a style I greatly enjoy in > writers like Kerouac and Ginsberg, but takes a lot of effort to decipher. > Maybe I don't take the effort I should sometimes because there are so > many posts to read in this group! ;-) S: I lack clarity of mind, and I tend to get lost in thoughts or otherwise stuck on one object. Any understanding that arises, come in between quite a muddled brain. That is me, James. I wish I could be more `centered', but I guess that will come only when and if the kilesas have been substantially reduced. > Sukin: There was no doubt about the "content" and value of Abhidhamma > as against scientific materialist views, but the concern was about > one's own understanding of the Buddha's teachings and whether one is > going to be forever *stuck* on the theoretical level?! Or worse, one > is under the illusion that one *is* making progress. > > James: Excellent! I say that these are good doubts. Stick with > them and ponder them more. I had these same doubts when I first read > Nina's writings about the Abhidhamma and then became even more > convinced of their validity as my participation in this group > continued. I have quit a couple of times, because I obviously don't > belong, but I keep getting called back. Go figure?? ;-) (I guess: > What fun is discussion when everyone agrees with each other? ;-) S: `Stick with them' James? I think this is the mistake of `clinging', no? There may be what you call `good doubts' arising, but I believe that once the mind has proliferated, it can't be kusala or good. Then `doubt' (the usual one) starts to take control, assisted by avijja and clinging to self. I'll say some more about this later on in this post. > Sukin: I guess my answer is `not to think too much'! :-/ Don't grasp at > anything while studying and contemplating. Labeling or guessing will > take place, just knowing them even intellectually as just that, is > good enough for now. > > James: Hmm…it doesn't sound like you are too confident in this > answer. Does this really satisfy you? Personally, it sounds like > you are saying that you need to think and not think at the same time, > to have the concepts and labels in your mind but to somehow not have > them. How are you supposed to accomplish this? Personally, I don't > believe this is possible. S: This needs some clarification; I was vague in my last post. Like I said I was thinking about Herman's comment. I realized that the labeling and guessing was inevitable, as in automatic. It was not like I `chose' to do it, but rather that because I `learnt' the theory, in practice because of the lack of firm understanding and lobha seeking to latch upon any form of `meaning', the process was inevitable. Believing that there is no other way but to rely on `pariyatti' and so allowing for such labeling to continue taking place, I figured that I should not make it worse, encouraging doubt by engaging in `too much `thinking'' and/or have any aversive reaction. Also, depending on how one grasps at the theory, that much is the likelihood that one will be labeling etc. Of course there is no one who can control any of this ;-). Does this clarify? > Sukin: However I do believe that an appreciation for its value is a > sign of understanding the Buddha's teachings. And I apologize if this > is a presumption, but I think that "you" do too. Your objection is > only to certain aspects which I believe you should not dismiss, but > instead keep an open mind and allow for the possibility that you will > agree with it in the future.;-) > > James: This is a little presumptuous, but that is okay. I have > varying degrees of acceptance and non-acceptance of different aspects > of the Abhidhamma which I am not going to enumerate now or it would > put you to sleep! ;-). However, you way you state it you seem to > assume that I am predominately in favor of the Abhidhamma but there > are small aspects I don't agree with and, given time and enough > wisdom, I may agree with them. First, that isn't correct, I > officially reject the entire Abhidhamma on principal (if any of it is > wrong, then the whole thing is wrong: which is the proper standard of > judging the dhamma). S: This requires some explanation. Abhidhamma may be seen as a `group' of teachings as in a `particular' method of classifying all of known reality, or it can be seen as a collection of books as in the 7 main books and their commentaries. Seen as such it is easy for us worldlings to have an `attractive/repulsive' reaction toward it. But this is taking what is taught in it as a subject divorced from actual experience. However when one starts to apply what is read onto real life, whether directly or just through contemplation, it is no more seen as a `subject' to learn or a `philosophy' to agree or disagree with. One may still see inconsistencies, but that proves nothing, as so much depends on one's own power of comprehension. If one must doubt, make the object, one's own understanding. One may want to prove to oneself if the Abhidhamma is consistent with the other two pitakas. First of all, it is more likely that one's faith and understanding of these other two Pitakas is not even that great to start with. In fact it seems to me that for some, the sudden faith in the Suttas arose only in reaction to their preconceptions about the Abhidhamma. (I am not saying that you or anyone on dsg is caught in this process) ;-). But for me, thanks to K. Sujin and all the fine members of this list, I have come to see in part, that the three pitakas have `one taste', and that they do not contradict one another. And it is with this view that I see that you actually *do* agree with what is taught in the Abhidhamma. The Four NTs, the 8FP, DO, Brahmaviharas are taught in all three Pitakas and I know that you agree with all these. ;-) The outward sign is that you are still here and enjoying the discussions lol. Your main qualm is about Rupas, and this I may come back to later in this post. And I think you overreact when you say: "if any of it is wrong, then the whole thing is wrong: which is the proper standard of judging the dhamma". You are in effect, making it harder to approach it directly, I think. > Second, I have a question for you: Do you have > an open mind and entertain the possibility that I am correct and that > the Abhidhamma is a false teaching? Do you think that maybe sometime > in the future you will learn the error of your thinking and turn away > from the Abhidhamma? Would that even be possible or would your mind > be too far indoctrinated with its concepts and labels? (Sorry for > the melodrama! LOL! "Luke, turn away from the dark side of the > Force." Hehehe..) S: After reading the above, do you still want an answer? > James: I didn't know at the time that this came from the Abhidhamma, I thought it was a kind of meditation technique. Ajahn Somporn's English wasn't so great. I attempted to do what he said and found myself very frustrated in the process. It seemed like I was trying to put a new head on top of the one I already have! S: Of course this is not the way. Please refer to Sarah's post to Htoo. That is how I see the role of Abhidhamma and in general `Pariyatti' to be. One does not go about trying to `catch realities' and attempt to identify them. In fact I have been thinking along these lines these past few days and this morning when I saw Ben's post to Jon, it reminded me. I am thinking about how we get carried away by what we read in the Tipitaka and see any description of reality as something we must *get* or *achieve*. This is the worldly mind which is so used to having a greed/aversive reaction to any experience, seeking to get something and to reaching some goal. We do the same thing with Dhamma. But this is what the Buddha had been trying to warn us against. I need to go for my weekly massage, Num calls it the `lazy man's yoga' ;-). I will send this part off and will come back to the rest of your post later. Metta, Sukin. 28201 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from a new member Hi Philip, --- philofillet wrote: > > > Time to introduce myself properly, after popping in briefly the > other day. .... It’s a great intro too. Let me join Christine and Nina in welcoming you to DSG and to thank you for sharing so much about your practice and lifestyle. It sounds like you have a very healthy lifestyle in Japan (whereabouts?). Jon and I had a couple of hiking trips in Japan and loved it, but that was quite some time back. Nina lived in Tokyo for a few years and RobertK lives there now, teaching at a uni in the south. Perhaps you’ll meet him sometime. ..... <...> > I'll be away through the holidays, but I look forward to learning > more from you as I get my fledgling practice going. Since there > doesn't seem to be much in the way of Theravada in Japan, I will be > relying on books and groups like this for the time being. .... Good - let us know if we can help with anything. You might like to take a look at RobertK’s websites also - plenty of useful material that can be downloaded: http://www.vipassana.info/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/ We always welcome any qus or comments as you’re already contributing. You may like to look at Nina’s book, ‘Buddhism in Daily Life’ on one of these websites. Robert’s students are also translating it into Japanese. Some of the books can be bought from Pariyatti very easily and the postage costs are very reasonable from memory. http://www.pariyatti.com/ Also Wisdom and Amazon distribute to Asia. I believe we purchased copies of Nina’s book from Wisdom U.K. .... >If anyone > has information about Theravada in Japan, other than the temple in > Shibuya and the meditation center in Kyoto that I already know about, > I would be grateful to hear it. .... I believe there are also a couple of other lurking/occasional posting members at least in Japan. If you say where you live and work, they may have further suggestions. If you visit Hong Kong anytime and want to go for a walk, let us know - we get well away from the fast cars;-) Meanwhile, I look forward to more of your contributions here. Metta, Sarah ====== 28202 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: >.... Back by popular demand! ;-) .... ;-) I’m also enjoying your discussion with Sukin (Herman & Ken H). Very glad to see you quoting further suttas from Devatasamyutta there as well. I hope others (Sukin et al, Christine et al...) will read SN with us and contribute extracts. .... > James 2: <...> It isn't enough to just think "Oh, there is no self; > there is only the present moment; there are only transient > phenomena." That is just a belief. .... >It isn't enough to have this belief; it has to be > known for oneself, to be directly experienced. .... Agreed;-) ..... James2>The only way to do > that is to have a mind which can really focus and concentrate on the > present moment; .... I know that focus is often used in translations, such as in the Satipatthana sutta. However, if one looks at the real meaning, it is wisdom and awareness that are being referred to. “Wisdom is the source of light in the world; Mindfulness, in the world, is the wakeful one;” SN, Devatasamyuta, 80 (10) I quoted a passage from the comy to the Satipatthana Sutta to Htoo which indicated that ‘necessary in all circumstances’ referred to every and any state or time, including ‘sluggish and unbalanced’ states of mind. Sukin mentioned that he’s often unfocussed on the task at hand (or sth like that). This may be a problem for certain kinds of concentration as we think of it, but not for the development of satipatthana which can have any reality as object, accompanied by rt concentration at any moments of understanding and awareness. This is the meaning of ‘sati sampajanna’, so often translated as contemplation or focussing. ..... James2>and the only way to develop that, for most people, is > to practice Buddhist meditation. This is what I believe and I am > pretty sure it is what the Buddha taught and intended (It would have > been nice if he had been really, really specific so that no questions > could ever be raised about this subject, but specifics wouldn't have > fit everyone and every situation). ..... I think the teachings are really, really specific, but what we can understand is limited by our accumulated ignorance and wrong view. Any comment or statement of the Buddha’s can and is mis-interpreted accordingly. .... > James 2: <...> > I > believe that the Buddha is saying that the Bhikkhu should be mindful > of everything .... i.e. any nama or rupa to be specific;-) .... James2: >that occurs, right at this very moment, as if he had > been stabbed with a sword or his head was on fire and his life > depended on it. Nothing will bring a person to the present moment > like an emergency! However, being mindful of non self isn't truly > being mindful, it is a belief. How can a person be mindful of what > he doesn't know yet? That type of mindfulness is an artificial, > mental construct and is not what the Buddha intended, I believe. .... Agreed;-) ... James2>It > is also not a mental construct that inspires a sense of emergency; > heck, to you it inspires a belief that there is no control. Since > there is no one to do anything about it, one might as well die on the > sword or let the head burn up! LOL! (just kidding). .... Agreed that mere thinking and mental constructs do not of themselves lead anywhere. It would also be painful and burning wrong view to act as you suggest:;-( It comes back to that ‘everything’, the namas and rupas to be known more and more specifically. .... > James 2: I don't believe that right concentration is ever present > when there are pleasant or unpleasant feelings. Right concentration > needs to be accompanied by equanimity or it isn't right > concentration. ..... It’s true as you say that rt concentration (and all good cittas) are accompanied by equanimity. However, these will also be accompanied by either neutral or pleasant feeling. There are lots of textual references to rt concentration with pleasant feeling and joy (as I was discussing with Michael). “Faith is here a man’s best treasure; Dhamma practised well brings happiness*; Truth is really the sweetest of tastes; One living by wisdom they say lives best.” *I’m sure this would refer to ‘good’ pleasant feeling and joy. Also note, even the first 2 jhanas are accompanied by pleasant feeling and joy. .... James2>Sure, I could concentrate really hard on killing > someone (like my landlady! Heheh..Just kidding ;-) but that wouldn't > be right concentration and it wouldn't develop wisdom. Conversely, I > could concentrate really hard on winning the lottery but that > wouldn't be right concentration and wouldn't create wisdom either. <...> .... Exactly and well put! In other words, it is not the degree of concentration or the pleasant feeling which determines the good or bad states as these can accompany kusala and akusala cittas. (Hope there’s a little metta for your landlady these days - it will automatically be accompanied by rt concent without any focussing or concentrating as you mena it;-)) ... James2> For me, right > concentration only occurs when I am meditating on a neutral object, > like the sensation of the breath or a candle flame, and my > concentration is accompanied by equanimity. From this practice, I > will more naturally develop equanimity when experiencing everyday > events and then have right mindfulness. .... Even neutral feeling cannot be any guide. There could be concentrating on an object with awareness or with ignorance at such a time. There can also be attachment at these times with indifferent feeling which is not as strong as with pleasant feeling. Only awareness and wisdom can know at any moment, not by thinking in terms of conceptual frameworks but by directly knowing these different states that change all the time. ..... <...> James2 >And because I don't > have that much right concentration I don't have that much right > mindfulness in my daily life. I would be the first to admit that I > am one flawed individual! ;-) But, hey, I keep trying…that is all I > can do. .... These are wise comments. If there is no seeing and knowing the flaws when they are apparent and recognizing how very little mindfulness and knowledge there really is in a day, it’s difficult for there to be any progress. More and more flaws to be known in between seeing and hearing and so on. Bubbles and so on - not James’s or Sarah’s;-) “Truly, the wise do not pretend, For they have understood the way of the world” Devatasamyutta, 35(5) as you first quoted;-) .... <......big snip to set a good example;-)> .... > S: So what are the right conditions for enlightenment? The good friend > (s), Hearing dhamma, wise consideration etc. > ... > James2: Yes, these are important factors because they help to > condition right concentration and right mindfulness. Perhaps with > those few exceptional individuals just those things you list would be > enough. The power of concentration and mindfulness is already there > and they just need a few more right conditions. I know that for > myself I am not that fortunate. I must strive diligently for every > tiny scrap of wisdom that I can gain. .... It seems this way for us all. I mean, it seems there really is a ‘ME’ that can and must strive. But when we think like this, it is another conceptual framework or a view that this is so rather than any direct awareness as we think and speak. .... James2 >I work so hard at it because I > know that I have a lot of hard work to do. <...> .... It’s OK, and as you’ve said before, there may be many different benefits for you in sitting quietly. However, when there is the trying to focus or trying to be mindful or working so hard, who is focussing and working at these times? .... > James 2: ..... I don't really think > that I am being greedy by wanting the grand stream; I just feel that > anything less isn't enough. Sure I appreciate every little drop of > wisdom, and I want them to collect over time, but I also want the dam > to break and the skies to just pour…to carry me to the other side of > the shore. .... And what is this wanting if it isn’t attachment? ;-) ..... James2> .... I > don't think that I can just passively expect this to happen or that > just by will power alone I am going to be able to see the ultimate > reality of the present moment. I have to create the right conditions > for this to happen. .... ‘I have to create’?? .... James2 >For me, Buddhist meditation is one of those > right conditions. And sorry, but I don't think the Abhidhamma > adequately describes the present moment either. Sure, it has some > good parts and some truths, but it also has some falsehoods I believe > (rupa being a significant one). ..... That’s OK.....plenty of rupas will creep up on us as we progress through SN and look at the sections on the khandhas, the elements, the sense bases and so on. I’m happy to stick to quotations from the section we’re studying for these discussions;-) ..... J2 > Metta and appreciation for your hospitality and friendliness, ..... Thank you. Metta, Sarah p.s I was very glad to read that you are following the Vism extracts and Qus. I think we can just leave the pace to Larry and Nina as they are the main contributors and understand each other. They’ll be glad if you comment or ask any qus. You can always ask Jon or Nina or anyone for clarifications in simple English too;-) We can set our own pace on the SN thread and add as many or few quotes as we like. Btw, devatasamyutta is easily the longest chapter in the Sagathavagga (Book with verses) section, so take your time. I also recall the Sagathavagga was the hardest part for B.Bodhi to translate because of all the verses. ==================================================== 28203 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] How To Get Through The Samsara ( 10 ) Dear Eddie Lou, Thanks for your interest in Dhamma. Sarah has linked the site for easy access and see her post ( Msg ) #28193. Or number (09) is at (Mag ) # 27992 and you can go to there. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Lou wrote: > Hello, Htoo Naing, > I am not sure if I miss the #09 for this Great series > you are unravelling for us all. If I did, can you do > me a favor, can you please repost it ? > Thanks, > > You know, I also came from Myanmar. > > Eddie Lou > > --- Htoo Naing wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > The Dhamma practitioner is practising Kayanupassana > ............ > > May you all practise Vipassana to attain beneficial > > effects > > > > With Unlimited Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing 28204 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > HOWEVER, it is > focussed > meditation, formal samatha bhavana, that is the primary cultivational > tool, on a > base of calming sila, making the mind a fit, malleable instrument for > the > investigation of dhammas and the cultivation of insight. The Buddha put > enormous > emphasis on this. ..... I was hesitant to respond as I’m not sure I can add anything new on this line, but nonetheless....conditions rule;-) With all due respect (and I do respect all your comments as being very well-considered), I think the Buddha put ‘enormous emphasis’ on understanding the value of all kinds of wholesome states and in showing that only the ‘cultivation of insight’ leads to the final goal. Any wholesome states can be an aid or conditioning factor for insight to arise, but they can also be a conditioning factor for wrong view of self and attachment too, as in ‘MY great generosity’ and so on if there isn't any clear knowledge of the various states, more and more precisely. So the understanding and detachment has to begin at this moment which sees more and more clearly the value of wholesome states including samatha and recognising the attachment, wrong views of self being calm, pleasant feeling, concentration and so on which are so often mistakenly seen as being samatha or bhavana. You were having a useful discussion with Christine on impermanence. As I understand it, it is only by the development of detachment to conditioned realities and the understanding of them as anatta that sati can arise with sufficient precision and frequency for panna to know the impermanent nature of these same namas and rupas. Otherwise, like now, there may be a moment of awareness of a reality or characteristic, but this is bound to be followed by ideas of ‘things’ and ‘people’ again. As you said, ‘No conditioned state remains, and, hence, there is nothing to cling to.’ We can just have a theoretical idea now of the sense of this, but as panna develops it can directly understand the conditioned and impermanent nature of these realities, including the very 'pure' ones. But this can only be by the path of detachment from whatever is conditioned at this moment, not by focussing or concentrating on specific objects as I see it. Any bhavana, whether samatha or vipassana, has to begin with understanding. With understanding, the bhavana takes care of itself, whether sitting ‘formally’ or not. Do you have a copy of SN, Howard? I’d be delighted (and I know James would too) if you could continue to chip in anytime. Here's one you'll like under Devatasamyutta, Old Age, 51(1): [A devata:] "What is good until old age? What is good when established? What is the precious gem of humans? What is hard for thieves to steal?" [The Blessed One;] "Virtue is good until old age; Faith is good when established; Wisdom is the precious gem of humans; Merit is hard for thieves to steal." Metta, Sarah ====== 28205 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminders [ho ho ho] Hi Azita (Sukin & Howard), --- gazita2002 wrote: > Dear All, > > Here is a different reminder and the 'ho ho ho' will be obvious > [maybe] given the time of year that we're in: > > The Early Teachers [cited at Vism XI,23] > > The pleasant drink, the pleasant food, > Hard, soft, whatever it may be: > Through one door it is loaded in, > Through nine it trickles out again. .... ;-) Repulsiveness in Nutriment - a good reflection for the waist-line at this time of year too;-) (hi, Sukin, this reflection could be the answer to your prayers...) (Howard: VismX1 lots more on nutriment and nutritive essence, also see n2) Thanks Azita, Metta & ho, ho, ho holidays, Sarah ===== 28206 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:51am Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not Hi James, Continued….. S: The truth about anatta and conditionality must apply to this very moment. Greed and ignorance is not dissociated from the mind that decides to *do* something. Even someone who studies the Abhidhamma and appears to understand it to some degree, often ends up asking, "So now I know, what next?!" I realize that it is very hard to get over this tendency, and how else would such a `blind spot' ever be revealed, except when some wise friend points it out to us. > I got the impression that > he didn't do this type of meditation either but he felt obligated to > teach it to me. Now I know why. The Abhidhamma does have some > powerful influence in Thailand. S: You will be surprised to know how most Thais feel about the Abhidhamma. It is in Burma rather, that the Abhidhamma has much influence, not in Thailand. > The Abhidhamma attempts to explain `The World' in a way that the > Buddha did not. Allow me to quote part of one of my favorite suttas > that I have quoted before in this group (and include the notes this > time) SN, Devaputtasamyutta, 26. Rohitassa "…It is, friend, in just > this fathom-long carcass endowed with perception and mind that I make > known the world, the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, > and the way leading to the cessation of the world…. > Now, According to the Abhidhamma, nama and rupa are separate from > each other and exist independently, with their own characteristics > and are ultimate. I completely disagree and believe that this > thinking is contrary to what the Buddha taught. I am not interested > in descriptions of any world separate from the world of human > experience. S: I have absolutely no confidence in my ability to interpret Suttas, but I will say what I understand about this Sutta as compared to Abhidhamma. We all have a `world view' and take whatever we experience as belonging to either ours or other. We arrange and rearrange the world as per our ignorance and wrong view and proliferate into believing in all sorts of ideas about self in relation to the world. The sutta in my estimation, is not talking about what exists ultimately, but that within this same body that the illusion has been created, is the enlightenment possible. The teaching of Abhidhamma as I understand it, is descriptive of *all* possible realities. So it talks about not only what is within the range of `humans', but the realities that are and which is within the range of devas, petas, rupabrahmas, arupabrahmas and so on. In other words it does not particularly talk about *this world*, but all possible worlds. So its description of the material world (of rupa), deals with its own conditioned nature some of which is not dependent on your or my existence, let alone perception. We have all been conditioned since ever and reinforced in this particular lifetime by science to view the material world quite differently from what it actually is. When I first heard about Rupa I was dazed, and the thought came to my mind that the day I understand Abhidhamma rupa, is the day I have significantly come to understand the Buddha's teachings. I still don't understand it, but I do sometimes notice my old conditioned ways of interpretation and attempt to understand. The `kalapa' for example, is often `visualized' as if it was something like an atom or something. But this is wrong. I realize that we are primary visual beings, but imagine a blind and deaf person, how these would try to `make sense' of the world? As I visualize a kalapa, wouldn't a blind person do so in terms of tangibility and sound? The scientist is a deluded worldling just like you and me, but he has managed to convince all of us of his world view. Of course we agree with him. But we need to change that. James for a start, can you accept that Rupa is that part of experience which "does not know"? If so, can you now start to see or at least visualize :-/, that each of them, earth, water, life faculty, feminity, etc. all have distinct characteristics? If so, do you believe that they exist when they do? Do you see any significance with the 28 rupa classification? Why didn't Buddha classify only the primary element plus perhaps space as some then existent philosophies did? I think the fact is that all these exist and no one else had the insight to know it. Science for example, attributes as `property of' to objects "seen". They are labeled as iron, oxygen, water etc. and characteristic of hardness and viscosity etc. are attributed to them. This is clearly being taken by the `concepts'. I think we are all conditioned to view in this way and so when first hearing about Rupa, our initial reaction is of non acceptance. What do you think? >You think factors > like "Right Speech" and "Right Livelihood" are simply mental > factors? That isn't true. Right speech is speaking rightly, with > one's mouth…or pen. Understand? Right Livelihood is working > rightly, with one's body, in order to gain sustenance. These are > pretty common sense things. It seems that you are creating some kind > of lofty, esoteric idea out of the Eightfold Path which isn't > necessary. It is quite fine the way it is. S: When I first heard about it I had more or less the same question as you. If I remember right I even bet with Mike when he was here, that it is not the case, and we asked K. Sujin, and I was proved wrong. Consider this, can there be any of the other `Rights' without Rt. View? And then when considering each you will see that one cannot be without the others except for the three virati cetasikas, including the two you mentioned above, (yes they are cetasikas), the third being Rt. Action. The main five factors arise each time a reality (paramattha dhamma) is the object, meaning during Satipatthana. The three mentioned above arise only during enlightenment and they serve the function of eradicating the defilements at the corresponding level of Stream Entry and so on. Does this make sense? > I don't know what a `path moment' is but it isn't the way the Buddha > categorized the Eightfold Path. He described the Eightfold Path as a > vehicle. For support I turn again to SN, Devatasamyutta (Sorry, I am > studying it at this time; I'm sure there are other examples) 46. > Nymphs: > > …"'The straight way' that path is called, > And `fearless' is its destination. > The chariot is called `unrattling' > Fitted with wheels of wholesome states. > > The sense of shame is its leaning board, > Mindfulness its upholstery; > I call the Dhamma the charioteer > With right view running out in front. > > One who has such a vehicle- > Whether a woman or a man- > Has, by means of this vehicle, > Drawn close to Nibbana. > (Note 102: Having completed the discourse (the verse), the Buddha > taught the Four Noble Truths, and at the end of that discourse the > deva was established in the fruit of stream-entry; the other beings > present attained the fruits that accorded with their own supporting > conditions.)" S: The above explanation can apply here I think. > No the Eightfold Path is not like steps to follow; I never said > that. But I do believe that all of the factors of the path are > different and don't necessarily all come together at the same time or > in the same way. Of course they must all come together, in the > proper way, for the vehicle to carry a person. S: In terms of the development of kusala which accumulates as Parami, I agree that it is necessary to develop them otherwise one can never reach the other shore. But the N8P is different and is not something to be developed in this same way. > James: How does one `try out' the Abhidhamma? I don't understand > your meaning. To me that would mean that I would need to stop > meditating and attempt to have `path moments' during everyday > experience by labeling nama and rupa when I notice them. Right? I > have already attempted to incorporate the Abhidhamma into meditation > and I found it impossible. What would you suggest I do? I am > willing to try anything if I understand what you mean. It doesn't > seem to me that those who follow the Abhidhamma have any kind of > practice whatsoever except studying the dhamma and discussing it. To > me, that's more like a book club than the dhamma-sangha. Sorry, I chose the wrong expression, of course you can't tell anyone to try Abhidhamma, it is not a `thing' that one can move towards. It is the understanding and that cannot be made to arise. Let me just say, stick with this group and notice any aversive reaction when ever they arise and not let it control you. Just don't make up your mind about it. ;-) > Metta, James Metta, Sukin. 28207 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:01am Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not Hi Ken, I am happy that you appreciate my post and the starting of this thread. :-) Tomorrow I will be a bit busy and the day after I go for a short vacation. So can I pass on the baton to you. ;-) Happy holidays to everyone. Metta, Sukin. > Thanks for starting this thread. Apart from "well said" > and "me too," I don't have much to add at this stage. > (Lost for words.) 28208 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:19am Subject: Re: Ho! Ho! HO! Merry X'mas!!! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > Ho! Ho! HO! > Merry X'mas!! Hi Star Kid Sandy! Merry Christmas to you too! Hope you have a nice one. Let me get to your questions: Did the Buddha celebrate christmas? Answer: No, the Buddha lived and died before the birth of Jesus. What did the Buddha do at christmas? Answer: Well, to the Buddha it wasn't any special type of holiday. On that day I would imagine that he taught the dhamma, by word or example, like he did every day. Is there any special food that the Buddha and his men eat in different festivals/seasons? Answer: The Buddha and his monks (which included women) would eat whatever lay followers would offer to them. The texts often describe that when someone made a special feast for the Buddha and his sangha, they would serve "delicious hard and soft foods". I don't know what that means exactly. The Buddha and his monks were not supposed to enjoy the food anyway; they were just supposed to eat it to keep the body strong for final liberation. What did you mean when you said "The Buddha wanted to know if there was any way to stop this process?" Answer: The Buddha saw that life was suffering: one is born only to grow old, sick, and die, suffering the entire time. This may be hard for you to understand because you are young and the world, including you, seems like it will last forever, but it won't. And when you get to the end of your life you will wonder: What was it all for? Well, the Buddha had the strong hindsight to know what was coming and he wanted to do something about it. He wanted to end this process of suffering, for himself and everyone. He discovered that we suffer because we are born, and we are born because we crave existence, and we crave existence because we are ignorant of the truth. So, if one discovers the truth, the craving goes away, the ignorance goes away, and birth goes away. He had found the solution! Most people don't like to hear this solution because they want to have lasting peace and individual life also, but the Buddha discovered that that isn't possible. To end the suffering means that one must give up the desire to exist, to give up the desire to exist one must realize that there is no `self' which exists anyway. It is a figment of the imagination. A lie and a phantom that ignorance tells us is real. This lie causes the universal suffering. I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year too! Take care and be safe. Metta, James 28209 From: philofillet Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from a new member --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Philip, > Let me join Christine and Nina in welcoming you > to DSG ____ Thank you, Sarah. I appreciate your warm welcome. The depth of knowledge and experience in this group is very impressive. I'm sure I will learn a lot, and will be very happy to be the befuddled but eager beginner full of questions - I guess every good Sangha needs a few of those, right? :) I look forward to getting to know you all better in 2004, The Year of the Monkey! (Promises to be a good year for me and my chattering mind. I will teach the monkey to rest more often next year.) With Metta, Philip 28210 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:36am Subject: Re: On more questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Hi James' > Thank you for a reply for each letter and for each > Hi Star Kid Janet! I am glad that you enjoyed the photo. It is a very lovely temple to visit. Maybe you will get to see it someday. Okay, let me get to your questions: 1 Why do sports bore you? Answer: I don't know; I'm just weird I guess! :P Actually, I have never liked any kind of games, ever since I was a little boy. I don't like card games, board games, video games, not any kind of games. They just seemed silly to me, and pointless. Maybe because I didn't care if I won or lost, it seemed unimportant. I would always come up with creative and interesting things for me and my friends to do instead of playing games and sports…and some of those things got me into a lot of trouble! Hehehe… 2 Are you a student of buddha? Answer: Yes, I am. And I am still learning. 3 If buddha is still alive now, how old is he? Answer: The Buddha isn't still alive. He died when he was eighty years old, about 2,500 years ago. Will you celebrate Christmas? Answer: No. I hope you have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! Take care and stay safe. Metta, James 28211 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:09am Subject: Re: Buddhism questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > James and everyone else: > > Thanx for your explanation about killing life. Anyway, > can you answer a few more questionx? > > 1. In many comic strips and cartoons, they give me an > image that all monks know a lot of kungfu, that means > they know a lot about fighting and karate and Judo and > all that stuff. Do you need to know these things in > order to become a monk? > > 2. They also say that monks spend lots and lots of > time to practice kungfu on top of hills. Is that true? > Is it necessary for you to do it? > > Thanx for answering. Thanx a lot. > > Philip > Hi Star Kid Philip! I will group both of your questions together and give you one answer. The depictions you are seeing of Buddhist monks are of monks in the past and in only certain parts of the world. Buddhist monks in China developed a form of martial arts called Shao Lin, from which Kung Fu originates. It is said that when Bodhidharma traveled from India to China he found that the Buddhist monks there were lazy and had incorrect translations of the Buddhist scriptures. After some time, he taught them the art of Kung Fu to unify their minds and strengthen their bodies. They didn't learn this art form to go out and fight people but to help them to meditate, because they were often falling asleep. Not all Buddhist monks practice Kung Fu and I am not sure if Buddhist monks in China do it today or not. It mainly developed to add discipline and concentration to monks who were quite lazy and confused about the Buddha's teaching. It isn't necessary. The Buddha didn't practice Kung Fu. I have learned and sometimes practice a more gentle form of Kung Fu called Tai Chi. It is nice to do right before meditation if the mind is especially scattered and uncooperative. Hope this answers your questions. Metta, James 28212 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:36am Subject: Re: "Doing" Abhidhamma: To Howard Dear Howard, Nina, Robert K, Mike Niece and all How are you? Howard, I agree with your approach to abhidhamma. As one who regards abhidhamma as the most important teachings of the Buddha, and as one who understand abhidhamma to be realities for observation, eradication, development and realization, let me tell you that there are discoveries to be made through on-going participation in applying those teachings to any situation in real life. I find it very beneficial to ponder on any interesting or challenging topic or topics of abhidhamma, be they coming from Sutta, Vinaya or Abhidhamma, every day as a long-term project. Again through trying to apply it to any real life situation. One thing is for sure bound to happen. New insights into the matter under consideration will keep coming along the way. May more and more scientists discover abhidhamma and take over the field of Buddhist Studies, which is currently in the wrong hands of speculative academics such as the likes of Professor David Kalupahana and other neo-Ryhs-Davidsites! With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, all - I think there is a sense in which abhidhamma can be thought of as an ongoing investigative, intellectual analysis operating symbiotically with an ongoing process of direct, mindful, observational analysis of what arises in the namarupic stream. Of course, when we worldlings engage in such a process, we have to take our "discoveries" and our theories with a grain of salt, holding our "conclusions" as quite provisional. The main thing, as I see it, though, is that abhidhammic development, when done properly, even by such as us, as a review and analysis of what is actually observed, and with great care taken in avoiding atta-centric approaches, can be a real help in enabling us to see the impersonal, insubstantial, conditioned and objective nature of reality. To study the analyses already made by those further along than we, subjecting their findings to our own careful perusal and evaluation, and to then further apply the same approach ourselves to direct experince can serve as genuine intellectual support for seeing things as they really are. This is a kind of "gnani yoga" view of the role of abhidhamma and abidhammic development. Thoughts, anyone? With metta, Howard 28213 From: Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/23/03 4:29:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >HOWEVER, it is > >focussed > >meditation, formal samatha bhavana, that is the primary cultivational > >tool, on a > >base of calming sila, making the mind a fit, malleable instrument for > >the > >investigation of dhammas and the cultivation of insight. The Buddha put > >enormous > >emphasis on this. > ..... > I was hesitant to respond as I’m not sure I can add anything new on this > line, but nonetheless....conditions rule;-) > > With all due respect (and I do respect all your comments as being very > well-considered), I think the Buddha put ‘enormous emphasis’ on > understanding the value of all kinds of wholesome states and in showing > that only the ‘cultivation of insight’ leads to the final goal. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I certainly don't debate that. That is not the issue. The issue is the importance of cultivating calm and concentration especially to the jhanic level as a way of making the mind a fit, malleable tool for investigation of dhammas. The Buddha placed great emphasis on this. I maintained that, and I still do. In particular, a study of the M. Nikaya makes this very clear. If you deny that this was emphasized by the Buddha, then we are at odds on this issue, but the matter is easily settled by looking at the teachings. If you do not deny it, then we seem to have no differences when it comes to "cultivation," because there is no question in my mind that the distinctively Buddhist cultivational approach is that of mindful awareness and investigation of dhammas, based on understanding the Buddha's teachings and leading to liberative wisdom. ---------------------------------------------- Any> > wholesome states can be an aid or conditioning factor for insight to > arise, but they can also be a conditioning factor for wrong view of self > and attachment too, as in ‘MY great generosity’ and so on if there isn't > any clear knowledge of the various states, more and more precisely. > > So the understanding and detachment has to begin at this moment which sees > more and more clearly the value of wholesome states including samatha and > recognising the attachment, wrong views of self being calm, pleasant > feeling, concentration and so on which are so often mistakenly seen as > being samatha or bhavana. > > You were having a useful discussion with Christine on impermanence. As I > understand it, it is only by the development of detachment to conditioned > realities and the understanding of them as anatta that sati can arise with > sufficient precision and frequency for panna to know the impermanent > nature of these same namas and rupas. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that one has to "know" at least enough about the tilakkhana to look with the intention of seeing these characteristics. Because of how thorougly our minds have been warped by ignorance, we tend to miss what is right in front of our face! ---------------------------------------------------- > > Otherwise, like now, there may be a moment of awareness of a reality or > characteristic, but this is bound to be followed by ideas of ‘things’ and > ‘people’ again. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep! --------------------------------------------------- As you said, ‘No conditioned state remains, and, hence,> > there is nothing to cling to.’ We can just have a theoretical idea now of > the sense of this, but as panna develops it can directly understand the > conditioned and impermanent nature of these realities, including the very > 'pure' ones. But this can only be by the path of detachment from whatever > is conditioned at this moment, not by focussing or concentrating on > specific objects as I see it. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: The concentrating is just a conditioner, Sarah. Like cutting down on the noise in a concert hall, it helps one appreciate the concert, but unless the orchestra is present and plays, all the silence in the hall will be to no avail. ------------------------------------------------- > > Any bhavana, whether samatha or vipassana, has to begin with > understanding. With understanding, the bhavana takes care of itself, > whether sitting ‘formally’ or not. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree, but most especially so with regard to vipassana bhavana. ----------------------------------------------- > > Do you have a copy of SN, Howard? I’d be delighted (and I know James would > too) if you could continue to chip in anytime. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: SN = Samyutta Nikaya? Or SN = Sutta Nipata? (I own each, in any case.) ---------------------------------------------- > > Here's one you'll like under Devatasamyutta, Old Age, 51(1): > > [A devata:] > "What is good until old age? > What is good when established? > What is the precious gem of humans? > What is hard for thieves to steal?" > > [The Blessed One;] > "Virtue is good until old age; > Faith is good when established; > Wisdom is the precious gem of humans; > Merit is hard for thieves to steal." > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28214 From: hsing hsieh Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Thank you for sending this long e-mail. Do you know my question? 28215 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:34am Subject: anapanasati 8 b anapanasati 8 b We read in the Co. to the Anapana Sati Sutta: The Co states that it is thus elsewhere (in other texts), but that in this sutta it is handed down that the mundane foundations of mindfulness perfect the mundane enlightenment factors, and that these perfect clear vision (vijjå), deliverance (vimutti), fruition (phala) and nibbana, which are lokuttara. Because in this sutta ³clear vision and deliverance² designate clear vision, fruition (phala) and nibbana.> Final conclusion: I feel as if I have come to the end of a long journey through this study of anapana sati. I am very impressed by the Intro to the Sutta: the foremost disciples of the Buddha, arahats, instructed the new bhikkhus. The Buddha waited with the invitation ceremony until the Komudian festival, so that the bhikkhus could attain the unattained, realize the unrealized. The Buddha explained to them anapana sati because they were very interested in this subject. He explained mindfulness of breathing in four tetrads, groups of four, each of them combined subsequently with the four foundations of mindfulness. The Visuddhimagga gives a detailed explanation of the way to be mindful of breath, to develop it so that jhana is reached. Buddhaghosa did not create this way of development himself, he was most faithful to the old traditions he found, to the teachers of old. He very seldom added a thought of his own. I do not think, if this way of development is simplified, such as following the movement of the abdomen, that there will be jhana as result. If jhana is not reached, and there are not the masteries (vasis) in jhana, such as attaining and emerging at any time, at any place, samatha, the development of calm, cannot be a foundation for vipassana. ***** Nina 28216 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:34am Subject: Vis.Tiika58 Vis. : 58. 10. The feminity faculty has the female sex as its characteristic. Its function is to show that 'this is a female'. It is manifested as the reason for the mark, sign, work, and ways of the female (cf. Dhs. 633). 11. The masculinity faculty has the male sex as its characteristic. Its function is to show that 'this is a male'. It is manifested as the reason for the mark, sign, work, and ways of the male (cf. Dhs. 634). Both these last are coexstensive with the whole body, as body sensitivity is. But it does not follow that they have to be called either 'located in the space where body-sensitivity is located' or 'located in the space where that is not located'. Like the natures of visible data, etc., these are not confoundable one with the other. Pali: 58. itthibhaavalakkha.na.m itthindriya.m, itthiiti pakaasanarasa.m, itthili"nganimittakuttaakappaana.m kaara.nabhaavapaccupa.t.thaana.m. purisabhaavalakkha.na.m purisindriya.m, purisoti pakaasanarasa.m, purisali"nganimittakuttaakappaana.m kaara.nabhaavapaccupa.t.thaana.m. tadubhayampi kaayappasaado viya sakalasariira.m byaapakameva, na ca kaayapasaadena .thitokaase .thitanti vaa a.t.thitokaase .thitanti vaati vattabbata.m aapajjati, ruuparasaadayo viya a~n~nama~n~na.m sa"nkaro natthi. Tiika 58 Words: abhidhaana (n): appellation, name itthi: woman. nara: man pakaaseti: to make known sahita: accompanied by santaana (n): continuum Va.t.ta (n): circle, cycle. va.t.ta.msataa: rounded shape. avisada: is: visada: pure, clean, manifest. hattha (m): hand paada (n): foot Thana (n): breast ma.msa (n): flesh massu (n): beard kesa (m): hair bandhana: dressing vattha (n) : cloth. dahara: child li²nga: feature, attribute nimitta: characteristic sign kutta: work, occupation kappa: ways, behaviour, deportment kii.la: play yathaasaka: each its own, respectively yebhuyya: numerous yebhuyyena: mostly ***** Itthiyaa bhaavo, ³itthii²ti vaa bhavati etena citta.m, abhidhaana~ncaati itthibhaavo, The sex of a woman, or because of this her disposition is ³woman², and it is therefore named femininity, ta.m lakkha.na.m etassaati itthibhaavalakkha.na.m. this characteristic of her is thus the female sex. Tato eva ³itthii²ti ta.msahita.m santaana.m pakaasenta.m viya hotiiti vutta.m ³itthiiti pakaasanarasan²ti. Therefore, the continuum that is accompanied by this makes as it were known, ³this is a female², and thus, it was said that it has the function to show, ³this is a female, not a male². Va.t.ta.msataa avisadahatthapaadaaditaa ca itthili"nga.m. The rounded shape and the frailty of hands, feets, and so on are the features of a woman. Thanama.msaavisadataa, nimmassudaa.thitaa, kesabandhana.m, The pronounced form and delicacy of the breast, being without a beard and so on, the dressing of the hairs, vatthaggaha.na~nca ³itthii²ti sa~njaananassa paccayabhaavato itthinimitta.m. and the way of wearing cloths, all these things are the characteristic mark of a female by being a condition of making known that this is a woman. Daharakaalepi suppakamusalakaadiihi kii.laa, mattikatakkena suttakantanaadi ca itthikutta.m, itthikiriyaati attho. Also in youth girls play by winnowing, with pestles and so on, with clay and by spinning and so on, and this is a feminine occupation, meaning, feminine behaviour. Avisada.t.thaanagamanaadiko aakaaro itthaakappo. A woman¹s deportment is her refined way of standing and going, and so on. Aparo nayo itthiina.m muttakara.na.m itthili"nga.m. Saraadhippaayaa itthinimitta.m. The feminine attribute as being the feminine parts is another method of explanation. This has the meaning of the feminine characteristic mark. Avisada.t.thaanagamananisajjaakhaadanabhojanaadikaa itthikutta.m. A woman¹s behaviour is her more refined way of standing, going, sitting, swallowing, eating, and so on. Itthisa.n.thaana.m itthaakappo. Feminine deportment is the continuum of a woman. Imaani ca itthili"ngaadiini yathaasaka.m kammaadinaa paccayena uppajjamaanaanipi And now, since a woman¹s feature and so on also arise each due to its own condition consisting in kamma and so on, yebhuyyena itthindriyasahite eva santaane ta.mtadaakaaraani hutvaa uppajjantiiti they mostly do so as modes in a continuum accompanied by the feminine faculty, itthindriya.m tesa.m kaara.nanti katvaa vutta.m and thus, having made the feminine faculty the reason for these, he said, ³itthili"nganimittakuttaakappaana.m kaara.nabhaavapaccupa.t.thaanan²ti. ³The manifestation is the reason for the mark, sign, occupation and ways of the female.² English: The sex of a woman, or because of this her disposition is ³woman², and it is therefore named femininity, this characteristic of her is thus the female sex. Therefore, the continuum that is accompanied by this makes as it were known, ³this is a female², and thus, it was said that it has the function to show, ³this is a female, not a male². The rounded shape and the frailty of hands, feets, and so on are the features of a woman. The pronounced form and delicacy of the breast, being without a beard and so on, the dressing of the hairs, and the way of wearing cloths, all these things are the characteristic mark of a female by being a condition of making known that this is a woman. Also in youth girls play by winnowing, with pestles and so on, with clay and by spinning and so on, and this is a feminine occupation, meaning, feminine behaviour. A woman¹s deportment is her refined way of standing and going, and so on. The feminine attribute as being the feminine parts is another method of explanation. This has the meaning of the feminine characteristic mark. A woman¹s behaviour is her more refined way of standing, going, sitting, swallowing, eating, and so on. Feminine deportment is the continuum of a woman. And now, since a woman¹s feature and so on also arise each due to its own condition consisting in kamma and so on, they mostly do so as modes in a continuum accompanied by the feminine faculty, and thus, having made the feminine faculty the reason for these, he said, ³The manifestation is the reason for the mark, sign, occupation and ways of the female.² ***** Nina. 28217 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, sex faculty. Hi Howard, Howard: "This business, like jivitindriya, is just more evidence of how weak the rupa notion is handled in Abhidhamma." Howard about rupas: Certainly, it is not easy to understand the way of explanation of the ancient teachers, a world of thinking quite different from yours. Just as Larry, I am not surprised that you do not buy this. But it is good you cry out, otherwise I do not know where it hurts. Let me see what I can do to make it more digestible and acceptable for you. But in a following mail you write at least some positive points about Abhidhamma study. op 23-12-2003 02:15 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > So, from this, what are we to say that feminine faculty and masculine > faculty *are*??? Some mystical, magical unseen hidden causes of what we > conventionally take to be feminine and masculine characteristics? Will someone > say > they are genes? Uh, uh - genes are pa~n~natti! This business, like > jivitindriya, is just more evidence of how weak the rupa notion is handled in > Abhidhamma. N: I would like to stress to all: this is *not* a treatise on sexuology. Of course girls also like to play with little cars, nowadays the dressing of hair, wearing cloths may be the same for boys and girls, etc. Think of emancipation, the equality of sexes, not to be denied. But, let us see what the intention of the commentators is. This is one way of breaking down the idea of "My important personality." I try to learn from this whole passage, even if the examples may seem too simplified or too general. Remember these are only illustrations, and the commentator speaks in a general sense. Of course there are exceptions. The Expositor also says, Thus, he knows he is speaking in a general way. What can I learn? There are many different types of conditions for the way I behave, walk, stand, move about in daily life, my voice, speech, etc. One of these conditions is the sex faculty. To me this is a very good reminder not to take my way of behaviour for self. It is beneficial to know how much sex influences our daily life. These are not mystical, magical unseen hidden causes. The Abhidhamma helps us to analyse these conditions. It supports and refers to satipatthana all the time: seeing the body in the body, not the self in the body. Lodewijk also said how much it is beyond control to be born male or female, and how much this influences our whole life. The Expositor also says that born a woman is a weaker vipaka. True, we are weaker, and for those who have a profession there is discrimination agains women. We also find this in the suttanta, but, the Buddha said, both men and women can become arahats if wisdom is developed. No difference in respect to this. So, I know what I have to do! Nina. 28218 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, explanations. Hi Larry, Howard and all: First some explanations: End of Vis Text: N: Sex-faculty conditions rupas all over the body, and it is compared to bodysense which is also all over the body except in some parts as hairs or nails. But: it is not exactly in the same way as bodysense, it is only a comparison. Vis. Text: N: Visible object is distinct from sound, etc. Thus, femininity is distinct from masculinity. The reference to Yamaka in the foonote should be: 10, Indriya Yamaka, where it is explained that these two faculties are distinct. Explanations to Footnote: 'As regards the "mark of the female", etc., too, its "facultiness" is stated as predominance, in other words, as a state of cause, because the conditions for the modal matter (aakaara-ruupa) consisting of the mark of the female, etc., in a continuity accompanied by faculties do not arise otherwise, and because these kinds of materiality are a condition for apprehending the female. N: Explanation: conditions for the modal matter: namely the different modes of feminine features, signs, occupation and deportment, as explained in the Tiika. Footnote text: But because the feminity faculty does not generate even the material instances in its own group or maintain or consolidate them, and because it does not so act for the material instances of other groups, it is therefore not called in the text faculty, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, as the life faculty is for the material instances of its group, and as nutriment is for the material instances in succeeding groups. N: We have to remember that faculty, indriya, is a leader, but in its own field. Eyesense is a faculty, a leader, an important condiiton for seeing. I quote U.Narada, Guide to Conditional Relations, who explains that sex is a faculty, but not faculty-condition as classified in the Patthana: end quote. The Expositor (II, 321) uses a simile: Nina. op 23-12-2003 05:18 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Howard: "This business, like jivitindriya, is just more evidence of how > weak the rupa notion is handled in Abhidhamma." > > Hi Howard, > > What a surprise! I thought you would like this:>)) > > Actually,I haven't figured out what this is saying yet. Hopefully Nina > will have some clarifying remarks. However, I can't imagine what > abhidhamma, or anything else, would be without concepts. What could you > say? > > Larry 28219 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 54, body consciousness Hi Larry, op 22-12-2003 23:06 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: >>> When I asked if tangible data accompanies every consciousness I > meant >>> does it accompany consciousness in the company of vedana. Does > vedana >>> accompany every consciousness? >> N: Yes, vedanaa is one of the seven universals. We cannot say > tangible >> object accompanies citta, because it is rupa, not nama. It can be > object of >> citta, but not all the time. >> L:Is that vedana always bodily feeling? >> N: No, it is bodily feeling only when it is accompanying the > vipakacitta >> that is body-consciousness. > > ------------- > Larry: What about anxiety? I think in the Vedana Samyutta there are > indications that feeling is always bodily feeling and sometimes > _also_ mental feeling. N: This is not so, it depends on the citta feeling accompanies. The translation may be misleading, when it is said, painful feeling (dukkha vedana) it may mean: mental unhappy feeling or unpleasant bodily feeling. We have to look at the context. Sometimes feelings are classified as three: pleasant, painful and indifferent, and then bodily and mental feelings are taken together. Painful feeling can mean: painful bodily feeling or mental unhappy feeling. But they are not the same, arising with different types of citta. Sometimes feelings are classified as five, and then the two bodily feelings are classified separately from mental feelings. Many ways of classifying feelings (up to 108). Anxiety is a form of dosa, thus, a cetasika. L: If there is no mental feeling with insight > then insight must arise with bodily feeling. Correct? N: No. Insight arises with javanacitta, not with body-consciousness that can only experience tangible object. But as soon as body-consciousness has fallen away, body-consciousness or tangible object can be the object of insight. Insight can arise with pleasant (mental) feeling or with indifferent feeling. L quotes>> N: Yes, I also find it very difficult. Let us not try to find the > mental >> formation, we won't be able to. It cannot be realized by thinking, > but it >> helps to have a clear understanding what different dhammas are on > the level >> of pariyatti. > -------------------- > Larry: I disagree. Let's try to find mental formations. If there is > something there, we can find it by looking. I think the whole nama > category is very subtle. The more clearly we can see how subtle and > ungraspable nama is, the less of a "problem" it is. N: We can study the cetasikas which are comprised in mental formations, but this is for the time being only study. The level of pariyatti. Nama is subtle. Some rupas are directly experienced such as hardness or heat, but nama is more like a hidden reality. L quotes: >> L: Are they like a carriage in which there is >>> no actual carriage itself? I am pretty sure I am bewildered but I > can't >>> actually say, "aHA! there is bewilderment." >> N: You probably mean: they are devoid of self? They are only > cetasikas >> arising because of many different conditions. > > -------------------------- > Larry: No, I mean I can't find the cetasika at all. Just tangible > data and some words. I'm not even real sure about feeling. On the > other hand, I am obviously feeling and reacting like crazy. N: You cannot find the cetasika; no, so long as we confuse nama and rupa, and we do not clearly distinguish between them how could we know clearly cetasika, as different from citta for example. Even that is difficult. Even tangible data: are we sure when there is pure rupa and when nama, not mixed in with other dhammas or with concepts? It is best to begin with the level of pariyatti. It helps to clearly know what is what, and therefore discussions can clear up some misunderstandings. Nina. 28220 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Doing" Abhidhamma: To Howard Dear Suan and Howard, yes, that is the essence. anumodana to both of you, May we all make new discoveries every day and become more and more convinced that the Abhidhamma is for application to any situation, Nina. op 23-12-2003 15:36 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > As one who regards abhidhamma as the most important teachings of the > Buddha, and as one who understand abhidhamma to be realities for > observation, eradication, development and realization, let me tell > you that there are discoveries to be made through on-going > participation in applying those teachings to any situation in real > life. > > I find it very beneficial to ponder on any interesting or challenging > topic or topics of abhidhamma, be they coming from Sutta, Vinaya or > Abhidhamma, every day as a long-term project. Again through trying to > apply it to any real life situation. > > One thing is for sure bound to happen. New insights into the matter > under consideration will keep coming along the way. 28221 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye Door, Ear Door, and Rupas Galore Hi Howard, do you refer to the text of the Dhammasangani, and this in English? The transl has very, very unclear words at times. We would have to go over it again and put it straight. Like representative intellection, ideation, etc. When I know the Pali I do not mind what words are used. I guess I have to order the Pali. Icaro only likes the Pali and Sarah and I may discuss it with him in Febr. when he is back here. Anyway, it is all about realities to be verified at this moment, no matter what words are used. If we keep this constantly in mind, we won't get lost, I assure you. A lot more to discover! Meanwhile I collected a great many topics from your posts, but I have to come back later, one at a time. Some work waiting for me! Nina. op 23-12-2003 00:34 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > The sense door descriptions given in the Dhammasangani sound to me > like the descriptions of pa~n~natti, and not paramattha dhammas. There is talk > of > the sensitive material or sensitive substance of the eye organ and of the ear > organ. 28222 From: nordwest Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] hshsing / Buddists' belief Dear Hshing, if you mean prayers where one asks for example "Please Buddha, help me with my sickness." then such a thing is sometimes common, but is understood by ven. masters as nonsense practice. Noone will answer such a prayer. Buddhists believe not in an all-powerful God. The gods and heavely beings dwell in the respective heaven and god realms, but they are not there to help us with wonderus deeds. However, there are plenty bodhisattva beings in this world who help beings on the right path with a sincere heart and good motivation. We don't have to pray to them for help, they know what is going on. Buddhist prayers are mot often wish prayers for the good of OTHERS, not for oneself. Like the common prayer "May beings be happy, be healthy, live in peace and become enlightened sooner." Such prayers have great powers, and they are often used in combination with individual vows. You can make your own prayer, and your own vows, noone urges you to repeat anything. You have your own qualities and know best, how to help other beings. Gassho, Thomas hshsing wrote:I read a message, a question "Does a buddist pray?". But I can not find any reply. Perhaps I am wrong. I think a buddist believe what Buddha said. Did Buddha say anything about gods or God? Maybe no. Therefore, some buddist believe in gods or God, and some do not believe in gods or God. Am I correct? hshsing@y... 28223 From: Larry Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, explanations. Hi Nina, Very good explanation. I don't have anything to add except possibly about the hermaphrodite. The commentary says there is only masculinity or only femininity at any given moment. Does this mean masculinity or femininity predominates at any given moment because of predominance condition? Larry ps: I think what Howard was objecting to is all the concepts involved in "mark, sign, work, and ways" and similarly the concepts involved in describing the sense organs. It appears that all these concepts are being classified as paramattha dhammas. What about that? L. 28224 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:14pm Subject: Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Sarah, Sarah: I quoted a passage from the comy to the Satipatthana Sutta to Htoo which indicated that `necessary in all circumstances' referred to every and any state or time, including `sluggish and unbalanced' states of mind. Sukin mentioned that he's often unfocussed on the task at hand (or sth like that). This may be a problem for certain kinds of concentration as we think of it, but not for the development of satipatthana which can have any reality as object, accompanied by rt concentration at any moments of understanding and awareness. This is the meaning of `sati sampajanna', so often translated as contemplation or focussing. James: Well, either this commentary is wrong or you have misinterpreted it. Right concentration cannot be practiced at just any time and especially not during `sluggish and unbalanced' times. I could quote suttas galore about this but let me just quote from an expert on the suttas, Bhikkhu Bodhi, who translated the SN of which we are both so enamored with at the moment: "However, samadhi is only a particular kind of one-pointedness; it is not equivalent to one-pointedness in its entirety. A gourmet sitting down to a meal, an assassin about to slay his victim, a soldier on the battlefield -- these all act with a concentrated mind, but their concentration cannot be characterized as samadhi. Samadhi is exclusively wholesome one-pointedness, the concentration in a wholesome state of mind. Even then its range is still narrower: it does not signify every form of wholesome concentration, but only the intensified concentration that results from a deliberate attempt to raise the mind to a higher, more purified level of awareness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html#ch7 Right concentration only occurs during a wholesome state of mind, equanimity like I stated previously, and when there is a deliberate attempt to raise the mind to a higher and more purified level of awareness. This cannot be done while grocery shopping, brushing your teeth, or any other mundane activity, it must be done during formal sitting meditation. Really, this is just so basic to Buddhism I don't know why we keep going over it. Sarah: I think the teachings are really, really specific, but what we can understand is limited by our accumulated ignorance and wrong view. Any comment or statement of the Buddha's can and is mis- interpreted accordingly. James: Maybe, like you keep doing over this issue of meditation. Sarah: It's true as you say that rt concentration (and all good cittas) are accompanied by equanimity. However, these will also be accompanied by either neutral or pleasant feeling. There are lots of textual references to rt concentration with pleasant feeling and joy (as I was discussing with Michael). James: You are contradicting yourself, equanimity and pleasant feeling cannot arise together. When there is any pleasant feeling, then there is no more equanimity. True, the first two jhanas contain pleasant feeling but that must be overcome, abandoned, to move to the higher, last two jhanas. If one doesn't want to practice jhana meditation, then there won't ever be any pleasant feeling, only equanimity. Again I will quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi: "The kinds of concentration discussed so far arise by fixing the mind upon a single object to the exclusion of other objects. But apart from these there is another kind of concentration which does not depend upon restricting the range of awareness. This is called "momentary concentration" (khanika-samadhi). To develop momentary concentration the meditator does not deliberately attempt to exclude the multiplicity of phenomena from his field of attention. Instead, he simply directs mindfulness to the changing states of mind and body, noting any phenomenon that presents itself; the task is to maintain a continuous awareness of whatever enters the range of perception, clinging to nothing. As he goes on with his noting, concentration becomes stronger moment after moment until it becomes established one-pointedly on the constantly changing stream of events. Despite the change in the object, the mental unification remains steady, and in time acquires a force capable of suppressing the hindrances to a degree equal to that of access concentration. This fluid, mobile concentration is developed by the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness, taken up along the path of insight; when sufficiently strong it issues in the breakthrough to the last stage of the path, the arising of wisdom." This is the type of meditation (vipassana) I practice because it is what my meditation teacher taught me and it is a less `dangerous' type. Jhana meditation can have some odd side effects and clinging to blissful states if practiced without the constant supervision of an experienced teacher (Gosh, I hope Jeff isn't reading this! ;-) Regardless, Sarah, as I am understanding you, you believe that one can practice right concentration during everyday life as long as it is accompanied by pleasant feeling and joy. How is that supposed to happen? Win the lottery everyday? LOL! (just kidding). The type of pleasant feeling and joy that you are describing from the texts is a very specialized type and isn't the same as the pleasure of eating your favorite ice cream or something. Sarah: Exactly and well put! In other words, it is not the degree of concentration or the pleasant feeling which determines the good or bad states as these can accompany kusala and akusala cittas. (Hope there's a little metta for your landlady these days - it will automatically be accompanied by rt concent without any focussing or concentrating as you mena it;-)) James: You misunderstood what I wrote. What I wrote had nothing to do with the degree of concentration during pleasant feeling or otherwise, it was just an illustration to show that right concentration cannot arise during unwholesome mind states and that such unwholesome mind states are the standard of everyday life. (Sarah, the thing about my landlady was a joke! My landlady never stopped receiving metta from me. An argument doesn't mean I give less metta. I argue with you all the time and I still have metta for you! ;-))…and, BTW, it isn't automatically right concentration). Sarah: It seems this way for us all. I mean, it seems there really is a `ME' that can and must strive. But when we think like this, it is another conceptual framework or a view that this is so rather than any direct awareness as we think and speak. James: The Buddha spoke often of working diligently. Getting to Nibbana isn't a tea party! ;-) Again, you have an odd idea of non- self that arises from the fact that you don't truly know non-self. Did the Buddha realize anatta before he was enlightened? To my understanding he did not. He thought he had a self and he strived diligently all the way up to the end. It isn't wisdom to pretend to be like a Buddha or to know what a Buddha knows. It is wisdom to know what you don't know and work to know more. Sarah: It's OK, and as you've said before, there may be many different benefits for you in sitting quietly. However, when there is the trying to focus or trying to be mindful or working so hard, who is focussing and working at these times? James: I am, James Mitchell. Now you think I don't exist? I have some student loan companies I wish I could convince of that!! ;-) Sarah: That's OK.....plenty of rupas will creep up on us as we progress through SN and look at the sections on the khandhas, the elements, the sense bases and so on. I'm happy to stick to quotations from the section we're studying for these discussions;-) James: You'll stick just to the suttas, no commentaries? I'll believe it when I see it! ;-)) Sarah: I was very glad to read that you are following the Vism extracts and Qus. I think we can just leave the pace to Larry and Nina as they are the main contributors and understand each other. James: I was not suggesting that they pick up the pace! LOL! I was just expressing some concern. Yes, I read everything, but I don't agree with everything. What is the saying? "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer." Hehehe… Sarah: We can set our own pace on the SN thread and add as many or few quotes as we like. James: I wasn't aware that there was an SN thread. Please contact me off-list about what you have in mind concerning this. Metta, James 28225 From: Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:14pm Subject: tangible data and mental formations Hi Nina, I looked through all my stuff on bodily feeling and couldn't find anything to definitively support my position. Nevertheless, I have to say, in my experience, desire, aversion, and bewilderment ALWAYS arise with tangible data in the form of internal bodily sensations (with bodily feeling) and NEVER arise with only mental feeling (without tangible data). In fact, tangible data is often the most distinctive aspect of the experience. If I conceptually formulate an aversion, it doesn't seem "real" until tangible data arise. Larry 28226 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:43pm Subject: Re: moha Dear Robert, It's great to hear from you too. I just noticed that new member Philip is a Canadian living in Japan and is having some trouoble finding Theravada connections there ... > Is there any moha now? # "Now" slips by so quickly that it is difficult to discuss... Which "now" are you talking about? My day is a long sequence of akusala cittas, punctuated by an occasional arising of kusala. The Sangaha tells me that moha is a part of all these akusalas, and panya is only occasionally present in the kusala. > Are the characteristics of seeing and visble object discerned clearly, one is rupa the other nama. If not then is moha present? # I'm not sure what "discerned clearly" means. Vipassana? Not all kusala is vipassana, and not all vipassana is namarupapariccheda. I don't see how failure to see clearly a particular kind of distinction at a particular moment can be reliably taken as a manifestation of moha. So, to answer your question whether moha is present at moments when the attention is directed to something other than distinction between nama and rupa, I'd say "Sometimes yes, and sometimes no." A related question: How is moha discerned except by inference? It arises in all akusala cetasikas; but when the citta is rooted in lobha or dosa, other cetasikas (such as lobha, dosa, conceit, worry, doubt, thina-middha) are usually more visible than moha. The cittas rooted solely in moha are known via restlessness or boredom. But also, at times, restlessness may be quite clear in even lobha- and dosa-mula cittas. Isn't restlessness really just a sense of dissatisfaction with the present? Arising from (or, at times, with) that sense of dissatisfaction are the more intense cetasikas such as lobha, dosa, conceit, etc. A clear view of the cetasika restlessness, then, is a clear view of dissatisfaction, which is dukkha. > Without first discerning the nature of the realities of the present moment how can we really see ariya sacca (noble truth) such as dukkha. # Dukkha is the nature of the reality of the present moment. Certainly, if there is no understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa there can be no "discerning the nature of the realities", including the reality of "dukkha". Just imagine someone who sees dukkha in the present moment but does not discern clearly nama from rupa: "Oh, this car is just not the right color! I need a darker shade of green. ... What do you mean you can't get it for me? Get #$%@ the manager. I want to give him a piece of my mind!!" He sees the akusala citta and the suffering as a rupa. Change the visual object to green, and, Voila!, no more suffering. Ho, ho, ho! --> A simple example of an error that stems from the confusing of nama and rupa. The dukkha of the ariya sacca is not material suffering and the solution to suffering is not attaining more pleasant physical conditions: Namarupapariccheda in daily life. > So moha and lobha are so common and obscure reality. There is almost always running among concepts and moha is one of the prime causes of this. I would agree that there is almost always running among concepts. This is characteristic of what we call "human life," and someone who does not run among concepts would have to be called "non-functional" and certainly NOT "Arahant." Robert, I'm not convinced that moha is a cause of running among concepts at all. It is unavoidable that there is almost always running among concepts. The questions is whether the attention paid to them is yoniso or ayoniso. Dan 28227 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] moha Dear Eddie Lou, I think you are right about our limited abilities to see things as they really are and that this weakness has a heavy impact. It is not clear from what you say, though, how this limited ability drives the cycle of rebirths. Could you say more about what you see as the connection between moha and the cycle of rebirth? And in what way moha could possibly drive this cycle? It makes sense to me that if moha drives the rebirth cycle and dukkha as you say and that if wisdom dispells moha (as you imply), then development of wisdom would lead to reduction of dukkha. I still have some questions, though, is it solely moha that drives the cycle? If not, then how does wisdom work on these other drivers? Dan 28228 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:49pm Subject: Re: "Doing" Abhidhamma Dear Howard, I think your comments are right on target. Abhidhamma studies is a form of meditation. It can be done with right effort or wrong effort, right concentration or wrong concentration, right understanding or wrong understanding -- much like a "formal meditation", sitting quietly, eyes closed, legs crossed, following instructions given by a Goenka or Mahasi. Abhidhamma studies, like any meditation practice, has many potential benefits (as you describe), but also bears a number of dangers, such as craving for knowledge, attachment to intellectual constructs, conceit about knowing a lot of Pali and intricate details about texts. One advantage of Abhidhamma studies as a practice is that the voice of the master is never far away -- so much constant guidance. When sitting quietly in a corner, eyes closed, legs crossed, the voice of lobha is never far away; and lobha is a very accomplished and convincing teacher, alluring and relentless. Dan 28229 From: Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye Door, Ear Door, and Rupas Galore Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/23/03 3:28:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > do you refer to the text of the Dhammasangani, and this in English? The > transl has very, very unclear words at times. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, it's terrible. I've already thought more than once how unfair it actually is to the Abhidhamma for there not to be a first-class translation of all 7 books into English, French etc. I'm surprised that there have been no attempts at collecting dana for the purpose of supporting such an endeavor. ------------------------------------------------ We would have to go over it> > again and put it straight. Like representative intellection, ideation, etc. > When I know the Pali I do not mind what words are used. I guess I have to > order the Pali. Icaro only likes the Pali and Sarah and I may discuss it > with him in Febr. when he is back here. Anyway, it is all about realities to > be verified at this moment, no matter what words are used. If we keep this > constantly in mind, we won't get lost, I assure you. A lot more to discover! > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I constantly keep myself open to the possibility of seeing that it is all completely fine. I don't expect to be persuaded of this, but I don't forclose the possibility. ------------------------------------------------ > Meanwhile I collected a great many topics from your posts, but I have to > come back later, one at a time. Some work waiting for me! > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Sorry! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- > Nina. > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28230 From: Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, sex faculty. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/23/03 2:01:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > N: I would like to stress to all: this is *not* a treatise on sexuology. Of > course girls also like to play with little cars, nowadays the dressing of > hair, wearing cloths may be the same for boys and girls, etc. Think of > emancipation, the equality of sexes, not to be denied. But, let us see what > the intention of the commentators is. This is one way of breaking down the > idea of "My important personality." I try to learn from this whole passage, > even if the examples may seem too simplified or too general. Remember these > are only illustrations, and the commentator speaks in a general sense. Of > course there are exceptions. The Expositor also says, taking long strides, etc., folk say 'she walks like a man'. >Thus, he knows > he is speaking in a general way. > What can I learn? There are many different types of conditions for the way I > behave, walk, stand, move about in daily life, my voice, speech, etc. One of > these conditions is the sex faculty. To me this is a very good reminder not > to take my way of behaviour for self. It is beneficial to know how much sex > influences our daily life. These are not mystical, magical unseen hidden > causes. The Abhidhamma helps us to analyse these conditions. It supports and > refers to satipatthana all the time: seeing the body in the body, not the > self in the body. > Lodewijk also said how much it is beyond control to be born male or female, > and how much this influences our whole life. The Expositor also says that > born a woman is a weaker vipaka. True, we are weaker, and for those who have > a profession there is discrimination agains women. We also find this in the > suttanta, but, the Buddha said, both men and women can become arahats if > wisdom is developed. No difference in respect to this. So, I know what I > have to do! > Nina. > > ============================ The problem I have with a rupa of feminity or masculinity is a problem with a single rupic condition (of varying degrees/strengths) that is responsible for sexual characteristics. This just makes no sense to me. Sexual characteristics are determined by genes and other biological structures, pa~n~natti all. That there may be an inclination (sankharic) to be born male or to be born female is something that seems plausible to me (and is born out by various Buddhist tales of rebirth), but the idea of a rupa of femininity that arises from time to time, like pleasantness and odors and sounds arise is simply a piece of nonsense to me. The same is the case for me with a "life force" rupa and with a "nutrition" rupa. What does it mean for an organism to die? The life force leaves it? That is primitive nonsense for which there is NO evidence. Nutrition is the general concept of food/physical sustenance. This is not a rupa nor a category of rupas. This is pa~n~natti, pure and simple. Do foods exist? Sure, in the same way as all conventional objects exist, but not as paramattha dhammas. The Abhidhammic treatment of physical sense doors also lies in this problem area. When a particular complex aggregate of conditions arise, there occurs the ability to see. That conditioned arising of the ability to see is the "opening (or activation) of the eye door," with the capacity to see being the eye-door rupa. The other four physical sense doors are similar. They are physical capacities/abilities. But this is NOT the Abhidhammic position. Nina, we are discussing what I believe to be the very weakest elements of Abhidhamma, and it will take a LOT for me to come to think that there is any validity to these notions as given there. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28231 From: Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tangible data and mental formations Hi, Larry - In a message dated 12/23/03 7:16:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > I looked through all my stuff on bodily feeling and couldn't find > anything to definitively support my position. Nevertheless, I have to > say, in my experience, desire, aversion, and bewilderment ALWAYS arise > with tangible data in the form of internal bodily sensations (with > bodily feeling) and NEVER arise with only mental feeling (without > tangible data). In fact, tangible data is often the most distinctive > aspect of the experience. If I conceptually formulate an aversion, it > doesn't seem "real" until tangible data arise. > > Larry > ============================= I'm not clear on what you are saying. Do you mean that pleasantness, unpleasantness, and neutral feeling only occur with an object that is a bodily sensation? Are you saying that it is exactly bodily sensations that are the objects felt as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral? This seems to be Goenka's position,BTW. It is *not* the Abhidhamma position, of course, which is that *every* mindstate has a vedanic taste. However, I could imagine as true that a mindstate with an object that is a so-called "pleasant object" could actually be ve dana-free, but will then lead to a subsequent mindstate in which the object is a physical sensation that is felt as pleasant. In a sense, the prior object was a "pleasant one" because its occurrence inevitably led to a pleasant sensation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28232 From: Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tangible data and mental formations Howard: "I'm not clear on what you are saying. Do you mean that pleasantness, unpleasantness, and neutral feeling only occur with an object that is a bodily sensation?" Hi Howard, Pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral bodily feeling only occur with rupa. Another interpretation is that pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral bodily feeling only occur with tangible data. Therefore they only arise with vipaka citta as object (according to Nina). Pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral mental feeling can arise with either nama or rupa as object. However, it is my experience that tangible data arises with mental formations. When I am angry I "feel" angry. That "feeling" is tangible data, a rupa. Often, I can only define my emotion (mental formation) by deciphering the tangible data. The actual feeling (vedana) is really too elusive to catch or analyze (for me). Larry 28233 From: dhammasaro Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:59pm Subject: Sentient Being Howdy, Happy holidays to all. Four questions: 1. Is/are there Pali words for "sentient being(s)"; 2. Does the Tipitaka use the words; 3. If yes, where; and 4. If yes, what do the words mean? metta, Chuck 28234 From: Jeffrey S. Brooks Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 7:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hello Sarah, please see my comments below --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > Thanks for replying, I never mind how long it takes. I appreciate it. > > I'm glad to hear you're feeling so happy and content. What do you mean by > practicing `moment-to-moment mindfulness'? (pls don't consider any > questioning and clarifying as unfriendly in any way, Jeff.) > .... %%%%%%%% Jeff: moment-to-moment mindfulness, as I use the term is attentive awareness of every activity, no mstter how trivial, as in the Satipatthana Sutta MN 10 3. Awareness with Clear Comprehension And further, monks, an aspirant, in going forward and back, applies clear comprehension; in looking straight on and looking away, one applies clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, one applies clear comprehension; in wearing robes and carrying the bowl, one applies clear comprehension; in eating, drinking, chewing and savoring, one applies clear comprehension; in walking, in standing, in sitting, in falling asleep, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, one applies clear comprehension. Thus one lives contemplating the body in the body... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn010b.html %%%%%%%% > .... > OK, thanks. I think there are different kinds of `awareness',as the term > is used, and they are not necessarily all wholesome. Awareness of auras > and chakras can be very, very useful,especially for healing etc, but it > doesn't have anything to do with awareness as in satipatthana as I > understand. It's not necessary to have ever heard the Buddha's teachings > for this, whereas those who have developed satipatthana may have no > awareness of auras. > .... %%%%%%%% Jeff: Moment-to-moment mindfulness to me means everything, even if aurus and chakras enter ones awareness domain. %%%%%%%% > ..... > I'm also doubtful that we use terms like `4th jhana' in the same way at > all. > ..... > > As for the "I" when I refer to myself, this is a language that is > > based on self references I use it in much the same way you use the > > term. I speak of this one, who is typing this message to you, that > > one who will be reading it. But, I know that this is not me, I am not > > this, and this is not mine. > ..... > I'm glad to hear it. As we discuss quite often here, ideas of self can > creep in often whenever there is an idea of doing something in particular > in order to have more awareness with an idea that 'we' can do it, for > example. > > I also read your other post `jhana is ecstasy' with interest, Jeff. I > appreciated your definitions and references. I don't believe I've seen a > single post on DSG in which `jhana' is `regarded as a dirty word', but > perhaps you meant elsewhere. You're welcome to try and find one here;-). > > You mention that ecstasy is used to describe the experience of > enlightenment, but of course as you know, jhana is not any enlightenment. > You refer in your quotes to `pleasure (bliss)'. This would refer to sukha > and piti, I believe, sometimes translated as bliss or pleasant feeling > (sukha) and joy or rapture (piti). The difficulty is, I think, that we > assume these states are wholesome when they arise, but usually they're > unwholesome sukha and piti accompanying attachment. Indeed all kinds of > attachment, accompanied by pleasant feeling are also accompanied by piti > and these are stronger or more intense than other kinds of attachment. > This piti with attachment is also delighted or blissed by the object, such > as music or nature or a special experience. > > So,to get to the point, I don't think you differentiate in your various > definitions between wholesome bliss - sukha and piti and the unwholesome > kinds. How do you know that the bliss you are describing is wholesome? > Similarly with absorption, trance and so on? At this moment is there any > knowledge or awareness of whether the pleasant feeling or joy is wholesome > or unwholesome? > > I'll appreciate any further clarifications. > > With metta, > > Sarah. > ====== Interesting questions Sarah however you assume there is an unwholesome bliss or jhana, or absorption. There isn't one, because otherwise it would not be jhana. If you recall the 4 Noble Truths, suffering (dukkha) caused be grasping and aversion. The pleasant abiding in the here and now the Buddha spoke of was jhana. Therefore one does not get jhana with grasping and aversion. One gets suffering. Best to you, Jeff Brooks 28235 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminders [ho ho ho] Hi Azita, Nina, Ken H & All, > > The Early Teachers [cited at Vism XI,23] > > > > The pleasant drink, the pleasant food, > > Hard, soft, whatever it may be: > > Through one door it is loaded in, > > Through nine it trickles out again. .... I was considering presenting this on a card to my brother and niece when they arrive in a couple of days with a view to encouragement of simple living while they’re here in Hong Kong, but decided my akusala motives, i.e wishing for a simple life myself, would definitely be predominating;-( Whilst Jon is happy to mainly live on plain congee* with lots of encouragement from Dr Ma, my brother has been hearing various wild reports from his Chinese students in England about the various delicacies and banquets in Hong Kong. Worse still, I had instructed them to just bring hiking and swim gear so we could avoid the crowds and take off to remote beaches (I mean, if 10c minimum is warm enough for us, you’d think it would be the equivalent of a fine summer’s day for those arriving from Manchester via Moscow, wouldn’t you?). Anyway, meanwhile those Manchester students have been spilling the beans about shopping orgies and bargains over the border in Shenzhen, waxing lyrical about the adrenalin rush from feeling like a squashed fly on the trains to get there and so on. Result: they now want to do the lot -- hikes, beaches AND chinese meals,shopping and whatever else they've been told about-- and I’m going to have precious little time on list during these two weeks. Oh well, family;-) So I’m also looking for volunteers to carry my many batons;-) KenH, you could be busy. Mike, hope we can tempt you out of the woodwork. Dan, very good to see you around in your usual great style, (Best wishes to Lisa). Everyone else, pls keep up all the stimulating discussions and apologies to James, Herman, Howard, Jeff and anyone else for even slower turn around times than usual -- your posts always deserve and require more than a quick one-liner. I’ll get back on any threads as and when I can. Metta, Sarah * congee (discussed before), the ‘soft food’, is rice gruel, common in Asia made from cooking plain rice (preferably brown) until it’s very soft and soupy. KenH, we now use a small congee crockpot which can be left on overnight and gets the best consistency. Nina, this morning Dr Ma was commenting on a marked improvement in a particular condition of Jon’s and saying how helpful congee is as a ‘cooler’ for any disorders of the bladder, rectum, prostate etc, neutralizing inflammation. For special celebrations, we use a 5 grains mixture;-) Hmm, I think I’ll take my brother to see Dr Ma, firmly on our visitor hotspots map as Christine and B.Bodhi will recall;-) To remind everyone that we are acting on good authority, let me quote from Jon’s earlier message: ***** “Here is the passage I (and probably you also)had in mind, from the commentary to the Sammannaphala Sutta (D. 2), from Bh. Bodhi's translation 'The Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship'(BPS), p. 103: "And such bhikkhus in the Buddha's dispensation who have aroused insight and attained arahatship after drinking congee cannot be counted. In the island of Sri Lanka alone, in the sitting halls of various villages there is not even a single seat where a bhikkhu did not attain arahatship after drinking congee." Just before that, it gives some background to this phenomenon. Apparently among the monks who were in the habit of developing samatha there were some who were overcome by a condition described as 'kamma-born heat element' while doing the early morning domestic chores at the monastery. Drinking a morning cup of congee brought welcome relief from this condition, and was a condition for the furtherance of both samatha and vipassana bhavana. As before, p.102: "Another bhikkhu performs the aforesaid duties early in the morning. While he is doing so, the kamma-born heat element blazes up and burns his stomach. Sweat pours forth from his body and he cannot keep track of his meditation subject [since one whose body is afflicted with hunger cannot concentrate well]. … Receiving some congee, he goes to the sitting hall and drinks it. As soon as he has swallowed two or three mouthfuls, the kamma-born heat element lets go of the stomach and grasps the ingested food. Like a man who has bathed with a hundred buckets of water, the burning of the heat element is extinguished." Jon (Congee for breakfast... Hmm .. I'll try anything!) ***** ..and I know we’d pass the simple living test on this score;-) Metta, Sarah (just back from a turkey & trimmings lunch.....yum.....;-)) ====== 28236 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 0:13am Subject: Re: Sentient Being Hello Chuck, and all, The Pali Text Society Pali-English dictionary contains the following definition. The places where the Pali term is used in the Tipitika are listed within the entry below. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Satta2 (p. 673) [cp, Vedic sattva living being, satvan "strong man, warrior," fr. sant] 1. (m.) a living being, creature, a sentient & rational being, a person D I.17, 34, 53, 82; II.68; A I.35 sq., 55 sq.; S I.135; V.41; Vin I.5; Miln 273; Vism 310 (defn: "rup'adisu khandhesu chandaragena satta visatta ti satta," thus=satta1); Nett 161; DA I.51, 161; VbhA 144. --naraka° a being in purgatory (cp. niraya°) Vism 500. -- 2. (nt.) soul (=jivita or vinnana) Pv I.81 (gata°=vigata--jivita PvA 40). <-> 3. (nt.) substance Vin I.287. nissatta non--substantial, phenomenal DhsA 38. nn--avasa abode of sentient beings (see nava1 2) D III.263, 268; A V.53; Vism 552; VbhA 168. --ussada (see ussada 4) teeming with life, full of people D I.87, 111, 131. --loka the world of living creatures SnA 263, 442; Vism 205. See also sankhara--loka. --vanijja slave trade DA I.235=A III.208 (C.: manussa--vikkaya). --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dhammasaro" wrote: > Howdy, > > Happy holidays to all. > > Four questions: > > 1. Is/are there Pali words for "sentient being(s)"; > > 2. Does the Tipitaka use the words; > > 3. If yes, where; and > > 4. If yes, what do the words mean? > > metta, > > Chuck 28237 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 0:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] hshsing / Buddists' belief Dear Hshsing and Thomas. Hshsing, welcome to DSG*. I hope you’ll tell us a little more about yourself. Thomas, I liked your reply to Hshing’s Qus very much. You wrote: T: >if you mean prayers where one asks for example "Please Buddha, help me with my sickness." then such a thing is sometimes common, but is understood by ven. masters as nonsense practice. Noone will answer such a prayer. Buddhists believe not in an all-powerful God. The gods and heavely beings dwell in the respective heaven and god realms, but they are not there to help us with wonderus deeds.< .... S: ;-) Like you suggest, we need to know our motives and beliefs at these times. .... T: >However, there are plenty bodhisattva beings in this world who help beings on the right path with a sincere heart and good motivation. We don't have to pray to them for help, they know what is going on.< .... S: I understand we use different wording and from a Theravada point of view, we’d just say there are many good friends to help us along. More important, we can learn to be a good friend to help others along when they are in need or request our assistance. .... T: >Buddhist prayers are most often wish prayers for the good of OTHERS, not for oneself. Like the common prayer "May beings be happy, be healthy, live in peace and become enlightened sooner." Such prayers have great powers, and they are often used in combination with individual vows. You can make your own prayer, and your own vows, noone urges you to repeat anything. You have your own qualities and know best, how to help other beings. .... S: This is beautifully put and I fully agree (it does occasionally happen on DSG;-)). Wishing well for OTHERS as you say, making your own prayers and so on without any need to repeat. “You have your own qualities and know best, how to help other beings”. I can’t help repeating it again. Metta and Gassho to you both, Sarah *Hshsing, to aid communication here, we ask everyone on DSG to make it clear whom they are addressing, even if it’s ‘All’ and to sign off each post with a (preferably real) name we can address you by. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/DSG_Guide_Lines ===== 28238 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sounds - heard and unheard Hi Herman, Try as I might, I find nothing to disagree with in what you write here -- though I'd say these are 3 correct statements about rupas rather than differences in definition: --- Egberdina wrote: 1.> Is there sensation when the cause for sensation is there, but no > sensing apparatus ie consciousness? 2.> Is there sensation when the cause for sensation is there, and > consciousness? 3.> Is there sensation when the cause for sensation is there, and > consciousness as well as consciousness of consciousness? > > For me it is clear that there is sensation without the awareness of > sensation, giving my reactivity to things flying into my eyes whilst > occupied with refuting a heretic on the Net, or thunderclaps in the > middle of the night. .... Yes! .... > There are no correct definitions, and when everyone agrees to a > common definition there are no discussions. I say Vive la > difference!!! .... Yes again! (it must be Xmas cheer or something like that;-)) Best wishes and Happy Holidays to Vicki and the boys too Metta, Sarah p.s The story you told about the anxiety and panic when Vicki was a couple of hours late, only to be reminded later of what you'd been reminded of earlier, was a very familiar one to me too.....;-) ===================================================== 28239 From: ukvegans Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:32am Subject: Any thoughts ... Hi All, It is said that Hindus believe that Buddha was the 9th re-incarnation of Vishnu, and that buddha reached enlightenment by practising the eight limbs of yoga. Buddha was a great yoga teacher, and it was many years after his death that the religion of buddhism was created. Any comment on these statements ... ? peace & light, Alan 28240 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi Larry (& James), --- Larry wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Excellent sutta reference. Just what I was looking for. What is > equanimity here? The perceiving consciousness itself, i.e. panna? .... Glad it was useful. Equanimity= upekkha* (aka tatramajjhattata cetasika) Equanimity or evenmindedness accompanies all kusala cittas. Nina writes in ‘Cetasikas’: http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas32.html “Equanimity, evenmindedness or balance of mind (in Pali : tatramajjhattata), is one of the nineteen sobhana[beautiful]cetasikas which accompany each sobhana citta. It is not easy to know the characteristic of equanimity. We may think that there is equanimity whenever there is neither like nor dislike of what we see, hear or experience through the other senses, but at such moments there may be ignorance instead of equanimity. We may confuse equanimity and indifferent feeling, but these are different cetasikas; equanimity is not feeling, the cetasika which is vedana. The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 153) states about equanimity : It has the characteristic of conveying citta and cetasikas evenly. Its function is to prevent deficiency and excess, or its function is to inhibit partiality. It is manifested as neutrality. It should be regarded as like a conductor (driver) who looks on with equanimity on thoroughbreds progressing evenly.” ..... > As for the disadvantages of blindness and deafness, or other > disabilities, I am sure they are challenging but certainly no reason > to commit suicide or even be down in the dumps all the time. I am > sure there are many reasonably happy and well adjusted disabled > people. .... I agree and I should stress that the old man on the boat and the deaf kids I’ve known have all been very cheery. My point was just that it would be wrong to consider the disability as having any advantage on the path. .... >What I was fishing for is a textual reference to the idea > that a disabled person can't realize nibbana. I have read this > somewhere and I was wondering, why not? .... I know what you are referring to. When we studied ADL, we read about different kinds of patisandhi citta (re-birth consciousness) and about those born with ‘ahetuka patisandhi citta’ who are born ‘handicapped’. This means the patisandhi citta (result of kamma) is not accompanied by the sobhana roots and there are various defects which may include eye-sense and ear-sense. Of course, if someone develops a defect during life, it is different and even if the blindness or deafness were apparent from birth, we could never be sure it was from the first moment of life. One of my deaf students became deaf during birth for example, which is different (and then the deafness was say 90% - seldom 100%). I think common-sense applies in this areas. Some with extreme disabilities would never be able to develop panna to become enlightened in this lifetime. Obviously this wouldn’t apply to most blind, deaf or other disabled people with otherwise just the usual worldling ignorance and wrong view;-) Metta, Sarah * upekkha also used to refer to indifferent feeling. (I think this is where there is some mis-communication with James). Indifferent feeling can arise with kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya cittas. When we don’t notice our feelings, they’re usually indifferent, such as with moments of seeing or hearing or with ignorance or with attachment even. We look up at the screen, touch the keyboard with indifferent feeling. There’s bound to be attachment too, even though there’s no excitement about it. Same with some moments of kusala - they are accompanied by indifferent or pleasant feeling. To confuse further, upekkha also refers to the brahma vihara of equanimity which always has other beings as object. Vism 1X, 96 “Equanimity is characterized as promoting the aspect of neutrality towards beings....” Ignorance is the near enemy. More in the chapter in ‘Cetasikas’. (I realize there's quite a lot of Pali and detail here. James, pls say if you'd like it broken down further and either I'll be glad to later or someone else will help in the meantime.) ************* 28241 From: nordwest Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Any thoughts ... I'm not sure, the Buddha told stories of 500 former life times to his disciples. Would this work, if he would have been Vishnu? -- I have not enough knowledge about Hinduism... just a thought... Thomas ukvegans wrote: Hi All, It is said that Hindus believe that Buddha was the 9th re-incarnation of Vishnu, and that buddha reached enlightenment by practising the eight limbs of yoga. Buddha was a great yoga teacher, and it was many years after his death that the religion of buddhism was created. 28242 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:39am Subject: Re: moha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Robert, > It's great to hear from you too. I just noticed that new member > Philip is a Canadian living in Japan and is having some trouoble > finding Theravada connections there ... =========== Hi Dan, Yes, I just saw that post. I met bruce (old member ) 3 years ago in Osaka once so maybe in the future Phillip and I can get together. ========== > > # Dukkha is the nature of the reality of the present moment. > Certainly, if there is no understanding of the distinction between > nama and rupa there can be no "discerning the nature of the > realities", including the reality of "dukkha". Just imagine someone > who sees dukkha in the present moment but does not discern clearly > nama from rupa: "Oh, this car is just not the right color! I need a > darker shade of green. ... What do you mean you can't get it for me? > Get #$%@ the manager. I want to give him a piece of my mind!!" He > sees the akusala citta and the suffering as a rupa. Change the visual > object to green, and, Voila!, no more suffering. Ho, ho, ho! --> A > simple example of an error that stems from the confusing of nama and > rupa. The dukkha of the ariya sacca is not material suffering and the > solution to suffering is not attaining more pleasant physical > conditions: Namarupapariccheda in daily life. ============== Yes, very good. ================= > > > So moha and lobha are so common and obscure reality. There is > almost always running among concepts and moha is one of the prime > causes of this. > > I would agree that there is almost always running among concepts. > This is characteristic of what we call "human life," and someone who > does not run among concepts would have to be called "non- functional" > and certainly NOT "Arahant." > > Robert, I'm not convinced that moha is a cause of running among > concepts at all. It is unavoidable that there is almost always > running among concepts. The questions is whether the attention paid > to them is yoniso or ayoniso. ================ yes, I was a too brief. Of course arahnants still have concepts occuring so often. The difference is that they penetrate realities too and are confused about neither. The 'uninstructed wordling' is unaware of realities and takes concepts to be real: some even deny realities. The Udanaatthakatha (trans. masefield p.878)Blind from birth chapter:"since they do not know Dhamma, they do not know that which is not Dhamma either. ....... they neither know dhamma to be a thing having an own nature (sabhava), nor do they know that which is not dhamma to be a thing lacking an own nature.(Dhammam sabhavadhammam..adhammam asabhavadhammam) And as such they declare a thing having an own nature as though it were a thing lacking an own nature....""endquote What I was meaning - and as you have clarified very well- is this: (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter) "it is ignorance since it causes beings to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it is ignorance since it darts among those things which do not actually exist [i.e.men, women] and since it does not dart among those things that do exist [i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas]." BTW this is a nice turn of phrase, Dan: "One advantage of Abhidhamma studies as a practice is that the voice of the master is never far away -- so much constant guidance" Robk 28243 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Howard, Just a quick clarification for now: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > SN = Samyutta Nikaya? Or SN = Sutta Nipata? (I own each, in any > case.) > ---------------------------------------------- SN = Samyutta Nikaya aka Kindred Sayings (PTS) or Connected Discourses (B.Bodhi, Wisdom). I believe SN or S are the standard abbreviations and Sn is the standard one for Sutta Nipata. I agree it's confusing and I was being lazy on this. Devatasamyutta which James and I have been quoting from, is the first chapter of the first section or book (Sagathavagga - Book of Verses) of SN. I'm glad you have a copy. Time to take it off the shelf and give it a dust ready for the New Year along with Visuddhimagga and Dhammasangani;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 28244 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Larry (& James), > (I realize there's quite a lot of Pali and detail here. James, pls say if you'd like it broken down further and either I'll be glad to later or someone else will help in the meantime.) > ************* Hi Sarah, Sarah: (I realize there's quite a lot of Pali and detail here. James, pls say if you'd like it broken down further and either I'll be glad to later or someone else will help in the meantime.) James: No thank you. I can understand it just fine. I agree with the general idea that Nina conveys in her book about equanimity (except it being a cetasika). If find the metaphor from the Vism quite useless, "It should be regarded as like a conductor (driver) who looks on with equanimity on thoroughbreds progressing evenly." Using the term equanimity to define equanimity is asinine, and I really don't think that any driver of horses is going to have equanimity when he observes them progressing evenly. This is a very poor metaphor in my estimation. I believe that I have been using this term correctly; I believe that you are the one mistaken in its use. Never did I believe that equanimity was defined as a `neutral or indifferent feeling' nor did I state as such. I have consistently contended that equanimity is the absence of feeling. You are the one, I believe, who has stated that equanimity can be present during various feelings and reactions to various stimuli. You wrote: It's true as you say that rt concentration (and all good cittas) are accompanied by equanimity. However, these will also be accompanied by either neutral or pleasant feeling. There are lots of textual references to rt concentration with pleasant feeling and joy (as I was discussing with Michael). I replied: You are contradicting yourself, equanimity and pleasant feeling cannot arise together. When there is any pleasant feeling, then there is no more equanimity. [Note: I would have included your previous use of `neutral feeling' in this sentence but I wanted to focus on the bliss of jhanas, which you focus on.] I believe I understand the term correctly. If you or anyone believes I am mistaken, I would welcome them to say so. I hope that you have a good time with your visiting family. Don't concern yourself with getting back to me quickly. Metta, James 28245 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:17am Subject: anapana sati 8 c anapana sati 8 c As Jon said, And also: I would add:the bhikkhus the sutta was addressed to were highly adept, they were arahats or they had accumulations to attain arahatship. We read even after the first tetrad in the Visuddhimagga: We also read in the Vis. VIII, 155: **** Nina. 28246 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, sex faculty. Hi Howard, op 24-12-2003 03:45 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ============================ > The problem I have with a rupa of feminity or masculinity is a problem > with a single rupic condition (of varying degrees/strengths) that is > responsible for sexual characteristics. This just makes no sense to me. Sexual > characteristics are determined by genes and other biological structures, > pa~n~natti > all. N: It is not helpful to compare rupa-dhammas with genes, etc. Different fields, different goals. H: That there may be an inclination (sankharic) to be born male or to be > born > female is something that seems plausible to me (and is born out by various > Buddhist tales of rebirth), but the idea of a rupa of femininity that arises > from time to time, like pleasantness and odors and sounds arise is simply a > piece > of nonsense to me. N: It does not arise from time to time but all the time, in a group of rupas. Some groups are produced by kamma, some by citta, some by temperature and some by nutrition. So long as these conditions are present, rupas that have fallen away are replaced. I cannot give you mathematical proofs, I can only try to give some additional explanations for those who like details. Not everybody likes subcommentaries and so many details, it depends on the individual, no problem at all. I like details, I like reading the Tiika texts and try to translate just for a few people who may be interested, that is all. H: The same is the case for me with a "life force" rupa and with a "nutrition" rupa. What does it mean for an organism to die? The life force leaves it? That is primitive nonsense for which there is NO evidence. N: I understand your point. Without life-faculty you would be dead, like a log. At death kamma stops producing life-faculty. It stops also producing the heartbase. H: Nutrition is the general concept of food/physical sustenance. This is not a rupa nor a category of rupas. This is pa~n~natti, pure and simple. Do foods exist? Sure, in the > same way as all conventional objects exist, but not as paramattha dhammas. N: It is a rupa what else. It is also one of the four factors that produces other rupas. When Larry gets to it I can give more explanations, but only suitable for those who like details. H: The Abhidhammic treatment of physical sense doors also lies in this > problem area. When a particular complex aggregate of conditions arise, there > occurs the ability to see. That conditioned arising of the ability to see is > the > "opening (or activation) of the eye door," with the capacity to see being the > eye-door rupa. The other four physical sense doors are similar. They are > physical capacities/abilities. But this is NOT the Abhidhammic position. N: Yes, it is also in the Suttanta,(many suttas on doorways, and also we have to know , we have to know them all in the end. Thus, it is pure Abhidhamma we also find in the sutta. For this subject we would have to go to the Dhammasangani, with those difficult translated words. If you have some concrete texts you are interested in I am glad to help out if I can. But a little at a time, since I should spend time now on the latent tendencies. H: Nina, we are discussing what I believe to be the very weakest elements > of Abhidhamma, and it will take a LOT for me to come to think that there is > any validity to these notions as given there. N: I understand, it does not matter at all. It is best if you just study what you like to study, that is the natural course. Some people become irritated by details, and it is of no use to continue then. Nina. 28247 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:17am Subject: FW: [Pali] profitable craving Dear Sarah, I looked again at Co Netti which I could not read long ago, but now I can read it. It is very good. Here is frwd what I wrote about this subject: Dear John, I am sorry, the thorn sutta( A. V, 135) is not about craving for arahatship. But I was thinking more about craving that is profitable: Netti: 87 and its Co. Netti (The Guide, transl by Ven. Nyanamoli) states: And Netti, 508: This brings us to M. 137, explaining about sorrow connected with renunciation and how this sorrow arises as a result of desire. But first the Tiika to the Netti: I only had a quick glance and will study it later on more in detail: it elaborates that akusala tanhaa does not lead to the end of the cycle, but that pahaana tanhaa does. As to kusala tanhaa, it mentions that this is a category of teaching (desana haara). It then gives a key: it has become upanissaya paccaya: strong dependence-condition. In the Abhidhamma, the Patthana, it is explained under natural strong dependence-condition, pakatupanissaya paccaya, that kusala can condition kusala, but also that akusala can condition kusala. Because of aversion towards akusala vipaaka or attachment to kusala vipaaka one may perform good deeds. One may regret the akusala one performed and to counteract it one performs kusala. We read (Pa.t.thaana, Faultless Triplet VII, Investigation Ch, Conditions, Positive, § 423, V): Thus, tanhaa is lobha cetasika, it is akusala, but, it can be a condition for attaining arahatship, and as such it can be called profitable. In order to attain arahatship it must be object of insight. The Commentary to M. 137: As to six joys connected with worldly life (gehatani), these are based on the kaamagu.na: sensepleasures. As to six joys connected with renunciation: these are dependent on vipassana. (In the sutta is explained about the three characteristics). Six sorrows connected with worldly life are described in the Sutta. As to those connected with renunciation: domanassa arises in the person who desires for arahatship. He does not develop vipassana further, by seeing impermanence etc. , so that he can attain arahatship. An example is given of Mahaa-Siiva who cried and was full of sorrow because he could not attain arahatship this fortnight, this month, this year. Nina. op 21-12-2003 02:54 schreef John Kelly op palistudent@y...: > Does anyone know where in the Pali canon there is a > simile about removing a thorn with a thorn then > throwing both thorns away? This is in reference to > craving for Arahatship helps motivate one to attain > Arahatship, and so end all craving. > 28248 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] tangible data and mental formations Hi Larry, op 24-12-2003 01:14 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I have to > say, in my experience, desire, aversion, and bewilderment ALWAYS arise > with tangible data in the form of internal bodily sensations (with > bodily feeling) and NEVER arise with only mental feeling (without > tangible data). In fact, tangible data is often the most distinctive > aspect of the experience. If I conceptually formulate an aversion, it > doesn't seem "real" until tangible data arise. N: There is not only bodyconsciousness and tangible data in the world, there is so much more. We read in the M. 137, The Analysis of the Sixfold, about six internal sensefields: the eye, the ear (by the way, all this is Abhidhamma in the sutta), the external sensefields: visible object, etc, the six classes of consciousness, six classes of contact, eighteen feelings on account of the six classes of objects: joy, sorrow, equanimity. It seems that there is the experience of tangible data all the time, but in reality they are interspersed with all other kinds of dhammas. Of course, desire, aversion, and bewilderment can condition tangible data in their turn, but these are not the only dhammas that arise and appear. What about seeing or hearing? You wrote to Howard:L: That "feeling" is tangible data, a rupa. Often, I can only define my emotion (mental formation) by deciphering the tangible data. The actual feeling (vedana) is really too elusive to catch or analyze (for me). N: Feeling experiences, it is nama, not rupa. Of course we cannot catch it, we cannot catch any dhamma. It is gone immediately. When sati arises (provided there are the right conditions for it) it can be aware of dhammas and thus, gradually nama and rupa can be understood. Sati and panna are much faster than you or me! Nina. 28249 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Any thoughts : To Alan and Thomas Dear Alan, Thomas and all How are you? As Thomas wrote, Gotama the Buddha had undergone countless previous lives of all kinds - including animals. This cycle of death and rebirth is called Samsaaro, as you already know. By the way, in line with the teaching of selflessness (anattakathaa), the term "rebirth" is better in the context of Buddhism than the term "reincarnation". As Hindus believe in unchanging self (attaa), the term "reincarnation" may suit their background belief. The whole purpose of the Buddha's teachings is to help us break ourselves free from Samsaaro. The Buddha discovered how to end his own Samsaaro, and taught others to do likewise. That is to say, he can no longer be reborn. In other words, Gotama the Buddha has successfully terminated his sentient emergence. But, Vishnu, if he existed at all, does not seem to want to end his Samsaaro. That is to say, he might well be somewhere in the world of Samsaaro. Alan should check with his Hindu gurus about the fate and whereabouts of Vishnu. Alan also wrote, perhaps echoing Hindu teachers: "Buddha was a great yoga teacher, and it was many years after his death that the religion of buddhism was created." The above statement was wrong and unfair. We can't reduce the Buddha to even the level of an ordinary Arahant, despite Arahantship being the final goal of the Buddha's tachings. Therefore, reducing the Buddha to the level of a great yoga teacher was wrong and unfair. It is worth remembering that the Hindu Yoga, due to its belief in eternal self, does not lead to the level of a Stream-insider (Sotaapanno), the first-stage attainment of awakening or enlightenment (bodhi) which requires eradication of self-view (belief in an individual self and/or a cosmic Self, usually the equivalent of the Creator). The religion of Buddhism, if it meant Saasanaa or the Turning of Dhamma Wheel, began with the First Discourse (Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam) of the Buddha that taught the Four Noble Truths to the Five Ascetics, the former attendants of the Buddha. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: I'm not sure, the Buddha told stories of 500 former life times to his disciples. Would this work, if he would have been Vishnu? -- I have not enough knowledge about Hinduism... just a thought... Thomas ukvegans wrote: Hi All, It is said that Hindus believe that Buddha was the 9th re-incarnation of Vishnu, and that buddha reached enlightenment by practising the eight limbs of yoga. Buddha was a great yoga teacher, and it was many years after his death that the religion of buddhism was created. 28250 From: Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] tangible data and mental formations Hi again, Larry - In a message dated 12/23/03 11:06:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Howard: "I'm not clear on what you are saying. Do you mean that > pleasantness, unpleasantness, and neutral feeling only occur with an > object that is a bodily sensation?" > > Hi Howard, > > Pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral bodily feeling only occur with rupa. > Another interpretation is that pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral bodily > feeling only occur with tangible data. Therefore they only arise with > vipaka citta as object (according to Nina). Pleasant, unpleasant, and > neutral mental feeling can arise with either nama or rupa as object. > However, it is my experience that tangible data arises with mental > formations. When I am angry I "feel" angry. That "feeling" is tangible > data, a rupa. Often, I can only define my emotion (mental formation) by > deciphering the tangible data. The actual feeling (vedana) is really too > elusive to catch or analyze (for me). > > Larry > ======================== Sorry, I'm still not clear. Are you saying that emotions all have a physical component? I think that is quite true, though the physical component needn't be the object of the very same mindstate. There could be anger as concomitant to a state having some thought as object, and that mindstate (or sequence of states) could be immediately followed by a number of states with bodily sensations as object (bodily warmth, tightness, shaking, etc), with anger repeated in some or all of these subsequent states as well; but in the original angry state in which the angering thought occurred as object, that thought had to have been the only object, and, so, no rupa was present. As far as vedana, itself, is concerned, it is evident but subtle compared to emotion, because it is the mere affective taste of the object - the pleasantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality of feeling. Because it is relatively low-key, it is often hard to separate out from strong accompanying emotions which overwhelm it. (It's analogous to trying to hear a little child ask you a question during the finale of an orchestral performance, or to noticing the still, small voice of conscience in the midst of a crescendo of powerful lust. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28251 From: Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/24/03 6:26:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Just a quick clarification for now: > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > >---------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > SN = Samyutta Nikaya? Or SN = Sutta Nipata? (I own each, in any > >case.) > >---------------------------------------------- > > SN = Samyutta Nikaya aka Kindred Sayings (PTS) or Connected Discourses > (B.Bodhi, Wisdom). I believe SN or S are the standard abbreviations and Sn > is the standard one for Sutta Nipata. I agree it's confusing and I was > being lazy on this. > > Devatasamyutta which James and I have been quoting from, is the first > chapter of the first section or book (Sagathavagga - Book of Verses) of > SN. > > I'm glad you have a copy. Time to take it off the shelf and give it a dust > ready for the New Year along with Visuddhimagga and Dhammasangani;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > =========================== I've read through the SN several times, but there is no end to the usefulness of its study. I will be happy to discuss some of the suttas therein with you and James and anyone else on DSG. BTW, to whatever extent you or anyone else here celebrate Xmas - as a cultural matter, or even religiously - I wish you all a very Merry Christmas! The holiday represents peace, and I wish that for all of us and for the world. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28252 From: Larry Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:11am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV 58 "'As regards the "mark of the female", etc., too, its "facultiness" is stated as predominance, in other words, as a state of cause, because the conditions for the modal matter (aakaara-ruupa) consisting of the mark of the female, etc., in a continuity accompanied by faculties do not arise otherwise, and because these kinds of materiality are a condition for apprehending the female. But because the femininity faculty does not generate even the material instances in its own group or maintain or consolidate them, and because it does not so act for the material instances of other groups, it is therefore not called in the text faculty, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, as the life faculty is for the material instances of its group, and as nutriment is for the material instances in succeeding groups. And it is because the mark, etc., are dependent on other conditions that wherever they have predominance its shape is encountered, even in dead and sculptured matter that resembles it. And so too with the masculinity faculty." Hi all, Here is a slightly simpler interpretation of this commentary passage. The femininity and masculinity faculties are faculties in name only. They are actually concepts that encompass diverse rupa faculties that are grouped as characteristics of masculinity and femininity. For example, to analyze femininity (always great fun), we could say ovaries and breasts are different faculties with different powers but they both characterize femininity. If we look into the ways and work of the feminine we could ultimately find a rupa faculty. Howard suggested genes. That these are all characterized conceptually is inevitable. There is no other way to communicate. That they are not analyzed in great detail is because this knowledge isn't necessary for release. Have a happy holiday everyone. May you all celebrate birth, life, and good will. And may all your immaculate conceptions come to fruition. Larry 28253 From: Larry Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] tangible data and mental formations Hi Howard, I think we are in agreement. I just have one comment. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Larry - > Sorry, I'm still not clear. Are you saying that emotions all have a > physical component? Larry: Yes. >I think that is quite true, though the physical component > needn't be the object of the very same mindstate. > There could be anger as concomitant to a state having some thought as > object, and that mindstate (or sequence of states) could be immediately > followed by a number of states with bodily sensations as object (bodily warmth, > tightness, shaking, etc), with anger repeated in some or all of these subsequent > states as well; but in the original angry state in which the angering thought > occurred as object, that thought had to have been the only object, and, so, no > rupa was present. Larry: It "seems" that the physical component accompanies the cetasikas with the apprehending consciousness. This could only be if it were "tucked-in" with vedana. Abhidhamma doesn't support this of course. However, I couldn't find any account of this internal sensation, either as rupa or as vedana. Even if it were vedana, I think Nina would have a problem with bodily feeling apprehending a concept. > As far as vedana, itself, is concerned, it is evident but subtle > compared to emotion, because it is the mere affective taste of the object - the > pleasantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality of feeling. Because it is relatively > low-key, it is often hard to separate out from strong accompanying emotions > which overwhelm it. (It's analogous to trying to hear a little child ask you a > question during the finale of an orchestral performance, or to noticing the > still, small voice of conscience in the midst of a crescendo of powerful lust. > ;-) > > With metta, > Howard Larry 28254 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:51am Subject: Re: Noticeable difference? Dear Christine, You ask: "For those of us studying the Dhamma, reflecting on what we have learned, associating with admirable friends and diligently practising according to Dhamma - should all this conscientious effort and application make a noticeable difference ... to our characters and personalities?" This is a great question. I'd respond with a qualified "yes", i.e., yes, unless your defilements are already terrifically reduced relative to most people, or unless there is some persistent misunderstanding that prevents a proper practice of the Dhamma. I'm not great with navigating the texts, but I can still find some support in the Kalama sutta (A 3:65): "When you know in yourselves: 'These things are wholesome, blameless, and commended by the wise, being adopted and put into effect lead to welfare and happiness,' then you should practise them and abide in them." Frequently, people can readily discern in others the difference between "welfare and happiness" and anger, fear, hatred, doubt, worry, restlessness, boredom, sloth-and-torpor, attachment. If the diligent practice does not lead to an increase in welfare and happiness, then something is wrong. There are a number of possibilities that boil down to two: (1) the Dhamma itself is "unwholesome, liable to censure, condemned by the wise"; and (2) there is some basic misunderstanding of the Dhamma that is heard, so it is not properly being adopted and put into effect. I'm of a mind that the Dhamma is wholesome, blameless, and commended by the wise, so I'd lean to the latter explanation. Is the Dhamma that is heard wrong (i.e., are the "admirable friends" really "wise friends")? Is it being taught in a way that the true Dhamma is made comprehensible through practice? Also, a possibility is that the diligent practice does lead to an increase in welfare and happiness that oneself recognizes but others do not. This might occur if the heap of defilements started out very small so others would not discern a difference, or if the happiness is really derived from an increase in lobha rather than wisdom, which others might well notice but not regard as a real improvement. I also recall reading somewhere that proper practice leads to increasing detachment. Increasing detachment would bring certainly bring with it increases in compassion, metta, mudita, tranquillity, lightness, rectitude. These would be duly recognized by oneself and should be apparent to others as well. I'm sure there are other passages in the texts that support this idea, but I could only think of the 1 1/4 that I listed above. There are some more detailed Christian sayings that list the fruits of the spirit: Galatians 5:22-23a --> "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." These are also fruits of wisdom. The Christians start from there and then go on to say that if the teachings are truly understood, then a difference would be noticeable by others: John 13:35 --> "By this all men will know that you are my disciples: if you love one another." I just thought of another one from Buddha (one of my favorites): "even if bandits were to sever you savagely limb by limb with a two-handled saw, he who gave rise to mind of hate towards them would not be carrying out my teaching." (Mn 21) This kind of carrying out of the practice would surely be noticeable, but that bar might be a little too high for me to leap right now! Dan 28255 From: Alan Bell Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Any thoughts : To Alan and Thomas Dear Suan, Many thanks for the reply. Some further comments. higlighted with **** >The whole purpose of the Buddha's teachings is to help us break >ourselves free from Samsaaro. **** this is the same as the fundamental vedic beliefs which arose from the the Upanishads. >The Buddha discovered how to end his own Samsaaro, and taught others >to do likewise. That is to say, he can no longer be reborn. **** where does the energy go ? As in physics, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The buddha aligned with his true Self and is likley to now exist in the causal plain. The causal plain being where pure souls (if you like) reside and are not re-born / re-incarnated. Or he could be in the astral plane and not be re-born for many more centuries ... >In other words, Gotama the Buddha has successfully terminated his >sentient emergence. **** How do we know this for sure ? >But, Vishnu, if he existed at all, does not seem to want to end his >Samsaaro. That is to say, he might well be somewhere in the world of >Samsaaro. Alan should check with his Hindu gurus about the fate and >whereabouts of Vishnu. **** same could be said regarding Buddha, who many have said was a great saint as was vishnu, siva etc ... born to the earth for noble reasons to move humanity forward. Buddha was a true saint of compassion, and was born at a time to take humanity forward to the next level of conciousness. >Alan also wrote, perhaps echoing Hindu teachers: >"Buddha was a great yoga teacher, and it was many years after his >death that the religion of buddhism was created." >The above statement was wrong and unfair. We can't reduce the Buddha >to even the level of an ordinary Arahant, despite Arahantship being >the final goal of the Buddha's tachings. Therefore, reducing the >Buddha to the level of a great yoga teacher was wrong and unfair. **** sorry, don't mean to offend - just debate. However, he did reach enlightenment by practising Dhyana, the seventh limb of the eight limbs of yoga. >It is worth remembering that the Hindu Yoga, due to its belief in >eternal self, does not lead to the level of a Stream-insider >(Sotaapanno), the first-stage attainment of awakening or >enlightenment (bodhi) which requires eradication of self-view (belief >in an individual self and/or a cosmic Self, usually the equivalent of >the Creator). **** What is the difference between enlightenment and Self-realization (or samadhi) ? >The religion of Buddhism, if it meant Saasanaa or the Turning of >Dhamma Wheel, began with the First Discourse (Dhammacakkapavattana >Suttam) of the Buddha that taught the Four Noble Truths to the Five >Ascetics, the former attendants of the Buddha. **** Buddha came to the world to show the path of righteousness, to destroy the path of error, and to break down sorrow. Buddhism is not agnosticism or atheism. Buddha did not deny God. He only said: "Do not bother about questions like 'Is there God?', 'Do I exist?', 'Is the world real or not?'. Do not waste your time and energy in useless discussions. Become a practical religious man. Purify your heart. Control the mind. Lead a virtuous life. You will attain Nirvana or emancipation or eternal bliss." To accuse Buddha as an atheist or agnostic is simply foolish. Buddha found no use in metaphysical wrangling. He declined to enter into metaphysics. Is there God or no God? Is life eternal or non-eternal? These questions were set aside as not requiring an answer for the attainment of Nirvana. The immediate great problem for Buddha was suffering and annihilation of suffering. He asked his followers not to bother about transcendental questions. He set aside all those things which did not help towards the attainment of the goal. He thought it wise to give his followers a way, and not a creed. He thought that speculation about the nature of the ultimate reality was an unnecessary drag on the path of truth and spiritual attainment. The vital and fundamental thing is not to discuss about the ultimate, but to tread the path which takes man out of the world of pain and suffering into supreme abode of eternal bliss and immortality. The nature of the ultimate truth is beyond the reach of mind and speech. If Buddha refused to define the nature of the Absolute, or if he contended himself with negative definitions, it is only to show that the Absolute or the Ultimate is above all definitions Buddhism was founded by Gautama Sakya Muni, the rebel child of Hinduism. It sprang up directly from Hinduism. Buddha never thought of founding a new religion. He made no new discovery. He was proclaiming only the ancient and pure form of religion which had prevailed among the Hindus. The pure and noble religion of the Vedas and the Upanishads had degenerated into dead forms, unmeaning rites and ceremonies. The Brahmins claimed honour merely by their birth. They neglected the study of the Vedas and the practice of virtue. The Brahmins were treated with undue leniency, and the Sudras (the servant class) with undue severity. In order that flesh-eating might have the sanction religion, animals were slaughtered and sacrificed in Yajnas (ceremony where sacrifice is offered). Such was the state of society at the time when Buddha appeared. His tender and loving heart could not bear the shedding of so much innocent blood in the sacred name religion. Buddha declared that merit, and not birth, determined the position of a man in society. The persecuted Sudras joined him in large numbers and he unconsciously became the founder of a new faith. Buddhism is the religion of earnest, undaunted effort. Buddha demands from you faith in your own Self, in your own latent forces. Without this faith, nothing can be achieved. The first words of Buddha, after his Enlightenment, were: "Wide open are the gates of Immortality. Ye that ears to hear, release your faith." peace and light, Alan 28256 From: Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV 58 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 12/24/03 11:14:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi all, > > Here is a slightly simpler interpretation of this commentary passage. > The femininity and masculinity faculties are faculties in name only. > They are actually concepts that encompass diverse rupa faculties that > are grouped as characteristics of masculinity and femininity. For > example, to analyze femininity (always great fun), we could say > ovaries and breasts are different faculties with different powers but > they both characterize femininity. If we look into the ways and work > of the feminine we could ultimately find a rupa faculty. Howard > suggested genes. That these are all characterized conceptually is > inevitable. There is no other way to communicate. That they are not > analyzed in great detail is because this knowledge isn't necessary > for release. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: C'mon, Larry. it seems to me that what you are saying is that you also cannot buy a rupa that is masculinity/femininity. There are just the vague concepts pertaining to a variety of physical structures and functions. Nobody can really point out a femininity rupa or masculinity rupa because there are no such things!! ------------------------------------------------ > > Have a happy holiday everyone. May you all celebrate birth, life, and > good will. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: You, too! ------------------------------------------------- And may all your immaculate conceptions come to fruition.> > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Indeed. May the immaculate conception that is the conceiving of the seed of awakening (liberating wisdom) occur soon for all of us and quickly bear the fruit of full realization of nibbana, the perfectly immaculate state. ----------------------------------------------- > Larry > ======================== With immaculate metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28257 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 9:46am Subject: Re: moha Dear Robert, Good quotes! Is the following from The Udanaatthakatha as well? > (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter) > "it is ignorance since it causes beings > to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it > is ignorance since it darts among those things which > do not actually exist [i.e.men, women] and > since it does not dart among those things that do > exist [i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, > paramattha dhammas]." I wonder what "darts among" means... Dan 28258 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, explanations. Hi Larry, op 23-12-2003 22:55 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > > Very good explanation. I don't have anything to add except possibly > about the hermaphrodite. The commentary says there is only > masculinity or only femininity at any given moment. Does this mean > masculinity or femininity predominates at any given moment because of > predominance condition? N: I do not think predominates, but only one faculty, either femininity or masculinity is there. This is also in the Yamaka. But I do not know anything about the subject of hermaphrodites. > L: ps: I think what Howard was objecting to is all the concepts involved > in "mark, sign, work, and ways" and similarly the concepts involved > in describing the sense organs. It appears that all these concepts > are being classified as paramattha dhammas. What about that? N: Concepts are used to describe how sex faculty, a dhamma, operates, is the cause of all these things, outward appearance, behaviour, etc. Nina. 28259 From: Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 5:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, explanations. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/24/03 1:06:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, in reply to Larry's inquiry: > Does this mean > >masculinity or femininity predominates at any given moment because of > >predominance condition? you wrote: > N: I do not think predominates, but only one faculty, either femininity or > masculinity is there. However, in a previous reply to me you wrote: > N: It does not arise from time to time but all the time, in a group of > rupas. Now, when I said "from time to time," I meant not in every mindstate. I'm not clear on what you are saying with regard to this. Are you saying that is evry process of states it occurs, but not in each state? With metta, Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28260 From: Eddie Lou Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] How To Get Through The Samsara ( 10 ) Hi, All, I am a little behind in those msg retrieval, can someone shed some light on it where to go to msg# 27992, etc. Thanks. Eddie Lou --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Eddie Lou, > > Thanks for your interest in Dhamma. Sarah has linked > the site for > easy access and see her post ( Msg ) #28193. Or > number (09) is at > (Mag ) # 27992 and you can go to there. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 28261 From: nordwest Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 0:13pm Subject: Alan / Any thoughts Dear Alan, I can understand you ideas very good. I am a buddhist but interested in Hinduism as well. The reason why is the following: When Gautama became the Buddha, many things in Hinduism changed, and today enlightened beings like Ajja (Hindu guru) studied buddhism as well. We can no longer seperate really Hinduism from Buddhism, in fact, the Hindu masters and gurus learn from the Buddha how to attain enlightenment.. the very last little details that were missing in the old Hindu practices. It's not much Hinduism has to adapt additional, just some little details. What you call "God" , the buddha called "Dharma." Just words, the same thing. Of course it has nothing to do with the Christian idea of an interacting all-powerul being. The best example to enlightenment is the now living Hindu guru Ajja. He studied Hindusim and Buddhism, and if you read his very rare interviews (some quotes are on http://www.shakumasu.com ), you will realize, that he talks more like the Buddha than Hindu. However, it's not important... religions are a vehicle... the truth is no vehicle, it simply IS. Many of your questions deal with your perception of "the Self." Stop thinking in religions, and start with contemplation about impermanence, emptiness and the mind. You will find, that you are mind - the Pure Mind, the mirror-mind. This mirror - like any mirror - can't see itself. This is why we create the idea of "a Self." To understand rebirth you first have to understand and then realize deeply the emptiness of existence. The Hindu guru Ajja is a enlightened being, using the Buddhas vehicel in combination with Hinduism, he says: "The Thinking must stop!" and he says " Ajja: One loses his existence through knowledge and action. Through these he becomes free. Then he himself is a jivan mukta [liberated person]. But when that "I" has gone, what is there? Where is the question then? AC (interviewer): Even though he is free, isn't the jnani [Self-realized individual], the jivan mukta, still expressing something through his actions? Ajja: I don't have the awareness that "I'm a jnani" or "I'm a jivan mukta." I don't have anything. When the "I" has gone, the consciousness does not even raise the feeling of "I." That is completely gone. So for a jnani that question does not even arise. When there is no question of thinking, then ordinary action in day-to-day life does not take place. Our thoughts are transformed into contemplation. Then our day-to-day routine interactions become spiritual. In that, the regular routine itself becomes spiritual life. That itself is yogic life. That itself is divine life. ...." ------- Nirvana is nothing but the return to what we are. We are now a pizza with cheese and sausage and anchovis... take away the dough and the cheese and the sausage and finally the anchovis ... and then you are what you are. You can't see yourself, your six senses become enlightenment and SEE all that is, without asking, "why" or "do I like this?" or "who is the one seeing this" ... all those questions are not important to an enlightened being. He simply is. -- The first step towards this is to accept things as they are. Start with the religions: don't have likes and dislikes, don't quarrel over vishnu or buddha, over jesus or krishna... they have found their place. We don't. Profit from the wisdom of the sages. Gassho, Thomas 28262 From: nordwest Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Any thoughts : To Alan and Thomas Dear Suan Lu Zaw, Thank you, I am aware of this. For me the Buddha is more than a good yoga teacher. In fact, without the Buddha I would most likely be already in the animal or hells realms. And don't worry, the Buddhas are beyond this statements, untouched and ever still. Gassho, Thomas abhidhammika wrote: Dear Alan, Thomas and all How are you? As Thomas wrote, Gotama the Buddha had undergone countless previous lives of all kinds - including animals. This cycle of death and rebirth is called Samsaaro, as you already know. ... 28263 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How To Get Through The Samsara ( 10 ) Hi Eddie, When searching for a particular number message, click on: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages/ then scroll to the small box marked "Msg # ". Type in 27992 (or whatever message you are looking for) and click on 'go'. OR If looking for the messages from a particular person (say, htoo naing). Go to the escribe archive at: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ type the name htoo naing in the search box, click on 'search' and it will bring up the 217 messages he has posted so far to dsg, or which mention his name. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Lou wrote: > Hi, All, > I am a little behind in those msg retrieval, can > someone shed some light on it where to go to msg# > 27992, etc. > > Thanks. > Eddie Lou > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > Dear Eddie Lou, > > > > Thanks for your interest in Dhamma. Sarah has linked > > the site for > > easy access and see her post ( Msg ) #28193. Or > > number (09) is at > > (Mag ) # 27992 and you can go to there. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > http://companion.yahoo.com/ 28264 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:49pm Subject: Re: moha -In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Robert, > Good quotes! Is the following from The Udanaatthakatha as well? > > > (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter) > > "it is ignorance since it causes beings > > to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it > > is ignorance since it darts among those things which > > do not actually exist [i.e.men, women] and > > since it does not dart among those things that do > > exist [i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, > > paramattha dhammas]." > > I wonder what "darts among" means... > > Dan ======== Dear Dan, yes from the Udanaatthakatha translated by Masefield. Good question about 'darts' , I haven't looked at the pali, so better not guess:) Rob 28265 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 7:14pm Subject: Bangkok trip Hi , anyone know what are the dates for the trip to Thailand in January? Rob 28266 From: nordwest Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:14pm Subject: The mirror The mirror reflects all that is, but the mirror can't reflect itself. Who am I? I am the mirror. 28267 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:32pm Subject: Re: Bangkok trip Dear Robert, This is an excerpt from a letter from Betty, and, as far as I understand, these arrangements still stand. "Than Achaan has set aside the following dates for discussions at the Foundation: Thursday-Saturday, January 29-31, from 2-4pm each day, with the possibility that the time can be extended in the afternoons as desired. A morning discussion will also be held on the 29th, from 9-11:30am. However, we are also free to hold discussions on Friday and Saturday mornings (30th, 31st), although without Than Achaan. Than Achaan will be free for lunch on the 29th ... " Betty - if anything has changed, can you let people know please? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Hi , > anyone know what are the dates for the trip to Thailand in January? > Rob 28268 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 0:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58 Feminine/masculine and humor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > ========================== > So, from this, what are we to say that feminine faculty and masculine > faculty *are*??? Some mystical, magical unseen hidden causes of what we > conventionally take to be feminine and masculine characteristics? Will someone say > they are genes? Uh, uh - genes are pa~n~natti! This business, like > jivitindriya, is just more evidence of how weak the rupa notion is handled in Abhidhamma. > =============== Dear Howard, I am suitably energised by your criticism of femininity and masculinity in the Abhidhamma. So I have done a quick internet search and found a daily life comparison that surely shows the truth of the Abhidhamma. OIL CHANGE INSTRUCTIONS FOR WOMEN: 1)Pull up to Jiffy Lube when the mileage reaches 3000 miles since the last oil change. 2)Drink a cup of coffee. 3)15 minutes later write a check and leave with a properly maintained vehicle. Money spent: Oil Change: $25.00 Coffee: Free to customers Total $25.00 ................................................................. OIL CHANGE INSTRUCTIONS FOR MEN: 1) Wait until Saturday, drive to auto parts store and buy a case of oil, filter, kitty litter, hand cleaner and a scented tree, write a check for $50.00. 2) Stop by 7 - 11 and buy a case of beer, write a check for $20.00, drive home. 3) Open a beer and drink it. 4) Jack car up. Spend 30 minutes looking for jack stands. 5) Find jack stands under kid's pedal car. 6) In frustration, open another beer and drink it. 7) Place drain pan under engine. 8) Look for 9/16 box end wrench. 9) Give up and use crescent wrench. 10) Unscrew drain plug. 11) Drop drain plug in pan of hot oil: splash hot oil on face and arms in process. Cuss. 12) Crawl out from under car to wipe hot oil off of face and arms. Throw kitty litter on spilled oil. 13) Have another beer while watching oil drain. 14) Spend 30 minutes looking for oil filter wrench. 15) Give up; crawl under car and hammer a screwdriver through oilfilter and twist off. 16) Crawl out from under car with dripping oil filter splashing oil everywhere from holes. Cleverly hide old oil filter among trash in trash can to avoid environmental penalties. Drink a beer. 17) Buddy shows up; finish case of beer with him. Decide to finish oil change tomorrow so you can go see his new garage door opener work. 18) Sunday: Skip church because "I gotta finish the oil change Drag pan full of old oil out from underneath car. Cleverly dump oil in hole in back yard instead of taking it to recycle. 19) Throw kitty litter on oil spilled during step 18. 20) Beer. No, drank it all yesterday. 21) Walk to 7-11; buy beer. 22) Install new oil filter making sure to apply a thin coat of oil to gasket surface. 23) Dump first quart of fresh oil into engine. 24) Remember drain plug from step 11. 25) Hurry to find drain plug in drain pan. 26) Remember that the used oil is buried in a hole in the back yard along with drain plug. 27) Drink beer. 28) Shovel out hole and sift oily mud for drain plug. Re-shovel oily patch of ground and avoid environmental penalties. Wash drain plug in lawn mower gas. 29)Discover that first quart of fresh oil is now on the floor. Throw kitty litter on oil spill. 30) Drink beer. 31) Crawl under car getting kitty litter into eyes. Wipe eyes with oily rag used to clean drain plug. Slip with stupid crescent wrench tightening drain plug and bang knuckles on frame. 32) Bang head on floorboards in reaction to step 31. 33) Begin cussing fit. 34) Throw stupid crescent wrench. 35) Cuss for additional 10 minutes because wrench hit Miss August (2002) 36) Beer. 37) Clean up hands and forehead and bandage as required to stop blood flow. 38) Beer. 39) Beer. 40) Dump in five fresh quarts of oil. 41) Beer. 42) Lower car from jack stands. 43) Accidentally crush remaining case of new motor oil. 44) Move car back to apply more kitty litter to fresh oil spilled during steps 23-43. 45) Beer. 46) Test drive car. 47) Get pulled over: arrested for driving under the influence. 48) Car gets impounded. 49) Call loving wife, make bail. 50) 12 hours later, get car from impound yard. -- But you know the job was done right, and, after all, quality costs a bit extra... RobertK 28269 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasati 8 b Nina I'm finding very useful the re-run through this series. Lots of interesting detail and good references. Is there any chance of a consolidated (i.e. single file) version at the end? Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > anapanasati 8 b > > We read in the Co. to the Anapana Sati Sutta: > is mundane > (lokiya); mundane breathing in and out perfects the mundane > foundations of > mindfulness; the mundane foundations of mindfulness perfect the > supramundane > (lokuttara) enlightenment factors; the supramundane enlightenment > factors > perfect nibbana as the fruit of clear vision and deliverance> > The Co states that it is thus elsewhere (in other texts), but that > in this > sutta it is handed down that the mundane foundations of mindfulness > perfect > the mundane enlightenment factors, and that these perfect clear > vision > (vijjå), deliverance (vimutti), fruition (phala) and nibbana, which > are > lokuttara. Because in this sutta 3clear vision and deliverance2 > designate > clear vision, fruition (phala) and nibbana.> ... 28270 From: Alan Bell Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:25am Subject: RE: [dsg] Alan / Any thoughts Dear Thomas, Thank you for your wisdom. What type of buddhism do you practice - Zen ? in light, Alan 28271 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, sex faculty. Howard (and All) Many thanks for your very kind Christmas wishes (in another post), and my best wishes to you and to all members. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - Howard: The problem I have with a rupa of feminity or masculinity is a problem with a single rupic condition (of varying degrees/strengths) that is responsible for sexual characteristics. This just makes no sense to me. Sexual characteristics are determined by genes and other biological structures, pa~n~natti all. Jon: You say there cannot be a rupa that is responsible for sexual characteristics because that is determined by genes and other biological structures which, as we know, are pannatti. By the same logic there could not be a rupa that is eyesense, or visible-object, or whatever, since any function that you might care to mention is conventionally ascribed to some pannatti or other. Howard: That there may be an inclination (sankharic) to be born male or to be born female is something that seems plausible to me (and is born out by various Buddhist tales of rebirth), but the idea of a rupa of femininity that arises from time to time, like pleasantness and odors and sounds arise is simply a piece of nonsense to me. Jon: I think you'd agree that this is an assessment made from the perspective of your own deeply-held views. But it's good that you vent your exasperation! Howard: The same is the case for me with a "life force" rupa and with a "nutrition" rupa. What does it mean for an organism to die? The life force leaves it? That is primitive nonsense for which there is NO evidence. Nutrition is the general concept of food/physical sustenance. This is not a rupa nor a category of rupas. This is pa~n~natti, pure and simple. Do foods exist? Sure, in the same way as all conventional objects exist, but not as paramattha dhammas. Jon: As long as the Abhidhamma is evaluated by reference to conventional conceptual thinking it will remain a puzzle and may even appear to be nonsense. However, I'm sure you can see from your experience with the suttas, where the same situation applies, that that approach is not conducive to a proper appreciation of the teachings. Howard: The Abhidhammic treatment of physical sense doors also lies in this problem area. When a particular complex aggregate of conditions arise, there occurs the ability to see. That conditioned arising of the ability to see is the "opening (or activation) of the eye door," with the capacity to see being the eye-door rupa. The other four physical sense doors are similar. They are physical capacities/abilities. But this is NOT the Abhidhammic position. Jon: The list of Howard's pet peeves grows! Howard: Nina, we are discussing what I believe to be the very weakest elements of Abhidhamma, and it will take a LOT for me to come to think that there is any validity to these notions as given there. Jon: As Nina has said, there is no need to be overly concerned about those aspects that don't appeal, and it might even be a mistake to dwell on them if they invoke a reaction. But if there is any confidence in the teachings as a whole, and I know there is plenty in your case, one can also acknowledge that the weakness might just as likely lie with our own way of thinking, and not with the Abhidhamma, especially given the long and illustrious pedigree of the latter (it helps for me, anyway ;-)). Jon 28272 From: nordwest Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 2:37am Subject: RE: [dsg] Alan / Any thoughts I practice Traditional (Chinese) Pure Land Buddhism, on base of Jodo Shinshu (True Pure Land), but I am interestd in all kind of spiritual development that helps me understand "why" to practice this or that. metta, Thomas Alan Bell wrote:Dear Thomas, Thank you for your wisdom. What type of buddhism do you practice - Zen ? in light, Alan 28273 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 4:39am Subject: Samyutta Nikaya discussions (was Question on ego and self ..) Hi Howard (James & All), --- upasaka@a... wrote: > I've read through the SN several times, but there is no end to > the > usefulness of its study. I will be happy to discuss some of the suttas > therein > with you and James and anyone else on DSG. .... That’s great! Do you have the B.Bodhi transl or the PTS one? I know Christine also has the BB one and I’m sure many others do, so hope everyone chips in from time to time, sharing any suttas they like as we go through. I have a Qu on referencing after a brief chat w/James, which maybe anyone could comment on. I’m thinking that the easiest way to give references would be to follow the ATI format. For example, SN1, 38 (8) refers to Samyutta Nikaya, Devatasamyutta, 38(8) The Stone Splinter on p116 in our BB transl. ATI gives this as SN1.38 The Stone Sliver (Sakalika sutta). RobK or Nina, would this -SN1,38(8)- be clear enough for someone using the PTS transl? [For anyone wishing to access the Pali, this could be found at: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/index.html 1. 4. 8. Sakalikasutta, 38. Is it acceptable? ..... For notes in the BB transl, we could just put note 41: or note 41, p.357: Spk: refers to the commentary to SN. If the note doesn’t say Spk, it means it’s BB’s note. Others may add ATI or PTS or Pali notes too. .... > BTW, to whatever extent you or anyone else here celebrate Xmas - > as a > cultural matter, or even religiously - I wish you all a very Merry > Christmas! > The holiday represents peace, and I wish that for all of us and for the > world. .... Thanks Howard and I wish the same to all - whether it’s a time of celebrations or not and whether alone or with family, whether working or on holiday. Metta, Sarah p.s Who says Hong Kong is crowded? We had the sea to ourselves...brrr;-) =========================== 28274 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] concept & characteristic Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon & Nina, > > I agree reality can be an object of a deluded consciousness (i.e. > any unwholesome consciousness) but I wonder what is delusion if not > conceptuality? As you point out below, conceptuality is not per se unwholesome/incorrect. But it may be true to say that the conventional notion of delusion is a kind of conceptuality. However, the mental factor of ignorance/delusion (moha) is something else again. This refers to a momentary ignorance of the true nature of the object of the present moment of consciousness, which may for example be a moment of experiencing an object through 1 of the 5 sense-doors. As you can see, this would not involve any kind of conceptuality, since there is no thinking at that particular moment about the object being experienced. The mental factor moha is 1 of the 3 unwholesome roots of consciousness, and it accompanies every moment of akusala consciousness. It has a particular characteristic and function, as can be found described in the texts. Moha is capable of being the object of subsequently occurring awareness (remember that akusala citta and cetasika can be the object of awareness -- see Satipatthana Sutta), but my guess is that would have to be quite well-developed awareness. > This isn't to say concept can't be reasonably correct, e.g. the > three > general characteristics (impermanence, suffering, anatta). However, > wisdom's (panna) special feature is its ability to know individual > characteristics. Yes, and ignorance's special feature is to *not know* individual characteristics. Jon 28275 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 5:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Herman --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > I am open to any ideas that aren't closed. How would one go about > testing the hypothesis? The assertions found in the teachings are are all capable of being tested against the presently occurring moment of experience, but only if appropriate to our level of understanding. However, even in the case of a hypothesis that cannot be tested by us due to lack of developed understanding, if it's a hypothesis that is found in or supported by the ancient texts, and is not inconsistent with our present every-day experience, it might be worthwhile at least countenancing its possibility. (BTW, ideas per se are neither 'open' or 'closed', surely. This aspect lies in the mind of the individual.) > Yes, agreed, a very worthwhile experiment. Could it be that anger > and attachment arise as frequently as they do and to the extent > that > they do, without seeming intention for them to arise, because there > is no awareness of what is being intended? Lack of awareness (if we both mean the same thing by that term ;-)) is indeed given as one of the conditions for the arising of akusala and the non-arising of kusala. But the big picture is more complex than that. It is also clear from the texts that one of the principal conditions for the arising of any unwholesome mental state is the latent tendency (previously accumulated tendency) for that particular mental state. > Feelings are very closely linked to the determination of what > objects are, as in, what they mean. I fully accept that initial > feelings, brought about by initial determinations, are just the > results of what one has learned. (attribution of meaning) That this > is not a deterministic process is demonstrayed by the ability to > change one's mind about what objects mean (until your hypothesis > becomes accepted theory that is :-) This relearning process will > change the initial feelings that arise on seeing similar objects. Maybe so, but do you see this as being relevant to the development of the path? What ultimately is the value in being able to change/re-condition one's feelings, as you see it? > A non-controversial peace, love and joy to you And to you too Herman. Jon 28276 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 6:00am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The development of Wisdom Azita (and Kom) Like Kom, I would just like to give my thoughts on this point, as I know of no texts that go into it in detail. As we know, one of the main conditions for the future development of panna is previously accumulated panna, which means that each presently arising moment of panna will be a condition for panna to arise again in the future. However, presently arising panna is not the only necessary condition for the future arising of panna. Other conditions are also required. As Kom mentions, the Buddha gave 4 factors all of which must be developed and cultivated if panna is to be developed to the level of sotapanna: association with a wise person, listening to the true dhamma, wise consideration, and practice according to the dhamma (the last one being panna, as I understand it). Although these factors are given in a graduated order, they are not factors to be accomplished and then abandoned /forgotten, one never gets beyond them. No matter what the level of panna, the need for each of these supporting factors continues: association with wise persons/good friends, hearing/studying /discussing the teachings, considering/questioning what has been heard an understood, as well as the panna that is 'practice according to the dhamma'. It seems to me that the person who has relatively more panna than saddha may easily get the notion that these other factors are not so necessary for him/her, and that he/she can develop the path without the assistance/reminders/admonition of others etc. Once the seed of this conceit has been sown, the 'craftiness' will rationalise it and find ways to bring it not effect, so that previously established habits and practices will be dropped for 1 reason or another. As a result, the development of panna is no longer sustainable. For the person in whom saddha predominates the position is the opposite. Undue emphasis may be given to attending talks, visiting the temple, observing moon days and the like, but without the critical consideration and questioning that is one of the necessary factors, so that there is an uncritical acceptance of whatever is heard. Panna cannot be sustained under these conditions either. As Kom says, wrong views are abundant, and without all 4 factors, we can never eliminate it... Jon SN 55.55 – 61 (CDB p.1836) Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom, to the growth of wisdom, to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom, to the growth of wisdom, to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Hi Azita, ... > Yes, I think there are many interesting tidbits about why parayatti > is most > important to the development of wisdom, and why it is impossible to > realize > the 4 noble truths without the frequent awareness of this very > moment. If > we need reminder, we can always remember the 4 factors of > sotapanna: the > association with a wise person, listening to the true dhamma, wise > consideration, and practice according to the dhamma. Wrong views > are > abundant, and without all these 4 factors, we can never eliminate > it... ... > Metta, > > kom > > > > -----Original Message----- ... > > A good time for my question. I have been thinking about > Panna > > and Saddha. We are told that Panna without Saddha can lead to > > craftiness, and that too much Saddha without Panna can lead to > blind > > faith. How would craftiness and blind faith appear, what are > their > > characteristics? 28277 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58 Feminine/masculine and humor Hi Rob, Howard & All, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > I am suitably energised by your criticism of femininity and > masculinity in the Abhidhamma. So I have done a quick internet > search and found a daily life comparison that surely shows the truth > of the Abhidhamma. > > OIL CHANGE INSTRUCTIONS FOR WOMEN: > > 1)Pull up to Jiffy Lube when the mileage reaches 3000 miles since > the last oil change. > 2)Drink a cup of coffee. > 3)15 minutes later write a check and leave with a properly > maintained vehicle. > > Money spent: > Oil Change: $25.00 > Coffee: Free to customers > Total $25.00 ..... ;-) Simple, right? Why would anyone consider the alternative??? And with the extra time and clean hands, we can reflect on these: Subtle Rupas produced by Kamma, ch5, Nina's book on Rupas http://www.abhidhamma.org/Rupa%201.htm ***** Pariyadana sutta http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15007 ***** Vibh-A (Dispeller), 47: "In the exposition of the 'far' dyad the feminine faculty (itthindriya) and so on have been classified above (Dhs 585, Asl 321). But in this dyad subtle materiality is spoken of as 'far' because of the difficulty in penetrating its characteristic in the sense of being difficult to lay hold of......" ***** Vibh-A, 93 "Like a drop of sesame oil, [or of] unclouded cream of ghee, Thus is pronounced the counterpart of the foetus's appearance". (SA i 300) "When the material continuity is as minute as this, the types of continuity are three in number: the basis decad (vatthudasaka), the body decad (kaayadasaka) and the sex decad (bhaavadasaka)which has the femininity faculty in the case of a woman or the masculinity faculty in the case of a man." Metta, Sarah ===== 28278 From: Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58 Feminine/masculine and humor Hi, Robert - Ahhh, *now* I understand!! Feminine faculty = pa~n~na, and Masculine Faculty = avijja!! If only that had been made clear at the outset, there would have been no confusion on my part! Many thanks for the clarification. ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/25/03 3:09:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >>========================== > > So, from this, what are we to say that feminine faculty and > masculine > >faculty *are*??? Some mystical, magical unseen hidden causes of > what we > >conventionally take to be feminine and masculine characteristics? > Will someone say > >they are genes? Uh, uh - genes are pa~n~natti! This business, like > >jivitindriya, is just more evidence of how weak the rupa notion is > handled in Abhidhamma. > > =============== > > Dear Howard, > I am suitably energised by your criticism of femininity and > masculinity in the Abhidhamma. So I have done a quick internet > search and found a daily life comparison that surely shows the truth > of the Abhidhamma. > > OIL CHANGE INSTRUCTIONS FOR WOMEN: > > 1)Pull up to Jiffy Lube when the mileage reaches 3000 miles since > the last oil change. > 2)Drink a cup of coffee. > 3)15 minutes later write a check and leave with a properly > maintained vehicle. > > Money spent: > Oil Change: $25.00 > Coffee: Free to customers > Total $25.00 > > ................................................................. > > OIL CHANGE INSTRUCTIONS FOR MEN: > > 1) Wait until Saturday, drive to auto parts store and buy a case of > oil, filter, kitty litter, hand cleaner and a scented tree, write a > check for $50.00. > > 2) Stop by 7 - 11 and buy a case of beer, write a check for $20.00, > drive home. > > 3) Open a beer and drink it. (Items 4-38 omitted to save bandwidth! ;-) > > 39) Beer. > > 40) Dump in five fresh quarts of oil. > > 41) Beer. > > 42) Lower car from jack stands. > > 43) Accidentally crush remaining case of new motor oil. > > 44) Move car back to apply more kitty litter to fresh oil spilled > during steps 23-43. > > 45) Beer. > > 46) Test drive car. > > 47) Get pulled over: arrested for driving under the influence. > > 48) Car gets impounded. > > 49) Call loving wife, make bail. > > 50) 12 hours later, get car from impound yard. > > > > -- But you know the job was done right, and, after all, quality > costs a bit extra... > > > RobertK > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28279 From: Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 4:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, sex faculty. Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/25/03 5:24:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard (and All) > > Many thanks for your very kind Christmas wishes (in another post), > and my best wishes to you and to all members. > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Nina - > Howard: > The problem I have with a rupa of feminity or masculinity is a > problem with a single rupic condition (of varying degrees/strengths) > that is responsible for sexual characteristics. This just makes no > sense to me. Sexual characteristics are determined by genes and other > biological structures, pa~n~natti all. > > Jon: > You say there cannot be a rupa that is responsible for sexual > characteristics because that is determined by genes and other > biological structures which, as we know, are pannatti. > > By the same logic there could not be a rupa that is eyesense, or > visible-object, or whatever, since any function that you might care > to mention is conventionally ascribed to some pannatti or other. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, of course there *could* be such a rupa, but it is nowhere made clear, so far as I can see, what is the nature of it. Hardness and sights etc are observed, so we know directly what *they* are. --------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > That there may be an inclination (sankharic) to be born male or to be > born female is something that seems plausible to me (and is born out > by various Buddhist tales of rebirth), but the idea of a rupa of > femininity that arises from time to time, like pleasantness and odors > and sounds arise is simply a piece of nonsense to me. > > Jon: > I think you'd agree that this is an assessment made from the > perspective of your own deeply-held views. But it's good that you > vent your exasperation! > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Probaly the exasperation pertains mostly to not enough being said about the nature of such alleged rupas. I am willing to see if I am shown! ;-) ---------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > The same is the case for me with a "life force" rupa and with > a "nutrition" rupa. What does it mean for an organism to die? The > life force leaves it? That is primitive nonsense for which there is > NO evidence. Nutrition is the general concept of food/physical > sustenance. This is not a rupa nor a category of rupas. This is > pa~n~natti, pure and simple. Do foods exist? Sure, in the same way as > all conventional objects exist, but not as paramattha dhammas. > > Jon: > As long as the Abhidhamma is evaluated by reference to conventional > conceptual thinking it will remain a puzzle and may even appear to be > nonsense. However, I'm sure you can see from your experience with > the suttas, where the same situation applies, that that approach is > not conducive to a proper appreciation of the teachings. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, again, Jon, what is needed is some sort of demonstration of paramattha dhammas, not pa~n~natti, that are properly called by these terms. Again. I am willing. ------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > The Abhidhammic treatment of physical sense doors also lies in > this problem area. When a particular complex aggregate of conditions > arise, there occurs the ability to see. That conditioned arising of > the ability to see is the "opening (or activation) of the eye door," > with the capacity to see being the eye-door rupa. The other four > physical sense doors are similar. They are physical > capacities/abilities. But this is NOT the Abhidhammic position. > > Jon: > The list of Howard's pet peeves grows! > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Just call me Upasaka Ebenezer! Bah, humbug!! ;-)) -------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > Nina, we are discussing what I believe to be the very weakest > elements of Abhidhamma, and it will take a LOT for me to come to > think that there is any validity to these notions as given there. > > Jon: > As Nina has said, there is no need to be overly concerned about those > aspects that don't appeal, and it might even be a mistake to dwell on > them if they invoke a reaction. But if there is any confidence in > the teachings as a whole, and I know there is plenty in your case, > one can also acknowledge that the weakness might just as likely lie > with our own way of thinking, and not with the Abhidhamma, especially > given the long and illustrious pedigree of the latter (it helps for > me, anyway ;-)). > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do, indeed, have confidence in the teachings as a whole, and that includes a great deal of Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28280 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 11:17am Subject: Re: Samyutta Nikaya discussions Hello Sarah, James, Howard and all, I'm happy to join in the discussions also - maybe one of you could start the ball rolling? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard (James & All), > 28281 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:12pm Subject: SN-Introduction Notes Hi All, Selected Introduction Notes from the SN, Samyutta Nikaya, Wisdom Publications, Bhikkhu Bodhi translator: "On the basis of its thematic arrangement, we might postulate that, in is most distinctive features as a collection (though certainly not in all particulars), SN was compiled to serve as the repository for the many short but pithy suttas disclosing the Buddha's radical insights into the nature of reality and his unique path to spiritual emancipation. This collection would have served the needs of two types of disciples within the monastic order. One were the doctrinal specialists, those monks and nuns who were capable of grasping the deepest dimensions of wisdom and took upon themselves the task of clarifying for others the subtle perspectives on reality opened up by the Buddha's teachings. Because SN brings together in its major samyuttas the many abstruse, profound, and delicately nuanced suttas on such weighty topics as dependent origination, the five aggregates, the six sense bases, the factors of the path, and the Four Noble Truths, it would have been perfectly suited for those disciples of intellectual bent who delighted in exploring the deep implication of the Dhamma and in explaining them to their spiritual companions. The second type of disciples for whom SN seems to have been designed were those monks and nuns who had already fulfilled the preliminary stages of meditative training and were intent on consummating their efforts with the direct realization of ultimate truth. Because the suttas in this collection are vitally relevant to meditators bent on arriving at the undeceptive "knowledge of things as they really are," they could well have formed the main part of a study syllabus compiled for the guidance of insight meditators." (SN, B. Bodhi, 32-33) "SN opens up to us the profound perspective reached through contemplative insight, where the familiar consensual world of persons and things gives way to the sphere of impersonal conditioned phenomena arising and perishing in accordance with laws of conditionality. This is the perspective on reality that, in the next stage in the evolution of Buddhist thought, will culminate in the Abhidhamma. Indeed, the connection between SN and the Abhidhamma appears to be a close one, and we might even speculate that it was the nonsubstantialist perspective so prominent in SN that directly gave rise to the type of inquiry that crystallized in the Abhidhamma philosophy. The close relationship between the two is especially evident from the second book of the Pali Abhidhamma Pitaka, the Vibhanga, which consists of eighteen treatises each devoted to the analysis of a particular doctrinal topic. Of these eighteen, the first twelve have their counterparts in SN. Since most of these treatises include a "Suttanta Analysis" (suttantabhajaniya) as well as a more technical "Abhidhamma Analysis" (abhidhammabhajaniya), it is conceivable that the Suttanta Analyses of the Vibhanga were the primordial seeds of the Abhidhamma and that it was among the specialists in SN that the idea arose of devising a more technical expository system which eventually came to be called the Abhidhamma." (SN, B. Bohdi, 33-34). James' Note: I began a study of the SN because, unlike Howard, I have never read through the entire collection (Howard has some years on me though, so I am trying to catch up! ;-)) This is a daunting task because it has 2,072 pages! From these introductory notes, it can be seen that the SN has plenty of material for a serious meditator like myself and material which will appeal to the Abhidhamma folks. I would like to invite everyone to study the SN with me, Sarah, Howard, and Christine, and post material with comments or questions, as you see fit. The true purpose of any sangha is to encourage each other to learn and practice the dhamma. We are together in the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom with the dhamma as our teacher. Metta, James 28282 From: Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 8:31am Subject: Coming on Too Strong Hi, Nina (and all) - It occurs to me that in some recent posts I may well have "come on too strongly" with regard to minor elements of Abhidhamma I have problems with. As I think about it, I realize that that using terms like 'nonsense' and 'primitive' is going over the top and could well cause offense. I apologize for this. While I think it is important to question what doesn't quite make sense to me, I think that it should be done in a far more gentle manner than that, and, particularly, my questioning should not express such a *certainty* on my part, for such certainty is a good sign of ego. As it happens, I have learned and continue to learn tremendously from the Abhidhamma and from the teaching provided by you and others here. The basic Abhidhammic framework of the flow of mindstates, each state consisting of a citta, cetasikas, and arammana (rupa or whatever), and the notion of 'paramattha dhammas' so well presented and discussed on DSG, including the critical distinction between paramattha dhammas and pa~n~natti, have been and continue to be of inestimable value to me. I am very grateful for all I gain from DSG, and my profiting from being on DSG began to grow even more once you joined the list, Nina. I know that you and many others here have not only the highest respect for the Abhidhamma, but even a devout love for it, and I think it careless of me to not to have tread more carefully. All the "Abhidhammikas" here are brilliant folks, powerfully devoted to the Dhamma, and warmly compassionate at the same time, and having friends in the Dhamma such as these is truly a blessing. With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28283 From: Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Hi, James - I'm with you!! I'm eager to proceed with the study and the discussions. With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/25/03 4:13:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Hi All, > > Selected Introduction Notes from the SN, Samyutta Nikaya, Wisdom > Publications, Bhikkhu Bodhi translator: > > "On the basis of its thematic arrangement, we might postulate that, > in is most distinctive features as a collection (though certainly not > in all particulars), SN was compiled to ... > > James' Note: I began a study of the SN because, unlike Howard, I have > never read through the entire collection (Howard has some years on me > though, so I am trying to catch up! ;-)) This is a daunting task > because it has 2,072 pages! From these introductory notes, it can be > seen that the SN has plenty of material for a serious meditator like > myself and material which will appeal to the Abhidhamma folks. I > would like to invite everyone to study the SN with me, Sarah, Howard, > and Christine, and post material with comments or questions, as you > see fit. The true purpose of any sangha is to encourage each other > to learn and practice the dhamma. We are together in the pursuit of > knowledge and wisdom with the dhamma as our teacher. > > Metta, James > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28284 From: ashkenn2k Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 4:53pm Subject: Re: SN-Introduction Notes Hi James In one of your earlier email, if my memory did not fail me, you indicate that it should not include the commentary. However, I like to appeal for myself, if possible there should be commentary notes for pple like me to have more detail knowledge on a particular suttta, esp when the commentary in the SN is in Pali which I believe not yet translated in English. One of my New Year wishes is that I hope Sarah will translate the commentary (not in whole but relevant ones) when she discuss these suttas with you. For you kind considerations best regards Ken O 28285 From: Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concept & characteristic Hi Jon, A few more ideas on moha: I called it delusion but perhaps we could classify its experience as having a question or having a wrong view. I would include bewilderment in having a question. I've been trying to figure out the connection between the mental formations of greed hatred and delusion and the internal physical sensations (tangible data) that seemingly always accompany them. How about the phenomenon of consciousness produced rupa? I'm looking at the chart on p. 249 in CMA. It looks like this might work, but I'm not sure. When I'm angry, I "feel" angry. When I'm bewildered, I "feel" bewildered. I am understanding this "feeling" as the body consciousness of tangible data. Can we say root consciousness (greed, hatred, delusion) produces it? Can we say this feeling is informed, so to speak, by the very subtle cetasikas of greed hatred and delusion and has both a general nature that I can recognize as g, h, or d and also a unique nature that is slightly different every time. What I'm getting at is the very common experience of bewilderment and recognizing it as such. You don't need to have special wisdom to do this. Other forms of moha are trickier. Larry ps: In english "ignorance" can also mean "ignoring" or simply "not knowing". How would you classify these two? 28286 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 6:11pm Subject: Re: SN-Introduction Notes Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi James > > In one of your earlier email, if my memory did not fail me, you > indicate that it should not include the commentary. Of course I would not want to spoil one of your New Year's Wishes! (Wow…and most others just wish to lose weight! ;-)) The SN contains extensive commentary, most from Buddhaghosa, and I would of course not limit Sarah to quoting these as I plan to quote many of these notes myself. Many of them give valuable background information which brings some particular suttas to life. Sarah made that one promise to me you are recalling in jest. I know the difference between a joke and being serious. Her joke and my joke in response have no bearing on this discussion. It is without rules and Sarah and anyone can post what they will. I'm sorry if our little joking banter caused you any undue stress or concern. I sincerely hope that you will join in any future discussions in this thread because I really enjoy your unique and flexible perspectives! Metta, James Ps. Please wait a while for the whole thing to begin. This is a bad time of year to start such an endeavor (sorry) and I think that many members are unnecessarily concerned. Relax and take it one day at a time. The whole thing will unfold like a beautiful lotus; I am sure. 28287 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 6:40pm Subject: Re: Coming on Too Strong Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina (and all) - > > It occurs to me that in some recent posts I may well have "come on too > strongly" with regard to minor elements of Abhidhamma This is such a sweet post! A sign of true egolessness. However, sometimes I feel those Abhidhamma lovers need to have their chains shaked! And I think that I am glad when they shake my chains also!! ;-)) We all need that on a daily basis. My culminated posts about the Abhidhamma make yours seem like love letters, and I am not guilty about those one bit. We can all be friends and we can all slap each other's face once in a while!! ;-)) What's friendship for? ;-)) Metta, James 28288 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 8:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Hi James, Christine, Howard, KenO & All, > James' Note: I began a study of the SN because, unlike Howard, I have > never read through the entire collection (Howard has some years on me > though, so I am trying to catch up! ;-)) This is a daunting task > because it has 2,072 pages! From these introductory notes, it can be > seen that the SN has plenty of material for a serious meditator like > myself and material which will appeal to the Abhidhamma folks. I > would like to invite everyone to study the SN with me, Sarah, Howard, > and Christine, and post material with comments or questions, as you > see fit. The true purpose of any sangha is to encourage each other > to learn and practice the dhamma. We are together in the pursuit of > knowledge and wisdom with the dhamma as our teacher. .... This is a very nice message and good start and thank you for the extracts from the intro. I’ve said to James that I’m very content to follow his lead and I know he’s giving it plenty of consideration. It won’t be boring. As he says, we can relax and threads can and will take on a life of their own as usual and never need die;-). Christine, so glad you’re happy to contribute - this will be a great help. I hope other Cooranites are taking note as well;-). It’s a good idea of James’s to start with the intro. So do you have any comments on the intro extracts he selected or have any other passages in the intro you’d like to bring to our attention? With all James’s psychic abilities --;-)--, he’ll know just when to start posting from the first chapter, SN1, SN2 and so on and I think we can follow this lead to then comment on his suttas and ‘take’ on them or introduce others from the same chapter we wish to share. Of course some will say it’s too fast and others that it’s too slow, as Larry is used to;-) James is an imaginative and skilful teacher, so it’ll work out fine, I know. Pls go ahead and post the link to the article you mentioned off-list - it may be interesting for others too. We’ll all find our own favourite sections in due course and of course they probably won’t be the same;-) KenO, I’m very interested to read the sections I’m not at all familiar with and look at the commentary notes which BB supplies. I won’t be translating anything (I’m not a Pali expert or reader - just an occasional term at best), but will certainly be quoting -- and encouraging others to do so --from the comy notes as often as I can get away with;-) If she’s not too busy, Nina or others with Pali expertise may be able to supplement these with any other key points for consideration. It’ll be great to have your contributions in any form or kind. Metta, Sarah p.s Jon pointed out that it might be less confusing if we use the same way of reference that BB uses in his notes. (Jon, hope this means you'll be contributing too;-)) So, SN 1:21 would be used rather than SN1.21(1) [to refer to ‘A Sword’ at SN, Sagathavagga, Devatasamyutta, 111 A Sword, 21(1) A Sword, p.100] ATI would use 1.21, so 1:21 is easy for ATI users and links. Anyway, there’re bound to be some variations as others join in and we don’t need to be too rigid or correct as I see it. To repeat: >The true purpose of any sangha is to encourage each other > to learn and practice the dhamma. We are together in the pursuit of > knowledge and wisdom with the dhamma as our teacher. ==================================== 28289 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 8:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Coming on Too Strong Hi James & Howard, --- buddhatrue wrote: > This is such a sweet post! A sign of true egolessness. .... I agree. I learn a lot from your example, Howard, and look forward to learning plenty more. I also greatly appreciated the reminders in Jon’s post to Azita and the need for continual wise friendship, hearing of reminders, consideration and development of panna. It’s never enough. ..... >However, > sometimes I feel those Abhidhamma lovers need to have their chains > shaked! .... Oh no! Rattle, rattle.... .... >And I think that I am glad when they shake my chains > also!! ;-)) We all need that on a daily basis. My culminated posts > about the Abhidhamma make yours seem like love letters, .... He’s got a point there, Howard;-) .... >and I am not > guilty about those one bit. We can all be friends and we can all > slap each other's face once in a while!! ;-)) What's friendship > for? ;-)) .... Well, maybe not to end up with a stinging face;-( I appreciate the point about questioning and reminders and pointing out the treasure. The skill, of course, is to find the ways (often requiring more attention and consideration) to do so without causing unnecessary dismay which we may have no inkling of. Plenty for me to learn too, and I learn a lot from writing to you, James and other friends here;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 28290 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Any thoughts : To Alan Dear Alan, other Veda-leaning members and All Alan wrote: "Buddhism was founded by Gautama Sakya Muni, the rebel child of Hinduism. It sprang up directly from Hinduism. Buddha never thought of founding a new religion. He made no new discovery. He was proclaiming only the ancient and pure form of religion which had prevailed among the Hindus." Alan, you can't be serious! I have problem understanding what you wrote above. By the way, where did you get that information? Did your Hindu gurus teach you? Or did you make them up yourself? In particular, I was puzzled by your claim that the Buddha made no new discovery. What do you mean by that claim? The Buddha has taught the following key principles. 1. The Process of Dependent Origination and Its Reverse Process (Paticcasammuppaado with both Anulomakathaa and Pa.tilomakathaa). 2. The Four Noble Truths as described in the First Discourse (Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam). 3. Three Characteristics of Nature, namely, Impermanence, Misery and Selflessness (Anattaa / Anaatman). Alan, do you mean that the above principle teachings of Gotama the Buddha can be found in Veda and Upanishads? If so, I would be extremely interested to know the relevant references in those works so that I can check them for myself. By the way, I don't mind reading them in Sanskrit. In fact, I would prefer to consult the Sanskrit originals of those works. Just give me the relevant references, please. If you or your Hindu gurus could not locate the above principle teachings of Gotama the Buddha in Veda and Upanishads, are you willing to admit your mistake regarding your claim? What was your motivation for having made the claim that the Buddha made no new discovery. Alan, as you declared yourself as a Hindu, you are in a better position to know the meaning of self or Self in line with Veda and Upanishadic teachings. If so, what are the meanings of self / Self in Vedas and Upanishads? I hope that I had not burdened you with impossible questions. By the way, I do not debate with you. I merely exchange facts and information with you. Thanking you in advance. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Bell" wrote: Dear Suan, Many thanks for the reply. Some further comments. higlighted with **** >The whole purpose of the Buddha's teachings is to help us break >ourselves free from Samsaaro. **** this is the same as the fundamental vedic beliefs which arose from the the Upanishads. >The Buddha discovered how to end his own Samsaaro, and taught others >to do likewise. That is to say, he can no longer be reborn. peace and light, Alan 28291 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 10:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Hello to all in the Samyutta study corner, I had mentioned off-list that Leigh Brassington had put forward his personal impressions in single line notes of the suttas in the Samyutta Nikaya - not to suggest we should follow his lead, but because of my usual need to follow some 'method'. :-) (Maybe there IS something to this 'accumulations' business. :-)) Here is the link to the comments by Leigh Brassington - http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6774/studysn.htm When I read the sections of the intro posted by James, I remember smiling and thinking we might turn out to be a little like the ancient Bhikkhus who comfortably accepted the differences of emphasis they were attracted to in the Teachings. At the time, a (seven year old?) arahat encouraged them to find support with those who had similar inclinations, and arranged their lodgings to group 'same with same'. [not sure which sutta, or about which arahat.] metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: It's a good idea of > James's to start with the intro. So do you have any comments on the intro > extracts he selected or have any other passages in the intro you'd like to > bring to our attention? With all James's psychic abilities --;-)--, he'll > know just when to start posting from the first chapter, SN1, SN2 and so on > and I think we can follow this lead to then comment on his suttas and > `take' on them or introduce others from the same chapter we wish to share. > Of course some will say it's too fast and others that it's too slow, as > Larry is used to;-) James is an imaginative and skilful teacher, so it'll > work out fine, I know. Pls go ahead and post the link to the article you > mentioned off-list - it may be interesting for others too. We'll all find > our own favourite sections in due course and of course they probably won't > be the same;-) > 28292 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 11:18pm Subject: Latent tendecies Hi All I need to clarify latent tendecies. Suan in his message 25480 Anusaya-s are merely eradicatable cetasikas (maggehi pahaatabba cetasika-s). Even though the term "anusaya" sounds invisibly lying somewhere, this is only for figurative purposes. That is to say, they are nowhere to be found outside unhealthy consciousnesses (akusala cittaani) that arise in the present. When I read the survey of Paramattha Dhamma A. Sujin said that "When the votthabbana-citta has fallen away, the sixth vithi-citta, the kusala-citta, the akusala-citta, or the mahakiriya-citta of the lokiya type, would arise to perform javana-kicca in a series of seven citta, thereby accumulating latent tendencies in continuation. As stated in the passage "included in the word "citta" are kusala-citta, akusala-citta and mahakiriya-citta of the lokiya type. Called "citta" because it accumulates latent tendencies in continuation, with the efficiency of the javana-vithi." Could someone pse clarify whether kusala citta has latent tendency. kind rgds Ken O 28293 From: Eddie Lou Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 11:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How To Get Through The Samsara ( 10 ) Thanks, Christine. Metta, Eddie Lou --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi Eddie, > > When searching for a particular number message, > Christine 28294 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexperienced rupas Howard Christmas just wouldn't be complete without a post on this long-standing thread of ours, now would it! --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - It is reasonable to attribute existence to what is observable, for its existence is verifiable by observation. What is not observable, if it existed, would have that existence be unverifiable. To me, I consider something nonexistent if it is not observable. [I didn't say "not observed"; I said "not observable"] Jon: It seems to me that your position in fact is that the existence/non-existence of rupas depends on their being observed/not observed (i.e., not on their being observable/not observable). If I have misunderstood, perhaps you could give an example of a rupa that is 'existent' because of being observable, while not being actually observed. Howard: There is no limit to "possible" unexperiencable things. One of these is "the self". It is not provable that there *is* no world self, no Brahman. But it is not observable, and I do not accept its existence. As far as I am concerned, the burden of proof is for the existence of something, not its nonexistence. Jon: But we are not talking about "possible" unexperiencable things here, we are talking about certain instances of rupas of a kind that are experienced continuously. These rupas are not 'in principle unobservable' in the sense that "the self" you talk about here is unobservable. Howard: What is in principle unobservable can never be proved to exist. I do not accept such alleged existents. You, however, are certainly free to do so. Jon: By 'unobservable' here do you mean un observable by you, Howard, or unobservable by every being including a Buddha? If you mean unobservable by you, Howard, this would have to include anything that is not the (single) present object of your consciousness. In that case, would it not follow from your line of thinking that only a single rupa ever arises in this world at a given time, that being the rupa that is currently the object of your (Howard's) experience? If you mean unobservable by the Buddha, then I think we need to keep in mind that the scope of a Buddha's knowledge (buddha-visaya) is one of the acinteyya/unfathomables. It would in my view be a mistake to assume that this matter is 'in principle unknowable' by a Buddha. Jon PS I notice in post to Ken O you say that one of the necessary conditions for the arising of rupas is sentience (consciousness?). This is a new one to me. Would you mind sharing the source of this information (or is it a purely personal view)? Thanks. 28295 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:21am Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not Hi Sukin and Sarah, Thank you for prompting me to contribute to the discussions but I'm still finding it hard to string a few words together. I'm suffering a general sluggishness and dejection that could be due to any of several reasons. For example, I am fat and weak from festive- season gluttony and lack of exercise (terrible surf lately). I know, from experience, that the longer I remain off- list the harder it is to get back on. So I will, at least, apologise for muffing the baton change. :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Ken, > > I am happy that you appreciate my post and the starting of this > thread. :-) > Tomorrow I will be a bit busy and the day after I go for a short > vacation. So can I pass on the baton to you. ;-) > > Happy holidays to everyone. > > Metta, > Sukin. > > 28296 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:48am Subject: Pointless Dear Group, The 93 degree heat and 84% humidity has made all the local blow flies think about leaving the sensual attractions of the cow pats, and finding a nice little female, settling down for a minute or two and raising a couple of hundred kids each. All generations then congregate on my wide cool back verandah, just waiting for a member of the 'coalition of the willing', Rusty the Dog, to cause the door to be opened. Then they all zoom in and start battering at the insides of the windows (to get out where they just were) while buzzing and cursing at the top of their voices. I open windows and doors and try to 'usher' them out. They totally ignore me and get caught in the spiders web high up in the corner. Extension ladder is over at my brothers' house, so they are doomed. I think about how stupid they are, why rush in through an opening and not have the capacity to even retrace ones steps (err, flaps)? Poor flies. Born without a say in the form they take. Anyone see anye "meaning" in the life of a fly? what does it strive for? what choice or control does it have? what plans does it, or could it, make? It is just a fly. It does what flies do. It is born, it grows older. It mates and leaves descendents behind. It dies, or often, it is killed. Poor thing, I thought. How pointless is the life of a fly. Not like humans.... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28297 From: Sarah Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 4:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) - and other questions Hi Ken O, Thx for the keen Qs - I'm not sure if they were all answered, so I'll add a little more: --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > That some things might last for a while? - When I see this I laugh > bc I am also like that, I do have the tendency to hope some things to > last for a while, just a litter longer even though I know all is > going away. .... We hope and think they last while there is no precise understanding of realities, I think. So ignorance leads to attachment and so on. ..... > I got three basic qn. In the Lobha cittas there are those > disconnected with wrong view, since they are not sobhana cittas, > definitely it will not mean right view. What do it mean? .... Attachment, but without any wrong view at the moment of attaching. Like now, liking what we see, hear or smell, for example, but without any idea of it being a thing or person or lasting etc. The subtle and not so subtle wrong views are always popping in at the time or afterwards, however;-( .... > Secondly is the question of the promptness of ignorance - Under the > Comprehensive of Abdhidhamma translated by B.Bodhi, in the book, > Visud maintain that the distinction in terms of prompting is omitted > because neither alternative is applicable. They state since these > two cittas lack natural acutness, they cannot be described as > unprompted; and since there is no occassion when one deliberatly > tries to arouse them, they cannot be described as prompted. .... Just looking at BB’s note now, I see this info comes from the Vibhavini-Tika and the Maha-Tika to the Visuddhimagga. It’s on good authority. Also, if it were otherwise, it would be said, like for other mental states, I think. In Vibhava-A (Dispeller 627) and Vism XV11, 52, ignorance is referred to as ‘prompted and unprompted’, but this is in the context of D.O. with ignorance as a root. .... >Ledi > Sayadaw, however rejects this position, hold these cittas to be > exclusively unprompted. He contends: "Since these two cittas occur > in beings naturally, by their own intrinsic nature; they need not be > aroused by any inducement or expedient means. They always occur > without trouble or difficulty. Therefore they are exclusively > unprompted and this should be seen as the reason the distinction by > way of prompting is not mentioned here" .... I can’t say, but as a general principal, I’d always follow the ancient commentaries and Tikas accepted and handed down from the times of great authority. .... > Thirdly, the Comprehensive Manual of Abidhidhamma states that wrong > view and conceit are contrary to each other, hence they cannot > co-exist in the same citta. The explanation is not adequate, could > you provide a better one. .... Did you see the other posts I indicated? Also see the chapters on these in ‘Cetasikas’. As RobK indicated, differenct characteristics and objects. Wrong view being concerned with one’s understanding or way of seeing things - eg seeming to last, a thing etc. Conceit is concerned with one’s importance, comparing, caring how one is seen etc. I’m so impressed at all your useful reading - Survey, Rupas, Abh. Sangaha and comy etc Thanks for the encouragement. Metta, Sarah ======= 28298 From: Sarah Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 5:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: moha Hi Dan & RobK, Good to see your discussion: --- rjkjp1 wrote: R:> > > (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter) > > > "it is ignorance since it causes beings > > > to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it > > > is ignorance since it darts among those things which > > > do not actually exist [i.e.men, women] and > > > since it does not dart among those things that do > > > exist [i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, > > > paramattha dhammas]." > > D:> > I wonder what "darts among" means... R:> Dear Dan, yes from the Udanaatthakatha translated by Masefield. > Good question about 'darts' , I haven't looked at the pali, so > better not guess:) .... dart = javaapeti.* cf Vibh-a (Dispeller 617): “.....And it causes to be unknown (avidita) the meaning of heap in the aggregates, the meaning of extent in the bases, the meaning of void in the elements, the meaning of reality in the truths, the meaning of predominance in the faculties, thus it is ‘ignorance’. It makes beings hurry on in all the kinds of generation, destiny, existence, stations of consciousness, abodes of beings in the endless round of rebirths, thus it is ‘ignorance’. It hurries on *(javati)* in ‘woman’, ‘man’, etc that are non-existent (avijjamaana) in the highest sense, it does not hurry on in the existent aggregates, etc, thus it is ‘ignorance’. Furthermore it is ignorance because it conceals the dependent origination and dependently-originated states which are the [physical] basis and the object of eye-consciousness and so on.” ***** *???? javaapeti = javati + apeti ?????* Javati Vedic ju (p. 280) javate intr. to hurry, junati trs. to incite, urge: to run, hurry, hasten S I.33; J IV.213; Davs V.24; DhsA 265, pp. juta. Apeti (p. 55) [apa + i, cp. Gr. a)/peimi, Lat. abeo, Goth. af--iddja] to go away, to disappear D I.180 (upeti pi apeti pi); J I.292; Sn 1143 (= nc apagacchanti na vijahanti Nd2 66). -- pp. apeta (q. v.). Metta, Sarah ===== 28299 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 5:36am Subject: Re: Bangkok trip --- Thanks Chris. I booked today but still have to find babysitters and get a hanko (seal) from the head of department to be excused from a big meeting.\ will try. rob In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > This is an excerpt from a letter from Betty, and, as far as I > understand, these arrangements still stand. > "Than Achaan has set aside the following dates for discussions at the > Foundation: Thursday-Saturday, January 29-31, from 2-4pm each day, > 28300 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58 Feminine/masculine and humor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > Ahhh, *now* I understand!! Feminine faculty = pa~n~na, and Masculine > Faculty = avijja!! If only that had been made clear at the outset, there would > have been no confusion on my part! Many thanks for the clarification. ;-) _____ Dear Howard, 'But you know the job was done right, and, after all, quality costs a bit extra...' Rob 28301 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Hi, all - The 1st sutta of the 1st chapter of SN, Crossing Over the Flood, is very short and is also one of my favorites. I think it is quite important. The ATI link for it, in case there is any interest in beginning at the beginning, is the following: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-001.html BTW, this sutta might provoke some interesting discussions on the "no-control" aspect of anattata. It is also relevant, I think, vis-a-vis the Taoist/Zen notion of "wu wei" (actionless action), and, mainly, it deals, I think, with a dead-center-important practice issue. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28302 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexperienced rupas Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/26/03 2:59:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > Christmas just wouldn't be complete without a post on this > long-standing thread of ours, now would it! ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Merry Xmas to you too, Jon! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------ > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > It is reasonable to attribute existence to what is observable, > for its existence is verifiable by observation. What is not > observable, if it existed, would have that existence be unverifiable. > To me, I consider something nonexistent if it is not observable. [I > didn't say "not observed"; I said "not observable"] > > Jon: > It seems to me that your position in fact is that the > existence/non-existence of rupas depends on their being observed/not > observed (i.e., not on their being observable/not observable). > > If I have misunderstood, perhaps you could give an example of a rupa > that is 'existent' because of being observable, while not being > actually observed. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The issue is one of verification, Jon. Only what is observable (or what is inferable by perfectly valid reasoning from what is observable - I certainly cede that) is verifible. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: There is no limit to "possible" unexperiencable things. > One of these is "the self". It is not provable that there *is* no > world self, no Brahman. But it is not observable, and I do not accept > its existence. As far as I am concerned, the burden of proof is for > the existence of something, not its nonexistence. > > Jon: > But we are not talking about "possible" unexperiencable things here, > we are talking about certain instances of rupas of a kind that are > experienced continuously. These rupas are not 'in principle > unobservable' in the sense that "the self" you talk about here is > unobservable. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, here you beg the entire question! I agree that what are " experienced continuously" exist. They are the content of experience. No further verification is needed. Let me clarify: You seem to assume an external auditory or visual etc entity, let's call it an E-rupa (for external rupa), and you assume an internal act of consciousness that somehow makes "contact" with this E-rupa, and the result is a mindstate involving that consciousness apprehending an arammana which we might call an I-rupa (internal rupa). I say that it is the I-rupa that is experienced, with the mindstate being the act of experience. The I-rupa's fleeting existence is directly verified by its being directly observed. The alleged E-rupa is merely hypothesized. It is a hypothesized shadow lurking beneath actual experience. Moreover, if it exists, it is *not* the object of the consciousness, and it cannot be. It is the E-rupa that is unobservable - unobservable in principle, because it is not the arammana. ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: What is in principle unobservable can never be proved to > exist. I do not accept such alleged existents. You, however, are > certainly free to do so. > > Jon: > By 'unobservable' here do you mean un observable by you, Howard, or > unobservable by every being including a Buddha? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: As I've said several times before, by unobservable, I mean not able to be observed by any being, ever, under any circumstance. ------------------------------------------------- > > If you mean unobservable by you, Howard, this would have to include > anything that is not the (single) present object of your > consciousness. In that case, would it not follow from your line of > thinking that only a single rupa ever arises in this world at a given > time, that being the rupa that is currently the object of your > (Howard's) experience? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: My previous answer makes this question moot. ------------------------------------------------ > > If you mean unobservable by the Buddha, then I think we need to keep > in mind that the scope of a Buddha's knowledge (buddha-visaya) is one > of the acinteyya/unfathomables. It would in my view be a mistake to > assume that this matter is 'in principle unknowable' by a Buddha. > > Jon > > PS I notice in post to Ken O you say that one of the necessary > conditions for the arising of rupas is sentience (consciousness?). > This is a new one to me. Would you mind sharing the source of this > information (or is it a purely personal view)? Thanks. > > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28303 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:52am Subject: anapanasati 8 d anapanasati 8 d We read about the fourth jhana, and in this jhana no breathing occurs (Vis. VIII, 209). This shows again how subtle this meditation subject is, it becomes hardly perceptible when one is more advanced, and then not at all perceptible. If we would try now to notice breathing, how could we plan to notice it with kusala citta? This shows that the very beginning is already most difficult. One may believe that breath is a concept, but now I will just repeat a Co. passage to the first tetrad: The other three tetrads refer respectively to the contemplation of feelings in feelings, citta in citta, dhammas in dhammas. As we have read, the first three tetrads deal with calm and insight and the fourth deals with insight alone. ***** Nina. 28304 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Coming on Too Strong, shaking chains Hi James, You made me laugh, but you are right about shaking the chains, come on then!!! I try not to cry :-)) but I cannot promise, who knows what happens? Slapping in the face is too painful for me, but I know from where you are coming. It is a Zen idea. Nina. op 26-12-2003 03:40 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > This is such a sweet post! A sign of true egolessness. However, > sometimes I feel those Abhidhamma lovers need to have their chains > shaked! And I think that I am glad when they shake my chains > also!! ;-)) We all need that on a daily basis. My culminated posts > about the Abhidhamma make yours seem like love letters, and I am not > guilty about those one bit. We can all be friends and we can all > slap each other's face once in a while!! ;-)) What's friendship > for? ;-)) 28305 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasati 8 b, a file. Hi Jon, I would not know how to make that single file. How should I proceed? Nina. op 25-12-2003 10:03 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > I'm finding very useful the re-run through this series. Lots of > interesting detail and good references. Is there any chance of a > consolidated (i.e. single file) version at the end? 28306 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samyutta Nikaya discussions (was Question on ego and self ..) Hi Sarah, yes, easy. I need the Pali but may need Jim's help when he is back from Orilla. Those signs are so difficult to get straight. I also try to get B.B. in the monk's univerity bookshop, Mahamakut, Bgk. I have the Co in Thai. Nina. op 25-12-2003 13:39 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > RobK or Nina, would this -SN1,38(8)- be clear enough for someone using the > PTS transl? 28307 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Coming on Too Strong Dear Howard, I really appreciate your sincerity and your openmindedness to study Abhidhamma. Well, Lodewijk also feels frustrated about Abhidhamma and he gives vent to this. But now, instead of talking about events and persons, let us consider the matter dhamma-wise. It is your kusala citta to apologize, and the Buddha said that we should forgive each other. Sarah once said that if she had to confess to her coreligionists all her faults it would be a long list. I should also bow my head, and ask forgiveness, I have a long list! What you wrote, coming on too strongly, has happened, there were conditions. Different reactions from those who read it also occurred, it also has happened. It is no more. The way things happen is good, because we can keep on learning from such events. What are the cittas like when we are upset? A lot to learn again. Clinging to self and conceit, these are all subjects of which understanding can be developed. I like to quote Suan again: We should remember: a long term project, ups and downs. The Buddha gave us the tools in our hands to develop understanding and we should be grateful to the Buddha in the first place. And that is, as we often discussed, a meditation for every occasion. What would we be without his teachings. On your way you will meet again many incomprehensible points but it is so useful to discuss them among friends. I like to be reminded by my friends in the Dhamma to consider and reconsider myself deep points of the dhamma, there are so many points I have not considered enough. Questions are very helpful to me, I benefit from them. Of course, you are also among my good friends in the Dhamma. May we all pay attention to our long time project with gratefulness to the Buddha, with warmest regards, Nina. op 25-12-2003 22:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > It occurs to me that in some recent posts I may well have "come on too > strongly" with regard to minor elements of Abhidhamma I have problems with. 28308 From: Htoo Naing Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:40am Subject: How To get Through The Samsara ( 11 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Someone who is in the practice of Mahasatipatthana ( special mindfulness ) has to have full understanding of what is happening at each moment. Whatever he is doing, he has to be aware of what is happening. This clear understanding of Dhamma is called Sati Sampajanna ( clear understanding ). While he is practising sitting in meditation, he is being aware of what exactly he is doing and what is arising at each moment. When he considers that he wants to stop sitting and wants standing, he knows that he wants them. Then his mindfulness on breath is shifted to his body position. He knows that he wants to unfold his legs. That means he knows arising of Cittas that have a wish to change his body position. This Citta or consciousness causes Cittaja ( caused by Citta ) Rupa. Then he unfolds and notes that he unfolds his legs. He knows he wants to put his soles of feet to put on the floor. Then he put them on the floor and he knows that he put them on the floor. He knows that he wants to sit on his feet and then he sits on his soles of feet. He knows that he wants to straighten his legs and then he straighten them and he notes that he stands there. He knows he wants to put his hands by his body and then he puts them by his sides. He knows that his eyes are closed. Now he wants to open his eyes. He knows that he wants to open his eyes. Then he opens his eyes. He notices that he sees the floor. He knows that he knows his seeing of the floor. He is aware of his wish to walk forward. Then he walks forward. In his walking, he is fully conscious to all his actions. He knows that he is moving forward. He knows that he wants to lift his right foot, then he lifts it and he knows that he is lifting his right foot. He knows that he wants to swing his right leg forward then he swings his right leg forward. He knows he is going to put his right heel on the floor then he knows that he put his right heel on the floor. Then he knows he wants to shift his axis of body weight to his right leg by standing on right leg. Then he stands on his right leg and he notices that his left foot is lifting up. He knows that he wants to swing his left leg forward and then he swings his left leg forward. He recognizes that his left heel is going to put on the floor and then he put his left heel on the floor. Then he stands on his left leg. He notices that his right foot is going to be lifted up. He is fully conscious to all his movements. He knows all the process of his walking. When he stands on one leg, his mind sometimes moves to his sight that he notes that he sees the floor and he notes that he knows what his mind is doing even during his walking. He knows while he is moving forward. He also knows while he is moving back. In between walking, there are a lot of pauses. At the time of pause, he notices that he is looking straight ahead and he is aware of his looking straight ahead. When he is not looking straight ahead and looking elsewhere, he knows that he is looking somewhere else instead of looking forward straight ahead. He has been practising walking meditation for an hour and at the end of his walking meditation section, he notices that he wants to drink water. Then he walks to where there is water. He is fully conscious while he is moving to where there is water. A bottle of water and a glass are on the table in the room. Now he stands by the table. He knows that he wants to bend his right arm. Then he bends his arm and then his right hand is outstretched to reach the water bottle. He knows that he stretches his hand. He wants to unscrew the lid and he does it and he knows that he is doing. He wants to grasp the bottle, he grasps and then he pours water into the glass consciously. Water is flowing. He hears the sound of dropping of water into the glass. He wants to stop pouring and then he stops pouring. Put down the bottle. Take the water-ful glass. He is putting his mindfulness on his movement that he is carring the glass. Want to take to the mouth, does that, want to hold mouthful of water, holds it, wants to swallows it, swallows it and he does these till the glass is empty. He wants to put down the glass on the table. He does that consciously. He wants to change his dress. He goes to the wardrobe and takes a casual pair of dressing with conscious mind. Hw knows all the process of changing his dressing through out. He wants to undress, he then undresses. He wants to put on a new shirt, then he put it on. He changes his old pair of troussers with a new one. He knows all the process of arising of his wishing mind, all his actions and he is fully aware of his changing of dressing. Then he goes to the kitchen for his breakfast. He practises walking meditation while moving to the kitchen. He stands by the table and then he sits on the chair. He knows that he wish to eat. He knows that his hand is going to stretch and take the fork and the knife. During the process of his eating, he recognizes all mind that arise one after another and notes that all his movement that are all dictated by mind. When he put the food into his mouth, he notes that it is put inot. When he chews, he notes that he chews. When he is going to swallow he notices that he wants to swallow what he has chewed. Then he swallows and he knows that he swallows. He finishes his breakfast with a glass of water to clean up his throat. Again, he is fully aware of all his mind and bodily movements through out his drinking process. When he goes to the toilet, he knows that he want to pass motion or he want to defecate. He notes all the way down to the toilet that he is moving toward the toilet. He notes that he removes his troussers and pants and then he sits on the comode. He knows his wish to release. Then he releases. When he hears sound, he notes all he hears as he hears. When he passes water or urinates, he notes that he is passing water or urinates. When he cleans he knows that he is cleaning. When he draws water he knows that he draws. He stands up after finishing everything toileting. He walks out and he notes that he walks out. He is fully aware of all his bodily actions and positions. When he stands he knows that he is standing. When he walks he knows that he is walking. And when he sits he is fully aware of that he is sitting. When he lies down on the bed he knows that he is lying down. In between arising of all these consciousness, he also notes that he is touching with so and so such as to the floor, to the sofa, to the carpet, to the chair, to the table and so on. When he wakes up in the morning, he knows that he wakes up and he is being aware of his surroundings and notices any object that arise at that time. He knows that he is awake. In the day time, he is fully aware of all his actions. He knows when he speaks that he is speaking. When he hearing someone's speech, he notices that he hears that and he also knows that he is thinking for his response to that speech. When he speak, he knows that he is speaking. And when he is silent again, he notes that he is being silent. When he goes to bed, he notes that he is going to bed. When he lies on the bed, he knows that he is lying on the bed. He is noting all his movements whenever they arise and all his mind movements whenever they arise. When he is tired of the day and he is just going into sleep, he knows that he is exhausted and tired and he relaxes all his body and mind and then he passes into his sleep. When he wakes up, he knows that he wakes up. When he is thinking he knows that he is thinking for the day what to do as a plan and he knows that he is planning that. In this way, the meditator has to be fully aware of what he is experiencing all the time. This Sati Sampajanna ( mindfulness with clear understanding ) has to be developed at each moment and everyday till he dies. All these are just method and it is not a map. If someone can practise in this way for 7 years, he will enlighten ( becomes an Arahat )or at least he will becomes an Anagam or non-returner. Non-returner means he will not return to Kama Bhumi that is human world, hell beings world, animals world, ghosts world, demons world, Deva worlds. Let alone 7 years, 6 years practice will help him to attain Arahatta Magga or at least Anagami Magga. Let alone 6 years, 5 years, 4 years, 3 years, 2 years or even 1 year practice will leads him to attain Nana ( wisdom ). Let alone 1 year, 7 months practice will lead him to attainment of wisdom. Let alone 7 months, 6 months will suffice to attain wisdom. Let alone 6 months, 5 months, 4 months, 3 months, 2 months, 1 month or even 2 weeks will suffice for him to attain wisdom if he follows this method and he has fulfiled all the perfections to get through the Samsara. This is a part of the method Mahasatipatthana ( special mindfulness practice ), this alone is sufficient for the genuine practice. But for those who are lack of a good knowledge in Dhamma will need to learn much much more. And they may even need a full map with complete interpretation of all land marks and the method of how to approach to the destination. May you all get through the Samsara in your shortest way. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing Journey To Nibbana JourneyToNibbana@g... htootintnaing@y... 28309 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > The 1st sutta of the 1st chapter of SN, Crossing Over the Flood, is > very short and is also one of my favorites. I think it is quite important. The > ATI link for it, in case there is any interest in beginning at the beginning, > is the following: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-001.html > BTW, this sutta might provoke some interesting discussions on the > "no-control" aspect of anattata. It is also relevant, I think, vis- a-vis the > Taoist/Zen notion of "wu wei" (actionless action), and, mainly, it deals, I think, > with a dead-center-important practice issue. Yea, this is a very good sutta. It is deceptively simple and deep in meaning. I think the Buddha is saying that not by standing still and not by struggling he crossed the flood (flood of ignorance, samsara, craving, etc.). "Note 3: The Buddha's brief reply points to the middle way (majjhima patipada) in its most comprehensive range, both practical and philosophical. To make the implication clear Spk enumerates seven dyads: (i) "halting" by way of defilements, one sinks; "straining" by way of volitional formations, one gets swept away; (ii) by way of craving and views, one sinks; by way of the other defilements, one gets swept away; (iii) by way of craving, one sinks, by way of views, one gets swept away; (iv) by way of the eternalist view, one sinks; by way of the annihilationist view, one gets swept away; (v) by way of slackness one sinks, by way of restlessness one gets swept away; (vi) by way of devotion to sensual pleasures one sinks, by way of devotion to self-mortification one gets swept away; (vii) by way of all unwholesome volitional formations one sinks, by way of all mundane wholesome volitional formations one gets swept away." I think this does relate greatly to the principal of Wu Wei, selfless action. However, wu wei has a different emphasis in Taoism in that it can be practiced in any activity, even cutting up a dead cow (an example used by Chaung Tzu and how the knife of the wu wei butcher remained sharp). Wu Wei to the Buddha would still have to be performed under certain strict standards, precepts, etc. The difficulty of determining The Middle Way is very strong in today's world. The world is void of strict austerities so the whole standard has shifted more to the pleasure side in most people's minds. For example, smoking just one pack of cigarettes instead of ten isn't following the Middle Way! ;-)) What we might consider the Middle Way the Buddha probably wouldn't. What do you think? > With metta, > Howard Metta, James 28310 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:50am Subject: SN-Devatasamyutta Hi All, At Savatthi. Standing to one side, that devata recited this verse in the presence of the Blessed One: "Those who dwell deep in the forest, Peaceful, leading the holy life, Eating but a single meal a day: Why is their complexion so serene?* [The Blessed One:] "They do not sorrow over the past, Nor do they hanker for the future. They maintain themselves with what is present: Hence their complexion is so serene. "Through hankering for the future, Through sorrowing over the past, Fools dry up and wither away Like a green reed cut down." SN I, 10 *Note 18: Spk: This verse was spoken by an earth-bound deva who dwelt in that forest. Each day he would see the bhikkhus who inhabited the forest sitting in meditation after their meal. As they sat, their minds would become unified and serene, and the serenity of their minds would become manifest in their complexion (vanna). Puzzled that they could have such serene faces while living under these austere conditions, the deva came to the Buddha to inquire into the case. The facial complexion (mukhavanna) or complexion of the skin (chavivanna) is understood to indicate success in meditation. James' Note: The first chapter of the Samyutta Nikaya is the Devatasamyutta "Connected Discources with Devatas. This is an interesting chapter because the discourses reveal the personalities and interests of the devas in contrast to the deep wisdom and vision of the Buddha. The devas, being heavenly beings, have joy and delight as a mainstay and so they approach the Buddha predominately as curiosity seekers. Because they exist in a heavenly sphere, the Buddha greatly emphases The Middle Path when discussing the Dhamma with them to illustrate that their existence is a type of extreme and that delight in heaven, or torture in hell, are not conducive to following the middle path to Nibbana. Because they are from a heavenly realm, predominately their mode of speech is in verse and so the Buddha replies in verse as well. The above sutta reveals what is noticeable to this particular deva, how the Buddha's monks look. Since devas have luminous bodies which give off light, they would be interested in why certain humans can have a similar type of appearance at times. The Buddha's answer draws the deva away from just thinking about their appearance and thinking about the internal wisdom that causes it. Comments? Perhaps someone else would like to post a sutta from the Devatasamyutta which also reveals the personality/interest of the devas in contrast to the deep wisdom of the Buddha? Metta, James 28311 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 11:16am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hello all, 1. One thing (trivial perhaps) that I notice translators differ on, is the gender of Devas. Bhikkhu Bodhi invests this one with a masculine gender, whereas Thanissaros' translation makes her female. Is there anything known about gender issues among the devas? And does it matter? After all, only humans ordain, and devas in general have their own power and respect. 2. Interesting that the Buddha says (in Bhikkhu Bodhi's trans.) "By not halting, friend, and by not straining I crossed the flood." I think this might have raised a question in the minds of the listeners as it seems opposed to everyday rural behaviour - e.g. when the small creek at the back of my property is in flood and I need to cross it. I hold onto a tree trunk, slide my legs through the current until I've gone far enough but can still stand upright, make sure of my footing, take a step and grab for another support (reed or overhanging branch), before repeating the process. It is literally by straining and halting and finding a footing that I cross the flood. It is the safest way when there is a strong current from the run-off of heavy rain. But the Buddha is making a point of saying this common-sense way is not the way he chose - "When I came to a standstill, friend, then I sank; but when I struggled, then I got swept away. It is in this way, friend, that by not halting and by not straining I crossed the flood" You can't control what happens in a flooding stream. You can't plan to go directly across. And it would be disaster to just 'go with the flow'. Could the Buddha be indicating that consistent attention is needed, without fluctuating surges in energy likely to make one careless through over-confidence or anxious and doubtful? Persistence and endurance seem to be of value here, while being aware of, but not overcome by, obstacles. [A stray thought - what happened to the Raft we often hear about that we're not supposed to carry around on our shoulders once we've used it to cross the flood? Is this the no frills economy class sutta version? :-) ] What's the dead-centre-important practice issue Howard? Right Effort? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > The 1st sutta of the 1st chapter of SN, Crossing Over the Flood, is > very short and is also one of my favorites. I think it is quite important. The > ATI link for it, in case there is any interest in beginning at the beginning, > is the following: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-001.html > BTW, this sutta might provoke some interesting discussions on the > "no-control" aspect of anattata. It is also relevant, I think, vis- a-vis the > Taoist/Zen notion of "wu wei" (actionless action), and, mainly, it deals, I think, > with a dead-center-important practice issue. 28312 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Dear James, Thank you, very nicely put, Nina. op 25-12-2003 22:12 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > From these introductory notes, it can be > seen that the SN has plenty of material for a serious meditator like > myself and material which will appeal to the Abhidhamma folks. I > would like to invite everyone to study the SN with me, Sarah, Howard, > and Christine, and post material with comments or questions, as you > see fit. The true purpose of any sangha is to encourage each other > to learn and practice the dhamma. We are together in the pursuit of > knowledge and wisdom with the dhamma as our teacher. 28313 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Dear Ken O, I am in the middle of my Thai study of this subject, difficult texts from Yamaka and Co. It will take a long time to put it into understandable language, that is why you will not hear from me yet about this subject. But looking on further: in akusala citta, kusala citta and avyaakata citta, even in the magga-citta there are anusaya with the citta. As I understand: they adhere in every citta. Nina. op 26-12-2003 08:18 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...: > Hi All > > I need to clarify latent tendecies. > > Suan in his message 25480 > Anusaya-s are merely eradicatable cetasikas (maggehi pahaatabba > cetasika-s). Even though the term "anusaya" sounds invisibly lying > somewhere, this is only for figurative purposes. That is to say, they > are nowhere to be found outside unhealthy consciousnesses (akusala > cittaani) that arise in the present. > > When I read the survey of Paramattha Dhamma A. Sujin said that > "When the votthabbana-citta has fallen away, the sixth vithi-citta, > the kusala-citta, the akusala-citta, or the mahakiriya-citta of the > lokiya type, would arise to perform javana-kicca in a series of seven > citta, thereby accumulating latent tendencies in continuation. As > stated in the passage "included in the word "citta" are kusala-citta, > akusala-citta and mahakiriya-citta of the lokiya type. Called > "citta" because it accumulates latent tendencies in continuation, > with the efficiency of the javana-vithi." > > Could someone pse clarify whether kusala citta has latent tendency. > > 28314 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal Practice or not Dear Ken, don't let it get you down. I always like your posts and I am waiting for them! Nina. op 26-12-2003 11:21 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > Thank you for prompting me to contribute to the > discussions but I'm still finding it hard to string a few > words together. I'm suffering a general sluggishness and > dejection that could be due to any of several > reasons. For example, I am fat and weak from festive- > season gluttony and lack of exercise (terrible surf > lately). 28315 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 11:58am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Dear All, This modern commentary "Crossing the Flood" by Scott Fogelsong on the Oghatarana sutta may be of interest (lots on Devas) : http://scottlf.home.mindspring.com/floodsutra.htm#_ftnref29 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > 1. One thing (trivial perhaps) that I notice translators differ on, > is the gender of Devas. Bhikkhu Bodhi invests this one with a > masculine gender, whereas Thanissaros' translation makes her female. > Is there anything known about gender issues among the devas? And does > it matter? After all, only humans ordain, and devas in general have > their own power and respect. > 2. Interesting that the Buddha says (in Bhikkhu Bodhi's trans.) "By > not halting, friend, and by not straining I crossed the flood." 28316 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 0:02pm Subject: Bangkok...Bangkok... Next week I will finally take my assignment at the Brazillian Air Force Department of Engineering (DIRENG): my Dhamma Diary is being delayed due to many things I ought to adjust, bugs to be fixed up and so on. Nina and Lodenweijk will take a rest at Bangkok untill Feb... I must confess I am missing to much the usual conversations with Saras, Jon, Connie, Mike and others of these noble company of Dhamma Students. When I buy (at last!!!) a new scanner all you, good people, will look at my bootcamp photos...the wonderful mud warrior at mud waters!!!! (Los Grelos will never be the same...) Kisses and best regards to you all! Mettaya, Ícaro 28317 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 0:04pm Subject: Re: (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Dear Larry, Sorry for my late late delayed reply. I do have a thought to reply this letter. Round about this post, I got millions of posts in a day ( that was hundreds ) and I stopped all those. I tried to search the post again. Now that I found, so I reply it. This post may dig up Panatta and many discussions may follow I hope. Howard said, Panatta arises and falls away. I asked him in which way. But he failed to answer, I think. In Rupa Jhana, the object is Panatta. It is called Nimitta Panatta. 'Satta' is Panatta. It is not ultimate reality. When someone spread his Metta to Sattas, he is concentrating at Sattas which is Panatta. In Asubha Kammatthana, the corpses are Panatta. At first, the norvice saw at the corpse. Even though it was a sight, he viewed as Satta's corpse, which again is a Panatta. This Panatta again changes into Uggaha Nimitta or mental image. This again changes into Patibhaga Nimitta or counter image. All these Nimitta are called Nimitta Panatta. I hope this may work for you. With Unmlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ------------------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing, > > I don't understand how pannatta is the object of jhana. What does that > mean? Is the object of jhana a word or idea attached to a visualization > or 'sensualization' (as with touch in breath meditation)? > > In Way 50 (Satipatthana Commentary) there is the following: > > "It is said that a young bhikkhu went with a novice to get wood for > tooth-cleaners. The novice getting out of the road proceeded in front to > a place in search of wood and saw a corpse. Meditating on it he produced > the first absorption, and making the factors of the absorption a basis > for developing insight realized the first three fruitions of > arahantship, while examining the conformations [sankhare sammasanto], > and stood having laid hold of the subject of meditation for realizing > the path of full arahantship." > > L: What would be the role of pannatta in this jhana? Would there be a > visualization or similar dream-like experience? What are "the > conformations"? Thanks for your help. > > Larry > > ps: I have read several accounts of children entering absorption by > focusing on their names. Is this jhana? 28318 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Dear Howard, I am really sorry to post this late and delayed reply. I posted a delayed reply before this. I stated that you mentioned Panatta arises and falls away. Now I am clear that you did not mean it. The idea of a tree, the example you gave, you said the concept arise as in case of Pathavi ( hardness ) and falla away. I think what you talked about is Dhammaarammana or mental object. Yes, mental object arise and fall away. But Panatta does not. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo - > > In the following you ask "Could you explain more clearly how Pannatti > does arise and how it passess away?" No, I don't think I can. I don't quite > understand what you are asking for. When I think of a tree, that is the > arising of the concept 'tree', and when I cease to think of it, that is the > ceasing of hat concept. It is just the same as when I experience hardness, > that is the arising of the rupa of hardness, and when I cease to experience > it, that is the cessation of it. When I become a better vipassanika, perhaps > I will be better able to answer you. > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 2/18/03 9:27:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > > > Dear Howard, > > > > Thanks for your reply and the second post of your self-correction. > > Could you explain more clearly how Pannatti does arise and how it > > passess away? > > > > When someone says in Japanese,one who knows it understands it.The > > same meaning again is said by the other person in Mandarin,one using > > it will well understand it.If the same sentence is said in Panjabi > > then > > the same thing will happen.At that particular moment one who knows > > all these languages will understand it only in one sense > > (meaning,essence). > > > > One who have enough power(Jhana and has Paracitta-vijjanana) will > > know the meaning without language.Pannatti is a matter of debate I > > think.How will you explain all about these? > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > >Hi, Htoo - > > > > >Pannatta is not a real thing or it is not a Paramattha Sacca.It has > > no lifespan.It does not arise or pass away ... > > then ... But, of course, there *are* concepts. > > >Whenever we think of a tree or a table or a house, there is a > > concept, and > > >whenever we "see" one of these, we are applying a concept as a > > template to a > > >bundle of just-passed visual experiences. Both the concepts > > themselves and > > >the application of them to "bundles of just-passed experiences" > > actually > > >occur. So, there *are* pa~n~natti in the sense of mentally > > constructed > > >phenomena that are used as templates applied to aggregates of > > direct > > >experiences. These pa~n~natti DO arise and pass away, for they > > exist and are > > >conditioned, and all conditioned dhammas are impermanent! > > > Now, the word 'pa~n~natta' is *also* used for the alleged > > *referent* > > >of a concept. Even when that is a paramattha dhamma, it is not an > > existent in > > >the mode that it is grasped by the pa~n~natta, for that mode of > > (conceptual) > > >grasping is merely indirect and inferential. Of course, the > > referent of a > > >*complex* concept such as 'tree' isn't even amenable to direct > > experiencing > > >but *only* via the mental construct of 'tree'. But the conventional > > tree is > > >not nothing at all, because it is based on an aggregate of actual, > > >interrelated, direct experiences. Conventional objects such as > > trees, though > > >not existing *as such*, independent of our conceptualization, still > > can be > > >considered to be impermanent; to the extent that they exist, which > > is merely > > >conventional, they are derivatively impermanent, because the > > underlying > > >"realities" are impermanent. The "tree" is seen to grow from a > > seed, to > > >constantly change, with leaves growing and falling off, with > > branches > > >accupying varying conditions - swaying in the breeze. That is all, > > of course, > > >merely a conventional manner of speaking, but it reflects the > > reality of the > > >impermanence of the paramattha dhammas underlying "the tree". I > > think we > > >tread on dangerous ground when we speak of things other than > > nibbana as > > >neither arising nor ceasing. > > > > > >With metta, > > >Howard 28319 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Hi, James - In a message dated 12/26/03 1:49:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, all - > > > > The 1st sutta of the 1st chapter of SN, Crossing Over the > Flood, is > >very short and is also one of my favorites. I think it is quite > important. The > >ATI link for it, in case there is any interest in beginning at the > beginning, > >is the following: > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-001.html > > BTW, this sutta might provoke some interesting discussions > on the > >"no-control" aspect of anattata. It is also relevant, I think, vis- > a-vis the > >Taoist/Zen notion of "wu wei" (actionless action), and, mainly, it > deals, I think, > >with a dead-center-important practice issue. > > Yea, this is a very good sutta. It is deceptively simple and deep in > meaning. I think the Buddha is saying that not by standing still and > not by struggling he crossed the flood (flood of ignorance, samsara, > craving, etc.). > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree. Deceptively simple but very deep in meaning. What you provide below is really worthwhile. But the main problem is to unravel *exactly* what the Buddha meant when he said "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." On the face of it, it sounds contradictory, and yet I have the sense of what it means. I think you may have hit on the meaning exactly when you speak of a selfless acting. There is volition, and there is action, but, all the while , there is no one doing anything. This is a kind of koan, which if penetrated is an open door to liberation. ----------------------------------------------------- > > "Note 3: The Buddha's brief reply points to the middle way (majjhima > patipada) in its most comprehensive range, both practical and > philosophical. To make the implication clear Spk enumerates seven > dyads: (i) "halting" by way of defilements, one sinks; "straining" by > way of volitional formations, one gets swept away; (ii) by way of > craving and views, one sinks; by way of the other defilements, one > gets swept away; (iii) by way of craving, one sinks, by way of views, > one gets swept away; (iv) by way of the eternalist view, one sinks; > by way of the annihilationist view, one gets swept away; (v) by way > of slackness one sinks, by way of restlessness one gets swept away; > (vi) by way of devotion to sensual pleasures one sinks, by way of > devotion to self-mortification one gets swept away; (vii) by way of > all unwholesome volitional formations one sinks, by way of all > mundane wholesome volitional formations one gets swept away." > > I think this does relate greatly to the principal of Wu Wei, selfless > action. However, wu wei has a different emphasis in Taoism in that > it can be practiced in any activity, even cutting up a dead cow (an > example used by Chaung Tzu and how the knife of the wu wei butcher > remained sharp). Wu Wei to the Buddha would still have to be > performed under certain strict standards, precepts, etc. > > The difficulty of determining The Middle Way is very strong in > today's world. The world is void of strict austerities so the whole > standard has shifted more to the pleasure side in most people's > minds. For example, smoking just one pack of cigarettes instead of > ten isn't following the Middle Way! ;-)) What we might consider the > Middle Way the Buddha probably wouldn't. What do you think? > > >With metta, > >Howard > > Metta, James > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28320 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 0:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Dear Jon, Mike and Howard, Panatta does not arise and it does not fall away as it is not a reality. When it is not a reality that is it is not an existence, it has not to arise and fall away. What seems arise and fall away is Dhammaarammana or mental object. Mental object arises. As soon as it arises, the mind called Manodvara Avajjana Citta take it and then Manodvara Javana Cittas arise in a series of 7. After that, the mental object may exist or fall away. But Panatta on the other hand cannot arise or fall away, as it is not an existence and it is not an ultimate reality. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Mike (and Howard) > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Howard and Jon, > > > ... > > This has come up before and I basically agree with you both. > > On the other hand, it also seems to me that only pa.n.natti, maybe, > > can be > > the the basis of conventional (conceptual) insight? (Potentially > > confusing >Yes, I believe it's correct to say that at moments of understanding at an intellectual level the object will be concepts and not absolute dhammas. This intellectual understanding is a necessary prelude to direct experiencing (mundane path moments). Right view as a path factor is the panna that arises with the mundane path moments (satipatthana/vipassana). >It's always good to go over it again. Our grasp of these things is > essentially weak and needs constant reinforcement. > Jon 28321 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's tree and a little hint Dear Nina, Howard, Larry and all, I just dig up Panatta again as it plays an important role in understanding of Dhamma. I would say, '' Panatta never arises, and never falls away. '' Panatta is not an ultimate reality. As it is not a real existence, it does not have to arise and fall away. But Panatta can be taken as an object. That is mental object. As mental object, the Dhammaarammana arises and falls away, like our thoughts. You may notice that sometimes thoughts go away. But Panatta cannot arise or fall away. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Larry > op 09-03-2003 18:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > Is the mental image of Howard's tree a nimita (sign)? Is a mental image > > considered to be a concept? > N: Yes, it is not a nama or rupa with its own unalterable characteristic > that can be directly experienced such as hardness. We do not have to name > hardness, it can be experienced through the bodysense, no matter what name > we use.. > L:The mental image for me is generic and > > somewhat ideal, for Howard it may be specific and "flawed". Would the > > generic and ideal image be a counterpart sign and the specific and > > flawed image be a learning sign? > N: No, I do not see it in this way. Counterpart sign and learning sign are > referred to in connection with samatha only. Take the kasina: first there is > the learning sign when one begins to develop calm, later on one does not > have to look, there is already the counterpart sign. However, I understand > that you want to compare different impressions of Howard's famous tree. > Nina 28322 From: Carl Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:48pm Subject: Re: Samyutta Nikaya discussions (was Question on ego and self ..) upasaka@a... wrote: > =========================== > I've read through the SN several times, but there is no end to the > usefulness of its study. I will be happy to discuss some of the suttas therein > with you and James and anyone else on DSG. > > Howard As a Lurker, I am looking foreward to studying the SN within the DSG. Thank you for providing such a grand opportunity. Carl 28323 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hi, James (and all) - In a message dated 12/26/03 1:53:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi All, > > At Savatthi. Standing to one side, that devata recited this verse in > the presence of the Blessed One: > > "Those who dwell deep in the forest, > Peaceful, leading the holy life, > Eating but a single meal a day: > Why is their complexion so serene?* > > [The Blessed One:] > "They do not sorrow over the past, > Nor do they hanker for the future. > They maintain themselves with what is present: > Hence their complexion is so serene. > > "Through hankering for the future, > Through sorrowing over the past, > Fools dry up and wither away > Like a green reed cut down." > SN I, 10 ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: James, I think your note below bringing out the deva-centric view as opposed to the renunciate's view is very interesting. In particular, I think that pointing out the naturally radiant being's interest in the radiance seen in the monks is interesting. I would like to ask a question on another matter, however, of anyone who has information on the topic: The immediately following commentarial note interprets the sutta as giving sitting meditation as the cause of the serene radiance. Now, while I am all in favor of meditation and I maintain that the Buddha called for it repeatedly, I just don't see formal sitting meditation in this sutta. I'm curious as to how the commentary gives this reading, and, more generally, I'm curious as to what is the basis for the "inside track" that the commentaries appear to have. Or is there no inside track at all, and the commentarial interpretations are just a matter of opinion (which is often led by interest and inclination)? ---------------------------------------------------------- > *Note 18: Spk: This verse was spoken by an earth-bound deva who dwelt > in that forest. Each day he would see the bhikkhus who inhabited the > forest sitting in meditation after their meal. As they sat, their > minds would become unified and serene, and the serenity of their > minds would become manifest in their complexion (vanna). Puzzled > that they could have such serene faces while living under these > austere conditions, the deva came to the Buddha to inquire into the > case. The facial complexion (mukhavanna) or complexion of the skin > (chavivanna) is understood to indicate success in meditation. > > James' Note: The first chapter of the Samyutta Nikaya is the > Devatasamyutta "Connected Discources with Devatas. This is an > interesting chapter because the discourses reveal the personalities > and interests of the devas in contrast to the deep wisdom and vision > of the Buddha. The devas, being heavenly beings, have joy and > delight as a mainstay and so they approach the Buddha predominately > as curiosity seekers. Because they exist in a heavenly sphere, the > Buddha greatly emphases The Middle Path when discussing the Dhamma > with them to illustrate that their existence is a type of extreme and > that delight in heaven, or torture in hell, are not conducive to > following the middle path to Nibbana. Because they are from a > heavenly realm, predominately their mode of speech is in verse and so > the Buddha replies in verse as well. > > The above sutta reveals what is noticeable to this particular deva, > how the Buddha's monks look. Since devas have luminous bodies which > give off light, they would be interested in why certain humans can > have a similar type of appearance at times. The Buddha's answer > draws the deva away from just thinking about their appearance and > thinking about the internal wisdom that causes it. > > Comments? Perhaps someone else would like to post a sutta from the > Devatasamyutta which also reveals the personality/interest of the > devas in contrast to the deep wisdom of the Buddha? > > Metta, James > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28324 From: Carl Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's tree and a little hint --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Nina, Howard, Larry and all, >.......snip...... > Htoo Naing: But Panatta can be taken as an object. That is mental object. As > mental object, the Dhammaarammana arises and falls away, like our > thoughts........snip...... >.............................. Carl.. Htoo Naing am I correct in thinking thusly: Vision, seeing the tree, is a mental construct to the full extent that it is impossible to view the "outside world" as the outside world. Seeing arises within our brain mass. We can not actually see or know "out there". The knowing of the "outside world" does not take place out there, the knowing is confined to within our brain mass. Our senses only provide an interpretation of the objects and activities of the outside world. The true nature of the *outside world* is unknowable. Is this Panatta? Or is Panatta more closely tied to the "word" we use to describe or create a concept of the *tree*? Is Panatta a result of language/ideas or is Panatta more akin to the objective world being in our head? I don't know if I am being very clear, but thanks for any clarity you may offer. Carl 28325 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:34am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi, Christine - In a message dated 12/26/03 2:18:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > You can't control what happens in a flooding stream. You can't plan > to go directly across. And it would be disaster to just 'go with the > flow'. Could the Buddha be indicating that consistent attention is > needed, without fluctuating surges in energy likely to make one > careless through over-confidence or anxious and doubtful? > Persistence and endurance seem to be of value here, while being aware > of, but not overcome by, obstacles. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Excellent points, I think, Christine. At least part of this issue is that the middle way of practice (and, BTW, this addresses your final question to me, below) is a practice that centers on constant, unrelenting attention, and subtle adjustments of activity that directly and egolessly grow out of that attention. ------------------------------------------------ > [A stray thought - what happened to the Raft we often hear about that > we're not supposed to carry around on our shoulders once we've used > it to cross the flood? Is this the no frills economy class sutta > version? :-) ] > > What's the dead-centre-important practice issue Howard? Right Effort? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, right effort of a sort - subtle, egoless effort growing out of right mindfulness. ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28326 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:38am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi, Christine - Thanks, Christine.I've bookmarked this article. You never fail to come with interesting and relevant articles!! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/26/03 2:59:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear All, > > This modern commentary "Crossing the Flood" by Scott Fogelsong on > the Oghatarana sutta may be of interest (lots on Devas) : > http://scottlf.home.mindspring.com/floodsutra.htm#_ftnref29 > > metta and peace, > Christine /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28327 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 12/26/03 3:06:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Howard said, Panatta arises and falls away. I asked him in which way. > But he failed to answer, I think. > ========================= I maintain that only in the sense of 'pa~n~natti' as "thoughts" or "ideas" or other mental constructs. They come and go as objects of consciousness. But I do not think that their referents (such as trees and cars) arise and fall away, because they never even exist at all except in a manner of speaking. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28328 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 12/26/03 3:11:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > I am really sorry to post this late and delayed reply. I posted a > delayed reply before this. I stated that you mentioned Panatta arises > and falls away. Now I am clear that you did not mean it. > > The idea of a tree, the example you gave, you said the concept arise > as in case of Pathavi ( hardness ) and falla away. I think what you > talked about is Dhammaarammana or mental object. > > Yes, mental object arise and fall away. But Panatta does not. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > ========================= Yes, you are correct (I think). I do not think that trees and cars and human bodies and email lists literally arise and cease. The thoughts of them do, and the interrelated rupas subsumed by these concepts do, but *they* do not except as a convention. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28329 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samyutta Nikaya discussions (was Question on ego and self ..) Hi, Carl - In a message dated 12/26/03 5:49:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, c7carl@y... writes: > As a Lurker, I am looking foreward to studying the SN within the > DSG. Thank you for providing such a grand opportunity. Carl > ========================== Great! The more participants, the likelier we are to see new and important aspects of the teaching. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28330 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 4:08pm Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not/KenH Hiya KenH, Post-Christmas depression and sluggishness are endemic. Are you quite certain you aren't just ducking out to the Maleny Folk Festival up the road and neglecting us? :-) My son Luke and a mate have gone camping there with the hippies (isn't that a lovely word 'hippies', evoking those old memories of tie dyed sarongs, cheese cloth, acoustic guitars, love, and aromatic smoke wafting out of camper vans, peace man!) for a week. So lock up your daughters Noosa Hinterlanders :-)). Seriously though, it is a common experience. So much build-up for the festive season. Buddhists aren't immune to having 'expectations' and overindulging, or to the awareness of another year passing and the world being a bit further 'down the gurgler'. I wonder why we always expect it to improve - clearly we don't learn from experience. Just the same old greed, hate and delusion in all their fascinating and well-disguised permutations and combinations. I know, at work, February is the red alert month for family crises. Stress and unhappiness resulting from the build up through November and December of advertising about how 'happy families' all have wonderful old-fashioned, loving, perfect Christmases - with everyone's dreams coming true. The secret is to buy big presents - if you "really" love someone, and are "really" loved by someone, you'll get the 'just right' present, and have the 'just right' experience. Don't worry about having cash - put it all on Credit Card- you'll manage to pay it off (somehow) "next year"... yeah, right, 'til the Statements come in in February. I know you will chirrup up soon KenH, as soon as you get back into your normal diet and exercise routine. "Brisbane Expects" you (and Andrew and Steve)to chip in on the Samyutta Corner Conversations - learn a few suttas for a change, mate - have a little rest from straight Abhidhamma. :-)) Get out a bit and talk about 'namas and rupas in story form' (I'll be able to understand you then. Yaayy! :-)) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Sukin and Sarah, > > Thank you for prompting me to contribute to the > discussions but I'm still finding it hard to string a few > words together. I'm suffering a general sluggishness and > dejection that could be due to any of several > reasons. For example, I am fat and weak from festive- > season gluttony and lack of exercise (terrible surf > lately). > > I know, from experience, that the longer I remain off- > list the harder it is to get back on. So I will, at > least, apologise for muffing the baton change. > > :-) > Kind regards, > Ken H 28331 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 4:49pm Subject: Re: Coming on Too Strong Dear Howard, James and Sarah, I too, considered this a touching post, Howard. I read the original post and thought you were being quite brave in coming out with comments like that! Then realised that if we were all in a room together having a discussion, the words would probably be the same if you felt strongly enuff about the issue, it just seems to be more 'permanent' when its down in writing. It certainly is a condition for me to think more deeply about the teachings, esp Abhidhamma, and not to have so much 'blind faith'. As James states 'those Abhidhamma lovers need to have their chains shaked'. LOL. Thanks James. Reading, considering, questioning and discussing aspects of the teachings is part of those 4 things that the Buddha has said may lead to the obtaining of wisdom. Already mentioned by Sarah as well. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Nina (and all) - > > > > It occurs to me that in some recent posts I may well > have "come on too > > strongly" with regard to minor elements of Abhidhamma > > This is such a sweet post! A sign of true egolessness. However, > sometimes I feel those Abhidhamma lovers need to have their chains > shaked! And I think that I am glad when they shake my chains > also!! ;-)) We all need that on a daily basis. My culminated posts > about the Abhidhamma make yours seem like love letters, and I am not > guilty about those one bit. We can all be friends and we can all > slap each other's face once in a while!! ;-)) What's friendship > for? ;-)) > > Metta, James 28332 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hello Howard and all, The note 18 also has an additional line that mentions references 21:3 (II 275, 20-21), 28:1 (III 235, 22) and Vin I 40, 14 and 41, 2. At 21:3 Bhikkhusamyutta 'The Barrel' - Ven Saariputta says to Venerable Mahaamoggallaana "Friend Moggallaana, your faculties are serene, your facial complexion is pure and bright. Has the Venerable Mahaamoggallaana spent the day in a peaceful dwelling?" "I spent the day in a gross dwelling, friend, but I did have some Dhamma talk." {384} Note 384 says Spk: The dwelling is called 'gross' on account of its object. For he dwelt in the exercise of the divine eye and divine ear element which take gross objects, namely, the form base and the sound base. 28:1 (III 235, 22) says: 28 Saariputtasamyutta Connected Discourses with Saariputta 1 'Born of Seclusion' "Then, in the evening, the Venerable Saariputta emerged from seclusion and went to Jeta's Grove, Anaathapindika's Park. The Venerable Ananda saw the Venerable Saariputta coming in the distance and said to him: "Friend Saariputta, your faculties are serene, your facial complexion is pure and bright. In what dwelling has the Venerable Saariputta spent the day?" "Here, friend, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered and dwelt in the first jhaana which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. Yet, friend, it did not occur to me, 'I am attaining the first jhaana,' or 'I have attained the first jhaana,' or 'I have emerged from the first jhaana.'" I don't have access to the Vinaya to check those references. It seems the word 'dwelling' is not straight forward. I first thought it was a kuti or root of a tree. But it is more a mental state? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > I would like to ask a question on another matter, however, of anyone > who has information on the topic: The immediately following commentarial note > interprets the sutta as giving sitting meditation as the cause of the serene > radiance. Now, while I am all in favor of meditation and I maintain that the > Buddha called for it repeatedly, I just don't see formal sitting meditation in > this sutta. I'm curious as to how the commentary gives this reading, and, more > generally, I'm curious as to what is the basis for the "inside track" that the > commentaries appear to have. Or is there no inside track at all, and the > commentarial interpretations are just a matter of opinion (which is often led by > interest and inclination)? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > *Note 18: Spk: This verse was spoken by an earth-bound deva who dwelt > > in that forest. Each day he would see the bhikkhus who inhabited the > > forest sitting in meditation after their meal. As they sat, their > > minds would become unified and serene, and the serenity of their > > minds would become manifest in their complexion (vanna). Puzzled > > that they could have such serene faces while living under these > > austere conditions, the deva came to the Buddha to inquire into the > > case. The facial complexion (mukhavanna) or complexion of the skin > > (chavivanna) is understood to indicate success in meditation. > > 28333 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hi Christine and James Could you kindly clarify Note 384 says Spk - does this mean commentary notes or notes from B.Bodhi. kind rgds Ken O 28334 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hello Ken O, and all, As far as I can tell Ken, it is a Commentary note directly quoted by BB - not his own composition. note 384 appears after the sentence "I spent the day in a gross dwelling, friend, but I did have some Dhamma talk. [384] It is then explained on page 822 Bhikkhusamyutta: Notes of the Connected Discourses of the Buddha, A new translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Volume 1. Wisdom Publications, Boston, as: Spk: "The dwelling is called gross etc. ..." as per my last post. On page 1999 Volume II under Abbreviations 1. Primary Works: "Spk" refers to Saaratthappakaasini, Samyutta Nikkaaya-atthakathaa (Burmese Script ed.) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine and James > > Could you kindly clarify > > Note 384 says Spk - does this mean commentary notes or notes from > B.Bodhi. > > > kind rgds > Ken O 28335 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:05pm Subject: Re: How To get Through The Samsara ( 11 ) Dear Htoo Naing, After all your brilliant posts explaining the true meaning of satipatthana, you follow up with this parody! A conceptual imitation of satipatthana does nothing but ridicule the real thing. Why are you suggesting that the Buddha taught such a practice? Where in the Pali Canon, is it said that mindfulness of concepts leads to mindfulness of dhammas? There are some lines in the Satipatthana-sutta that can be taken this way but, to do so, would be to take them completely out of context with the rest of the Tipitaka. The commentaries hasten to explain that mindfulness of the concept of walking (for example), is not what the Buddha taught. You, yourself, have acknowledged this. But now you would have us believe that mindfulness of concepts does play a part. Why? ----------- HN: > While he is practising sitting in meditation, he is being aware of what exactly he is doing and what is arising at each moment. When he considers that he wants to stop sitting and wants standing, he knows that he wants them. Then his mindfulness on breath is shifted to his body position. ----------- Why, has he stopped breathing? Who is watching the breathing while there is mindfulness of 'wanting to stand up?' The same question applies to everything that follows in this surprising post. Who is to say there should be mindfulness of 'having the eyes open?' At that time, where is the mindfulness of walking, of keeping the back straight, of looking ahead, of what the left foot is doing, of what the right foot is doing, of wanting to go to the toilet? In other words: the whole practice is illogical and unworkable. ----------- HN: > He wants to put down the glass on the table. He does that consciously. ----------- If he does, can there be satipatthama at that exact, same, moment? Or is he only concerned with the future? Kind regards, Ken H 28336 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Hi Sarah, This is a very nice message and good start and thank you for the extracts from the intro. James: You're welcome. Glad that you enjoyed. I've said to James that I'm very content to follow his lead and I know he's giving it plenty of consideration. It won't be boring. As he says, we can relax and threads can and will take on a life of their own as usual and never need die;-). James: Well, I don't know if it will never be boring. As I tell my students, "Boring people bore easily." Christine, so glad you're happy to contribute - this will be a great help. I hope other Cooranites are taking note as well;-). It's a good idea of James's to start with the intro. So do you have any comments on the intro extracts he selected or have any other passages in the intro you'd like to bring to our attention? With all James's psychic abilities --;-)— James: I have a cold now so thankfully those are on the fritz ;-). , he'll know just when to start posting from the first chapter, SN1, SN2 and so on and I think we can follow this lead to then comment on his suttas and `take' on them or introduce others from the same chapter we wish to share. Of course some will say it's too fast and others that it's too slow, as Larry is used to;-) James is an imaginative and skilful teacher, so it'll work out fine, James: Thank you for the compliment, and I know that you probably didn't intend this, but I want to make it clear that I am not a teacher of these suttas. English, yes; Suttas, no. I was just going to share my study to encourage others, not teach them. Hopefully we can teach each other. I am quite excited about the prospect because it will make me less lazy in my studies. Thank you for introducing the idea. I know. Pls go ahead and post the link to the article you mentioned off-list - it may be interesting for others too. We'll all find our own favourite sections in due course and of course they probably won't be the same;-) James: Yes, I was appalled when I read Leigh's comment "The first 11 books are not all that interesting, but here are a few interesting suttas:" Not all that interesting??? We could spend weeks on the first sutta alone! (See above boring comment ;-). KenO, I'm very interested to read the sections I'm not at all familiar with and look at the commentary notes which BB supplies. I won't be translating anything (I'm not a Pali expert or reader - just an occasional term at best), but will certainly be quoting -- and encouraging others to do so --from the comy notes as often as I can get away with;-) If she's not too busy, Nina or others with Pali expertise may be able to supplement these with any other key points for consideration. It'll be great to have your contributions in any form or kind. Metta, Sarah p.s Jon pointed out that it might be less confusing if we use the same way of reference that BB uses in his notes. (Jon, hope this means you'll be contributing too;-)) James: Okay, this sounds like a good idea. Metta, James 28337 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:33pm Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > You can't control what happens in a flooding stream. You can't plan > to go directly across. And it would be disaster to just 'go with the > flow'. Could the Buddha be indicating that consistent attention is > needed, without fluctuating surges in energy likely to make one > careless through over-confidence or anxious and doubtful? > Persistence and endurance seem to be of value here, while being aware > of, but not overcome by, obstacles. James: According to the commentary notes: "Spk: The Blessed One deliberately gave an obscure reply to the deva in order to humble him, for he was stiff with conceit yet imagined himself wise. Realizing that the deva would not be able to penetrate the teaching unless he first changed his attitude, the Buddha intended to perplex him and thereby curb his pride. At that point, humbled, the deva would ask for clarification and the Buddha would explain in such a way that he could understand." I really like some of the commentary notes because they give some background information that isn't present in the original sutta. These deva, when he approached the Buddha, must have thought he was hot stuff by knowing enough to ask, "How, dear sir, did you cross the flood?" He wanted to test the Buddha's wisdom and to demonstrate what he knew. When I read the sutta I took the line, "When I came to a standstill, friend, then I sank" as being the time when he was a prince and began to sink into the household life; and the line "but when I struggled, then I got swept away" as being the time when he practiced severe austerities in the forest. By avoiding these two extremes he was able to cross the flood, become enlightened. What do you think? > [A stray thought - what happened to the Raft we often hear about that > we're not supposed to carry around on our shoulders once we've used > it to cross the flood? Is this the no frills economy class sutta > version? :-) ] James: He probably used this metaphor of crossing the flood because that is what the deva asked. If he had introduced a metaphor of a raft at that point, the message would have gotten kind of messy. Mixing metaphors gets really confusing. > > What's the dead-centre-important practice issue Howard? Right Effort? > > metta and peace, > Christine Metta, James 28338 From: dhammasaro Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:06pm Subject: Re: Sentient Being Christine, A very warm thank you. Chuck --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Chuck, and all, > > The Pali Text Society Pali-English dictionary contains the following > definition. The places where the Pali term is used in the Tipitika > are listed within the entry below. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html > > Satta2 (p. 673) [cp, Vedic sattva living being, satvan "strong man, > warrior," fr. sant] 1. (m.) a living being, creature, a sentient & > rational being, a person D I.17, 34, 53, 82; II.68; A I.35 sq., 55 > sq.; S I.135; V.41; Vin I.5; Miln 273; Vism 310 (defn: "rup'adisu > khandhesu chandaragena satta visatta ti satta," thus=satta1); Nett > 161; DA I.51, 161; VbhA 144. --naraka° a being in purgatory (cp. > niraya°) Vism 500. -- 2. (nt.) soul (=jivita or vinnana) Pv I.81 > (gata°=vigata--jivita PvA 40). <-> 3. (nt.) substance Vin I.287. > nissatta non--substantial, phenomenal DhsA 38. > nn--avasa abode of sentient beings (see nava1 2) D III.263, 268; A > V.53; Vism 552; VbhA 168. --ussada (see ussada 4) teeming with life, > full of people D I.87, 111, 131. --loka the world of living creatures > SnA 263, 442; Vism 205. See also sankhara--loka. --vanijja slave > trade DA I.235=A III.208 (C.: manussa--vikkaya). > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dhammasaro" > wrote: > > Howdy, > > > > Happy holidays to all. > > > > Four questions: > > > > 1. Is/are there Pali words for "sentient being(s)"; > > > > 2. Does the Tipitaka use the words; > > > > 3. If yes, where; and > > > > 4. If yes, what do the words mean? > > > > metta, > > > > Chuck 28339 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hi Christine Many thanks and you are always a sparkling gem :) in the list kind regards Ken O --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Ken O, and all, > > As far as I can tell Ken, it is a Commentary note directly quoted > by > BB - not his own composition. > > note 384 appears after the sentence "I spent the day in a gross > dwelling, friend, but I did have some Dhamma talk. [384] > It is then explained on page 822 Bhikkhusamyutta: Notes of the > Connected Discourses of the Buddha, A new translation by Bhikkhu > Bodhi. Volume 1. Wisdom Publications, Boston, > as: > Spk: "The dwelling is called gross etc. ..." as per my last post. > > On page 1999 Volume II under Abbreviations 1. Primary Works: > "Spk" refers to Saaratthappakaasini, Samyutta Nikkaaya-atthakathaa > (Burmese Script ed.) > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > 28340 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Thank you Ken O - what a graceful thing to say. :-)) with smiling metta Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong .yahoo.com/download/index.html 28341 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hi, Christine - In a message dated 12/26/03 8:11:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > The note 18 also has an additional line that mentions references 21:3 > (II 275, 20-21), 28:1 (III 235, 22) and Vin I 40, 14 and 41, 2. > > ========================== Ahh, I see. The interpretation was made on the basis of similar suttas in which the meditative conditioning was evident. Very good - that is reasonable. Thanks for providing this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28342 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Howard: James, I think your note below bringing out the deva-centric view as opposed to the renunciate's view is very interesting. In particular, I think that pointing out the naturally radiant being's interest in the radiance seen in the monks is interesting. James: Thanks. I tend to look at things a bit differently than others. Some like this about me and others don't. Glad that you do. ;-) James: I would like to ask a question on another matter, however, of anyone who has information on the topic: The immediately following commentarial note interprets the sutta as giving sitting meditation as the cause of the serene radiance. Now, while I am all in favor of meditation and I maintain that the Buddha called for it repeatedly, I just don't see formal sitting meditation in this sutta. James: I just offered that commentarial note because I thought it was interesting. It gave some background information. I also noticed that meditation wasn't mentioned in the sutta itself but thought that the commentarial information could have been accurate. The monks, not all of them being enlightened, would probably more likely `glow' when they were in deep meditation and immediately afterward, but maybe not all the time. I believe that the Buddha was supposed to have this `glow' at all times and would emit multi-colored rays when he meditated. I guess the Buddha wanted to emphasize that the serenity and `glow' came from truly being in the present moment, while meditating or not. Howard: I'm curious as to how the commentary gives this reading, and, more generally, I'm curious as to what is the basis for the "inside track" that the commentaries appear to have. Or is there no inside track at all, and the commentarial interpretations are just a matter of opinion (which is often led by interest and inclination)? James: My understanding is that the commentarial notes have been passed down, along with the suttas, as background information for the suttas. The original monks and nuns memorized the suttas to teach the dhamma to other monks and nuns. The suttas themselves don't give all of the background information in order to make them easily memorized and formulaic. However, some of the monks would know some of the background information for a particular sutta and passed that information along as well. Buddhaghosa translated most of the commentaries from their original Singhala to Pali on the island of Sri Lanka, where the only intact copies remained. Of course, which ones he kept intact and which ones he chose to elaborate on is the subject of much debate (which I won't get into that again! ;-). Since the originals are gone, we will never know (and who is to say that even the originals didn't contain some elaborations?). I am wary of those commentaries which give an analysis of various issues, especially using Abhidhamma terms, because I am not sure if they are from the Buddha or someone else's opinion. I think that those which give just background information, like why a particular deva asked a particula question, are probably accurate; but not everyone has to agree. Metta, James 28343 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Dear James, I'm not so sure the difficulty of determining the Middly Way is any more pronounced than it was 2500 years ago in India (except that we've lost the living voice of the Buddha and his close disciples). The "strict austerities" route is driven by the notion that liberation can be won by following rules and rituals. The "hedonist" route is that the rules are nonsense and liberation is found in full indulgence of the senses. Both these ideas are rampant and visible in today's world, even among Buddhists (and even within individuals Buddhists!). The Buddha taught that rules and rituals are not the path (or even a part of the path -- unless the "path" is taken in a broad sense so that following the five precepts even with impure motives is on the "path"), liberation is attained by following any particular prescription for activity. On the other hand, he taught that following the urges of the moment is also not the path. The path is something distinctly different from reliance on rules or wanton dimissal of rules (or won-ton dismissal of rules for those living in HK [path is eating to satisfy all cravings?]). Dan > > The difficulty of determining The Middle Way is very strong in > > today's world. The world is void of strict austerities so the whole > > standard has shifted more to the pleasure side in most people's > > minds. For example, smoking just one pack of cigarettes instead of > > ten isn't following the Middle Way! ;-)) What we might consider the > > Middle Way the Buddha probably wouldn't. What do you think? > > > > >With metta, > > >Howard > > > > Metta, James 28344 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hi, James - In a message dated 12/26/03 11:30:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Howard: I'm curious as to how the commentary gives this reading, and, > more generally, I'm curious as to what is the basis for the "inside > track" that the commentaries appear to have. Or is there no inside > track at all, and the commentarial interpretations are just a matter > of opinion (which is often led by interest and inclination)? > > James: My understanding is that the commentarial notes have been > passed down, along with the suttas, as background information for the > suttas. The original monks and nuns memorized the suttas to teach > the dhamma to other monks and nuns. The suttas themselves don't give > all of the background information in order to make them easily > memorized and formulaic. However, some of the monks would know some > of the background information for a particular sutta and passed that > information along as well. Buddhaghosa translated most of the > commentaries from their original Singhala to Pali on the island of > Sri Lanka, where the only intact copies remained. ==================== Thanks for this, James. This is an important point which explains a lot, and, in the process, gives increased weight (in my mind) to the commentaries. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28345 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 9:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Dear James, This means a lot to me, it reminds me of a similar sutta M III, 131, on the Auspicious (Bhaddekarattasutta) : "The past should not be followed after, the future not desired, What is past is got rid of and the fuuture has not come. But whoever has vision now here, now there, of a present thing, knowing that it is immovable, unshakable, let him cultivate it." The note: realising that it is impermanent and so on. Unshakable by attachment. This reminds me of the present moment, to develop understanding of the present moment. Nina. op 26-12-2003 19:50 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > [The Blessed One:] > "They do not sorrow over the past, > Nor do they hanker for the future. > They maintain themselves with what is present: > Hence their complexion is so serene. > > "Through hankering for the future, > Through sorrowing over the past, > Fools dry up and wither away > Like a green reed cut down." 28346 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 9:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Dear James, Crossing over the flood: you mention the points of the Co stating the middle way. This last one is a very deep one: even mundane wholesome volitions do not get us out of the cycle. They are a link in the Dependent Origination, the abhisankharas. Nina. op 26-12-2003 19:48 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > (vii) by way of > all unwholesome volitional formations one sinks, by way of all > mundane wholesome volitional formations one gets swept away." 28347 From: Sarah Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 11:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi James, S:I expect this thread may take us as long as it takes to go through SN, LOL! And what a great start to SN. Apologies again for not being able to participate as much as I'd like for this month, but I see you've encouraged plenty of other folk;-);-) J: --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Well, either this commentary is wrong or you have > misinterpreted it. Right concentration cannot be practiced at just > any time and especially not during `sluggish and unbalanced' times. > I could quote suttas galore about this but let me just quote from an > expert on the suttas, Bhikkhu Bodhi, who translated the SN of which > we are both so enamored with at the moment: .... S:Ah...just to clarify: being enamored with SN and his great work doesn't mean that I agree with all his personal comments like the following one about 'deliberate attempt...'.After all, again who makes a deliberate attempt etc;-) .... J:>"......Samadhi is > exclusively wholesome one-pointedness, the concentration in a > wholesome state of mind. Even then its range is still narrower: it > does not signify every form of wholesome concentration, but only the > intensified concentration that results from a deliberate attempt to > raise the mind to a higher, more purified level of awareness." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html#ch7 .... S:Compare this quote and note Nina gave on the Vism thread: >.......while reading, we do not have to stop reading while considering in between different cittas, feelings, emotions. We talked before on how what has just fallen away can be object of awareness. Cittas roll on exceedingly fast. We read in the "KIndred Sayings"(V, 143, on the Stations of Mindfulness, ChI, §4, Sala that the Buddha spoke about the four Applications of Mindfulness: The Co has a note to one-pointed: This is what happens. When awareness and right understanding arise, there is one-pointedness (momentary) on the object of awareness, and just for a moment (in between talking, in between reading!) there is calm, because there is kusala citta with understanding arising in between all those akusala moments of being attached, conceited, angry, etc. ..... J:> Right concentration only occurs during a wholesome state of mind, > equanimity like I stated previously, and when there is a deliberate > attempt to raise the mind to a higher and more purified level of > awareness. This cannot be done while grocery shopping, brushing your > teeth, or any other mundane activity, it must be done during formal > sitting meditation. Really, this is just so basic to Buddhism I > don't know why we keep going over it. .... S:;-) I agree, not something to be ‘done’ at anytime. .... <...> J:> James: You are contradicting yourself, equanimity and pleasant > feeling cannot arise together. When there is any pleasant feeling, > then there is no more equanimity. True, the first two jhanas contain > pleasant feeling but that must be overcome, abandoned, to move to the > higher, last two jhanas. If one doesn't want to practice jhana > meditation, then there won't ever be any pleasant feeling, only > equanimity. .... S:It’s hard for me to add anymore on this without quoting Abhidhamma to show that equanimity arises with ALL wholesome (rather beautiful) cittas and furthermore that wholesome states arise with EITHER pleasant or neutral feeling. For example, at a moment of giving, there may well be pleasant feeling and we can see that the pleasant feeling with generosity is different from the pleasant feeling with attachment. At truly wholesome moments, there is equanimity or evenmindedness as well - no restlessnes, excitement or clinging. The pleasant feeling and joy that arise with the first two jhanas are also sobhana (beautiful) states accompanying the sobhana jhana cittas on account of the object experienced, even though they don’t arise with higher jhanas. As you rightly say, all states have to be known as they are - as impermanent and dukkha and also anatta. I’m afraid I’ll have to leave others to add more details if this doesn’t satisfy. It also was discussed in Nina's anapanasati thread. .... J:>Again I will quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi: <...> ... S:Sorry, but I didn’t agree with the quote you gave about directing mindfulness, noting and insight. If course, as Ken O reminds me, I’m in the dinosaur category on this;-) He’ll elaborate if you like, I know. .... J:> This is the type of meditation (vipassana) I practice because it is > what my meditation teacher taught me and it is a less `dangerous' > type. Jhana meditation can have some odd side effects and clinging > to blissful states if practiced without the constant supervision of > an experienced teacher (Gosh, I hope Jeff isn't reading this! ;-) ... S:He may join in;-) Unless there is any clear and developed right understanding at the level of satipathana or samatha bhavana, we cannot call either kind vipassana or jhana meditation and any wrong view of self or attachment to results always brings potentially ‘dangerous’ results imho. I think it’s only too easy to underestimate the dangers of any misguided practice. None of this is intended personally to either you or Jeff. .... J:> Regardless, Sarah, as I am understanding you, you believe that one > can practice right concentration during everyday life as long as it > is accompanied by pleasant feeling and joy. How is that supposed to > happen? Win the lottery everyday? LOL! (just kidding). ..... S:That might help my concentration, LOL! Quite honestly, James, I have no interest or concern to ‘practice right concentration during everyday life’. For me, such a concern would merely be a mark of strong clinging. Similarly, of course we all like having pleasant feeling and joy, but the wishing for these states and the dismay when they prove to be so fleeting are the very reason we’re discussing here. There’s a big difference between wholesome states arising naturally by the right conditions and trying and craving to make these happen. .... J:>The type of > pleasant feeling and joy that you are describing from the texts is a > very specialized type and isn't the same as the pleasure of eating > your favorite ice cream or something. .... S:Whew! Agreed! .... J:> James: You misunderstood what I wrote. What I wrote had nothing to > do with the degree of concentration during pleasant feeling or > otherwise, it was just an illustration to show that right > concentration cannot arise during unwholesome mind states and that > such unwholesome mind states are the standard of everyday life. > (Sarah, the thing about my landlady was a joke! My landlady never > stopped receiving metta from me. An argument doesn't mean I give > less metta. I argue with you all the time and I still have metta for > you! ;-))…and, BTW, it isn't automatically right concentration). ... S:Agreed with the first part! Different moments with regard for the metta. Changing mind-states all the time. When there is metta, the concentration is always wholesome too, even if there’s no bhavana - samatha or satipatthana. .... J:> James: The Buddha spoke often of working diligently. Getting to > Nibbana isn't a tea party! ;-) Again, you have an odd idea of non- > self that arises from the fact that you don't truly know non-self. > Did the Buddha realize anatta before he was enlightened? To my > understanding he did not. He thought he had a self and he strived > diligently all the way up to the end. It isn't wisdom to pretend to > be like a Buddha or to know what a Buddha knows. It is wisdom to > know what you don't know and work to know more. .... S:;-) Sorry if it sounded like I was pretending to be like a Buddha, LOL. A gradual path, a gradual development of right understanding and a gradual appreciation and understanding of realities as not self. You wrote very nicely about anatta in your post to Starkid Sandy. Just hearing and considering a little is a start and this 11 year old student is indeed fortunate to hear a little now. .... J:> James: I am, James Mitchell. Now you think I don't exist? I have > some student loan companies I wish I could convince of that!! ;-) .... S:;-) This would be a good one for KenH to take up if he finds the baton;-) This is the point, however much we talk about anatta, there is still the idea of ‘I am James’ or Sarah to work hard or focus or be diligent. Metta, Sarah ====== 28348 From: Sarah Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 0:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi James, I’ll just respond to the Vism definition of equanimity as I think I’ve responded to the other points just now. I actually appreciated this post (all trimmed) very much, because it really helped me consider more about equanimity, pleasant feeling and so on. --- buddhatrue wrote: > I agree with the general idea that Nina conveys in her book about > equanimity (except it being a cetasika). If find the metaphor from > the Vism quite useless,... .... Let me add a little more which may or may not help. Again, I’ll ask someone else to pick up the baton if not. Vism X1V, 153 “Specific neutrality (tatra - majjhattataa - lit. ‘neutrality in regard thereto’) is neutrality (majjhattataa) in regard to those states [of consciousness and consciousness-concomitants arisen in association with it]. {S: remember the middle (majjhima) path - sati and panna all all wholesome states are accompanied by equanimity and detachment towards their objects - no clinging or aversion. Without these, there can be no crossing the floods}. “It has the characteristic of conveying consciousness and consciousness-concomitants evenly. Its function is to prevent deficiency and excess, or its function is to inhibit partiality. It is manifested as neutrality. It should be regarded as like a conductor (driver) who looks with equanimity on thoroughbreds progressing evenly.” Atthasalini (Expositor p176): “’Equanimity’ (or balance of mind)* is neutrality regarding various states. It has the characteristic of carrying on consciousness and mental properties equally, the function of checking deficiency and excess, or of cutting off partisanship; it has the manifestation of neutrality. by virtue of its indifference regarding consciousness and mental properties it should be regarded as a charioteer who treats with impartiality the well-trained horses he is driving.” * tatra-majjhattataa is lit. ‘there-middleness’. **** This will come up again in the Vism thread. Now we’re on rupa khandha. With patience and encouragement to Larry and Nina, we’ll get to sankhara khandha and all mental states -- which weren’t discussed under vedana and sanna khandha -- will come up for analysis;-) Good points. I’m sure if you ask KenO or RobM, for example, they’ll glad ly indicate texts or charts about the arising of equanimity, joy and so on. Vism 1V, 156f also gives details on various uses of equanimity (tatramajjhattataa) “Equanimity is of ten kinds; six factored equanimity, equanimity as a divine abiding, equanimity as an enlightenment factor, equanimity of energy, equanimity about formations, equanimity as a feeling, equanimity about insight, equanimity as a specific neutrality, equanimity of jhana, and equanimity of purification.’ Plenty of detail and plenty of scope for misunderstanding on usage - quite possible here. Also see U.P. under ‘equanimity’ and/or ‘upekkha’ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah ==== 28349 From: Sarah Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hi Jeff, Thanks for getting back on our discussion;-) --- "Jeffrey S. Brooks" wrote:> > %%%%%%%% Jeff: > moment-to-moment mindfulness, as I use the term is attentive awareness > of every activity, no mstter how trivial, as in the Satipatthana Sutta > MN 10 .... S:I would like to suggest that it is not awareness ‘of every activity’, but awareness ‘during/whilst undertaking every (or any) activity’. The objects of awareness are those included in the 4 satipatthanas, i.e the 5 khandhas or all namas and rupas, but not concepts or activities. ..... J:> 3. Awareness with Clear Comprehension > > And further, monks, an aspirant, in going forward and back, applies > clear comprehension; in looking straight on and looking away, one > applies clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, one applies > clear comprehension; in wearing robes and carrying the bowl, one > applies clear comprehension; in eating, drinking, chewing and > savoring, one applies clear comprehension; in walking, in standing, in > sitting, in falling asleep, in waking, in speaking and in keeping > silence, one applies clear comprehension. > > Thus one lives contemplating the body in the body... > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn010b.html > %%%%%%%% .... S: At these times, i.e in daily life, whatever the activity, sati sampajanna (sati and panna) can and should arise of the various dhammas included in the 4 satipatthanas. I recommend a look under ‘Satipatthana Sutta and Commentaries in UP which you’re most welcome to comment on: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts As I know you’re busy with all your correspondence, I’ll quote one at the end of this post which is relevant. .... > %%%%%%%% Jeff: > Moment-to-moment mindfulness to me means everything, even if aurus and > chakras enter ones awareness domain. > %%%%%%%% .... S: That’s OK, Jeff. But this isn’t satipatthana as described by the Buddha. Of course sati itself arises with all wholesome states of consciousness, but sati of satipatthana can only be aware of a paramattha dhamma (ultimate reality). .... J:> Interesting questions Sarah however you assume there is an unwholesome > bliss or jhana, or absorption. .... S: I think my comments were merely suggesting that pana (wisdom) has to be very refined and developed to really understand and know the distinction between wholesome states and those which can easily masquerade for the same and fool us all the time. Like now, there may be neutral feeling or pleasant feeling. Is it wholesome or unwholesome? Panna has to be so sharp to really know the states following the experiences through the sense doors and this can only be with detachment. The test is always at this moment. Without highly developed panna which knows the distinction between these states, samatha cannot develop, let alone reach high levels of absorption and so on. .... J:>There isn't one, because otherwise it > would not be jhana. .... S: There isn’t unwholesome jhana, but there are unwholesome jhana factors or mental states which are included under jhana condition. Highly developed concentration, bliss and so on are not necessarily wholesome at all. .... J:>If you recall the 4 Noble Truths, suffering > (dukkha) caused be grasping and aversion. The pleasant abiding in the > here and now the Buddha spoke of was jhana. .... S: We need to be careful of the context. Perhaps we can say that ‘sukha vihaara’ refers to pleasant abiding for those accomplished in jhanas (jhana-samapatti). Additionally, for ariyan disciples, with mastery in jhanas, it refers to fruition-attainment (phala samapatti) according to the level of enlightenment attained. “All ariyans attain their own respective fruition” Ud Comy, Enlightenmnet Ch. I wrote more details in this post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24069 .... J:>Therefore one does not > get jhana with grasping and aversion. One gets suffering. ... S: I’d go further and suggest ‘one’ doesn’t ‘get’ it at all. Even the experiencing of jhana states is anatta. I hope we continue our discussion, even with long intervals is fine. I appreciate your reflections and comments. Metta, Sarah ===== *Jon The objects of awareness under the Satipatthana Sutta are dhammas (realities), not concepts. The consciousness/mind section refers to the dhamma that is the moment of consciousness. The mind objects/mental objects section refers to the dhammas (realities) that can be the object of a moment of consciousness, and this in turn means any and all realities (including those covered by the other 3 sections of the sutta). To give an example. At a moment of seeing there is contact between the consciousness that sees and visible object. That visible object is a reality and also, at that precise moment, a mind object (it is the object of seeing consciousness). So the visible object at that moment falls under both the rupas’ section and the mind object’ section of the 4 satipatthanas. This helps remind us that the 4 sections in the sutta are merely ways of classifying realities and are not in themselves absolutes. Only dhammas (realties) can be the object of satipatthana, because only something that has its own characteristic that is capable of being experienced is considered to be a dhamma’; anything that does not, is not. In the Satipatthana Sutta itself, the 'eligible' mind-objects are described in different ways. One of these ways is as the 5 khandhas (Aggregates), and these 5 khandhas encompass all dhammas (other than Nibbana). I have pasted below the passage from The Way of Mindfulness’ Jon Section on Mental Objects 2. The Aggregates "And, further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu thinks: 'Thus is material form [rupa]; thus is the arising of material form; and thus is the disappearance of material form. Thus is feeling [vedana]; thus is the arising of feeling; and thus is the disappearance of feeling. Thus is perception [sanna]; thus is the arising of perception; and thus is the disappearance of perception. Thus are the formations [sankhara]; thus is the arising of the formations; and thus is the disappearance of the formations. Thus is consciousness [vinnana]; thus is the arising of consciousness; and thus is the disappearance of consciousness.' Thus he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, internally ... and clings to naught in the world. "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging." [ends] ********** END QUOTE 28350 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Nina Please dont bother with me, pse continue with your study on latent tendency bc I have a hunch that it is a very impt piece of literary work for Abdhidhamma and it is seldom being explore and not translated probably due to its technicality. I have a hunch that Yamaka is crucial in understanding how moha works subtlely in the background together with latent tendency esp in masking understanding of anatta. kind regards Ken O 28351 From: Sarah Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: [Pali] profitable craving Dear Nina, Thank you for posting this useful detail. Always appreciated;-) --- nina van gorkom wrote: > I looked again at Co Netti which I could not read long ago, but now I > can > read it. It is very good. > Here is frwd what I wrote about this subject: <...> > But I was thinking more about craving that is profitable: Netti: 87 and > its > Co. > Netti (The Guide, transl by Ven. Nyanamoli) states: of > two kinds: profitable and unprofitable (cf. Pe 97). While the > unprofitable > goes with the roundabout, the profitable kind is craving for abandoning > (pahaana), which goes with dispersal (apacayagaaminii, (D III, 216).> .... In simple terms, what I understand is that of course craving is always unwholesome, but here again a shorthand is used to be understood according to conditions. As you explain, craving can be a condition for wholesome states and so on by pakatupanissaya paccaya. .... > In the Abhidhamma, the Patthana, it is explained under natural strong > dependence-condition, pakatupanissaya paccaya, that kusala can condition > kusala, but also that akusala can condition kusala. Because of aversion > towards akusala vipaaka or attachment to kusala vipaaka one may perform > good > deeds. One may regret the akusala one performed and to counteract it one > performs kusala. We read (Pa.t.thaana, Faultless Triplet VII, > Investigation > Ch, Conditions, Positive, § 423, V): > fulfils the duty of observance, develops jhaana, develops insight, > develops > Path, develops superknowledge, develops attainment, to counteract it.> > Thus, tanhaa is lobha cetasika, it is akusala, but, it can be a > condition > for attaining arahatship, and as such it can be called profitable. In > order > to attain arahatship it must be object of insight. .... It is only referred to as profitable as a shorthand for conditioning wholesome states. “The way in which craving, clinging, etc function as conditions may be explained as is appropriate for each case, according to whether (the conditioned states) are conascent with them or not. Some factors are a condition as predominance condition, some as kamma condition, some as nutriment condition, some as faculty condition, some as jhana condition, and some as path condition - this distinction should be recognized. This is the entry by way of dependent origination.” [Method of Exegetical Treatises (pakara.nanayena) as quoted by B.Bodhi.] If there are any points for further clarification, perhaps we can add them to our list for Bkk discussions;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 28352 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta, Co info. Hi James just some more info from the Co. Key words: the holy life: brahmacaariya: development of the eightfold Path. Meditation subject, kammathaana: stands for med. of calm (samatha) and for vipassana, satipatthana. derived materiality (upada rupa): refers here to all material phenomena of the body, except the four great elements (earth, etc., see thread with Larry). op 27-12-2003 05:30 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: "Those who dwell deep in the forest, Peaceful, leading the holy life, Eating but a single meal a day: Why is their complexion so serene?* Co info: Peaceful (santaana.m): those who have eradicated all defilements. Or, the wise person (pandita), who is called a worthy person (sappurisa, also used for the ariyan), who has subdued the defilements. Holy life: the person who practises the most refined dhamma, the holy life of the Path (magga brahmacaariyaa). . Co: the deva who asks is an earthbound deva (lowest class). Text co: < The persons in the forest had returned from their almsround, and after they had eaten, they entered the forest and applied themselves to the meditation subject of the charactyeristics [N: the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, anattaa]. The meditation that is usual, vipassana. They sat down already at the place where they were used to rest during night and day. When these monks were sitting with this meditation, one-pointedness (ekaggata cetasikas), the means of purification, arose. > My PTS note renders the Co, saying that distractions were overcome. The text:< When the citta was pure, also the blood became pure and also the derived materiality that originates in citta was purified. [N: some materiality is produced by kamma, some by citta, some by heat, some by food]. > Sutta: [The Blessed One:] "They do not sorrow over the past, Nor do they hanker for the future. They maintain themselves with what is present: Hence their complexion is so serene. "Through hankering for the future, Through sorrowing over the past, Fools dry up and wither away Like a green reed cut down." Co info: The co gives examples of clinging to wealth, nice food, to the requisites of bhikkhus. They may notice that their teachers receive these in abundance (given by King Dhammika), but these monks do not follow after what is sorrowful. They do not cling to the future, they are not after all these requisites which they have not yet received. The present: they just take care of themselves by whatever requisite they receive. Before this passage it was alo explained that they were content with any resting place, the root of trees, etc. "Through hankering for the future, Through sorrowing over the past, Fools dry up and wither away Like a green reed cut down." The Co: Nina. P.S. I gladly leave discussions and elaborations about the Co to others. From time to time I just like to give some info. Have to get on with Larry's thread and Latent tendencies. 28353 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58,groups of rupa Hi Howard, op 24-12-2003 19:29 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: quotes Larry: >> Does this mean >>> masculinity or femininity predominates at any given moment because of >>> predominance condition? > > you wrote: > >> N: I do not think predominates, but only one faculty, either femininity or >> masculinity is there. > However, in a previous reply to me you wrote: >> N: It does not arise from time to time but all the time, in a group of >> rupas. > >H: Now, when I said "from time to time," I meant not in every mindstate. > I'm not clear on what you are saying with regard to this. Are you saying that > in every process of states it occurs, but not in each state? Nina: It does not arise in every group of rupas, only in those groups of rupa which are produced by kamma, the decads. Thus not by citta, temperature or nutrition. Kamma keeps on producing these groups throughout life. I am not speaking at all about mind-states, cittas. Here we are just speaking about groups of rupa which arise and fall away all the time. Nina. 28354 From: Sarah Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 2:46am Subject: SN1:35 Faultfinders (was SN-Devatasamyutta) Hi James, Christine, Dan & All, > Comments? Perhaps someone else would like to post a sutta from the > Devatasamyutta which also reveals the personality/interest of the > devas in contrast to the deep wisdom of the Buddha? .... I’m out of time and doubt I’ll be able to continue the thread, but we started discussing 1:35 before (Faultfinders) and I’d be interested in any further discussion or comments along the lines you suggest. one devata: “If one shows oneself in one way While actually being otherwise, What one enjoys is obtained by theft Like the gains of a cheating gambler.” “One should speak as one would act; Don’t speak as one wouldn’t act The wise clearly discern the person Who does not practise what he preaches.” > "[The Blessed One:] > Not by mere speech nor solely by listening > Can one advance on this firm path of practice > By which the wise ones, the meditators, > Are released from the bondage of Mara. > > Truly, the wise do not pretend, > For they have understood the way of the world. > By final knowledge the wise are quenched: > They have crossed over attachment to the world." .... It continues to discuss transgressions and forgiveness. I appreciated Christine’s comments to Ken H (and also hope you feel better KenH - don’t give yourself a hard time over the batons either and pls take care of your eyes;-) C: >Buddhists aren't immune to having 'expectations' and overindulging, or to the awareness of another year passing and the world being a bit further 'down the gurgler'. I wonder why we always expect it to improve - clearly we don't learn from experience. Just the same old greed, hate and delusion in all their fascinating and well-disguised permutations and combinations.< This also makes me think about Christine’s ‘noticeable difference’ thread with the Buddha’s reminders about transgressions and the Tathagata’s great compassion and wisdom in contrast to the ‘faultfinders’. Look forward to any feedback linking these themes. No time to look at the notes now. If anyone finds anything useful, pls add. Thx everyone for the great posts and detail. Plenty for wise reflection. Metta, Sarah p.s Dan, you made good points on the ‘noticeable’ thread. This would certainly be noticeable, but would everyone be able to appreciate the wisdom?? Dan:>"even if bandits were to sever you savagely limb by limb with a two-handled saw, he who gave rise to mind of hate towards them would not be carrying out my teaching." (Mn 21) Of course there are other suttas which clearly indicate how shocked people were when they were told a drunkard and so on had become enlightened. To repeat an old favourite of mine again: Migasala Sutta -AN, Bk of 6s,v.44 (PTS, Hare transl). B.Bodhi gives the title ‘Don’t Judge Others!’(p.159. Numerical Discourses). ***** Migasala comes to see Ananda. She explains that the Buddha said that both her father, Purana, and her uncle, Isidatta reached the same level of enlightenment. She cannot understand it because she says her father lived ‘the godly life, dwelling apart, abstaining from common, carnal things’. Isidatta, on the other hand ‘did not live the godly life but rejoiced with a wife’. When Ananda repeats the conversation to the Buddha, the Buddha explains their different characters, their different strengths and weaknesses to show that ‘herein Isidatta fares not Purana’s way but another’s.’ He also urges Ananda not to be a ‘measurer of persons; measure not the measure of persons; verily, Ananda, he digs a pit for himnself who measures the measure of persons. I alone, Ananda, can measure their measure - or one like me.’ In this sutta the Buddha also gives examples of two people who might be of similar nature and judged equally by the ‘measurer of persons’. In fact there may be conditions for one of those judged to hear and understand the Teachings and who after death ‘fares to excellence’. He explains again that the harm is to the ‘measurer’... *********** 28355 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Robert and Kom (since Sarah is busy while Nina is occupied) and also Ken H I would like to clarify, A Sujin in the Survery of ParamathaDhamma Chapter 3 "Vipaka-citta does not accumulate latent tendencies in continuation because each vipaka-citta arises from accumulated kusala-kamma or akusala-kamma as paccaya. After the vipaka-citta has arisen and fallen away, it does not cause any other vipaka to arise." Chapter 5 "Understanding the dhamma would remind us that the javana-vithi-citta that arises when we see, hear, or smell etc. are kusala or akusala that arise and fall away, accumulating its own continuum and latent tendencies." I do think the paragraph on chapter 5 is inconsistent with what she said on chapter 3. By the way I am not here to pinpoint mistake, I here to clarify what she meant by para 5. My understanding is that Vipaka citta are kamma produced hence there is no way we can decide it is kusala or aksuala for its process of 17 moments of Vipaka cittas. One can only make a difference in the mind door, where whereby only kusala citta or akusala cittas could arise to affect the latent tendecies and accumulations for future vipaka cittas. This means Chapter 5 is not correct bc vipaka cittas are vithi citta but not javana-vithi-citta and they cannot accumulate latent tendecies as explain in Chapter 3. I may have more qns later on as now I am reading this particular intersting material. kind regards Ken O 28356 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:58am Subject: Re: How To get Through The Samsara ( 11 ) Dear Htoo Naing and all, Please accept my apologies. My previous message was very badly worded. What was meant to be 'spirited debate' has turned out brash and offensive. I will be more careful in future. Kind regards, Ken H 28357 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies DearKen, Could you give me the exact reference for this. I could not find either paragraph in the copy I helped to edit. Thanks robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Robert and Kom (since Sarah is busy while Nina is occupied) and > also Ken H > > I would like to clarify, > > A Sujin in the Survery of ParamathaDhamma > Chapter 3 > "Vipaka-citta does not accumulate latent tendencies in continuation > because each vipaka-citta arises from accumulated kusala-kamma or > akusala-kamma as paccaya. After the vipaka-citta has arisen and > fallen away, it does not cause any other vipaka to arise." > > Chapter 5 > "Understanding the dhamma would remind us that the javana-vithi- citta > that arises when we see, hear, or smell etc. are kusala or akusala > that arise and fall away, accumulating its own continuum and latent > tendencies." > > I do think the paragraph on chapter 5 is inconsistent with what she > said on chapter 3. By the way I am not here to pinpoint mistake, I > here to clarify what she meant by para 5. > > My understanding is that Vipaka citta are kamma produced hence there > is no way we can decide it is kusala or aksuala for its process of 17 > moments of Vipaka cittas. One can only make a difference in the mind > door, where whereby only kusala citta or akusala cittas could arise > to affect the latent tendecies and accumulations for future vipaka > cittas. This means Chapter 5 is not correct bc vipaka cittas are > vithi citta but not javana-vithi-citta and they cannot accumulate > latent tendecies as explain in Chapter 3. > > I may have more qns later on as now I am reading this particular > intersting material. > > > > kind regards > Ken O > > > 28358 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Robert http://www.triplegem.net/ this version is from this website rgds Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > DearKen, > Could you give me the exact reference for this. I could not find > either paragraph in the copy I helped to edit. > Thanks > robert 28359 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Robert Sorry should be a summary of ParamatthaDhamma rgds Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi Robert > > http://www.triplegem.net/ > > this version is from this website > > rgds > Ken O > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > DearKen, > > Could you give me the exact reference for this. I could not find > > either paragraph in the copy I helped to edit. > > Thanks > > robert 28360 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Sorry Ken, I still can't find it. Do you have an url you can post. rob In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi Robert > > Sorry should be a summary of ParamatthaDhamma > > rgds > Ken O > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" > wrote: > > Hi Robert > > > > http://www.triplegem.net/ > > > > this version is from this website > > > 28361 From: Sarah Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi KenO, I think it would be better if you use the translation A.Sujin has approved throughout (by Nina) and which is in the process of being printed by the Foundation now. It can be found at this link on RobK’s website: http://www.abhidhamma.org/Preface%20to%20paramattha.htm I’m sure Rob (and Nina) will be only too happy to look at any queeries you have. Pls let us know if it still reads like an inconsistency to you in the chapters you mentioned. Metta, Sarah p.s I hope we can send you, and anyone else who is interested, a hard copy fairly soon! ============ 28362 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Robert go to the website again it is under the Section Dhamma then you will see there is link Abhidhamma, then choose Paramatthadhamma, Summary of. There is no url bc the website is make in such a way. kind regards Ken O P.S> sorry all for wasting you bandwidth --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Sorry Ken, > I still can't find it. Do you have an url you can post. > rob > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" > wrote: 28363 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Dear Ken, Ok I am still having trouble so I try to answer anyway. Consider Sense-door process and mind-door process of cittas: From Realities and Concepts (sujin boriharnwanaket) * When a sense object, which is rupa, impinges on one of the sensedoors, it is experienced by several cittas arising in a sense- door process. Counting from the "past bhavanga", there are seventeen moments of citta if the sense-door process of cittas runs its full course. Rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, and thus it falls away when that process is over. The seventeen moments of citta are as follows: 1. atita-bhavanga (past bhavanga). 2. bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga). 3. bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga), the last bhavanga arising before the object is experienced through the sense-door. 4. five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness (pancadvaravajjana-citta), which is a kiriyacitta. 5. sense-cognition (dvi-pancavinnana, seeing-consciousness, etc.), which is vipakacitta. 6. receiving-consciousness (sampaticchana-citta), which is vipakacitta. 7. investigating-consciousness (santirana-citta) which is vipakacitta. 8. determining-consciousness (votthapana-citta) which is kiriyacitta. 9-15. seven javana-cittas ("impulsion", kusala citta or akusala citta in the case of non-arahats). 16. registering-consciousness (tadarammana-citta) which may or may not arise, and which is vipaka citta. 17. registering-consciousness. After a sense object has been experienced through a sense-door it is experienced through the mind-door, and then that object has just fallen away** == So in these process the javana cittas (9-15) are not vipaka nor is votthapana citta nor pancadvaravajjana-citta. hope that clarifies. Please ask if more details are needed. Robert In a In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi Robert > > go to the website again > it is under the Section Dhamma then you will see there is link > Abhidhamma, then choose Paramatthadhamma, Summary of. There is no url > bc the website is make in such a way. > > kind regards > Ken O > > P.S> sorry all for wasting you bandwidth > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Sorry Ken, > > I still can't find it. Do you have an url you can post. > > rob > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" > > wrote: 28364 From: Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58,groups of rupa Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/27/03 4:45:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > op 24-12-2003 19:29 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > quotes Larry: > >>Does this mean > >>>masculinity or femininity predominates at any given moment because of > >>>predominance condition? > > > >you wrote: > > > >>N: I do not think predominates, but only one faculty, either femininity or > >>masculinity is there. > >However, in a previous reply to me you wrote: > > >>N: It does not arise from time to time but all the time, in a group of > >>rupas. > > > >H: Now, when I said "from time to time," I meant not in every mindstate. > >I'm not clear on what you are saying with regard to this. Are you saying > that > >in every process of states it occurs, but not in each state? > Nina: It does not arise in every group of rupas, only in those groups of > rupa which are produced by kamma, the decads. Thus not by citta, temperature > or nutrition. Kamma keeps on producing these groups throughout life. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I see - thank you. It does make sense to me that male/female sexuality be kamma vipaka. --------------------------------------------------------- > I am not speaking at all about mind-states, cittas. Here we are just > speaking about groups of rupa which arise and fall away all the time. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, okay. I forget at times that while Abhidhamma never allows for consciousness to arise without an object, it does allow for rupas to arise without being the arammana for an act of consciousness. Abhidhamma allows for a harder dualistic separation between nama and rupa than I accept. So it is! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- > Nina. > ============================== BTW, Nina, while we are talking about objects of consciousness (or at least *I* was ;-), I would appreciate it if you could write a word or two about the possible objects of bhavangacittas. In ADL I think I understood you to say at one point that their objects come through none of the six sense doors, which perplexed me, because I coudn't imagine what sort of object that might be. I probably misunderstood what you wrote there. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28365 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Sarah, S:I expect this thread may take us as long as it takes to go through SN, LOL! And what a great start to SN. Apologies again for not being able to participate as much as I'd like for this month, but I see you've encouraged plenty of other folk;-);-) James: Hmmm…don't know if it will last that long, but could be!;-). Yes, the discussion is going quite nice, but I wanted to turn away for a moment to continue this lovely banter with you. (For someone who can't participate as much, you sure churn out the posts! ;-) S:Ah...just to clarify: being enamored with SN and his great work doesn't mean that I agree with all his personal comments like the following one about 'deliberate attempt...'.After all, again who makes a deliberate attempt etc;-) James: Well, if B. Bodhi can't change your mind, I'm sure that I won't be able to either! ;-) Actually, my goal isn't to change your mind, I just want you to see my perspective; and for me to see your perspective. I think I have gotten much closer to understanding where you are coming from with this post. S:Compare this quote and note Nina gave on the Vism thread: >.......while reading, we do not have to stop reading while considering in between different cittas, feelings, emotions. We talked before on how what has just fallen away can be object of awareness. Cittas roll on exceedingly fast. We read in the "KIndred Sayings"(V, 143, on the Stations of Mindfulness, ChI, §4, Sala that the Buddha spoke about the four Applications of Mindfulness: The Co has a note to one-pointed: This is what happens. When awareness and right understanding arise, there is one-pointedness (momentary) on the object of awareness, and just for a moment (in between talking, in between reading!) there is calm, because there is kusala citta with understanding arising in between all those akusala moments of being attached, conceited, angry, etc. James: Okay, I think I understand more your position. First, from my perspective, I want you to realize that I don't find this very persuasive. Of all the suttas on meditation practice, to pick one word, and then one definition of that one word from a commentary, to form a whole philosophy of practice contrary to meditation practice, flies in the face of common sense. Second, even these moments of one- pointedness, `mini-meditations', would still need to occur by intent, in my estimation, for them to be at all effective. Are they supposed to just occur spontaneously? From my understanding, you believe that panna (wisdom), conditioned by wise reflection on the suttas, good companions, etc, is supposed to create the conditions for these mini- meditations to spontaneously occur. That is really leaving things to chance don't you think? It's like trying to shoot a target with a blindfold on. In meditation, the intent isn't to become enlightened or even to become wise, those things are beyond control, the intent is just to have concentration on arising and falling phenomena; the rest will take care of itself. Of course sitting with the desire to become wise will get a person absolutely nowhere, and that is not what I do. Even the Buddha, before he sat underneath that Bodhi tree, and swore to himself that he would find the answer to what he was seeking or he would die trying, had set up the right conditions. I don't think that it is important to focus on the fact that he really wanted the answer, it is more important to focus on that he was willing to die…and die he did. He died so that he could live, live without suffering. We all have to be willing to die before we die, in order to truly live. (Sorry for sounding like some sort of fortune cookie! LOL) S:He may join in;-) Unless there is any clear and developed right understanding at the level of satipathana or samatha bhavana, we cannot call either kind vipassana or jhana meditation and any wrong view of self or attachment to results always brings potentially `dangerous' results imho. I think it's only too easy to underestimate the dangers of any misguided practice. None of this is intended personally to either you or Jeff. James: Oh, I completely agree! But realize that meditation, like developing right understanding, is a gradual process. When people first begin to meditate they may have all kinds of lofty ideas of becoming wise and enlightened. Eventually, those ideas will go away or the meditator will become bored with the practice and stop, because it doesn't bring them what they expected. Those who continue the practice do so because, little by little, it brings them peace and wisdom. Or, if they are like me, they have faith in what the Buddha taught, so they just do it. Becoming enlightened isn't so important anymore, but it isn't ruled out as a possiblity. As the practice continues even more, they will lose more and more of their self identification. Eventually, they will reach a critical point, where they will either have to be willing to die, their selfhood, or stop. Sarah, we all have wrong view of self, it isn't possible to completely get rid of that before beginning meditation. But the practice, if done correctly, will get rid of it on its own. It is important to have a good teacher at some point, or read and educate yourself about the process, before beginning. I also don't go in for any of those fancy methods of meditation; just plain ole vanilla flavored vipassana is good enough for me. ;-) S:That might help my concentration, LOL! Quite honestly, James, I have no interest or concern to `practice right concentration during everyday life'. For me, such a concern would merely be a mark of strong clinging. Similarly, of course we all like having pleasant feeling and joy, but the wishing for these states and the dismay when they prove to be so fleeting are the very reason we're discussing here. There's a big difference between wholesome states arising naturally by the right conditions and trying and craving to make these happen. James: Right, but doing nothing will result in just that: Nothing! The most we can do is set up the right conditions, by following the Eightfold Path in our lives, and let the rest take care of itself. There is no trying or craving, there is just faith in the Triple Gem. S:;-) Sorry if it sounded like I was pretending to be like a Buddha, LOL. A gradual path, a gradual development of right understanding and a gradual appreciation and understanding of realities as not self. You wrote very nicely about anatta in your post to Starkid Sandy. Just hearing and considering a little is a start and this 11 year old student is indeed fortunate to hear a little now. James: Meditation is a gradual path. Believe me, I have been practicing for years, it is very gradual! ;-) And I haven't progressed as smoothly or as nicely as others but I believe I have a lot of bad, accumulated karma; oh well, such is life. Yes, I hope I planted a seed in Sandy which may grow into faith in the Triple Gem one day, but that will be up to Sandy. S:;-) This would be a good one for KenH to take up if he finds the baton;-)This is the point, however much we talk about anatta, there is still the idea of `I am James' or Sarah to work hard or focus or be diligent. James: Gosh, everyone is passing this baton around and I don't have anyone to take my baton! LOL! See, bad karma. ;-) There is no self, but there is the doing. No doer, only doing. Metta, James 28366 From: Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 2:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi, James - In a message dated 12/27/03 10:01:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > James: Okay, I think I understand more your position. First, from my > perspective, I want you to realize that I don't find this very > persuasive. Of all the suttas on meditation practice, to pick one > word, and then one definition of that one word from a commentary, to > form a whole philosophy of practice contrary to meditation practice, > flies in the face of common sense. Second, even these moments of one- > pointedness, `mini-meditations', would still need to occur by intent, > in my estimation, for them to be at all effective. Are they supposed > to just occur spontaneously? From my understanding, you believe that > panna (wisdom), conditioned by wise reflection on the suttas, good > companions, etc, is supposed to create the conditions for these mini- > meditations to spontaneously occur. That is really leaving things to > chance don't you think? It's like trying to shoot a target with a > blindfold on. > > In meditation, the intent isn't to become enlightened or even to > become wise, those things are beyond control, the intent is just to > have concentration on arising and falling phenomena; the rest will > take care of itself. Of course sitting with the desire to become > wise will get a person absolutely nowhere, and that is not what I > do. Even the Buddha, before he sat underneath that Bodhi tree, and > swore to himself that he would find the answer to what he was seeking > or he would die trying, had set up the right conditions. I don't > think that it is important to focus on the fact that he really wanted > the answer, it is more important to focus on that he was willing to > die…and die he did. He died so that he could live, live without > suffering. We all have to be willing to die before we die, in order > to truly live. (Sorry for sounding like some sort of fortune cookie! > LOL) > =============================== I think the foregoing is wonderful, James. I particularly like your second paragraph in which you sound, not so much like a fortune cookie, but much more like one Jesus of Nazareth! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28367 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Robert I will rethink on the javana vithi citta again here is another qn related to that, Nina in her Abdhidhamma in Daily Life http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-03.htm states "Every time we experience an unpleasant. object through one of the five senses, there is akusala vipaka Every time we experience a pleasant object through one of the five senses there is kusala vipaka." When an object is pleasant object or unpleasants object can only be experience during the javana process and not at any beforehand cittas of the process, A Sujin quoted the Atthasalini whereby the king(javana) "partake" the object impinging on the dvara. So a vipaka citta when accept an object does not known whether this object is pleasant or unpleasant object. In other words, an object is seen by the eye but it is not known pleasant or unpleasant until javana process. In addition, vipaka is always indifference be it kusala or akusala vipaka. this process of kowning a vipaka is kusala or akusala will only be known after the javana process of the sense door. Comments please kind regards Ken O 28368 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Robert Hmm my rethink is very fast, when I listen to my music, I realise what it is meant by the javana vithi citta of the five sense door. Thanks for reminding me that javana is of a different jati, I was confused just now. However my second qns on vipaka plesant and unpleasant awaits your kind comments. kind rgds Ken O 28369 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi James J: Are they supposed to just occur spontaneously? From my understanding, you believe that panna (wisdom), conditioned by wise reflection on the suttas, good companions, etc, is supposed to create the conditions for these mini- meditations to spontaneously occur. That is really leaving things to chance don't you think? It's like trying to shoot a target with a blindfold on. k: Yes they occur spontaneously bc it is the way things are. Just like good deeds reap good fruits. As long as there is sati + panna, we leave the rest to chances, as enlightment cannot be forced or control, isn't this also a chance ;-) J: In meditation, the intent isn't to become enlightened or even to > become wise, those things are beyond control, the intent is just to > have concentration on arising and falling phenomena; the rest will > take care of itself. k: When you concentrate, are you staying in place on one kasina, as the sutta on "Crossing over the Flood", those who stayed sinks. When Buddha say "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place.", means going with the flow, which means the discerning the flow of cittas and not damming the flow of cittas with concentration of a kasina. kind regards Ken O p.s. - isn't "the rest will take care of itself" also meant taking chances :) cheers 28370 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:35am Subject: RE: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Ken O, I think a clarification of the dhamma taught by anybody is a fantastic idea. Because the Buddha is a samma-sambuddha, he taught us the realities that he had penetrated by panna, the teachings (reflecting the truths) do not conflict. I was reminded that if we think the teachings conflict, either we don't understand it yet, or whoever is teaching it is not teaching what the Buddha had taught. > My understanding is that Vipaka citta are kamma produced hence there > is no way we can decide it is kusala or aksuala for its process of 17 > moments of Vipaka cittas. One can only make a difference in the mind > door, where whereby only kusala citta or akusala cittas could arise > to affect the latent tendecies and accumulations for future vipaka > cittas. This means Chapter 5 is not correct bc vipaka cittas are > vithi citta but not javana-vithi-citta and they cannot accumulate > latent tendecies as explain in Chapter 3. > Do you know that the sense door process comprises of vipaka, kiriya, and kusala/akusala? The sense door process is not purely vipaka, it has: 1) Avajjana (1 moment - kiriya) 2) Vinanana (1 moment - vipaka) 3) Sampatichanna (1 moment - vipaka) 4) Santirana (1 moment - vipaka) 5) Votappana (1 moment - kiriya) 6) Javana (7 moments, kusala or akusala in non-arahats) 7) Tatalampana (2 moments - vipaka) Although undiscernable by us, the kusala/akusala vipaka cittas are differentiated by the Abhidhamma. There are 5 possible pairs of the sense door vipaka (in position 2 above): one set kusala vipaka, and the other akusala vipaka. I think they can be differentiated by their characteristics, with highly refined panna. What she meant about the accumulation in the sense door is at position 6 (javana), where tendencies are accumulated, even in the sense door. In the mind door, the process is less complicated (even if it is way more prevalent than the sense doors) 1) Avajjana (1 moment - kiriya) 2) Javana (7 moments, kusala or akusala in non-arahats) 3) Tatalampanna (2 moments - vipaka) The tendencies are accumulated only in the position 2 here as well. kom 28371 From: Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi, Ken (and James) - In a message dated 12/27/03 11:15:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi James > > J: Are they supposed to just occur spontaneously? From my > understanding, you believe that panna (wisdom), conditioned by wise > reflection on the suttas, good companions, etc, is supposed to create > the conditions for these mini- meditations to spontaneously occur. > That is really leaving things to chance don't you think? It's like > trying to shoot a target with a blindfold on. > > k: Yes they occur spontaneously bc it is the way things are. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: What do you mean by "spontaneously," Ken? Surely you don't mean "randomly, without cause." ------------------------------------------------ Just> > like good deeds reap good fruits. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay. So here you require a cause for the arising of wisdom. Is the only cause the study of the teachings? And does the study of the teachings occur without volition? ------------------------------------------------ As long as there is sati + panna,> > we leave the rest to chances, as enlightment cannot be forced or > control, isn't this also a chance ;-) ------------------------------------------------ Howard: And why should mindfulness at a high level occur? Randomly, or due to causes and conditions? And does intentional paying of attention play no role in this? ------------------------------------------------ > > > J: In meditation, the intent isn't to become enlightened or even to > >become wise, those things are beyond control, the intent is just to > >have concentration on arising and falling phenomena; the rest will > >take care of itself. > > > k: When you concentrate, are you staying in place on one kasina, as > the sutta on "Crossing over the Flood", those who stayed sinks. > When Buddha say "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, > without staying in place.", means going with the flow, which means the > discerning the flow of cittas and not damming the flow of cittas with > concentration of a kasina. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Are you now presenting kasina practice and samatha bhavana as an example of what the Buddha meant by "sinking?" Are you maintaining that the Buddha cautioned against samatha bhavana and the jhanas? -------------------------------------------------- > > > > kind regards > Ken O > > p.s. - isn't "the rest will take care of itself" also meant taking > chances :) cheers > ========================= With metta., Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28372 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hi Christine: viharati: abide with. Vihhara: spending one's time, mode of life (as brahma viharas). I have the Vinaya, but I have always trouble with PTS annotations. Nina. op 27-12-2003 02:07 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: >> Note 384 says Spk: The dwelling is called 'gross' on account of its > object. For he dwelt in the exercise of the divine eye and divine > ear element which take gross objects, namely, the form base and the > sound base. > 28373 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 10:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: moha Dear Sarah, This passage is wonderful and helps to clarify the intimate connection between restlessness and moha, and their role in generating the round. I still want to work through the "restlessness" cetasika as it appears in, say, well into an intensive meditation retreat at a time when calm and peaceful lobhamulacittani arise, and how "restlessness" is experienced in sloth-and-torpor moments... Metta, Dan > D:> > I wonder what "darts among" means... > .... > dart = javaapeti.* > > cf Vibh-a (Dispeller 617): > > ".....And it causes to be unknown (avidita) the meaning of heap in the > aggregates, the meaning of extent in the bases, the meaning of void in the > elements, the meaning of reality in the truths, the meaning of > predominance in the faculties, thus it is `ignorance'. It makes beings > hurry on in all the kinds of generation, destiny, existence, stations of > consciousness, abodes of beings in the endless round of rebirths, thus it > is `ignorance'. It hurries on *(javati)* in `woman', `man', etc that are > non-existent (avijjamaana) in the highest sense, it does not hurry on in > the existent aggregates, etc, thus it is `ignorance'. Furthermore it is > ignorance because it conceals the dependent origination and > dependently-originated states which are the [physical] basis and the > object of eye-consciousness and so on." > ***** > > *???? javaapeti = javati + apeti ?????* > > Javati Vedic ju (p. 280) javate intr. to hurry, junati trs. to incite, > urge: to run, hurry, hasten S I.33; J IV.213; Davs V.24; DhsA 265, pp. > juta. > > Apeti (p. 55) [apa + i, cp. Gr. a)/peimi, Lat. abeo, Goth. af-- iddja] to > go away, to disappear D I.180 (upeti pi apeti pi); J I.292; Sn 1143 (= nc > apagacchanti na vijahanti Nd2 66). -- pp. apeta (q. v.). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > > 28374 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58,groups of rupa Dear Howard, op 27-12-2003 15:52 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I see - thank you. It does make sense to me that male/female sexuality > be kamma vipaka. N: I should add for clarity that it is past kamma. Yes, from birth to death. Dhammasangani, Book II, here is the whole list of rupas. for kamma, p. 185, we have to look at: grasped at (upaadi.n.na.m.) That means produced by kamma. Now all this material is worked out in more detail in its Co, the Expositor. >> I am not speaking at all about mind-states, cittas. Here we are just >> speaking about groups of rupa which arise and fall away all the time. >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ahh, okay. I forget at times that while Abhidhamma never allows for > consciousness to arise without an object, it does allow for rupas to arise > without being the arammana for an act of consciousness. Abhidhamma allows for > a > harder dualistic separation between nama and rupa than I accept. So it is! ;-) N: ;-) ;-) Citta would get very, very tired to have as object all those groups of rupas, 27 different types for each of us, arising in clusters or units of octads, nonads, decads, undecads, duodecads, etc. And consider, not one octad at a time but many, all over the body, countless clusters. Many, many nonads, etc. Citta would have no time for any other object like visible object :-) This is really maddening, would drive citta crazy. LOL. H: BTW, Nina, while we are talking about objects of consciousness (or at > least *I* was ;-), I would appreciate it if you could write a word or two > about the possible objects of bhavangacittas. In ADL I think I understood you > to > say at one point that their objects come through none of the six sense doors, > which perplexed me, because I coudn't imagine what sort of object that might > be. I probably misunderstood what you wrote there. N: Yes, I have kept bhavanga on our pet(p...??) list. I do not forget and have a few thoughts to add to what I wrote in old post. I should add some new thing, otherwise I bore people to death. When I find time after some work on latent tendencies!!! Nina. 28375 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Dear Ken O, I like your remark on moha very much, it deludes us all the time, so persistent, it conditions moha arising with akusala citta, so that we take akusala for kusala. What a delusion. But they all work in the background, do not forget selfish desire. Lodewijk (my husband) said the other day: those terrible latent tendencies, how can we get to know them. What can we do about them. It is no bother to me if you ask, on the contrary. You are welcome, and I learn from your remarks! You really consider the Dhamma and I do appreciate this. You know, I reflect a lot on latent tendencies these days and if you ask this is a good condition for me. Nina. op 27-12-2003 10:31 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...: > Hi Nina > > Please dont bother with me, pse continue with your study on latent > tendency bc I have a hunch that it is a very impt piece of literary > work for Abdhidhamma and it is seldom being explore and not > translated probably due to its technicality. I have a hunch that > Yamaka is crucial in understanding how moha works subtlely in the > background together with latent tendency esp in masking understanding > of anatta. 28376 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Dear Ken O, What is meant: vipakacitta is not an active citta, it does not cause any new accumulation of kusala or akusala. But, the latent tendencies that are dormant in each citta go on and on, are as it were passed on from citta to citta. No exception, thus also when vipakacitta arises and falls away the passing on continues. As to knowing when vipakacitta experienced a pleasant object or not, it may never be known, it passes too quickly. Not even in the following mind-door process. Is it not true that there are so many moments of seeing pleasant visible objects and unpleasant visible objects, but such moments just pass. We do not care, and if the object is strongly unpleasant, we think with aversion usually about a concept of a thing we find ugly. That happens in daily life. Nina. op 27-12-2003 12:38 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...: > "Vipaka-citta does not accumulate latent tendencies in continuation > because each vipaka-citta arises from accumulated kusala-kamma or > akusala-kamma as paccaya. 28377 From: Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:09am Subject: An Interesting But Fanciful Scenario Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58,groups of rupa Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 12/27/03 9:53:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > In ADL I think I understood you to > say at one point that their objects come through none of the six sense > doors, > which perplexed me, because I couldn't imagine what sort of object that > might > be. I probably misunderstood what you wrote there. > ========================== I've been thinking over this matter a bit more, and some musings occur to me. They are not conclusions, but just some thoughts.) Specifically what you wrote in ADL that I was referring to is the following: "Every citta must have an object and thus the bhavanga-citta too has an object. Seeing has what is visible as object; hearing has sound as object, but the bhavanga-citta has an object which is different from the objects presenting themselves through the senses and through the mind-door. " Now, what I have been wondering about is whether the object might not be an *absence*, specifically the absence of all positive sense objects, the absence of all sights, sounds, tastes, odors, feelings, emotions, inclinations, thoughts etc, etc. Whether or not one can say that an absence is or is not known through the mind door I'm not sure. My initial thinking is that yes, it would be through the mind door, but I could be wrong on that, particularly with regard to such a total absence. In any case, what would be interesting about the object of a bhavanga citta being such an absence is that this would lend support to the interpretation of "luminous mind" as bhavanga citta. It EVEN might suggest that the state of the arahant beyond death could be that of a bhavangasota with an extraordinarily heightened level of clarity, so that the state becomes one of an unchanging, pristinely clear awareness of ultimate absence (nibbana) rather like the peace of absolutely dreamless sleep, but with full awareness. I'm not saying I believe ANY of this, Nina. But in thinking about the idea of bhavanga cittas as having an object not coming through any of the sense doors, this scenario occurred to me. With fanciful metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28378 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 2:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Dear Jon & Sarah, Thanks for you code ' Dhammanupassana Satipatthana ' , contemplation of mind object. It is quite clear and readily understandable. Htoo Naing ... S: I'd go further and suggest `one' doesn't `get' it at all. Even the experiencing of jhana states is anatta. I hope we continue our discussion, even with long intervals is fine. I appreciate your reflections and comments. Metta, Sarah ===== *Jon The objects of awareness under the Satipatthana Sutta are dhammas (realities), not concepts. The consciousness/mind section refers to the dhamma that is the moment of consciousness. The mind objects/mental objects section refers to the dhammas (realities) that can be the objectof a moment of consciousness, and this in turn means any and all realities(including those covered by the other 3 sections of the sutta). To give an example. At a moment of seeing there is contact between the consciousness that sees and visible object. That visible object is a reality and also, at that precise moment, a mind object (it is the object of seeing consciousness). So the visible object at that moment falls under both the rupas' section and the mind object' section of the 4 satipatthanas. This helps remind us that the 4 sections in the sutta are merely ways of classifying realities and are not in themselves absolutes. Only dhammas (realties) can be the object of satipatthana, because only something that has its own characteristic that is capable of being experienced is considered to be a dhamma'; anything that does not, is not. In the Satipatthana Sutta itself, the 'eligible' mind-objects are described in different ways. One of these ways is as the 5 khandhas (Aggregates), and these 5 khandhas encompass all dhammas (other than Nibbana). I have pasted below the passage from The Way of Mindfulness' Jon Section on Mental Objects 2. The Aggregates "And, further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu thinks:'Thus is material form [rupa]; thus is the arising of material form; and thus is the disappearance of material form. Thus is feeling [vedana]; thus is the arising of feeling; and thus is the disappearance of feeling.Thus is perception [sanna]; thus is the arising of perception; and thus is the disappearance of perception. Thus are the formations [sankhara]; thus is the arising of the formations;and thus is the disappearance of the formations. Thus is consciousness [vinnana]; thus is the arising of consciousness; and thus is the disappearance of consciousness.' Thus he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, internally... and clings to naught in the world. "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object inthe mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging." [ends] ********** END QUOTE 28379 From: Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 9:06am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi again, all - A drop more: There is the old advice to "make haste slowly." That is similarly paradoxical to neither pushing forward (straining, which leads to being swept away) nor staying in place (halting, which leads to sinking). The idea is mainly that of executing subtle action, I think. It is reminiscent of the Buddha's instructions to keep the lute's strings neither too taut nor too slack. And perhaps that's what's going on in this sutta: a call for middle-way action, avoiding the extremes. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28380 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 2:40pm Subject: Re: How To get Through The Samsara ( 11 ) Dear Ken H and Dhamma Friends, Thanks for your interest in these posts Ken H. Please see my reply to your points. I hope the matter is clear. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H : After all your brilliant posts explaining the true meaning of satipatthana, you follow up with this parody! A conceptual imitation of satipatthana does nothing but ridicule the real thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Do you really think that this is just conceptual imitation of Satipatthana? There are many posts coming regarding the practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H Why are you suggesting that the Buddha taught such a practice? Where in the Pali Canon,is it said that mindfulness of concepts leads to mindfulness of dhammas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Did I say ' mindfulness of concepts leads to mindfulness of Dhamma ' ? But mindfulness of all leads to mindfulness of dhamma including concepts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H : There are some lines in the Satipatthana-sutta that can be taken this way but, to do so, would be to take them completely out of context with the rest of the Tipitaka. The commentaries hasten to explain that mindfulness of the concept of walking (for example), is not what the Buddha taught. You, yourself, have acknowledged this. But now you would have us believe that mindfulness of concepts does play a part. Why? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Which concepts do you exactly mean? Please clarify this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > HN: > While he is practising sitting in meditation, he is > being aware of what exactly he is doing and what is > arising at each moment. When he considers that he wants > to stop sitting and wants standing, he knows that he > wants them. Then his mindfulness on breath is shifted to > his body position. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H : Why, has he stopped breathing? Who is watching the breathing while there is mindfulness of 'wanting to stand up?' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Did I say ' he has stopped breathing' ? I said ' his mindfulness on breath is shifted to his body position '. This means mindfulness is shifted from breath to body position. No one is watching the breathing while mindfulness is on another object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H : The same question applies to everything that follows in this surprising post. Who is to say there should be mindfulness of 'having the eyes open?' At that time, where is the mindfulness of walking, of keeping the back straight, of looking ahead, of what the left foot is doing, of what the right foot is doing, of wanting to go to the toilet? In other words: the whole practice is illogical and unworkable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : It is very very logical. It works brilliently. I wrote for a practitioner who is practising seriously like at a retreat. But out of that time, the same principle should be followed. Even when we are driving, mindfulness can arise like '..heard a horn sounding..see a road sign..wanna slow down..wanna look at milet..wanna adjust the speed.. and so on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > HN: > He wants to put down the glass on the table. He > does that consciously. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H : If he does, can there be satipatthama at that exact, same, moment? Or is he only concerned with the future? Kind regards, Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : The idea arises ' wanna put down '. That is a Citta with Chandha (wish ). Then Cittaja Rupa followed bending, stretching movement of hand. When he has well practised, he will see that he experiences Vayo. Not bending, stretching which are concept. As he is looking at the very present moment, there is nothing concerned with future. Even he thinks for future, he will notices that thinking is ongoing and so forth. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 28381 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 2:45pm Subject: Re: How To get Through The Samsara ( 11 ) Dear Ken H, It is not a problem. As long as we are discussing, argueing, searching and researching, noting, marking, studying, practising and so on at this forum, we are ciber friends. And we can support each other in Dhamma matter. Without questioning, and answering and discussion, it is hard to judge the value of posts. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing and all, > > Please accept my apologies. My previous message was very > badly worded. What was meant to be 'spirited debate' has > turned out brash and offensive. I will be more careful > in future. > > Kind regards, > Ken H 28382 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:03pm Subject: Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders To ensure we are all on the same page :-), I have typed out this interesting sutta to refer to while discussing. metta and peace Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 1 The Book with Verses (Sagaathaavagga) 1. Devataasamyutta 35 (5) Faultfinders On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Saavatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anaathapindika's Park. Then, when the night had advanced, a number of "faultfinding" devataas, of stunning beauty, illuminating the entire Jeta's Grove, approached the Blessed One and stood in the air. [n.76] Then one devataa, standing in the air, recited this verse in the presence of the Blessed One: "If one shows oneself in one way While actually being otherwise, What one enjoys is obtained by theft Like the gains of a cheating gambler."[n.77] {Another devataa:} "One should speak as one would act; Don't speak as one wouldn't act. The wise clearly discern the person Who does not practise what he preaches." {The Blessed One:} "Not by mere speech nor solely by listening Can one advance on this firm path of practice By which the wise ones, the meditators, Are released from the bondage of Maara." "Truly, the wise do not pretend, For they have understood the way of the world. By final knowledge the wise are quenched: They have crossed over attachment to the world." Then those devataas, having alighted on the earth, prostrated themselves with their heads at the Blessed One's feet and said to the Blessed One. "A transgression overcame us, venerable sir, being so foolish, so stupid, so unskilful that we imagined we could assail the Blessed One. Let the Blessed One pardon us for our transgression seen as such for the sake of restraint in the future." Then the Blessed One displayed a smile. [n.78] Those devataas, finding fault to an even greater extent, then rose up into the air. One devataa recited this verse in the presence of the Blessed One: "If one does not grant pardon To those who confess transgression, Angry at heart, intent on hate, One strongly harbours enmity." [The Blessed One:] "If there was no transgression, If here there was no going astray, And if enmities were appeased, Then one would be faultless here." [n.79] [A devataa:] "For whom are there no transgressions? For whom is there no going astray? Who has not fallen into confusion? And who is the wise one, ever mindful?" [The Blessed One:] "The Tathaagata, the Enlightened One, Full of compassion for all beings: For him there are no transgressions, For him there is no going astray; He has not fallen into confusion, And he is the wise one, ever mindful. "If one does not grant pardon To those who confess transgression, Angry at heart, intent on hate, One strongly harbours enmity. In that enmity I do not delight, Thus I pardon your transgression. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah 28383 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:20pm Subject: Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders Dear Group, Has there ever been a Devataa who wasn't 'of stunning beauty', not an ugly one, just a common, everyday attractive one? The suttas wouldn't sound the same, of course ... Why are they of stunning beauty? This lot don't seem to have nice natures, seemingly arrogant, quick tempered, self-centred, judgmental, and calculatingly rude to the Blessed One. If everyone is beautiful, is anyone beautiful? Doesn't beauty only arise out of comparison and opinion? Do Devataa think of each other as beautiful, or is it only we (as a separate species) that consider them beautiful? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Saavatthi in Jeta's > Grove, Anaathapindika's Park. Then, when the night had advanced, a > number of "faultfinding" devataas, of stunning beauty, illuminating > the entire Jeta's Grove, approached the Blessed One and stood in the > air. [n.76] 28384 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's tree and a little hint ..Continuation of Pannatta Dear Carl, Thanks for your question and your interest in Pannatta. Here is my reply to your letter. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl.. Htoo Naing am I correct in thinking thusly: Vision, seeing the tree, is a mental construct to the full extent that it is impossible to view the "outside world" as the outside world. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : When you say ' see a tree ', there have been billions and billions of Cittas have happened. In a series of Vithi Cittas ( conscious mind ), there are 17 Cittas in total that depend on the present Rupa. At the end of 17 Cittas, the last Citta and Rupa fall away at the same time. If the object is quite clear, the series is called ' Atimahanta Arammana ' or very clear object. Rupa has lifespan of 17 Cittakkhana or 51 Khanas. 1 Cittakkhana last 3 Khanas. Upada ( arising ), Thi ( persisting ) and Banga (vanishing ). So there are 51 Khanas to live ( for a Rupa ). But Rupa works well when it has its full strength. So the very first Khana does not cause any effect. But 1 Bhavanga Citta passes away. It is called Atita Bhavanga Citta or past-living-consciousness. As a strong object hit, series of Bhavanga Cittas have been shaked. The 2nd Bhavanga Citta is called Bhavanga Calana or shaking-living- consciousness. As something is coming or as something hit, Bhavanga Cittas have to stop. The 3rd Citta is Bhavanguppaccheda or cutting- living-consciousness. It falls away. The 4th Citta is conscious mind. A Citta arises considering from which sense-door is the hitting sense is arising. It is Pancadvara Avajjana Citta or 5-sense-door-contemplating-consciousness. It passes away. The 5th Citta is Cakkhuvinnana Citta ( in case of seeing ). It is eye- sense-consciousness. It just sees. The 6th Citta is Sampaticchana Citta. It is receiving-consciousness. It receives the sense that was sensed by Cakkhuvinnana Citta. It falls away. The 7th Citta is Santirana Citta. It is investigting-consciousness. Next 8th Citta is Manodvara Avajjana Citta. It arises as Votthabbana Citta. It is deciding mind. It is determining-consciousness. It decides how to feel the sense. Then there follow 7 successive Cittas. They are called Javana Cittas. They are known as impulse-consciousness. They feel the sense that was experiensed by Pancadva Avajjana, Cakkhuvinnana, Sampaticchana, Santirana, Votthabbana. The last Javana Citta is 15th Citta. The 16th and 17th Cittas are Tadarammana Citta. They are deep-feeling- consciousness. At the end of all the 17th Citta both 17th Citta and Rupa vanish. Next Manodvara Vithi Cittas follow. In between further Cakkhuvinnana Vithi Cittas series follow. The sense object is being considered. It is such a shape. Next series shows it is such a colour. Next series contemplates on essence of that sight. Next series considers general name for the sight. Next series looks at specific name for the concept ( tree ) like pineapple. Next series estimates its age. Next series to some detailings and billions and billions of Cittas have happened. There is no ' We ' in these processes. Brain is just a work station. Actual sight-consciousness arises at eye or Cakkhayatana or Cakkhu Pasada or Cakkhu Vatthu. The object seems to be taken to us and we see it. Or we go there to the object and take it. It is wrong to say, ' the true nature of the *outside world* is unknowable. Functions of Cittas and Cetasikas are to know both outside world and inside world. When we are saying Pannatta, actually we are speaking about ultimate realities. In the ultimate sense there are only Citta, Cetasika, Rupa and Nibbana. Pannatta is not an ultimate realities. But no one will say it is wrong to say this is a tree and so on. Because it is conventionally true and very true. There are two kind of Pannatta. Attha Pannatta ( meaning of a dhamma ) and Sadda Pannatta ( sounding words ). The latter does have influence by language but not the former. I hope this matter is clear. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Seeing arises within our brain mass. We can not actually see or > know "out there". The knowing of the "outside world" does not take > place out there, the knowing is confined to within our brain mass. > Our senses only provide an interpretation of the objects and > activities of the outside world. The true nature of the *outside > world* is unknowable. > > Is this Panatta? Or is Panatta more closely tied to the "word" we > use to describe or create a concept of the *tree*? Is Panatta a > result of language/ideas or is Panatta more akin to the objective > world being in our head? > > I don't know if I am being very clear, but thanks for any clarity > you may offer. Carl 28385 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Dear Howard, It has been sorted out in our discussion. Thanks for your reply. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo - > > In a message dated 12/26/03 3:06:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > > > Howard said, Panatta arises and falls away. I asked him in which way. > > But he failed to answer, I think. > > > ========================= > I maintain that only in the sense of 'pa~n~natti' as "thoughts" or > "ideas" or other mental constructs. They come and go as objects of consciousness. > But I do not think that their referents (such as trees and cars) arise and > fall away, because they never even exist at all except in a manner of speaking. > > With metta, > Howard 28386 From: Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders Hi, Christine (and all) - Fascinating! If the Buddha were "the Lord, God," and these were some of his angels, their leader might be Satan, himself! This sounds like the sort of revolt-type story that might have lead to renegade-angels legends. In any case, these are devas who, because of their extreme pride, are probably not long for the deva realms! They're probably headed towards the realm of demigods/titans. BTW, pride doesn't seem to be mentioned all that much in the suttas - or am I wrong about that? In any case, I think that pride is a very sneaky defilement - it can ambush you when you think you are immune to it, and it is very harmful!! With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/27/03 6:05:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > To ensure we are all on the same page :-), I have typed out this > interesting sutta to refer to while discussing. > metta and peace > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > 1 The Book with Verses (Sagaathaavagga) > 1. Devataasamyutta > 35 (5) Faultfinders > > On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Saavatthi in Jeta's > Grove, Anaathapindika's Park. Then, when the night had advanced, a > number of "faultfinding" devataas, of stunning beauty, illuminating > the entire Jeta's Grove, approached the Blessed One and stood in the > air. [n.76] > > Then one devataa, standing in the air, recited this verse in the > presence of the Blessed One: > > "If one shows oneself in one way > While actually being otherwise, > What one enjoys is obtained by theft > Like the gains of a cheating gambler."[n.77] > > {Another devataa:} > "One should speak as one would act; > Don't speak as one wouldn't act. > The wise clearly discern the person > Who does not practise what he preaches." > > {The Blessed One:} > "Not by mere speech nor solely by listening > Can one advance on this firm path of practice > By which the wise ones, the meditators, > Are released from the bondage of Maara." > > "Truly, the wise do not pretend, > For they have understood the way of the world. > By final knowledge the wise are quenched: > They have crossed over attachment to the world." > > Then those devataas, having alighted on the earth, prostrated > themselves with their heads at the Blessed One's feet and said to the > Blessed One. "A transgression overcame us, venerable sir, being so > foolish, so stupid, so unskilful that we imagined we could assail the > Blessed One. Let the Blessed One pardon us for our transgression seen > as such for the sake of restraint in the future." > > Then the Blessed One displayed a smile. [n.78] Those devataas, > finding fault to an even greater extent, then rose up into the air. > One devataa recited this verse in the presence of the Blessed One: > > "If one does not grant pardon > To those who confess transgression, > Angry at heart, intent on hate, > One strongly harbours enmity." > > [The Blessed One:] > "If there was no transgression, > If here there was no going astray, > And if enmities were appeased, > Then one would be faultless here." [n.79] > > [A devataa:] > "For whom are there no transgressions? > For whom is there no going astray? > Who has not fallen into confusion? > And who is the wise one, ever mindful?" > > [The Blessed One:] > "The Tathaagata, the Enlightened One, > Full of compassion for all beings: > For him there are no transgressions, > For him there is no going astray; > He has not fallen into confusion, > And he is the wise one, ever mindful. > > "If one does not grant pardon > To those who confess transgression, > Angry at heart, intent on hate, > One strongly harbours enmity. > In that enmity I do not delight, > Thus I pardon your transgression. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28387 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:39pm Subject: Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders Hello Howard, and All, I hadn't yet read the notes to the sutta, and when I was typing the line "Then the Blessed One displayed a smile." I thought "Oh shoot! there's going to be trouble!" {Anyone involved in attempting conflict resolution, or who can remember an ill-spent youth, would have recognised the signs ... :-)} - I'm assuming the Blessed One knew which 'buttons' to press for the eventual benefit of these particular devas. Looking at note 78, it says:Spk: Why did the Buddha display a smile? It is said that those devas did not apologize in a way that accorded with the Buddha's true nature (sabhaavena); they acted as if there were no difference between the Tathaagata, the supreme person in the world, and ordinary worldly people. The Blessed One smiled with the intention: "When discussion arises from this, I will show the power of a Buddha and thereafter I will pardon them." Regarding Pride - would this come under the heading of Mana (conceit)? I can remember Sarah, RobK and others, once (after I had indulged in a long, angry story of injustice, pain and misery) trying to tactfully mention conceit and dosa and how righteous anger was part of it. Telling the Story of hurt and unfairness was just 'flying a flag' drawing attention to oneself, and what about the present moment? I think they said it more gently than this. :-) Hope I haven't got this terribly mixed up. ... I wonder where the 'flying the flag' quote came from? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine (and all) - > > Fascinating! If the Buddha were "the Lord, God," and these were some > of his angels, their leader might be Satan, himself! This sounds like the sort > of revolt-type story that might have lead to renegade-angels legends. > In any case, these are devas who, because of their extreme pride, are > probably not long for the deva realms! They're probably headed towards the > realm of demigods/titans. > BTW, pride doesn't seem to be mentioned all that much in the suttas - > or am I wrong about that? In any case, I think that pride is a very sneaky > defilement - it can ambush you when you think you are immune to it, and it is > very harmful!! > > With metta, > Howard 28388 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Howard > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What do you mean by "spontaneously," Ken? Surely you don't > mean "randomly, without cause." > ------------------------------------------------ k: Definitely not random. Definitely with cause, with a natural sequence. > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Okay. So here you require a cause for the arising of wisdom. > Is the only cause the study of the teachings? And does the study of the teachings occur without volition? > ------------------------------------------------ k: Ah... Howard, this is the fun part. Study, listening to dhamma are a only one part for the cause for rising wisdom. Definitely they are volition but the subtle differece whether is this volition a purposely caused volition or a natural caused volition. It is definitely difficult to see whether our actions now in study dhamma or emailing is natural caused or purposedly caused. For me, emailing in DSG now it is a purposed action and, due to prompted by materials in DSG, I have do my own private study and that is to me a natural caused volition. I dont purposedly go and read dhamma books bc I will definitely fall asleep, it must be something that is nagging inside me before I look at it. > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > And why should mindfulness at a high level occur? Randomly, > or due to causes and conditions? And does intentional paying of attention play no role in this? > ------------------------------------------------ k: Definitely everything in samasara always have caused and conditions including panna. > Howard: > Are you now presenting kasina practice and samatha bhavana > as an example of what the Buddha meant by "sinking?" Are you maintaining that the Buddha cautioned against samatha bhavana and the jhanas? > -------------------------------------------------- k: What Buddha said in the suttas is that the jhana is not reach by concentration only, it has to be accompany by the other mental states. Doing meditation on one objects will not get anyone anywhere bc it is not accompany by sati and panna. When the sutta said stilling of directed thoughts (as translated by TB in accesstoinsight), does it meant concentration. Furthermore can thoughts be still by just diverting it into one kasina, do causes and conditions can be still on one object? Can I said, I want my thoughts be thus and my thoughts not be thus. So can I choose my thoughts to be stilled and not to be stilled. Can I control it? Can we control thoughts that dont belong to anyone. Or was it meant the stilling of directed thoughts possibly be the eradication of mental restlessness which accompanied all aksuala cittas. kind rgds Ken O 28389 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Nina Thanks for clarify latent tendecies. No offense meant, when I first read what you wrote on vipaka citta experience pleasant and unpleasant object two years ago, it confounded me. Bc to me how does a citta which is kamma produced know it is pleasant or unpleasant. Then recently I read in the summary of paramatthas, then it made sense that it is javana that experience whether pleasant or unpleasant of kusala or akusala vipaka objects and not otherwise . Furthermore, this vipaka confounded me bc it is indifference (except for body) therefore should not be pleasant or unpleasant. To me it is known to be kusala or akusala vipaka bc of resultant effect of kamma and not bc of pleasant or unpleasant objects experience as the objects of it pleasant and unpleasant only be felt during javana process and not during vipaka citta (I stand to be corrected). Also hence that is also why wise attention could only start with the javana process and not beforehand bc as it is all vipaka or kiriya. As I say to Robert K before, I believe in knowning technicality. By understanding the way it works, it help me to remember, help a lot in my understanding. One day I may find the answer why four rupas arise together and not one at a time. Now I understand it by faith. kind regards Ken o 28390 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:33pm Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not/KenH Hi Christine, As usual in these matters, your advice is spot on. It does help to realise that my mental state is not unique. I've been through this sort of thing several times and it does eventually pass. I just wish it wasn't accompanied by foot-in-mouth disease. Then other people wouldn't have to suffer with me. :-( As per your advice, I have written a post for the Samyutta thread. But it might wait in my drafts folder for a while. :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hiya KenH, > > Post-Christmas depression and sluggishness are endemic. Are you > quite certain you aren't just ducking out to the Maleny Folk Festival 28391 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:26pm Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not/KenH Hiya KenH, If I can take up bandwith waxing lyrical about the blow flies on my back verandah, and whether devas think they are beautiful or not - why should anyone have ANY qualms about what they post? :-) :-) Bring it on! - the worst that can happen is you'll improve MY profile. :-) Have some compassion man! And that should be the Woodford Folk Festival (not Maleny). http://www.woodfordfolkfestival.com/webcast/webcast.html metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > As usual in these matters, your advice is spot on. It > does help to realise that my mental state is not unique. > > I've been through this sort of thing several times > and it does eventually pass. I just wish it wasn't > accompanied by foot-in-mouth disease. Then other people > wouldn't have to suffer with me. :-( > > As per your advice, I have written a post for the > Samyutta thread. But it might wait in my drafts folder > for a while. :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hiya KenH, > > > > Post-Christmas depression and sluggishness are endemic. Are you > > quite certain you aren't just ducking out to the Maleny Folk > Festival 28392 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 9:57pm Subject: Re: An Interesting But Fanciful Scenario Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58,groups of rupa Dear Howard, I want to give the matter careful thought. So, I need more time. I had afterthoughts about my jokes concerning citta and the groups of rupa, and I am really sorry, this was not appropriate. The subject of groups of rupa is not easy to understand. I should not take the matter lightly and better realise your point de vue about experience vis a vis rupas. Nina. op 27-12-2003 21:09 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ========================== > I've been thinking over this matter a bit more, and some musings occur > to me. They are not conclusions, but just some thoughts.) > Specifically what you wrote in ADL that I was referring to is the > following: "Every citta must have an object and thus the bhavanga-citta too > has an > object. 28393 From: Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:10pm Subject: Re: An Interesting But Fanciful Scenario Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58,groups of rupa Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/28/03 12:58:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard, > I want to give the matter careful thought. So, I need more time. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: By all means. I know that everything you write is carefully considered. ----------------------------------------------- > I had afterthoughts about my jokes concerning citta and the groups of rupa, > and I am really sorry, this was not appropriate. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not clear on what you are referring to, Nina, but I am not aware of *anything* you said that was inappropriate or that calls for the slightest apology. ------------------------------------------- The subject of groups of> > rupa is not easy to understand. I should not take the matter lightly and > better realise your point de vue about experience vis a vis rupas. > Nina. > > ======================= I look forward to reading what you have to say further both with regard to rupas and bhavanga cittas, whenever you are ready. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28394 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Dear ken, Glad your thinking helped. According to the texts one can go beyond any doubt about kamma and its results -see the Visuddhimagga, for instance, where at the third stage of vipassana insight wisdom sees clearly that conditions bring results and is sure that it was this way in the past and was this way in the future. How is that possible? Well they say the more that it becomes clear that the different jatis are different -that vipaka is different from akusala or kusala - then this helps to see more. And too what is it that insight sees when it sees the characteristics of dhammas? It sees also their functions and so there must be more understanding of say lobha (which arises during javana only) and how it has so much power. Verydifferent from the moments of seeing or hearing that are vipaka- they appear as barren of that sort of power. But the vipaka moments are always conditioned by either kusala or akusala kamma .It is irrelevant whether there is any knowing of this during the javana phase or not. It is just as it is. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi Robert > > I will rethink on the javana vithi citta again here is another qn > related to that, > > Nina in her Abdhidhamma in Daily Life > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-03.htm states > "Every time we experience an unpleasant. object through one of the > five senses, there is akusala vipaka Every time we experience a > pleasant object through one of the five senses there is kusala vipaka." > > When an object is pleasant object or unpleasants object can only be > experience during the javana process and not at any beforehand cittas > of the process, A Sujin quoted the Atthasalini whereby the > king(javana) "partake" the object impinging on the dvara. So a > vipaka citta when accept an object does not known whether this object > is pleasant or unpleasant object. In other words, an object is seen by > the eye but it is not known pleasant or unpleasant until javana > process. In addition, vipaka is always indifference be it kusala or > akusala vipaka. this process of kowning a vipaka is kusala or akusala > will only be known after the javana process of the sense door. > > > > Comments please > > > kind regards > Ken O 28395 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 11:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Ken O, and Michael Thanks, Ken, very useful. Especially interesting to me is the passage: "it is its mere occurrence in accordance with conditions that is called 'a dhamma with its own particular nature' (sabhava-dhamma)". I see this as confirming that 'sabhava' carries a meaning that is wholly consistent with the conditioned nature of dhammas. The word 'ultimate' is also discussed in the passage. Just before your quote it says, "The topics of Abhidhamma ... are from the ultimate standpoint four: consciousness, mentalities, materiality, and nibbana." The commentary is as follows: "'from the ultimate standpoint' -- by way of ultimate exposition, setting aside conventional talk" and "'Ultimate' means in the ultimate, highest and undistorted sense; or it is the sense that comes within the sphere of knowledge that is highest and ultimate." Also, CMA quotes a passage from the Vibhanga describing 'ultimate' as 'that which belongs to the domain of ultimate or supreme knowledge'. [CMA Guide to par. 2]. Michael, I'd be interested to hear your comments on these descriptions of 'sabhava' and 'paramattha'. Jon --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Jon and Michael ... > "Alternatively, consciouness is the mere act of being conscious > (cintana) . For it is its mere occurence in accordance with > conditions that is called 'a dhamma with its own particular nature' > (sabhava-dhamma). In consideration of this, it is the definition > of the particular nature of ultimate dhammas that is taken as > absolute: > the explanation by way of agent (kattar) and instrument (karana) > should be seen as a relative manner of speaking. For a dhamma's > being treated as an agent and also its being[treated] in > consequence > as an instrument, by attributing the state of agent to a group of > conascent dhammas, are both taken as a relative manner of speaking. > > The explanation in these terms should be understood as for the > purpose of indicating the non-existence of an agent, etc apart for > the particular nature of a dhamma." 28396 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 0:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] tanha and intention Ben --- Benjamin Jerome wrote: > Jon - ... > Could you please describe how to develop awareness of presently > occurring dhammas? > This sounds like mindfulness to me. (Yes, 'awareness' and 'mindfulness' are both standard translations of the Pali term 'sati' (as in 'satipatthana').) You'd like a description of how to develop awareness/mindfulness of presently occurring dhammas? Wouldn't we all! Unfortunately, there' s no such thing as a 'how-to' for satipatthana -- there are only descriptions of what it is and what are the conditions for its arising. Satipatthana is not something to be 'done', but then that is true of other kusala mindstates too (in fact it's true of any mindstate). Mindstates arise only according to a complex operation of conditions and, as you can observe from your own experience of the present moment is, deliberate intention is not a necessary condition for mindstates to occur. Satipatthana is a huge and complex topic, and one that lies at the heart of the whole teachings. I am happy to share what little I know, but I'm not saying anything will be clear ;-)). > Does this mean to simply pay attention to sounds, sights, smells, > tastes, touches, and thoughts in the here and now? You are right to mention the presently occurring the sense-door and mind-door objects as being the objects of sati, but that is not the whole story by any means. Firstly, the potential objects of sati include also the consciousness that experiences those sense- and mind-door objects, and also the mental factors accompanying that consciousness. And secondly, it's not a matter of 'paying attention', since that implies something 'to be done', and also a conscious selection of the (perceived) presently occurring object, whereas in fact that object has fallen away long before it can be attended to. So as a first step we need to know in quite some detail what is meant by 'dhamma' in this connection. It is helpful to know not just the names of the different dhammas but to have a good intellectual/theoretical knowledge of their description and characteristics. They are occurring now, as we read this message, but they are not seen as they truly are. For example, 'computer monitor' is not a presently occurring dhamma, but visible-object is. 'Letters on a screen' are not a presently occurring dhamma, but the reading and understanding of text cannot occur without numerous different kinds of successively occurring 'present dhammas'. Thinking, feeling and liking/disliking are all dhammas too, and are no doubt among those presently occurring. Does any of this make sense? Jon 28397 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 0:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, sex faculty. Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Howard: Well, of course there *could* be such a rupa, but it is nowhere made clear, so far as I can see, what is the nature of it. ... what is needed is some sort of demonstration of paramattha dhammas, not pa~n~natti, that are properly called by these terms. Jon: There is of course no rule that says if it's a dhamma that arises in this world it must therefore be experiencable by you and me or, conversely, if it can't be demonstrated to you and me then it can't be a dhamma arising in this world. ;-)) The whole underlying thread of the teachings is that dhammas cannot be experienced as they truly are except to developed panna. So it would be anomalous if the finer points of the teachings or the subtle rupas could somehow be 'demonstrated' to all and sundry. Countenancing the possibility of something, however, means nothing more than not setting one's minds against it (even where it may seem an unlikely proposition at first blush). It does not imply an 'act of faith', nor even a willingness to accept anything uncritically. Jon 28398 From: Sarah Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 4:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders Hi Christine & All, --- christine_forsyth wrote: >I wonder where the 'flying > the flag' quote came from? .... Here's one source: Atthasalini (bk 11, Part 11, ch2, 372) on conceit: “ “Conceit”, “overweening” and “conceitedness” signify mode and state. “Loftiness” is in the sense of rising upwards or of springing over others. “haughtiness”, i.e. in whom conceit arises, him it lifts up, keeps upraised. “Flaunting a flag” is in the sense of swelling above others. “Assumption’ means uplifting; conceit favours the mind all round. Of many flags the flag which raises above others is called a banner. So conceit arising repeatedly in the sense of excelling with reference to subsequent conceits is like a banner. That mind which desires the banner is said to be desirous of the banner (i.e. , self-advertisement). Such a state is desire for self-advertisement......” ..... Metta, Sarah ===== 28399 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:15am Subject: Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > Has there ever been a Devataa who wasn't 'of stunning beauty', not an > ugly one, just a common, everyday attractive one? I think that these are interesting questions (regardless of your joke to Ken H.). After giving it much thought, I would imagine that the devas do think of each other as beautiful. They exist in a different sphere where the same things that apply to us don't apply to them. They all have very good kamma to be born in this sphere, in which they are spontaneously born, and so they all have pleasure and beauty as a standard. But, ironically, not everyone considers them beautiful; consider the first stanza of this sutta (which I have quoted in whole previously) and the commentary notes: SN I, 46 "Nymphs" "Resounding with a host of nymphs, Haunted by a host of demons! This grove is to be called `Deluding': How does one escape from it?" Note 100: Spk relates the background story: In his previous life this deva had been an overzealous bhikkhu who had neglected sleep and food in order to attend to his meditation subject. Because of his excessive zeal, he died of a wind ailment and was immediately reborn in the Tavatimsa heaven amidst a retinue of celestial nymphs (acchara). The change occurred so quickly that he did not even know he had expired and thought he was still a bhikkhu. The nymphs tried to seduce him, but he rejected their amorous advances and tried to resume his meditation practice. Finally, when the nymphs brought him a mirror, he realized he had been reborn as a deva, but he thought "I did not practice the work of an ascetic in order to take rebirth here, but to attain the supreme goal of arahantship." Then, with his virtue still intact, surrounded by the retinue of nymphs, he went to the Buddha and spoke the first verse…" There is a very interesting Flash movie about devas at this link: http://www.metta.lk/special-effects/index.htm > metta and peace, > Christine Metta, James 28400 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:32am Subject: Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Ken O, k: Yes they occur spontaneously bc it is the way things are. Just like good deeds reap good fruits. As long as there is sati + panna, we leave the rest to chances, as enlightment cannot be forced or control, isn't this also a chance ;-) James: Okay, now we are going to get into some high philosophy. This approach to Buddhism that you and Sarah are advocating is more a synthesis of Buddhism and Gnosticism rather than pure Buddhism. Gnosticism is the belief that by cultivating an inherent wisdom that is present is only certain people, `Gnostics', these people may become enlightened and are never again reborn. Gnosticism and Buddhism actually share many similarities so it is quite easy to mix the two up. However, the difference is that the Buddha taught that the Path to Enlightenment is possible for anyone who follows the Eightfold Path, not just certain `wise' people. The Buddha accepted anyone into his Sangha because he believed this and taught this, not just to be nice. From my understanding, you believe that one must have this `spark of wisdom' (panna) already and that by wise reflection and good company this wisdom will intuitively grow without any direct effort. I'm sorry, but this is Gnosticism, not Buddhism. Not only that, but Gnostics believe that this inherent spark of wisdom must grow by individual, intuitive means, and learning the Abhidhamma would definitely not count because it is an outside source. The Buddha taught the Fourth Noble Truth which is that the round of samsara can be stopped for ANYONE who follows the Eightfold Path. It is a path of practice and not a description of any `mind moments' of those with enough panna (wisdom). For background information about Gnosticism: http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm k: When you concentrate, are you staying in place on one kasina, as the sutta on "Crossing over the Flood", those who stayed sinks. When Buddha say "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place.", means going with the flow, which means the discerning the flow of cittas and not damming the flow of cittas with concentration of a kasina. James: You have misinterpreted this sutta, it has nothing to do with concentration on a kasina (concentration subject); it has to do with following the Middle Way. Not only that, but your own Abhidhamma philosophy states that the flow of cittas cannot be `dammed' in anyway, from my understanding. kind regards Ken O Metta, James 28401 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Robert K > But the vipaka moments are always conditioned by either kusala or > akusala kamma .It is irrelevant whether there is any knowing of > this during the javana phase or not. It is just as it is. k: Hmm to me it can be quite significant. As said in Kotthita Sutta, about desire and passion arise in dependence of both forms and eye. Since eye consciouness is vipaka (with indifference feeling) so it is out of the equation, this means IMO javana process of the eye sense door process is the cause of such desire and passion. At least now IMO known that whenever a sense object is akusala in any sense door - this means it already brings the aksuala accumulation effect + latency. k: Furthermore, knowing technicality is impt, it builds faith (not blind ones) and develop understanding the Abhidhamma vis-a-vis Sutta. Moreover, it helps in discussion esp with a few good men here. ;-) kind regards Ken O 28402 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Jon and all, Jon: Michael, I'd be interested to hear your comments on these descriptions of 'sabhava' and 'paramattha'. Michael: I am sorry but I don’t think it would be profitable to continue the discussion about paramatha dhammas, sabhava and characteristics. I can see that there are very engrossed ideas about those themes among some members in this list. When one has such a strong attachment to some kind of view it can be very tiring to convince them otherwise. I don’t have the skill, time, and patience to do that. My best suggestion for those who view the Abhidhamma as metaphysics, considering dhammas as paramatha with sabhava and own characteristics, but that have an open mind to challenge their ideas, to study the Madhyamaka philosophy, in particular the writings of Nagarjuna. I am sure that this will only bring benefit over a long time. Metta Michael 28403 From: Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 4:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, sex faculty. Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/28/03 3:23:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > Howard: > Well, of course there *could* be such a rupa, but it is > nowhere made clear, so far as I can see, what is the nature of it. > ... what is needed is some sort of demonstration of paramattha > dhammas, not pa~n~natti, that are properly called by these terms. > > Jon: > There is of course no rule that says if it's a dhamma that arises in > this world it must therefore be experiencable by you and me or, > conversely, if it can't be demonstrated to you and me then it can't > be a dhamma arising in this world. ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: As I've pointed out before, Jon, it can't be demonstrated that there is no Brahman/Atman. There is no need to prove its nonexistence - it is sufficient for there to be no evidence for its existence for one to disbelieve. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > The whole underlying thread of the teachings is that dhammas cannot > be experienced as they truly are except to developed panna. So it > would be anomalous if the finer points of the teachings or the subtle > rupas could somehow be 'demonstrated' to all and sundry. > > Countenancing the possibility of something, however, means nothing > more than not setting one's minds against it (even where it may seem > an unlikely proposition at first blush). It does not imply an 'act > of faith', nor even a willingness to accept anything uncritically. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do countenance the possibility of the existence of masculinity and feminity rupas, and a jivitiidriya rupa, and also a Brahman/Atman. I disbelieve in their existences, but I don't rule them out as impossible. As far as bhavanga cittas are concerned, I not only don't disbelieve in them - I think it is plausible that they exist, dreamless sleep serving as possible experiential evidence, and the entire commentarial theory of processes of cittas striking me as ringing true. (Of course, I could be wrong about bhavanga cittas - there might be no such things - but I think there is reasonable support for a belief in such states.) ----------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28404 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:26am Subject: Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders Hello James, and Devataasamyuttanikayists (is there such a word? :-)), Thanks for the unusual website (quick download too) - for me, it underlines the dreariness and unattractiveness of relentless rebirth. As a Christian, I used to secretly think I would die of boredom in what I was taught of as Heaven, but I looked with hope to the verse where Jesus mentions "In my fathers' house are many mansions" as meaning reincarnation. I looked on it as being a possible new 'adventure' each time. Adventures on the T.V. screen don't hurt. Life is different. How strange that I used to find joy in the idea of rebirth .. how strange... These suttas about the Devas are a goldmine of hidden meanings. I am so glad you and Sarah introduced a deeper study of them. Previously, I had thought some of the verses were interesting, and the stories cute, but they really are a help to understanding the Dhamma more deeply. I can't quickly locate where you quoted this sutta in full previously, so have taken the liberty of typing it again for those without a copy of the Samyutta Nikaya. 1 46 (6) Nymphs "Resounding with a host of nymphs, Haunted by a host of demons! This grove is to be called 'Deluding' How does one escape from it?" [n.100] "'The straight way' that path is called, and 'fearless' is its destination. The chariot is called 'unrattling', Fitted with wheels of wholesome states. "The sense of shame is its leaning board, Mindfulness its upholstery; I call the Dhamma the charioteer, With right view running out in front. [n.101] "One who has such a vehicle - Whether a woman or a man - Has, by means of this vehicle, Drawn close to Nibbaana." [n.102] Further sentences in note 100 explain that the first verse revolves around a word play between Nandana, the garden of delight, and Mohana, the garden of delusion. The garden was "resounding with a host of nymphs" because the nymphs were singing and playing musical instruments. Spk paraphrases the question by way of its intent: "Teach me insight meditation, which is the basis for arahantship." Interesting - I would have thought that Samatha and the Jhanas might have figured here, but it is Vipassanaa. "right view running out in front" is vipassanaa-sammaaditthi. "For just as the king's servants first clear the path before the king comes out, so the right view of insight clears the way by contemplating the aggregates, etc., as impermanent etc., and then the right view of the path (magga-sammaa-ditthi) arises fully understanding the round of existence." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > Note 100: Spk relates the background story: In his previous life this > deva had been an overzealous bhikkhu who had neglected sleep and food > in order to attend to his meditation subject. Because of his > excessive zeal, he died of a wind ailment and was immediately reborn > in the Tavatimsa heaven amidst a retinue of celestial nymphs > (acchara). The change occurred so quickly that he did not even know > he had expired and thought he was still a bhikkhu. The nymphs tried > to seduce him, but he rejected their amorous advances and tried to > resume his meditation practice. Finally, when the nymphs brought him > a mirror, he realized he had been reborn as a deva, but he thought "I > did not practice the work of an ascetic in order to take rebirth > here, but to attain the supreme goal of arahantship." Then, with his > virtue still intact, surrounded by the retinue of nymphs, he went to > the Buddha and spoke the first verse…" > > There is a very interesting Flash movie about devas at this link: > http://www.metta.lk/special-effects/index.htm > 28405 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: An Interesting But Fanciful Scenario Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58,groups of rupa Dear Howard, op 28-12-2003 07:10 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:> >> I had afterthoughts about my jokes concerning citta and the groups of rupa, >> and I am really sorry, this was not appropriate. > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm not clear on what you are referring to, Nina, but I am not aware > of *anything* you said that was inappropriate or that calls for the slightest > apology. N: That is very kind of you. Lodewijk is very reserved about jokes, he said, you do not know what mood the other person is in. He prefers no jokes at all on internet. We cannot live like the monks or the arahats, that would be unnatural, but Vinaya helps us to see danger in the slightest faults. It means something that the monk is not supposed to joke. Working on bhavanga but also on Larry's thread, and intro to latent tendencies with Lodewijk's help. He is very keen on it, and was remarking how we do many things that seem so noble, but behind it all is selfishness. We just cannot skip akusala as object of awareness. But this does not mean that we have to say, now, I have to be aware of akusala, that is selecting, wrong again. H: I look forward to reading what you have to say further both with regard to rupas and bhavanga cittas, whenever you are ready. N: Yes, I like to, it is a good idea. Nina. 28406 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:48am Subject: FW: [Pali] Re: tipitaka.org Dear Sarah and all, this may interest the Pali students. frwd- Dear Yong Peng, op 28-12-2003 12:19 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@y...: > the Tipitaka website is online now: > http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html >N: hurray, thanks for telling us, Nina. 28407 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] tanha and intention Dear Jon, op 28-12-2003 09:14 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > And secondly, it's > not a matter of 'paying attention', since that implies something 'to > be done', and also a conscious selection of the (perceived) presently > occurring object, whereas in fact that object has fallen away long > before it can be attended to. N: excellently put. What about a hardly perceptible selection, say, as I just was talking about to Howard, of awareness of akusala citta. That is a good point for Bgk!!! We know that it is very necessary to be aware of akusala, but as you say, it has fallen away. We need fast panna! It is no good to skip akusala and it is no good to select akusala as object of awareness. What subtle tricks tanha plays us all the time. I like to hear more about this, even before Bgk, and others may too. If Kom and Mike have time it would be very beneficial, they have also good ideas. I think that A. Sujin would say: self behind it all. She lets you feel this and then I can't help laughing. Jokes again! Nina. 28408 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:52am Subject: Flying the banner (Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders) Hello Sarah, and all, Thanks for the quotes. They do seem to be looking at conceit from the 'bragging about achievements" perspective. Maybe I misunderstood previously when I thought even talking about personal events and tragedies was a form of this. I'm not sure how talking about ones troubles could be called 'self-advertisement' - unless, maybe, because one is really saying "look at poor me!- I'm the important one, my suffering is important because ... well, because its ME that it's happening too!" Should we never mention problems then? How then does a person obtain comfort and support? Not supposed to need it? Just hope someone notices or is telepathic? I'd be out of a job! metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine & All, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > >I wonder where the 'flying > > the flag' quote came from? > .... > Here's one source: > > Atthasalini (bk 11, Part 11, ch2, 372) on conceit: > > " "Conceit", "overweening" and "conceitedness" signify mode and state. > "Loftiness" is in the sense of rising upwards or of springing over others. > "haughtiness", i.e. in whom conceit arises, him it lifts up, keeps > upraised. "Flaunting a flag" is in the sense of swelling above others. > "Assumption' means uplifting; conceit favours the mind all round. Of > many flags the flag which raises above others is called a banner. So > conceit arising repeatedly in the sense of excelling with reference to > subsequent conceits is like a banner. That mind which desires the banner > is said to be desirous of the banner (i.e. , self-advertisement). Such a > state is desire for self-advertisement......" > ..... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > 28409 From: Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:33pm Subject: Vism.XIV 59 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 12. The life faculty has the characteristic of maintaining conascent kinds of matter. Its function is to make them occur. It is manifested in the establishing of their presence. Its proximate cause is primary elements that are to be sustained. And although it has the capacity consisting in the characteristic of maintaining, etc., yet it only maintains conascent kinds of matter at the moment of presence, as water does lotuses and so on. Though states (dhamma) arise due to their own conditions, it maintains them, as a wet-nurse does a prince. And it occurs itself only through its connexion with the states that occur, like a pilot; it does not cause occurrence after dissolution, because of its own absence and that of what has to be made to occur. It does not prolong presence at the moment of dissolution because it is itself dissolving, like the flame of a lamp when the wick and the oil are getting used up. But it must not be regarded as destitute of power to maintain, make occur, and make present, because it does accomplish each of these functions at the moment stated (cf. Dhs. 635).25 --------------------------- note 25. 'Since the life faculty is itself entirely kamma-born it is established, by taking them as conascent, that the things to be protected by it are kamma-born too; this is why there is no inclusion of the term "kamma-born". It maintains as if it were its own that kamma-born matter by being the cause of its occurrence even though only lasting for a moment; that is why it has the characteristic of maintaining conascent kinds of matter. For kamma alone is not competent to be the cause of kamma-born things' presence, as nutriment, etc., are of the nutriment-born. ' "Because it does accomplish each of those functions": it does so because it is a condition for distinguishing what is living. For it is the life faculty that distinguishes matter that is bound up with faculties from dead matter, and kamma-born matter and what is bound up with that from matter that is temperature originated, and so on. 'And the life faculty must be regarded as the reason not only for presence during a moment but also for non-interruption of connexion; otherwise death as the termination of a life span would be illogical' (Pm. 448). 28410 From: Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 59 Hi Nina, Does the life faculty maintain any consciounesses? What about the formless realm? Is the life faculty the same for plants? Larry ---------------------- "The life faculty has the characteristic of maintaining conascent kinds of matter." 28411 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 4:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies At least > now IMO known that whenever a sense object is akusala in any sense > door - this means it already brings the aksuala accumulation effect > + latency. ______________ Dear Ken, The sense door object is is rupa. It may be inherently unpleasant but as it is not nama we do not call it akusala. The experience of this object is also not akusala as its jati is vipaka. A good introducation to this is in Abhidhamma in daily life. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Robert K > > > > But the vipaka moments are always conditioned by either kusala or > > akusala kamma .It is irrelevant whether there is any knowing of > > this during the javana phase or not. It is just as it is. > > k: Hmm to me it can be quite significant. As said in Kotthita > Sutta, about desire and passion arise in dependence of both forms and > eye. Since eye consciouness is vipaka (with indifference feeling) so > it is out of the equation, this means IMO javana process of the eye > sense door process is the cause of such desire and passion. > > > k: Furthermore, knowing technicality is impt, it builds faith (not > blind ones) and develop understanding the Abhidhamma vis-a-vis Sutta. > Moreover, it helps in discussion esp with a few good men here. ;-) > > > > > kind regards > Ken O 28412 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:20pm Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi All, (Better late than never -- since this is one of my favourite suttas.) James wrote: ------------ > The difficulty of determining The Middle Way is very strong in today's world. The world is void of strict austerities so the whole standard has shifted more to the pleasure side in most people's minds. For example, smoking just one pack of cigarettes instead of ten isn't following the Middle Way! ;-)) What we might consider the Middle Way the Buddha probably wouldn't. What do you think? > ------------- I think it should be stressed that the Middle Way is not a hybrid of conventional views: In the conventional view of the eternalists, we should strive for rebirth in heaven (what better place to live for ever). In the conventional view of the annihilationists, we shouldn't strive at all; we should just eat, drink and be merry (for tomorrow we die and our suffering will be ended). I think the only reason for calling right view the Middle Way is that it is neither of the these two extremes. We mustn't think right view is a midpoint between two wrong views. It is not a happy medium between strict asceticism and overindulgence. In its mundane form, right view is a momentary direct understanding of conditioned reality; in its supramundane form, it is momentary direct understanding of unconditioned reality (Nibbana). It is only in this way that the flood is crossed -- without any concept of self-denial and without any concept of self-indulgence AND without any concept of self-moderation. Kind regards, Ken H 28413 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Robert RobK, your explanation is not congruent with the one I quoted below by Nina, “The sense door object is is rupa. It may be inherently unpleasant but as it is not nama we do not call it akusala. The experience of this object is also not akusala as its jati is vipaka. A good introducation to this is in Abhidhamma in daily life.” <> An object which is inherent unpleasant is only experience in the javana processs. Bc what is inherent pleasant and unpleasant is only due to our conditioning of kamma, our conditioned reaction to the object. We cannot said an object has pleasant or unpleasant bc pleasant and unpleasant are vedana and not the object itself. Just like an image of a spider may scare some pple off for others it is a joy to study them. Hence the spider is neither pleasant or unpleasant till we have "partake" the "spider". Furthermore, inherent is only applicable to the characteristic of a paramatha dhamma. An earth rupa has the inherent characteristic "solidity" but it does not has the pleasant or unpleasant characterisitics. Hence we cannot say a rupa is inherently unpleasant which is a vedana characterisitc. Sorry to bother you again, I like to clarify on the sense door process again. What is pasada rupa. I remember I read somewhere it is the pasada rupa that impinge on the averting door citta. Is this passda rupa that is the rupa that a sense door process holds till the seventeen moments. kind regards Ken O 28414 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Dear Ken, here is a quick quote from the Dispeller of Delusion. I hope this clarifies. From the Dispeller of Delusion(Sammohavinodani) p9-11: Rupa sadda (visible data, sounds)..there are none which are disagreeable that are born of profitable kamma; all are agreeable only....But a disputatious speaker (vitandavadin) said 'There is no intrinsic agreeable and disagreeable'It is according to the likings of these or those 9individuals)[and the vitandavadin goes on to give an example of how to people in some distant place worms are considered a delicacy whereas most people find them repulsive , he also says the same about peacocks flesh]. He should be asked 'But how? Do you say that there is no distinguishing an object as intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable?' 'Yes: I say there is not?..[it continues a little more and then refutes the vitantavadin (sectarian of another school)] ''It is through perversion of perception that the same object is agreeable for one and disagreeable for another. But there is the distinguishing of an object as intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable'.......the elder Tipitaka Cula-Abhaya said: 'The agreeable and disagreeable are distinguishable according to vipaka (kamma result) only, not according to javana (impulsion that follows the vipaka). But it is impulsion through perversion of perception (sannavipallasa)only that lusts for the agreeable and hates the same agreeable; that lusts for the disagreeable and hates the same agreeable. Only by way of vipaka however is it rightly distinguishable. For resultant consciousness (vipaka citta) cannot be mistaken. If the object is agreeable it is profitable result that has arisen; if disagreeable, it is unprofitable result that has arisen. Although those of wrong view on seeing such exalted objects as the enlightened one(buddha) shut their eyes and feel domanassa (unpleasant feeling)[arising during the javana stage]and on hearing the Dhamma they stop their ears nevertheless their eye-consciouness, ear-consciousness , etc are only profitable kamma result (vipaka). Although dung eating pigs on smelling the odour of dung become joyful, thinking;'we shall get something to eat' nevertheless their eye-consciousness (a vipaka) in the seeing of the dung, nose consciousness (a vipaka) in smelling its odour and tongue consciousness (a vipaka)in tasting its flavour is only unprofitable result."" ENDQUOTE In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Robert > > RobK, your explanation is not congruent with the one I quoted below > by Nina, > > "The sense door object is is rupa. It may be inherently unpleasant > but as it is not nama we do not call it akusala. The experience of > this object is also not akusala as its jati is vipaka. A good > introducation to this is in Abhidhamma in daily life." > > < http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-03.htm states > "Every time we experience an unpleasant object through one of the > five senses, there is akusala vipaka. Every time we experience a > pleasant object through one of the five senses there is kusala > vipaka." >> > > An object which is inherent unpleasant is only experience in the > javana processs. Bc what is inherent pleasant and unpleasant is only > due to our conditioning of kamma, our conditioned reaction to the > object. We cannot said an object has pleasant or unpleasant bc > pleasant and unpleasant are vedana and not the object itself. Just > like an image of a spider may scare some pple off for others it is a > joy to study them. Hence the spider is neither pleasant or > unpleasant till we have "partake" the "spider". Furthermore, > inherent is only applicable to the characteristic of a paramatha > dhamma. An earth rupa has the inherent characteristic "solidity" > but it does not has the pleasant or unpleasant characterisitics. > Hence we cannot say a rupa is inherently unpleasant which is a vedana > characterisitc. > > > Sorry to bother you again, I like to clarify on the sense door > process again. What is pasada rupa. I remember I read somewhere it > is the pasada rupa that impinge on the averting door citta. Is this > passda rupa that is the rupa that a sense door process holds till the > seventeen moments. > > > kind regards > Ken O 28415 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi James > James: Okay, now we are going to get into some high philosophy. > This approach to Buddhism that you and Sarah are advocating is more a synthesis of Buddhism and Gnosticism rather than pure Buddhism. > Gnosticism is the belief that by cultivating an inherent wisdom > that is present is only certain people, `Gnostics', these people may > become enlightened and are never again reborn. k: James, in my opinion there is no such thing as an inherent wisdom. An inherent wisdom will mean an original mind concept or luminous mind (we are not debating this ;-) ) Definitely Arahant do not reborn again or not what is the point of being enlighted and suffer again. James: However, the difference is that the Buddha taught that the Path to Enlightenment is possible for anyone who follows the Eightfold Path, not just certain `wise' people. The Buddha accepted anyone into his Sangha because he believed this and taught this, not just to be nice. k: Fully agreed. James: From my understanding, you believe that one must have this `spark of wisdom' (panna) already and that by wise reflection and good company this wisdom will intuitively grow without any direct effort. I'm sorry, but this is Gnosticism, not Buddhism. Not only that, but Gnostics believe that this inherent spark of wisdom must grow by individual, intuitive means, and learning the Abhidhamma would definitely not count because it is an outside source. The Buddha taught the Fourth Noble Truth which is that the round of samsara can be stopped for ANYONE who follows the Eightfold Path. It is a path of practice and not a description of any `mind moments' of those with enough panna (wisdom). k: As I said earlier, there is no such thing as innate spark of wisdom. Wise reflection and good company are advocate by Buddha not me. And definitely you are right to say anyone could follow the path. > James: You have misinterpreted this sutta, it has nothing to do > with concentration on a kasina (concentration subject); it has to do > with following the Middle Way. Not only that, but your own Abhidhamma philosophy states that the flow of cittas cannot be `dammed' in anyway, from my understanding. k: Damming is just a description for my sinking analogy. But James your stand is that meditation on one object is the path of Enlightment not me. You are the one advocating, one must practise this and I am the one who say this is not the middle way. K: Let me requote what Christine quote in an earlier post <<1 46 (6) Nymphs "Resounding with a host of nymphs, Haunted by a host of demons! This grove is to be called 'Deluding' How does one escape from it?" [n.100] "'The straight way' that path is called, and 'fearless' is its destination. The chariot is called 'unrattling', Fitted with wheels of wholesome states. "The sense of shame is its leaning board, Mindfulness its upholstery; I call the Dhamma the charioteer, With right view running out in front. [n.101] "One who has such a vehicle - Whether a woman or a man - Has, by means of this vehicle, Drawn close to Nibbaana." [n.102]>> k: Does it say one must do meditation. Does it say one must purposed do this or purposed do that. Or was it on wholesome states, on mindfulness, morality. kind regards Ken O 28416 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi RobK I have read this before and at that time it was not impt. Ahh now it is different, things fall into place. I think the word used is pivotal in my understanding bc agreeable and disagreeable has make a lot of sense rather than pleasant and unpleasant bc pleasant and unpleasant are vedana. I think the adding of confusion is aggravated by the fact that vipaka is indifference. Indeed, Dispeller of Delusion is correct, the perversion of preception, very nicely, said :). Yes again very well said, it is intrinsic agreeable or not are due to kamma, bc it is the fruit and not the cause :) I have to give three bows to the translator Bhikkhu Namoli (it is a pity that he passed away so soon at the age of 55, a great loss to the Abhidhamma translation) Many thanks and kind regards Ken O 28417 From: Jeffrey S. Brooks Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hello Sarah, what a pleasure to hear back from you. Please see my comments below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > Thanks for getting back on our discussion;-) > > --- "Jeffrey S. Brooks" wrote:> > > %%%%%%%% Jeff: > > moment-to-moment mindfulness, as I use the term is attentive awareness > > of every activity, no mstter how trivial, as in the Satipatthana Sutta > > MN 10 > .... > S:I would like to suggest that it is not awareness `of every activity', > but awareness `during/whilst undertaking every (or any) activity'. The > objects of awareness are those included in the 4 satipatthanas, i.e the 5 > khandhas or all namas and rupas, but not concepts or activities. > ..... > J:> 3. Awareness with Clear Comprehension > > %%%%% Jeff: I prefer to use attentive awareness than clear comprehension, because comprehension implies cognition, and it is clear to me, the Buddha was looking for a bare awareness without the cognitive process involved. Comprehension would imply cognition. Secondly, if you read the Satipatthana Sutta, MN 10 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn010b.html then you will see: III. The Contemplation of consciousness and mental states (Cognition) and IV. The Contemplation of Mental Objects For me, this practice has definitely been a moment-to-moment awareness practice of all 7 senses, which includes all actions, words and thoughts. Through this practice I have been fortunate to arrive at a pleasant abiding in the here and now. I am quite sure if I was not mindful in every moment I would not have a pleasant abiding in every moment. %%%%%%%%% > .... > S: At these times, i.e in daily life, whatever the activity, sati > sampajanna (sati and panna) can and should arise of the various dhammas > included in the 4 satipatthanas. I recommend a look under `Satipatthana > Sutta and Commentaries in UP which you're most welcome to comment on: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > As I know you're busy with all your correspondence, I'll quote one at the > end of this post which is relevant. > .... > > %%%%%%%% Jeff: > > Moment-to-moment mindfulness to me means everything, even if aurus and > > chakras enter ones awareness domain. > > %%%%%%%% > .... > S: That's OK, Jeff. But this isn't satipatthana as described by the > Buddha. Of course sati itself arises with all wholesome states of > consciousness, but sati of satipatthana can only be aware of a paramattha > dhamma (ultimate reality). %%%%%%% Jeff:Sorry to disagree again. I believe it is awareness of everything that arrives in the sense domain. Also, I am not just relying on the Sati suttas. I have read the whole if the Digha Nikaya and much of the Majjhima Nikaya, and if you read the Lohicca Sutta DN 12 you will clearly see that the historic Buddha trained his students to recall past lifetimes through clairvoyance, and to develop Clairaudience and to also develop a mind-made body, which from the description is clearly astral traveling. Therefore, even though auras and chakras are not clearly mentioned it is reasonable that these realities would not have been ignored. %%%%%%% > .... > J:> Interesting questions Sarah however you assume there is an unwholesome > > bliss or jhana, or absorption. > .... > S: I think my comments were merely suggesting that pana (wisdom) has to be > very refined and developed to really understand and know the distinction > between wholesome states and those which can easily masquerade for the > same and fool us all the time. Like now, there may be neutral feeling or > pleasant feeling. Is it wholesome or unwholesome? Panna has to be so sharp > to really know the states following the experiences through the sense > doors and this can only be with detachment. The test is always at this > moment. Without highly developed panna which knows the distinction between > these states, samatha cannot develop, let alone reach high levels of > absorption and so on. %%%%%%%% Jeff: Well, I think Sarah, you are missing one point wisdom depends on being purified by jhana, not the other way around. %%%%%%%% > .... > J:>There isn't one, because otherwise it > > would not be jhana. > .... > S: There isn't unwholesome jhana, but there are unwholesome jhana factors > or mental states which are included under jhana condition. Highly > developed concentration, bliss and so on are not necessarily wholesome at %%%%%%% Jeff: Again I beg to dissagree. %%%%%%% > all. > .... > J:>If you recall the 4 Noble Truths, suffering > > (dukkha) caused be grasping and aversion. The pleasant abiding in the > > here and now the Buddha spoke of was jhana. > .... > S: We need to be careful of the context. > > Perhaps we can say that `sukha vihaara' refers to pleasant abiding for > those accomplished in jhanas (jhana-samapatti). Additionally, for ariyan > disciples, with mastery in jhanas, it refers to fruition-attainment (phala > samapatti) according to the level of enlightenment attained. > > "All ariyans attain their own respective fruition" Ud Comy, Enlightenmnet > Ch. > > I wrote more details in this post: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24069 > .... > J:>Therefore one does not > > get jhana with grasping and aversion. One gets suffering. > ... > S: I'd go further and suggest `one' doesn't `get' it at all. Even the > experiencing of jhana states is anatta. > > I hope we continue our discussion, even with long intervals is fine. I > appreciate your reflections and comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > *Jon > > The objects of awareness under the Satipatthana Sutta are dhammas > (realities), not concepts. The consciousness/mind section refers to the > dhamma that is the moment of consciousness. The mind objects/mental > objects section refers to the dhammas (realities) that can be the object > of a moment of consciousness, and this in turn means any and all realities > (including those covered by the other 3 sections of the sutta). > > To give an example. At a moment of seeing there is contact between the > consciousness that sees and visible object. That visible object is a > reality and also, at that precise moment, a mind object (it is the object > of seeing consciousness). > > So the visible object at that moment falls under both the rupas' section > and the mind object' section of the 4 satipatthanas. This helps remind > us that the 4 sections in the sutta are merely ways of classifying > realities and are not in themselves absolutes. > > Only dhammas (realties) can be the object of satipatthana, because only > something that has its own characteristic that is capable of being > experienced is considered to be a dhamma'; anything that does not, is > not. > > In the Satipatthana Sutta itself, the 'eligible' mind-objects are > described in different ways. One of these ways is as the 5 khandhas > (Aggregates), and these 5 khandhas encompass all dhammas (other than > Nibbana). I have pasted below the passage from The Way of Mindfulness' > > Jon > > Section on Mental Objects > 2. The Aggregates > > "And, further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in > the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging. > > "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the > mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging? > > "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu thinks: > 'Thus is material form [rupa]; thus is the arising of material form; and > thus is the disappearance of material form. > Thus is feeling [vedana]; thus is the arising of feeling; and thus is the > disappearance of feeling. > Thus is perception [sanna]; thus is the arising of perception; and thus is > the disappearance of perception. > Thus are the formations [sankhara]; thus is the arising of the formations; > and thus is the disappearance of the formations. > Thus is consciousness [vinnana]; thus is the arising of consciousness; and > thus is the disappearance of consciousness.' > > Thus he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, internally > ... and clings to naught in the world. > > "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in > the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging." [ends] > ********** > END QUOTE %%%%%% Jeff: Unfortunately I do not accept the translation of vinnana as Consciousness, especially in this case. If we do as the above quote suggests, then we come to the absurd conclusion that we ultimately seek an conscious state in nibbana. This of course is absurd, because we have been practicing awareness training exercises in Sati. Therefore why would we assume we go to all of the trouble of developing awareness if ultimately we are going to end up unconscious? If that were true we might as well go to sleep or commit suicide, and get it over with quickly. It was a pleasure discussing the dhamma with you. Best regards, Jeff Brooks Ecstatic Buddhism A newsletter for ecstatic Buddhists website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ecstatic_Buddhism/ Subscribe: Ecstatic_Buddhism-subscribe@yahoogroups.com 28418 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:19am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi Ken!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken:" I think it should be stressed that the Middle Way is not > a hybrid of conventional views: " -------------------------------------------------------------------- Right on, Ken! If there´s any original remark on Buddha´s dispensation, it´s the fact t= hat it´s not a mere picked up bunch of selected Hindu texts (as a garland of= flowers or whatever): it´s a new standpoint on philosophical, existential o= r even at religious realms! I usually get the feeling that Theravada Buddhism it´s the last word, th= e terminal point of all Hinduistic concepts on Philosophy and religion, goin= g beyond these in all aspects to new avenues of reasoning and insight! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken:" In the conventional view of the eternalists, we should > strive for rebirth in heaven (what better place to live > for ever). In the conventional view of the > annihilationists, we shouldn't strive at all; we should > just eat, drink and be merry (for tomorrow we die and our > suffering will be ended). > > I think the only reason for calling right view the Middle > Way is that it is neither of the these two extremes. We > mustn't think right view is a midpoint between two wrong > views. It is not a happy medium between strict asceticism > and overindulgence. > > In its mundane form, right view is a momentary direct > understanding of conditioned reality; in its supramundane > form, it is momentary direct understanding of > unconditioned reality (Nibbana)." --------------------------------------------------------------------- In all hinduistic religious culture everyone speaks on Moksha, Kaivalya .= .. the concept of "liberation" is deeply rooted on all these viewpoints:but = Buddha was the first (beside Mahavir and other unusual hindu masters) to poi= nt out the real labour of mind and their real aims, mainly the best one - re= aching the other shore, the Nibbana. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ken:" It is only in this way that the flood is crossed -- without > any concept of self-denial and without any concept of > self-indulgence AND without any concept of self-moderation." ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Self"-Moderation ??? It´s not ours, mister! Mettaya, Ícaro 28419 From: Jeffrey S. Brooks Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:55am Subject: 4 Sati Suttas? Hello Sarah, in my last post forgot to ask you about the following comment you made. I am only familiar with the three following Sati Suttas? Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN. 22) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html Is there another one that I should be aware of? Best regards, Jeff Brooks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > Thanks for getting back on our discussion;-) >> .... > S:I would like to suggest that it is not awareness `of every activity', > but awareness `during/whilst undertaking every (or any) activity'. The > objects of awareness are those included in the 4 satipatthanas, i.e the 5 > khandhas or all namas and rupas, but not concepts or activities. 28420 From: Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:40am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/28/03 8:21:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > I think it should be stressed that the Middle Way is not > a hybrid of conventional views: > > In the conventional view of the eternalists, we should > strive for rebirth in heaven (what better place to live > for ever). In the conventional view of the > annihilationists, we shouldn't strive at all; we should > just eat, drink and be merry (for tomorrow we die and our > suffering will be ended). > > I think the only reason for calling right view the Middle > Way is that it is neither of the these two extremes. We > mustn't think right view is a midpoint between two wrong > views. It is not a happy medium between strict asceticism > and overindulgence. > > In its mundane form, right view is a momentary direct > understanding of conditioned reality; in its supramundane > form, it is momentary direct understanding of > unconditioned reality (Nibbana). > > It is only in this way that the flood is crossed -- without > any concept of self-denial and without any concept of > self-indulgence AND without any concept of self-moderation. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================== There are several senses to 'the middle way'. One of these is the Noble Eightfold Path, itself, by which I mean the Buddha's path of practice, a conventional process, volitionally tread (as opposed to a momentary arising of factors). This is the primary meaning of the term. It was (and is) the alternative to doing whatever one wants (simply indulging oneself), on the one hand, and strict asceticism, on the other. The Eightfold Path of Practice is an alternative to these two extremes, and is not a midpoint between them. It involves neither doing nothing (and thus sinking) nor engaging in extreme and pointless deprivation (and thus being swept away). It is a doing, but a very subtle and precise doing. Another sense is that of the philosophical middle replacing the extremes of eternalism-substantialism and annihilationism-nihilism by the emptiness-conditionality of dependent origination. This philosophical middle way is also not a compromise and not an amalgam, but something else entirely, and compared to the two extremes, it is extremely subtle. The "emptiness view" of dependent origination is, indeed, a middle-way view; it is Right View, and it is not a combination of or compromise between wrong views. But the not halting and not straining of this Crossing the Flood sutta does not pertain to view only; it pertains to the entire middle-way path of practice of the Buddha, the direct path to liberation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28421 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:10am Subject: life-faculty, swimmingpool meditation Dear Larry, Dan, Howard and all, Larry, I was so glad to receive your two-liners early morning before breakfast. I had missed them. But do not go too fast, my transl is not ready yet. A line by line business, I have to make the word list for the Pali lovers. Yes, it is my morning meditation. I am thinking of Dan's sympathetic mail about Abhidhamma meditation, , going straight to the heart. It is true, but we have to find this out for ourselves. You guys really inspire me to consider difficult points and to try to make them relevant for our life, like Howard's questions. I never knew this before I joined Internet and dsg. When we read definitions of life faculty, or sex faculty, it seems that they are abstract, only concepts, and often ungraspable. They are rupas which are , not easy to penetrate, according to the Visuddhimagga. Let us consider the cause, kamma. Kamma aeons ago may have produced our rebirth-consciousness, it is really a mystery when we think of it. It is past kamma (from a former life) that keeps on producing life faculty, also at this moment. This faculty makes all the difference between dead matter and a living body. I went to the swimming pool and what a good place for meditation. We cling so much to being alive, to health, to being female or male. But these are only rupas produced by kamma. Kamma is past, but life-faculty has a special function to maintain the other rupas in the groups produced by kamma. These groups are all over the body. There are showers annex to the pool, and while we were standing there under the shower, a fellow swimmer talked to us about old friends in wheelchairs he had visited in homes for the aged. It could not be any better, reminders of old age. And I was considering life faculty. Our clinging to body, to health. And in the Abhidhamma, Book of Analysis Ch 7 there is that impressive list of objects of conceit (I mentioned before) and among these: Does the life faculty maintain any consciounesses? What about the > formless realm? Is the life faculty the same for plants? 28422 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:10am Subject: anapanasati 9 a anapanasati 9 a (Jon to Rob Ep, Sept 16): the Anapanasati Sutta is a teaching on attaining to the superior kind of insight known as 'insight both ways', based on jhana, in this case jhana with breath as object. As such, is directed at those who have already attained jhana with breath as object or who are potentially capable of doing so. For such individuals, breath is already a naturally arising object in their daily life, a daily life that is far different from yours and mine. So, no, I do not read this sutta as *advocating* anything about taking a particular object for insight development... As I have indicated, the sutta was given for the benefit of those (monks) who are already highly adept at attending to the breath (actually, its nimitta) as an object of samatha, and for those persons the sutta is indeed about the discernment of an 'everyday object'. Jon: My view on the usefulness or appropriateness of formal meditation practice issue is simple: anything that's supported by the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries, either expressly or implicitly, as being appropriate for the development of the path is to be encouraged (but if it's not, then not). In determining what falls within this ambit, I don't believe one can rely on generally held ideas among Buddhist groups, or on the assurances of others. I think it's necessary to look at the texts for oneself. Nor do i think one can simply rely on results of just any 'practice' that seem to match things found in the texts; the 'practice' must be as indicated by the Buddha from the outset, otherwise the results cannot be the real thing -- they will give a 'false positive'. I've just been looking again through the Satipatthana Sutta, this time focussing on what I might call the 'operative words', that is, the key terms used by the Buddha in describing how each of the 4 foundations/arousings of mindfulness is carried out. I list these out below. I think they make interesting reading. [Body] Mindful, he breathes in thinking, 'I breathe in long,' he understands 'thinking thus, he trains himself understands: 'I am going'; is a person practising clear comprehension reflects... thinking thus thinks of his own body thus [Feeling] experiencing a pleasant feeling, understands... [Consciousness] understands the consciousness with lust [Mental objects] knows with understanding [5 hindrances] thinks: 'Thus is material form...' [5 khandhas] understands the eye and material forms [6 sense-bases] knows with understanding: 'I have the enlightenment factor [7 enlightenment factors] understands: 'This is suffering,' [4 noble truths] This doesn't seem to me like the language of formal meditation practice. Do you see anything here, or elsewhere in the sutta, that points to a formal meditation practice? Jon 28423 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 0:40pm Subject: Re: 4 Sati Suttas? Hello Jeff, Sarah and all, Enjoying your discussion. Perhaps when Sarah referred to the 4 Satipatthanas she was meaning the Four Foundations of Mindfulness themselves - Kayanupassana (constant observation of the body), Vedananupassana (constant observation of sensation), cittanupassana (constant observation of the mind), and Dhammanupassana (constant observation of the contents of the mind). Jeff - with your enthusiasm for all things Jhana, you may be interested in AN VIII.63 the Sankhitta Sutta 'In Brief (Good Will, Mindfulness, & Concentration)' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-063.html Thanissaro says: "This discourse is important in that it explicitly refers to the practice of the four frames of reference (the four foundations of mindfulness) as a form of concentration practice, mastered in terms of the levels of jhana." Just a brief look, so this is not comprehensive, but in the Satipatthaanasamyutta there are 104 suttas (some repetition) in the "Connected Discourses on the Establishments of Mindfulness" (Wisdom. Bhikkhu Bodhi). A small number of Thanissaro's translations of these suttas are on-line at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html#Maha MN 119 Kayagata-sati sutta 'Mindfulness immersed in the Body' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey S. Brooks" wrote: > Hello Sarah, in my last post forgot to ask you about the following > comment you made. I am only familiar with the three following Sati > Suttas? > > Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html > Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN. 22) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html > Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html > > > Is there another one that I should be aware of? > > Best regards, > > Jeff Brooks > 28424 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:50pm Subject: The present moment Hi everyone, (that includes me) There are two types of present moment. One is the PRESENT as experienced in terms of the PAST. This present is not a given, but is constructed entirely on intention. Intention is based in the past to maintain it in the future. It is always based on self-view. The purpose of this type of present moment is indeed to maintain in the future the self-view that lies at it's origin. This type of present moment is always accompanied by conflict and anxiety, because it requires much effort to maintain the illusion of the reality of what is not real. When the conflict and anxiety become greater than the craving for the next moment with self view, the opportunity has arisen to not intend a future moment based on the past, and thus obtain a glimpse of the Present in terms of itself. This moment is given, unchangeable, timeless. It has no content. It is free of anxiety and conflict. This moment is not intended, but is there when there is no intention. The Buddha praised a lifestyle in which it was possible to become free of intention. The only consequence that follows from ignoring his recommendations is the continuation of the past-future life that is craved for. Anxiety and conflict and lip service to the Triple Gem can go on forever. May all be free from anxiety and conflict Herman 28425 From: Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty, swimmingpool meditation Hi Nina, I agree it would be difficult to take life as an object of satipatthana. I considered my hair, what little there is. At the tip it is dead but at the root it is alive. But this doesn't really touch life itself. What is the difference between the continuity of a non-living rupa such as what we would call a stick and a living rupa such as what we would call an insect? There is continuity in both cases but the stick doesn't eat. Is there a connection between life and nutriment? Larry 28426 From: Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] The present moment Hi, Herman - In a message dated 12/29/03 6:59:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi everyone, (that includes me) > > There are two types of present moment. > > One is the PRESENT as experienced in terms of the PAST. This present > is not a given, but is constructed entirely on intention. Intention > is based in the past to maintain it in the future. It is always > based on self-view. The purpose of this type of present moment is > indeed to maintain in the future the self-view that lies at it's > origin. This type of present moment is always accompanied by > conflict and anxiety, because it requires much effort to maintain > the illusion of the reality of what is not real. When the conflict > and anxiety become greater than the craving for the next moment with > self view, the opportunity has arisen to not intend a future moment > based on the past, and thus obtain a glimpse of the > > Present in terms of itself. This moment is given, unchangeable, > timeless. It has no content. It is free of anxiety and conflict. > > This moment is not intended, but is there when there is no intention. > > The Buddha praised a lifestyle in which it was possible to become > free of intention. The only consequence that follows from ignoring > his recommendations is the continuation of the past-future life that > is craved for. Anxiety and conflict and lip service to the Triple > Gem can go on forever. > > May all be free from anxiety and conflict > > > Herman > > ============================ It *sounds* to me that you may be saying something very important and quite deep here. Unfortunately for me, it is passing me by without my getting it. Could you explain a but more? In particular, how exactly are you using the word 'intention'. It *seems* to me that your meaning is different than the usual, everyday meaning or at least is different from how I understand the word. (The word, of course, isn't important, but the meaning is.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28427 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:42pm Subject: Re: How To get Through The Samsara ( 11 ) Dear Htoo, ------------- Htoo: > Do you really think that this is just conceptual imitation of Satipatthana? There are many posts coming regarding the practice. > ------------- I will read them with interest. Perhaps my questions should wait until then. Since learning a little Abhidhamma, I am wary of any 'Buddhist practice' that seems to require the notion of a self who can practise. Instead, I think it is purely a matter of understanding paramattha dhammas. ------------- Htoo: > Did I say ' mindfulness of concepts leads to mindfulness of Dhamma ' ? But mindfulness of all leads to mindfulness of dhamma including concepts. -------------- I'll be interested to see what that means. I hope it doesn't include concentrating on concepts; I've tried that and it didn't work :-) Kind regards, Ken H 28428 From: Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:13pm Subject: life etc. Hi Nina, I wonder if life faculty could even be an object of one of the 5 doors. Is there a category of realities which can only be inferred because of limitations of the sense doors? Can we say that not all realities are objects of satipatthana? Larry 28429 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:14pm Subject: life-faculty, explanation Dear Larry, some explanations of footnote 25. Do ask if anything is not clear. (answers to your other questions are coming) note 25. 'Since the life faculty is itself entirely kamma-born it is established, by taking them as conascent, that the things to be protected by it are kamma-born too; this is why there is no inclusion of the term "kamma-born". N: The rupas conascent with life faculty are in one group that originates from kamma. Thus there is no need to say that the other rupas that are conascent are also originating from kamma. 'It maintains as if it were its own that kamma-born matter by being the cause of its occurrence even though only lasting for a moment; that is why it has the characteristic of maintaining conascent kinds of matter. For kamma alone is not competent to be the cause of kamma-born things' presence, as nutriment, etc., are of the nutriment-born.' N: Kamma is past kamma and is since long fallen away. But life-faculty maintains the other rupas in the group originated from kamma. U Narada: , thus, it is not the same as the way the factors of nutrition, heat and citta produce the other rupas in their respective groups. These rupas produced by them are compared to a child with the mother alive, ' "Because it does accomplish each of those functions": it does so because it is a condition for distinguishing what is living. For it is the life faculty that distinguishes matter that is bound up with faculties from dead matter, and kamma-born matter and what is bound up with that from matter that is temperature originated, and so on.' N: Kamma-born matter is not only different from dead matter but also from materiality produced by the three other factors of heat, nutrition, citta. 'And the life faculty must be regarded as the reason not only for presence during a moment but also for non-interruption of connexion; otherwise death as the termination of a life span would be illogical' N: The groups of rupa with life-faculty fall away but they are replaced throughout life until death occurs. Pm. 448). 28430 From: Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty, explanation Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/30/03 12:16:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > N: Kamma is past kamma and is since long fallen away. But life-faculty > maintains the other rupas in the group originated from kamma. U Narada: does not relate by the force of production>, thus, it is not the same as the > way the factors of nutrition, heat and citta produce the other rupas in > their respective groups. These rupas produced by them are compared to a > child with the mother alive, maintained by physical life-faculty, is compared to the motherless child > maintained by a wet-nurse.> > ============================ I understand this to be saying that the kammic cause is long gone, and so the life force serves in its stead to maintain the kamma-produced rupas. The following questions occur to me then: 1) What maintains the life force? 2) The factors of nutrition, heat, and citta that produce other rupas may not be *long* gone, but they are gone. Gone is gone - length of time is irrelevant. What serves in the stead of the nutrition, heat, and citta to maintain these other rupas? 3) More generally, what more is needed for "maintenance" than condit ionality? With metta , Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28431 From: Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty, explanation Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 12/30/03 1:02:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... asks: > 2) The factors of nutrition, heat, and citta that produce other rupas > may not be *long* gone, but they are gone. Gone is gone - length of time is > irrelevant. What serves in the stead of the nutrition, heat, and citta to > maintain these other rupas? > =========================== I think I have just partly answered this question for myself. I remember that in Abhidhamma, multiple rupas can co-exist (though at most one of them as object of a citta), so the nutrition and heat might not be gone, but could co-exist with the rupas they produce, and thus no life-force maintenance is needed. I suppose that when a prior citta is the cause, then that is when the namic version of life force comes into play. Would this be the Abhidhammic response to my question (2)? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28432 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:04am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi Icaro, Congratulations on surviving boot camp -- and with a promotion (if I understood you correctly)! ------------- I: > If there´s any original remark on Buddha´s dispensation, it´s the fact that it´s not a mere picked up bunch of selected Hindu texts (as a garland of flowers or whatever): -------------- That's a lovely metaphor (in more ways than one). And it's a good thing that the Buddha´s dispensation is not a bunch of pretty bits picked from here and there -- because it wouldn't work. --------------- I: > In all hinduistic religious culture everyone speaks on Moksha, Kaivalya ... the concept of "liberation" is deeply rooted on all these viewpoints:but Buddha was the first (beside Mahavir and other unusual hindu masters) to point out the real labour of mind and their real aims, mainly the best one - reaching the other shore, the Nibbana. ---------------- I don't follow that but I'm sure you're right :-) -------------- I: > "Self"-Moderation ??? It´s not ours, mister! -------------- No, and it's not anyone else's either. Kind regards, Ken H 28433 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:16am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi Howard, Thanks for your reply. ---------- H: > There are several senses to 'the middle way'. One of these is the Noble Eightfold Path, itself, ----------- I think we can regard Middle Way and Eight-fold Path as synonyms (with allowances for the five-fold, mundane, version). I would say Right Understanding is a third synonym but you might not see it that way. ----------- H:> by which I mean the Buddha's path of practice, a conventional process, volitionally tread (as opposed to a momentary arising of factors). ---------- Never!!!! :-) It is always a momentary arising of factors (phenomena). There is never anything but momentary phenomena -- apart from nibbana, the object of the path. ---------- H: > This is the primary meaning of the term. It was (and is) the alternative to doing whatever one wants (simply indulging oneself), on the one hand, and strict asceticism, on the other. The Eightfold Path of Practice is an alternative to these two extremes, and is not a midpoint between them. It involves neither doing nothing (and thus sinking) nor engaging in extreme and pointless deprivation (and thus being swept away). ----------- We agree here, although, instead of "nor engaging in extreme and pointless deprivation," I would prefer you had said, "nor doing something." ----------- H: > It is a doing, but a very subtle and precise doing. ----------- Now we disagree. What you call 'a very subtle and precise doing,' is still one of the extremes. The Middle Way will never be found by lightening-up on our asceticism or by toning down our indulgence. I don't think it matters whether we live in a remote forest, eating fallen berries and wearing picked-up rags -- as have some ariyan disciples -- or, if we live in a castle -- as, also, some ariyan disciples have done. ------------- H: > Another sense is that of the philosophical middle replacing the extremes of eternalism-substantialism and annihilationism-nihilism by the emptiness-conditionality of dependent origination. This philosophical middle way is also not a compromise and not an amalgam, but something else entirely, and compared to the two extremes, it is extremely subtle. The "emptiness view" of dependent origination is, indeed, a middle-way view; it is Right View, and it is not a combination of or compromise between wrong views. --------------- Now you're talking! Here, there is no hint of a self who is 'doing' or 'not doing.' This explanation -- of nama and rupa -- is our intellectual understanding of the Middle Way. Even though I am glad we agree, I am suspicious of that word 'emptiness.' Can we replace it with 'anatta?' 'Emptiness' might be misconstrued as, 'no-sabhava.' :-) ------------- H: > But the not halting and not straining of this Crossing the Flood sutta does not pertain to view only; it pertains to the entire middle-way path of practice of the Buddha, the direct path to liberation. ------------- Don't worry: after right view, the rest follows automatically -- by conditions. Kind regards, Ken H 28434 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi Sarah, Sarah: I'll just respond to the Vism definition of equanimity as I think I've responded to the other points just now. I actually appreciated this post (all trimmed) very much, because it really helped me consider more about equanimity, pleasant feeling and so on. James: I'm glad that you appreciated the post all trimmed; here you are going to get another one. ;-) Sarah: Let me add a little more which may or may not help. Again, I'll ask someone else to pick up the baton if not. James: Yes, this detail did help me to understand a bit more about your position in regards to equanimity. But again, I think that the Vism does little more than confuse the issue. Sarah: Vism X1V, 153 "Specific neutrality …" "It has the characteristic of conveying consciousness and consciousness-concomitants evenly. Its function is to prevent deficiency and excess, or its function is to inhibit partiality. It is manifested as neutrality. …" Atthasalini (Expositor p176): "'Equanimity' (or balance of mind)* is neutrality …" **** Sarah: James-This will come up again in the Vism thread. Now we're on rupa khandha. With patience and encouragement to Larry and Nina, we'll get to sankhara khandha and all mental states -- which weren't discussed under vedana and sanna khandha -- will come up for analysis;-) James: If you don't mind, I want to discuss some of these items now. This belief you raise of `mini-meditations' during everyday experience, fueled by panna (wisdom), needs to be addressed (Anyway, Howard is doing quite well in raising the appropriate questions about the rupa theories). The above definitions continue to use the term `neutrality' in regards to equanimity and I don't think that is correct. To quote Santaka Sutta: ""There are, Ananda, three kinds of feelings: pleasant, painful and neutral. Through the origin of sense-impression there is origin of feelings; through the cessation of sense-impression there is cessation of feelings. It is the noble eightfold path that is the way leading to the cessation of feelings, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-015.html So you see Sarah, neutrality is a feeling and the goal of the Buddhist path is develop the cessation of feeling. This is defined as `equanimity' and is the absence of feeling (as Nina appropriately defines it in her book); it cannot be defined as a `neutral' feeling, as done by the Vism, because that is still a feeling. The Vism has it wrong I believe. Also, it cannot occur during pleasant feelings because those are also feelings. So, your theory that `Right Concentration' can occur in the midst of everyday mind states and occur during various feelings is incorrect. Allow me to quote another sutta: "Among whatever qualities there may be, fabricated or unfabricated, the quality of dispassion -- the subduing of intoxication, the elimination of thirst, the uprooting of attachment, the breaking of the round, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, the realization of Unbinding -- is considered supreme. Those who have confidence in the quality of dispassion have confidence in what is supreme; and for those with confidence in the supreme, supreme is the result." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/iti/iti3.html#90 And another: ""The knowledge of ending in the presence of ending has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is its prerequisite? Release... Release has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is its prerequisite? Dispassion... Disenchantment... Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present...Concentration... Pleasure... Serenity... Rapture... Joy... Conviction... Stress... Birth... Becoming... Clinging... Craving... Feeling... Contact... The six sense media... Name-&-form... Consciousness... Fabrications... Fabrications have their prerequisite, I tell you. They are not without a prerequisite. And what is their prerequisite? Ignorance." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-023.html Sarah: Good points. I'm sure if you ask KenO or RobM, for example, they'll gladly indicate texts or charts about the arising of equanimity, joy and so on. Vism 1V, 156f also gives details on various uses of equanimity (tatramajjhattataa) "Equanimity is of ten kinds; six factored equanimity, equanimity as a divine abiding, equanimity as an enlightenment factor, equanimity of energy, equanimity about formations, equanimity as a feeling, equanimity about insight, equanimity as a specific neutrality, equanimity of jhana, and equanimity of purification.' Plenty of detail and plenty of scope for misunderstanding on usage – quite possible here. James: You can say that again! For those who have an emotional need for excessive detail, they may appreciate this type of description. I don't have that need so I see it as overkill and confusing. Metta, Sarah ==== Metta, James 28435 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:24am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi Ken H, Sorry I didn't respond to your original post but I am finding it difficult to keep up with the number of posts to me. I still owe posts to Sukin, Dan, Nina, and some Star Kids! ;-). I don't respond to some posts because I know that it will grow beyond my capability, and usefulness, to reply. I want to reply to one small statment you make here, which summarizes your position I believe: > Howard:> by which I mean the Buddha's path of practice, a > conventional process, volitionally tread (as opposed to a > momentary arising of factors). > ---------- > Ken H: Never!!!! :-) It is always a momentary arising of > factors (phenomena). There is never anything but > momentary phenomena -- apart from nibbana, the object of > the path. As I have told others, and I will continue to say, the Eightfold path is not a description of momentarily arising mind states, it is a fabricated, planned, and executed path of practice. Allow me to quote the Buddha: ""Among whatever fabricated qualities there may be, the Noble Eightfold Path -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration -- is considered supreme. Those who have confidence in the Noble Eightfold Path have confidence in what is supreme; and for those with confidence in the supreme, supreme is the result…" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/iti/iti3.html#90 These qualities of the Eightfold Path are fabricated, they are created in the mundane world, they do not arise spontaneously because then they would be considered unfabricated. This is a fabricated path of practice which requires confidence to be successful; momentary arising phenomena don't require any confidence to exist, do they? The Noble Eightfold Path is a path of practice and not a description of mind states, wholesome or otherwise. Metta, James 28436 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] concept & characteristic Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, Larry: A few more ideas on moha: I called it delusion but perhaps we could classify its experience as having a question or having a wrong view. I would include bewilderment in having a question. Jon: I would say that 'having a question or having a wrong view' about something is not the same as being ignorant of that thing. 'Bewilderment' is a word that could mean any 1 or more of a number of things, depending on the particular circumstance. So I don’t think we can really classify bewilderment as being necessarily 1 or the other (or either). Larry: I've been trying to figure out the connection between the mental formations of greed hatred and delusion and the internal physical sensations (tangible data) that seemingly always accompany them. How about the phenomenon of consciousness produced rupa? I'm looking at the chart on p. 249 in CMA. It looks like this might work, but I'm not sure. When I'm angry, I "feel" angry. When I'm bewildered, I "feel" bewildered. I am understanding this "feeling" as the body consciousness of tangible data. Jon: Let's take embarrassment as an example. When we are embarrassed we may feel flushed in the face and uncomfortable in the body, and there may be bodily movements of a certain kind. As I understand it, these would all be instances of different rupas being conditioned by consciousness (citta). I think Nina mentioned this phenomenon in an earlier reply to you on this thread. So although there is a 'feeling' we associate with 'feeling embarrassed', in fact there are different namas and different rupas arising. Only with developed understanding will these not be taken for something they're not. Larry: Can we say root consciousness (greed, hatred, delusion) produces it? Jon: The co-arising cetasikas will condition the mental feeling in some manner, but not the rupas. Rupas are conditioned by consciousness (citta), whereas the roots of greed, hatred and delusion are mental factors (cetasikas) arising with consciousness. As far as I know, cetasikas are not given as conditioning factors for rupas. Larry: Can we say this feeling is informed, so to speak, by the very subtle cetasikas of greed hatred and delusion and has both a general nature that I can recognize as g, h, or d and also a unique nature that is slightly different every time. Jon: There are just different namas and rupas arising according to conditions. These different dhammas are to be known as they are an not as part of an amalgam of dhammas. Larry: What I'm getting at is the very common experience of bewilderment and recognizing it as such. You don't need to have special wisdom to do this. Other forms of moha are trickier. Jon: But for reasons just given, there is no such reality as the 'common experience of bewilderment'; there is a only a concept of that. Larry: ps: In english "ignorance" can also mean "ignoring" or simply "not knowing". How would you classify these two? Jon: As I understand the description given in the texts, the meaning here is "not knowing", "lack of knowledge", and has nothing to do with the idea of "ignoring". Jon 28437 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Michael I'm sorry you don't feel able to continue on this particular thread, but I'm not sure it had any potential anyway. I believe the most fruitful area for discussion is the words spoken by the Buddha himself, and I don’t think our thread was moving in that direction. Discussing what person A or B has to say about the views held by person X or Y is not conducive in my view to a better understanding of the Buddha-word. If it helps, I don't mind avoiding the terms 'sabhava' and 'paramattha' in our future correspondence. As for 'characteristics', though, I am a little surprised to see that included in your list of things about which people have strong (and wrong) views. As far as I know, 'lakkhana' is a term met frequently in the suttas, especially in the context of the ti-lakkhana of anicca/dukkha/anatta, so I'm not sure exactly what aspect concerns you here, although I know you reject the idea that individual dhammas have a particular distinguishing characteristic (if I have understood you correctly). How do you feel about the idea of anicca/dukkha/anatta as characteristics that are common to all conditioned dhammas? Jon --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Jon and all, > > Jon: > Michael, I'd be interested to hear your comments on these > descriptions of 'sabhava' and 'paramattha'. > > Michael: > I am sorry but I don’t think it would be profitable to continue the > discussion about paramatha dhammas, sabhava and characteristics. I > can see > that there are very engrossed ideas about those themes among some > members in > this list. When one has such a strong attachment to some kind of > view it can > be very tiring to convince them otherwise. I don’t have the skill, > time, and > patience to do that. My best suggestion for those who view the > Abhidhamma > as metaphysics, considering dhammas as paramatha with sabhava and > own characteristics, but that have an open mind to challenge their > ideas, to > study the Madhyamaka philosophy, in particular the writings of > Nagarjuna. I > am sure that this will only bring benefit over a long time. > > Metta > Michael 28438 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies dear KenO and RobK, Have been following this thread, and understand that Kusala/akusala can only be accummulated during Javana process. This started me thinking about how many uncountable j.p. there are in just one single day and generally much more akusala than kusala. The Manual of Abhidhamma [Narada], states: 'Anusaya - to lie, to sleep; are those that lie dormant in oneself until an opportune moment arises for them to come to the surface as they have not been eradicated. All passions are Anusayas; but these 7 are the strongest. Every worldling, who has reached the topmost jhana plane, when born amongst mankind, may give vent to these evil tendencies as they are latent in him.' These 7 passions are: attachment to sensual pleasures, kamaraganusayo; attachment to existence, bhavaraganusayo; hatred, patighanusayo; pride, mananusayo; false views, ditthanusayo; doubts, vicikicchanusayo; ignorance, avijjanusayo. So presumably, with every akusala javana process we are accummulating more and more of the above. For example, on hearing a sudden, loud noise or burning a finger on the hot stove, we jump in fright, most probably Dosa immediately; or feeling a gentle cool sea breeze on a stinking hot sticky day, lobha immediately - can't stop it happening, can't stop it accumulating. I wrote to Sarah off line a while ago, commenting on my life style for many years prior to re-connecting with her & Jon again 3-4 years ago. Despite having heard the Dhamma from the late Ven. Dhammadharo, whose discussion groups I attended daily for more than one year, and listening to T.A.Sujin, for many months, I suspect it was due to the latent tendencies that lead me to associating with unwise persons, not listening to the true dhamma anymore, therefor not giving it wise attention and so not practicing in accordance with Dhamma. The Vis.XXII 60 talks about 'the latent tendency to greed for sense desires, the l.t. for resentment, for conceit, for false view, uncertainty, greed for becoming and ignorance.' The Vis. I 12;13 states that the abandoning of defilements by cutting off is shown by Understanding; and that prevention of latent tendencies is shown by Understanding. So I guess by developing understanding, we can get to know more about these nasty latent tendencies that presumably are accumulating at an unbelievably fast rate!!!! Yikes!!! Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi RobK > > I have read this before and at that time it was not impt...... 28439 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Azita Javana process is indeed very dangerous, I happen to chance upon this email by Nina written on 6 Sep "In the commentary it is explained that there are three cycles: the cycle of kamma, the cycle of vipaka and the cycle of kilesa. Kilesa motivates again kamma and this produces again vipaka and this conditions again kilesa, and so we go on and on. Thus the three cycles keep turning around in our lives." Hi Robert and Kom Need your help again on vipaka cittas. I know there are kusala and akusala vipaka cittas - due to each kamma resultant. However in jati we only classify them as one jati where as kusala or akusala citta we classify them as two distinct jati. What is the reason it is classify as one jati. kind regards Ken O 28440 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:40am Subject: Re: How To get Through The Samsara ( 11 ) Dear Ken H, As I said, even though Paramattha Dhamma are going on their own, there are conventional things. The Buddha existed. The Buddha preached. The Buddha left messages. The Buddha left many teachings. The Buddha passed many codes of conduct or Vinaya. Even though this whole second paragraph contained no Paramattha Dhamma, all are right and every one will accept that these are right. But Paramattha Dhamma are ultimate realities and Arahats always see with their mind-eye as Paramattha Dhamma. They are not practising mindfulness on Paramattha Dhamma. Their mindfulness arises automatically. What they see as Paramattha Dhamma comes from their real realization. So they are not holding concepts that are Paramattha. This can be seen in case of Bhikkhu who knows all Tipitaka. He will know all the details. He will explain all Dhamma. But until he becomes an Arahat, he has not realized Paramattha Dhamma. What he knows are learned wisdom or Sutamaya Nana( taught wisdom ) and possibly Cintamaya Nana ( thought-out wisdom ). Arahats have Bhavanamaya Nana or realization on Dhamma. So they will not mix up Pannatta and Paramattha Dhamma. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > ------------- > Htoo: > Do you really think that this is just conceptual > imitation of Satipatthana? There are many posts coming > regarding the practice. > > ------------- > > I will read them with interest. Perhaps my questions > should wait until then. > > Since learning a little Abhidhamma, I am wary of any > 'Buddhist practice' that seems to require the notion of a > self who can practise. Instead, I think it is purely a > matter of understanding paramattha dhammas. > > ------------- > Htoo: > Did I say ' mindfulness of concepts leads to > mindfulness of Dhamma ' ? But mindfulness of all leads to > mindfulness of dhamma including concepts. > -------------- > > I'll be interested to see what that means. I hope it > doesn't include concentrating on concepts; I've tried > that and it didn't work :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H 28441 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > I wrote to Sarah off line a while ago, commenting on my life > style for many years prior to re-connecting with her & Jon again 3- 4 > years ago. Despite having heard the Dhamma from the late Ven. > Dhammadharo, whose discussion groups I attended daily for more than > one year, and listening to T.A.Sujin, for many months, I suspect it > was due to the latent tendencies that lead me to associating with > unwise persons, not listening to the true dhamma anymore, therefor > not giving it wise attention and so not practicing in accordance with > Dhamma. > ======== Dear Azita, Do you remember we spoke about this (not exactly this but along the same lines) more than a year ago in bangkok . Your understanding was still firm as soon as the time was right for you to renew your keen interest. It will be like that in the future too, whether far or near. At times not enough supporting conditions but then when the conditions are fulfilled understanding will have the chance to grow more, just a little.. Robk 28442 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > > > Hi Robert and Kom > > Need your help again on vipaka cittas. I know there are kusala and > akusala vipaka cittas - due to each kamma resultant. However in jati > we only classify them as one jati where as kusala or akusala citta we > classify them as two distinct jati. What is the reason it is > classify as one jati. > > > Good question Ken. I think you have the insight to find the answer yourself; maybe I do a disservice by telling now..;).... ... . Ok, I tell. The vipaka, whether caused by good or bad kamma is without power to further spin the wheel of dependent orgination. It is during the javana moments that akusala and kusala is done..thus there must be understanding of the difference between them. Vipaka is like a spent bullet but javana is like pulling the trigger. RobK 28443 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Jon, Jon: I believe the most fruitful area for discussion is the words spoken by the Buddha himself, and I don’t think our thread was moving in that direction. Michael: Then, to be consistent with your approach, you should also disregard the commentaries to the Canon because those are certainly not ‘words spoken by the Buddha.’ Show me a sutta where the Buddha affirms that the aggregates are paramatha and have sabhava. Those ideas come from the commentaries. And just to clarify my position, I don’t disregard all commentaries to the Canon but only those that fall into one of the extremes of reification or aniquilation. I don’t disregard all the Mahayana teachings either, but only those that fall into the extremes of reification and aniquilation. Nagarjuna teachings don’t fall into any of those extremes but are a true reflection of the spirit of the teachings of the Buddha, as found in the suttas. Jon: As for 'characteristics', though, I am a little surprised to see that included in your list of things about which people have strong (and wrong) views Michael: I probably didn’t express myself correctly. My problem is with stating ‘own’ characteristics. As if the characteristic would be something intrinsic to that thing. This is wrong view because it falls into reification. Characteristics are subject to conditionality as well and therefore cannot be intrinsic. In the conditioned world there is absolutely nothing that is not subject to conditons, and if something is subject to conditions it cannot exist by its own power. Words like paramatha and sabhava do not apply in the conditioned world. Jon: If it helps, I don't mind avoiding the terms 'sabhava' and 'paramattha' in our future correspondence Michael: I don’t mind if someone uses the words. It doesn’t bother me. I just feel sorry for those who are attached to those wrong views. Even if those words are not used, one still can clearly identify the substratum of reification in the arguments used. Metta Michael 28444 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:15am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [KenH] Dear Ken, I like very much your comment: "The Middle Way will never be found by lightening-up on our asceticism or by toning down our indulgence." The Middle Way (a.k.a. the fourth noble truth, the eightfold path) is not an averaging of two extremes. It is in no way asceticism, nor is it in any way hedonism. The focus is shifted from the things done (follow strict rules or follow sensual desires) to the understanding of the state of mind when things are done. Metta, Dan 28445 From: Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:28am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/30/03 4:18:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for your reply. > ---------- > H: >There are several senses to 'the middle way'. One of > these is the Noble Eightfold Path, itself, > > ----------- > > I think we can regard Middle Way and Eight-fold Path as > synonyms (with allowances for the five-fold, mundane, > version). I would say Right Understanding is a third > synonym but you might not see it that way. > > ----------- > H:> by which I mean the Buddha's path of practice, a > conventional process, volitionally tread (as opposed to a > momentary arising of factors). > ---------- > > Never!!!! :-) It is always a momentary arising of > factors (phenomena). There is never anything but > momentary phenomena -- apart from nibbana, the object of > the path. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that every factor of the path, when it is realized, arises at the moment. All actualities arise only at the moment. That includes right view, right resolve, right action (refraining from harmful action and intending and following through with useful action), right speech (refraining from harmful or inappropriate speech and intending and following through with useful speech), right livelihood (choosing against harmful livelihood, choosing useful livelihood, choosing against harmful action in pursuing one's livelihood, choosing useful action in pursuing one's livelihood), right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. All these, when they arise, arise in the moment. But they are all *cultivated* over many moments, and by means of intentional practice. For example, From AN X.99, there is the following, in which all the "abandoning" consists of repeated practice over a period of time: _______________________________________ Having thus gone forth, following the training & way of life of the monks, abandoning the taking of life, he abstains from the taking of life. He dwells with his rod laid down, his knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he abstains from taking what is not given. He takes only what is given, accepts only what is given, lives not by stealth but by means of a self that has become pure. Abandoning uncelibacy, he lives a celibate life, aloof, refraining from the sexual act that is the villager's way. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world. Abandoning divisive speech he abstains from divisive speech. What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here. What he has heard there he does not tell here to break these people apart from those people there. Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord. Abandoning abusive speech, he abstains from abusive speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing & pleasing to people at large. Abandoning idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal. --------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > H: >This is the primary meaning of the term. It was (and > is) the alternative to doing whatever one wants (simply > indulging oneself), on the one hand, and strict > asceticism, on the other. The Eightfold Path of Practice > is an alternative to these two extremes, and is not a > midpoint between them. It involves neither doing nothing > (and thus sinking) nor engaging in extreme and pointless > deprivation (and thus being swept away). > ----------- > > We agree here, although, instead of "nor engaging in > extreme and pointless deprivation," I would prefer you > had said, "nor doing something." > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is no problem with saying "doing something". Only if one thinks that there is some "one" who is doing something, some agent of action, is there a problem. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------- > H: >It is a doing, but a very subtle and precise doing. > ----------- > > Now we disagree. What you call 'a very subtle and precise > doing,' is still one of the extremes. The Middle Way will > never be found by lightening-up on our asceticism or by > toning down our indulgence. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: You misread me. I am not saying that Buddhist practice consists of merely avoiding extremes. I am saying that it is a specific and precise path of cultivation, and that path, itself, is subtle and avoids all extremes. ----------------------------------------------------- > > I don't think it matters whether we live in a remote > forest, eating fallen berries and wearing picked-up rags > -- as have some ariyan disciples -- or, if we live in a > castle -- as, also, some ariyan disciples have done. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nor do I. -------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------- > H: >Another sense is that of the philosophical middle > replacing the extremes of eternalism-substantialism and > annihilationism-nihilism by the emptiness-conditionality > of dependent origination. This philosophical middle way > is also not a compromise and not an amalgam, but > something else entirely, and compared to the two > extremes, it is extremely subtle. The "emptiness view" > of dependent origination is, indeed, a middle-way view; > it is Right View, and it is not a combination of or > compromise between wrong views. > --------------- > > Now you're talking! Here, there is no hint of a self who > is 'doing' or 'not doing.' This explanation -- of nama > and rupa -- is our intellectual understanding of the > Middle Way. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: There'so hint of self in talk of "doing" or "not doing" unless one's own mind presumes a self who does or refrains from doing. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Even though I am glad we agree, I am suspicious of that > word 'emptiness.' Can we replace it with 'anatta?' > 'Emptiness' might be misconstrued as, 'no-sabhava.' > :-) > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I take 'emptiness' (su~n~nata) to be synonymous with impersonality and corelessness (anattata). I also take it to mean lack of *own* being or lack of *own* nature, but not to mean complete lack of being or characteristic. What is missing is exactly atta. Self, core, and own and independent existence are lacking. Anattata is the absence of *independent* existence and nature, but it is not the absence of existence and nature. If it were, it would be nihilism, and that is not the middle way. ------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------- > H: >But the not halting and not straining of this > Crossing the Flood sutta does not pertain to view only; > it pertains to the entire middle-way path of practice of > the Buddha, the direct path to liberation. > ------------- > > Don't worry: after right view, the rest follows > automatically -- by conditions. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Really! Then the Buddha should have saved himself and millions of followers much time and effort by teaching merely the One-Fold Noble Path!! All the factors are required Ken. They support each other and increase interdependently in cycle after cycle of cultivation. Right View is the alpha and omega of the path in that it is the beginning of it and the culmination of it, but it is far and away not the whole of the path. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ================================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28446 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:28am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [KenH] Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: The focus is shifted from the things done > (follow strict rules or follow sensual desires) to the understanding > of the state of mind when things are done. > > Metta, > > Dan Then how do you explain the Vinaya Pitaka? Metta, James 28447 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:42am Subject: anapanasati 9 b Jon: It is an appropriate form of kusala for development by someone leading the homeless life to its fullest purity. I think if you look carefully at the texts you will find that in many suttas where samatha is being discussed, the real focus of the teaching is on how, for a monk in whom samatha is already highly developed or who has the potential for such, samatha can form the basis for enlightenment (the 'both ways' enlightenment). <> No, not inconsequential, since all kusala supports the development of vipassana; it's just that it's not an absolute prerequisite, if we are talking about the separate development of (mundane) samatha. Not to be confused with the samadhi that arises together with each moment of satipatthana, that is also developed together with the other (path) factors arising at those moments and that culminates in samma-samadhi of the Noble Eightfold Path at the moment of supramundane path consciousness (= magga citta, = enlightenment). (Jon to Rob Ep, Sept 16): the Anapanasati Sutta is a teaching on attaining to the superior kind of insight known as 'insight both ways', based on jhana, in this case jhana with breath as object. As such, is directed at those who have already attained jhana with breath as object or who are potentially capable of doing so. For such individuals, breath is already a naturally arising object in their daily life, a daily life that is far different from yours and mine. So, no, I do not read this sutta as *advocating* anything about taking a particular object for insight development... As I have indicated, the sutta was given for the benefit of those (monks) who are already highly adept at attending to the breath (actually, its nimitta) as an object of samatha, and for those persons the sutta is indeed about the discernment of an 'everyday object'. 28448 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty, swimmingpool meditation Hi Larry, I first take your last two uestions, since these concern our approach to study. op 30-12-2003 01:31 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I agree it would be difficult to take life as an object of satipatthana.... L What is the difference between the continuity of a non-living rupa such > as what we would call a stick and a living rupa such as what we would > call an insect? There is continuity in both cases but the stick doesn't > eat. Is there a connection between life and nutriment? N: Very good remark, Larry, you help me to consider an important point I tend to forget. What we call dead matter originates from temperature only. So long as there are conditions it is replaced, so it seems that it can last. Rupas in a living body originate from four factors. Different groups conditioned by either kamma, or citta, or heat or nutrition. But, these groups originated from the four factors also support one another. If there would be only groups originating from kamma, but not from food, the body collapses, or it cannot move properly. These groups are interrelated. The Expositor (I, 84) explains that these groups are interlocked. When you want to convey a meaning by gestures, citta condiitons bodily motion, but the rupas originating from the other three factors support it. Otherwise the gestures would not be supple. As I quoted to Howard in connection with nutrition: We read in the ³Guide to Conditional Relations²(U Narada): Thus, the study of all these rupas helps us to have more understanding of the intricacy of conditions. If the right temperature does not produce rupas, we cannot move about in a supple way or do exercises, but, we are stiff. There are many reminders in our study not to cling to my walking, my going, my exercising. L: I wonder if life faculty could even be an object of one of the 5 doors. Is there a category of realities which can only be inferred because of limitations of the sense doors? N: Life faculty is a subtle rupa, it can be known only through the mind-door. It cannot be touched or seen. L:Can we say that not all realities are objects of satipatthana? N: All of them are objects of satipatthana, but, this does not mean that this is so for us now. Rupas that are are hard to penetrate. I find the coarse rupas such as visible object, sound, tangible object already difficult enough. But, it is said in the suttas that should be known. But it is not possible in the beginning. The usefulness of our study: we are further away from the Buddha's time and we need more details. As Rob K quoted before: when we are more deluded (bewildered) more details are necessary. What we learn can sink in and as we learn more, we see that it is most helpful to understand conditions for whatever we do, say, for our activities during the day. Doubt is likely to occur, and bewilderment. The late Ven. Dhammadharo once said: then you can be aware of doubt, doubt, doubt. Or, we could say the same about thinking: be aware of thinking, thinking, thinking. These are objects worthy of study, not to be neglected. People are often wondering what the middle way is: actually, it is one moment of satipatthana without any selection. It is a moment by moment process. Nina. 28449 From: Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty, swimmingpool meditation Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/30/03 1:46:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > What we call dead matter originates from temperature only. ======================== Could you please elaborate on what is meant by 'temperature', Nina. I think it must be something other than just warmth/cold of varying degree. It strikes me as quite an overstatement - and very suprising to chemists, physicists, and even Buddhists who require more than one condition for the arising of a dhamma - that temperature is the only cause of the origination of dead matter. Moreover, "dead matter" isn't a single rupa, is it? There must be much here that I am missing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28450 From: Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty, swimmingpool meditation Hi again, Nina - I have another brief question, Nina, stemming from the same post of yours. In a message dated 12/30/03 1:46:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > N: Life faculty is a subtle rupa, it can be known only through the > mind-door. It cannot be touched or seen. > ============================ In what way is it known through the mind door? As a direct object of mano-vi~n~nana (as a paramattha dhamma), or by inference (as a concept)? I find the notion of direct mind-door awareness (and not following upon a sense-door process) perplexing, but very interesting. I know that awareness of the "water element" (i.e. fluidity/cohesion) is said to fall into this category. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28451 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Dear Azita, I like the way you put it, very honest, very true. Nina. op 30-12-2003 14:33 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > So I guess by developing understanding, we can get to know more > about these nasty latent tendencies that presumably are accumulating > at an unbelievably fast rate!!!! Yikes!!! 28452 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood , Vinaya Dear James and Dan, You are both right. I like to combine: satipatthana should never be separated from Vinaya, otherwise it is just following empty rules. The ideal recluse is mindful, develops wisdom, and his observance of Vinaya follows quite naturally, no forcing. He is mindful of what appears through the six doors and not lost in details. Nina. op 30-12-2003 17:28 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > wrote: > > The focus is shifted from the things done >> (follow strict rules or follow sensual desires) to the > understanding >> of the state of mind when things are done. > 28453 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:46pm Subject: Re: The present moment Hi Howard, Thank you for asking me to clarify. I'm happy to oblige, and hope you won't regret asking :-) There is consciousness, plain undifferentiated sentience. It is the raw material of existence. It is a given. Then there is consciousness of consciousness, awareness. Awareness is not given, it is selected. Even before birth, babies are learning that through action the content of awareness changes. What starts of as seemingly random, cerebral palsy-like action, whether it be movement, or sound making, or changing the focus of the eyes, is learned to be brought under control. Once under control, action can become intentional. And so in a dozen or so months, babies have abstracted out of the soup of undifferentiated consciousness an ever-changing flux of foreground, background awareness. This foreground, background flux is not a property of consciousness, it is a property of awareness, which is a product of selection based on preference and avoidance. Out of this process of selection the "I as intending agent" is born as a concept. And so future activity is based on what one is selecting out of the soup at this moment, and what one is selecting out of the soup is based on what one has intended in the past. Babies sleep 22 hours a day. By the time they are 2 years old they refuse to go to sleep. This limpet state of attachment to awareness kicks in pretty soon, doesn't it :-) Hope this clarifies somewhat. I think the following is relevant. (It's less than 1 Kb, Sarah :-) Samyutta Nikaya I.10 Arañña Sutta Standing to one side, a devata addressed the Blessed One with a verse: Living in the wilderness, staying peaceful, remaining chaste, eating just one meal a day: why are their faces so bright & serene? [The Buddha:] They don't sorrow over the past, don't long for the future. They survive on the present. That's why their faces are bright & serene. From longing for the future, from sorrowing over the past, fools wither away like a green reed cut down. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 12/29/03 6:59:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, > hhofman@t... writes: > > > > > Hi everyone, (that includes me) > > > > There are two types of present moment. > > > > One is the PRESENT as experienced in terms of the PAST. This present > > is not a given, but is constructed entirely on intention. Intention > > is based in the past to maintain it in the future. It is always > > based on self-view. The purpose of this type of present moment is > > indeed to maintain in the future the self-view that lies at it's > > origin. This type of present moment is always accompanied by > > conflict and anxiety, because it requires much effort to maintain > > the illusion of the reality of what is not real. When the conflict > > and anxiety become greater than the craving for the next moment with > > self view, the opportunity has arisen to not intend a future moment > > based on the past, and thus obtain a glimpse of the > > > > Present in terms of itself. This moment is given, unchangeable, > > timeless. It has no content. It is free of anxiety and conflict. > > > > This moment is not intended, but is there when there is no intention. > > > > The Buddha praised a lifestyle in which it was possible to become > > free of intention. The only consequence that follows from ignoring > > his recommendations is the continuation of the past-future life that > > is craved for. Anxiety and conflict and lip service to the Triple > > Gem can go on forever. > > > > May all be free from anxiety and conflict > > > > > > Herman > > > > > ============================ > It *sounds* to me that you may be saying something very important and > quite deep here. Unfortunately for me, it is passing me by without my getting > it. Could you explain a but more? In particular, how exactly are you using the > word 'intention'. It *seems* to me that your meaning is different than the > usual, everyday meaning or at least is different from how I understand the word. > (The word, of course, isn't important, but the meaning is.) > > With metta, > Howard > 28454 From: Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:55am Subject: vitakka and vicára A critic of the translation of the Pali terms 'vitakka' and 'vicára' I have been studying the Pali canon in English translation as a means of providing canonical support for my subjective contemplative experiences. Through this study I have come across a few key areas that seem like errors in translation. The Pali terms 'vitakka' and 'vicára' are two of those words that seem to be incorrectly translated. I have appended to this post a copy of a definition for the Pali words 'vitakka' and 'vicára' from NYANATILOKA's, Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines. There you will find NYANATILOKA translates 'vitakka' and 'vicára' as "thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and sustained thought')." I do not believe the historic Buddha was intending that one arrive at jhana through an intellectual activity, but one of subjective investigation through meditation, therefore not as a process of thinking and reasoning. I believe it must be an erroneous translation of the Pali words "vitakka-vicára" to say that through an intellectual pursuit, such as "applied and sustained thought" the Buddha said one can arrive at jhana. On the Jhana Support Group, we have found no evidence to support a belief that "intellectual investigation," or "applied and sustained thought," or "thought-conception and discursive thinking" will ever lead anywhere other than ignorance delusion and doubt (dukkha). I believe vitakka and vicára, if they lead to jhana, must be better translated as 'concentration' in which one "turns and returns one's mind," or "applies and reapplies" one's attention to one's meditation object. It is however possible that the Pali language might be inadequate to make the distinction between concentration and discursive thinking. Thank-you very much for your time. If you care to discuss this further, then please respond to me either here, or directly off-list, or on the Jhana Support Group. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks Jhana Support Group A support group for ecstatic contemplatives website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ Subscribe: Jhanas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com From the Buddhist Dictionary Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, by NYANATILOKA http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/vitakka_vicaara.htm vitakka-vicára 'thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and sustained thought') are verbal functions (vací-sankhára: s. sankhára) of the mind, the so-called 'inner speech ('parole interieure'). They are constituents of the 1st absorption (s. jhána), but absent in the higher absorptions. (1) "Thought-conception (vitakka) is the laying hold of a thought, giving it attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the consciousness to the object. (2) "Discursive thinking (vicára) is the roaming about and moving to and fro of the mind.... It manifests itself as continued activity of mind" (Vis.M. IV). (1) is compared with the striking against a bell, (2) with its resounding; (1) with the seizing of a pot, (2) with wiping it. (Cf. Vis . IV.). 28455 From: Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 0:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The present moment Hi, Herman - In a message dated 12/30/03 5:48:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Thank you for asking me to clarify. I'm happy to oblige, and hope > you won't regret asking :-) ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't regret it at all! Far from it. I've read ahead, and I am very impressed! BTW, do you know Michael Olds? I think he might well like what you are writing here very much. Also, I think that you might find some interest in reading some of the psychological Buddhist analysis of Vasubandhu. It seems to me to be related. ------------------------------------------------------- > > There is consciousness, plain undifferentiated sentience. It is the > raw material of existence. It is a given. > > Then there is consciousness of consciousness, awareness. Awareness > is not given, it is selected. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, reflective, selective, and reifying consciousness - a kind of turning the mind back upon itself. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Even before birth, babies are learning that through action the > content of awareness changes. What starts of as seemingly random, > cerebral palsy-like action, whether it be movement, or sound making, > or changing the focus of the eyes, is learned to be brought under > control. Once under control, action can become intentional. > > And so in a dozen or so months, babies have abstracted out of the > soup of undifferentiated consciousness an ever-changing flux of > foreground, background awareness. This foreground, background flux > is not a property of consciousness, it is a property of awareness, > which is a product of selection based on preference and avoidance. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Excellent! And I think that Vasubandhu would think it excellent as well. ---------------------------------------------- > Out of this process of selection the "I as intending agent" is born > as a concept. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I think you should read David Kalupahana's book "The Principles of Buddhist Psychology" (SUNY Press) in which he discusses most particularly the vijnaptimattra (mere-concept) psychology of Vasubandhu. I think it may be like reading your own thoughts put on paper! ------------------------------------------------- > > And so future activity is based on what one is selecting out of the > soup at this moment, and what one is selecting out of the soup is > based on what one has intended in the past. > > Babies sleep 22 hours a day. By the time they are 2 years old they > refuse to go to sleep. This limpet state of attachment to awareness > kicks in pretty soon, doesn't it :-) > > Hope this clarifies somewhat. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: It does. You're an interesting guy, Herman! ----------------------------------------------- > > I think the following is relevant. (It's less than 1 Kb, Sarah :-) > > Samyutta Nikaya I.10 Arañña Sutta > > Standing to one side, a devata addressed the Blessed One with a > verse: > Living in the wilderness, > staying peaceful, remaining chaste, > eating just one meal a day: > why are their faces > so bright &serene? > [The Buddha:] > > They don't sorrow over the past, > don't long for the future. > They survive on the present. > That's why their faces > are bright &serene. > From longing for the future, > from sorrowing over the past, > fools wither away > like a green reed cut down. > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28456 From: Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:12pm Subject: kamma produced, kamma resultant Hi Nina, Can we say my face as an abiding, living reality is kamma produced whether I am aware of it or not? When I become aware of some aspect of my face (hardness, color etc.), is that aspect kamma resultant? When I die and my face becomes part of a corpse, is the abiding reality of that corpse temperature produced? If someone smells that corpse, that smell is kamma resultant? Can we say all the materials of my computer are temperature produced; at the time those materials were fashioned into parts those parts were consciousness produced, but the abiding reality of those materials as parts is temperature produced? If the abiding reality of my computer is temperature produced, can we say whenever I touch my computer that touch creates a new group of materials that is consciousness produced? The touch itself is kamma resultant. If it rains on my computer, whatever effect that has is temperature produced. Larry 28457 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:42pm Subject: Re: The present moment Hi Howard, Thank you for the tips for further reading. I will certainly follow them up. And thank you so much for the encouragement. Much appreciated. All the best Herman 28458 From: Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:49pm Subject: life maintenance Hi Nina, Please correct the following. Life only arises with kamma produced rupa. That is: organic matter (the 8 inseparables, basically food), the 5 sensitivities, male and female faculties, and the heart base. These are what life maintains. However, not all organic matter is kamma produced. It could be produced by temperature, consciousness, or nutriment. Nutriment (food) is the same as organic matter; so nutriment can produce itself. One food can become another food, as with excrement. The sensitivities, sex faculties, life faculty, and heart base are not organic, but they are derived from the 4 great essentials (earth, water, fire, and air). Life doesn't maintain matter produced by temperature, consciousness, or nutriment. Larry 28459 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:52pm Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Dear James, The Vinaya and patimokkha are not the "Middle Way" and are not the focus of the teaching, and Buddhism not a brand of "Asceticism Lite". Patimokkha is not at all a set rules that prescribe a way to develop wisdom. The Vinaya was compiled to build and promote harmonious relations within the community of Bhikkhus and between the Bhikkhus and lay supporters. In the early days of the Buddha's teaching, there was no Vinaya. As the Vinaya became more elaborate, some bhikkhus complained that training under the rules was difficult, and Buddha granted them exemptions from some of the rules. When Buddha was in his last days, he said that the Sangha should feel free to abolish the minor rules. (He never delineated which rules were "minor," and the bhikkhus could not agree amongst themselves which were "minor", so all 227 rules were kept.) Is it your opinion that the patimokkha is an outline of rules that constitute the "Middle Way"? Or constitute a part of the "Middle Way"? Although not the Middle Way and not a part of the eightfold path, the Vinaya has inestimable value in holding together the Sangha and helping preserve the teachings. It has performed remarkably well in this role for the past 2500+ years. I am enormously grateful to Buddha for setting up the Vinaya and to the Sangha for following it and passing down the teachings so admirably for such a long, long time. Dan Highlights of prior discussion: Dan: [With the Middle Way], the focus is shifted from the things done (follow strict rules or follow sensual desires) to the understanding of the state of mind when things are done. James: Then how do you explain the Vinaya Pitaka? 28460 From: Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] vitakka and vicára Hi Jeff, I think applied thought and sustained thought as jhana factors are the cognitive effort needed to focus on and stay with the object of meditation, a concept, in the first jhana. Presumably in the higher jhanas the object is just there, without any cognitive effort. It doesn't have much to do with reasoning; but in the first jhana I think there could probably still be little traces of reason, especially for a beginner. This falls away in the second jhana (using the 4-fold scheme). When counting the jhanas as 5, applied thought falls away in the second but sustained thought remains. I think this is just a subtle indication that the object of meditation is beginning to abide on its own. Just a guess. Outside jhana, applied thought and sustained thought could be discursive thinking, non-discursive reasoning and similar stuff. I don't think sustained attention qualifies as applied thought and sustained thought unless there is a concept. When someone throws a ball at you, you grasp it and follow it with your attention, but that doesn't seem like applied thought and sustained thought to me (although it is a method of hypnotism). Actually, I'm not sure about this -- need more research. Larry 28461 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:45pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Ken O, I think a clarification of the dhamma taught by anybody is a fantastic idea. Because the Buddha is a samma-sambuddha, he taught us the realities that he had penetrated by panna, the teachings (reflecting the truths) do not conflict. I was reminded that if we think the teachings conflict, either we don't understand it yet, or whoever is teaching it is not teaching what the Buddha had taught. > My understanding is that Vipaka citta are kamma produced hence there > is no way we can decide it is kusala or aksuala for its process of 17 > moments of Vipaka cittas. One can only make a difference in the mind > door, where whereby only kusala citta or akusala cittas could arise > to affect the latent tendecies and accumulations for future vipaka > cittas. This means Chapter 5 is not correct bc vipaka cittas are > vithi citta but not javana-vithi-citta and they cannot accumulate > latent tendecies as explain in Chapter 3. > Do you know that the sense door process comprises of vipaka, kiriya, and kusala/akusala? The sense door process is not purely vipaka, it has: 1) Avajjana (1 moment - kiriya) 2) Vinanana (1 moment - vipaka) 3) Sampatichanna (1 moment - vipaka) 4) Santirana (1 moment - vipaka) 5) Votappana (1 moment - kiriya) 6) Javana (7 moments, kusala or akusala in non-arahats) 7) Tatalampana (2 moments - vipaka) Although undiscernable by us, the kusala/akusala vipaka cittas are differentiated by the Abhidhamma. There are 5 possible pairs of the sense door vipaka (in position 2 above): one set kusala vipaka, and the other akusala vipaka. I think they can be differentiated by their characteristics, with highly refined panna. What she meant about the accumulation in the sense door is at position 6 (javana), where tendencies are accumulated, even in the sense door. In the mind door, the process is less complicated (even if it is way more prevalent than the sense doors) 1) Avajjana (1 moment - kiriya) 2) Javana (7 moments, kusala or akusala in non-arahats) 3) Tatalampanna (2 moments - vipaka) The tendencies are accumulated only in the position 2 here as well. kom 28462 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:10pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Latent tendecies Dear Ken O, In her work Summary of Paramatha Dhamma, TA Sujin explained that the reason why there is only one resultant jati to two causal jati is because vipaka (result) must follow its kamma (cause). Interestingly, although classified as only one jati, all the resultant cittas, among the 89 cittas, are clearly marked as either kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka. This implies that there are differences in characteristics among them, even if the cetasikas co-arising with the kusala and akusala vipaka may be identical. Furthermore, the commentaries (I think) talk about how to tell the differences, and the surest way to tell, is from the differences in the vipaka's characteristics. Clearly, there are differences in the characteristics of the resultant vipakas. My take on this is, the subtlety between the two are probably beyond provability in my case. I probably will never understand fully why the classification by jati of vipaka is of one type. However, classifications are supposed to aid the understanding of the current moment, if it doesn't, well, maybe in the future ;-) kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenneth Ong [mailto:ashkenn2k@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 6:19 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies > > > Need your help again on vipaka cittas. I know there are kusala and > akusala vipaka cittas - due to each kamma resultant. However in jati > we only classify them as one jati where as kusala or akusala citta we > classify them as two distinct jati. What is the reason it is > classify as one jati. 28463 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 0:44am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Dan, James and everyone, This is the verbatim remainder of the intro to the Vinaya as found on accesstoinsight. "It helps to keep in mind that the name the Buddha gave to the spiritual path he taught was "Dhamma-vinaya" -- the Doctrine (Dhamma) and Discipline (Vinaya) -- suggesting an integrated body of wisdom and ethical training. The Vinaya is thus an indispensible facet and foundation of all the Buddha's teachings, inseparable from the Dhamma, and worthy of study by all followers -- lay and ordained, alike. Lay practitioners will find the Vinaya Pitaka filled with valuable practical lessons concerning human nature, guidance on how to establish and maintain a harmonious community or organization, as well as profound teachings of the Dhamma itself. But its greatest value, perhaps, lies in its power to inspire the layperson to consider the extraordinary possibilities offered by a life of true renunciation, lived in harmony with the Dhamma. " If understanding the state of mind when things are done does not lead to practical change, I'd say there has been no understanding. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear James, > The Vinaya and patimokkha are not the "Middle Way" and are not the > focus of the teaching, and Buddhism not a brand of "Asceticism Lite". > Patimokkha is not at all a set rules that prescribe a way to develop > wisdom. The Vinaya was compiled to build and promote harmonious > relations within the community of Bhikkhus and between the Bhikkhus > and lay supporters. In the early days of the Buddha's teaching, there > was no Vinaya. As the Vinaya became more elaborate, some bhikkhus > complained that training under the rules was difficult, and Buddha > granted them exemptions from some of the rules. When Buddha was in > his last days, he said that the Sangha should feel free to abolish > the minor rules. (He never delineated which rules were "minor," and > the bhikkhus could not agree amongst themselves which were "minor", > so all 227 rules were kept.) > > Is it your opinion that the patimokkha is an outline of rules that > constitute the "Middle Way"? Or constitute a part of the "Middle Way"? > > Although not the Middle Way and not a part of the eightfold path, the > Vinaya has inestimable value in holding together the Sangha and > helping preserve the teachings. It has performed remarkably well in > this role for the past 2500+ years. I am enormously grateful to > Buddha for setting up the Vinaya and to the Sangha for following it > and passing down the teachings so admirably for such a long, long > time. > > Dan > > > Highlights of prior discussion: > > Dan: [With the Middle Way], the focus is shifted from the things done > (follow strict rules or follow sensual desires) to the understanding > of the state of mind when things are done. > > James: Then how do you explain the Vinaya Pitaka? 28464 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 0:51am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi James, As I read the sutta you have quoted, it is perfectly consistent with the momentary nature of conditioned reality. ------------ J: > These qualities of the Eightfold Path are fabricated, they are created in the mundane world, ------------- In the normal, conventional sense of the word, are any mental qualities regarded as 'fabricated?' I think you'll find that, conventionally speaking, only material things are fabricated (constructed, made to actually exist). However, in the reality taught by the Buddha, mental phenomena are just as real as material phenomena. Each nama and rupa has its own, unique essence which has been fabricated by the conditioning (fabricating), actions of other namas and rupas. ------------- J: > they do not arise spontaneously because then they would be considered unfabricated. -------------- Agreed, but it is not contended that nama and rupa arise spontaneously. They arise dependent on conditions and they cease dependent on conditions. The only exception - - nibbana -- doesn't arise or cease at all. ------------ J: > This is a fabricated path of practice which requires confidence to be successful; momentary arising phenomena don't require any confidence to exist, do they? ------------- The wholesome ones do: Saddha (confidence), is a mental phenomenon that arises with all wholesome consciousness. ------------- J: > The Noble Eightfold Path is a path of practice and not a description of mind states, wholesome or otherwise. ------------- Strictly speaking, it is the Dhamma that is a 'description' of mind states, (and physical states). It includes a description of the Noble Eightfold Path as a series of (supramundane) conscious moments leading to the final cessation of suffering. I would be interested to know how many Buddhist schools officially share your view. Don't they all have an Abhidhamma that specifies the momentary, impersonal namas and rupas of reality? Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Ken H, > ...... > > ""Among whatever fabricated qualities there may be, the Noble > Eightfold Path -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right > action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right > concentration -- is considered supreme. Those who have confidence in > the Noble Eightfold Path have confidence in what is supreme; and for > those with confidence in the supreme, supreme is the result…" 28465 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hi Jeff, (Christine & all), --- "Jeffrey S. Brooks" wrote: > Hello Sarah, what a pleasure to hear back from you. ... S: Likewise. Thank you for continuing this thread and also to Christine for helping out too, knowing I'm rather busy at the moment. .... > %%%%% Jeff: > I prefer to use attentive awareness than clear comprehension, because > comprehension implies cognition, and it is clear to me, the Buddha was > looking for a bare awareness without the cognitive process involved. > Comprehension would imply cognition. .... S:I agree with you that the translation can be misleading. However, I understand ‘sampajaano’ as used throughout the Satipatthana sutta to be referring to wisdom,right understanding, panna. This of course is direct understanding of realities, not thinking about them. Right understanding, right awareness and right concentration etc of course arise together. Quote from commentary to Satipatthana Sutta: >Sampajano = "Clearly comprehending." Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajañña]. [Tika] "Clearly comprehending" = Discerning rightly, entirely and equally [samma samantato samañca pajananto]. [T] "Rightly" = Correctly [aviparitam]. [T] "Entirely" = By knowing in all ways [sabbakarapajananena]. [T] "Equally" = By reason of proceeding through the conveying of higher and higher spiritual attainments [uparupari visesavaha-bhavena pavattiya].< ..... Jeff: > Secondly, if you read the Satipatthana Sutta, MN 10 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn010b.html > then you will see: > III. The Contemplation of consciousness and mental states (Cognition) > and > IV. The Contemplation of Mental Objects > For me, this practice has definitely been a moment-to-moment awareness > practice of all 7 senses, which includes all actions, words and > thoughts. Through this practice I have been fortunate to arrive at a > pleasant abiding in the here and now. I am quite sure if I was not > mindful in every moment I would not have a pleasant abiding in every > moment. > %%%%%%%%% S: I don’t think you will find a reference to ‘all 7 senses’ anywhere. Actions, thoughts and words are concepts conceptualised in the mind processes. They are only ever ideas and never actualities which can be directly known by panna or wisdom. Clearly understanding the characteristics of namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena) as distinct from concepts is essential in the development of satipatthana.* Otherwise, we may easily be misled into taking for satipatthana what is concentration of general mindfulness as we are used to using the term conventionally for sati-sampajanna (clear comprehension) ..... > %%%%%%% Jeff:Sorry to disagree again. I believe it is awareness of > everything that arrives in the sense domain. ..... S: Please continue to disagree. This is what a discussion is for;-)No need to apologise for your helpful comments. As the commentary to the sutta makes very clear, it is not the kind of awareness that those who have not heard the Buddha’s teachings already have in their daily lives whilst performing various activities that is being referred to. Satipatthana is the very specific direct understanding and awareness of paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities) one at a time without any idea of self. Whilst I agree that any reality experienced can be directly known, in the beginning, such knowledge and awareness is bound to be very occasional only. Just a ‘finger-snap’ as we read about in Anguttara Nikaya, Bk of Ones. ..... Jeff: > Also, I am not just > relying on the Sati suttas. I have read the whole if the Digha Nikaya > and much of the Majjhima Nikaya, and if you read the Lohicca Sutta DN > 12 you will clearly see that the historic Buddha trained his students > to recall past lifetimes through clairvoyance, and to develop > Clairaudience and to also develop a mind-made body, which from the > description is clearly astral traveling. Therefore, even though auras > and chakras are not clearly mentioned it is reasonable that these > realities would not have been ignored. > %%%%%%% ..... S: You asked in your follow-up post about the ‘Sati suttas’. Let me make it clear at this point that I read all the suttas (in fact the entire Tipitaka and ancient commentaries) as being descriptions of the development of satipatthana and as being 'sati suttas';-) You raise many points here relating to particular abilities in jhana and what exactly the Buddha instructed in this regard. I’d be very glad to discuss the Lohicca sutta as a separate thread if you wish or the Samannaphala sutta which overlaps for verses 41-97 (and to which B.Bodhi’s translation of the comy is available). I’d just be going slowly for this month. Auras and chakras are concepts representing various realities too. For example, when a person sees or reads another’s aura, in truth only visible object is ever seen and can ever be known. After the experience of what is seen though the eye-sense, the object can be experienced through the mind-door, initially as visible object and then as concept of that object. Of course, different visible objects are being seen all the time and always vary for us. The same applies to the realities experienced through the body-sense which may relate to the chakras. When we think we experience certain energies from our own or others’ bodies at particular locations, in truth it is various combinations of the air, temperature and earth elements being experienced, followed again by concepts about chakras and so on. Whatever skills or abilities anyone may have, there remain only six doorways (or senses) by which they are experienced. This was also true for the Buddha and his great disciples. The truths the Buddha taught as included in the objects of satipatthana as Christine explained, remain as the only realities whatever our particular experiences. I’ll just add these as I understand them from the text: kayanupassana - direct understanding of rupas (primary and derived physical phenomena) vedanupassana - direct understanding of feelings cittanupassana - direct understanding of moments of consciousness such as seeing, hearing or thinking dhammanupassana - direct understanding of mental factors accompanying cittas as well as namas and rupas already specified and included in the 5 khandhas etc ..... > %%%%%%%% Jeff: > Well, I think Sarah, you are missing one point wisdom depends on being > purified by jhana, not the other way around. > %%%%%%%% ..... S: We’ve recently started looking at the Samyutta Nikaya and will be slowly working through the suttas. I hope you can join in. At the moment we’re looking at the first section, Devatasamyutta and one sutta being discussed is SN 1:46 . We read: "'The straight way' that path is called, and 'fearless' is its destination. The chariot is called 'unrattling', Fitted with wheels of wholesome states. "The sense of shame is its leaning board, Mindfulness its upholstery; I call the Dhamma the charioteer, With right view running out in front. [n.101] "One who has such a vehicle - Whether a woman or a man - Has, by means of this vehicle, Drawn close to Nibbaana." [n.102] Christine wrote (after looking at the notes from the commentary as given by B.Bodhi): C: >Interesting - I would have thought that Samatha and the Jhanas might have figured here, but it is Vipassanaa. "right view running out in front" is vipassanaa-sammaaditthi. "For just as the king's servants first clear the path before the king comes out, so the right view of insight clears the way by contemplating the aggregates, etc., as impermanent etc., and then the right view of the path (magga-sammaa-ditthi) arises fully understanding the round of existence."< ..... From section on the Aggregates: >.....”This is consciousness [vinnana]; thus is the arising of consciousness; and >thus is the disappearance of consciousness.” > %%%%%% Jeff: > Unfortunately I do not accept the translation of vinnana as > Consciousness, especially in this case. If we do as the above quote > suggests, then we come to the absurd conclusion that we ultimately > seek an conscious state in nibbana. ..... S: Perhaps we can just use vinnana or citta as you object to consciousness. That’s fine. However, I don’t follow your conclusion here. cittas (or vinnana) arise and fall like all other conditioned realities. They have characteristics of seeing, hearing and so on which can be directly known and which are quite distinct from the objects experienced by them such as visible object, sound and so on. Only by directly understanding all these conditioned dhammas repeatedly can higher insights be realized and eventually the unconditioned dhamma, nibbana. Perhaps you can elaborate further on your comment and conclusion. I have an idea there’s an important point you’re raising. ..... Jeff: >This of course is absurd, because > we have been practicing awareness training exercises in Sati. > Therefore why would we assume we go to all of the trouble of > developing awareness if ultimately we are going to end up unconscious? > If that were true we might as well go to sleep or commit suicide, and > get it over with quickly. .... S: Oh, I understand a little more, I think. Nibbana is experienced by the eightfold path factors, right understanding and so on. The lokuttara (supramundane) cittas experience or ‘are conscious’ of the object, nibbana, in this case. At the end of the arahant’s life, at parinibbana, there are no more conditions for further conscious experiencing of anything. No conditions for rebirth or continuation in samsara. Of course, this is very different from going to sleep or dying as usual. Also, no self to go to any trouble either;-) .... J: > It was a pleasure discussing the dhamma with you. .... S: Likewise, Jeff. You raise many interesting points and I hope we can continue this useful discussion. Metta, Sarah ===== * "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Commentary continued on "Here, Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body..." In this body, apart from the above mentioned collection, there is seen no body, man, woman or anything else. Beings engender wrong belief, in many ways, in the bare groups of things mentioned above. Therefore the men of old said: What he sees that is not (properly) seen; What is seen, that he does not (properly) see; Not seeing (properly) he is shackled clean; And he, the shackled fool, cannot get free. [Tika] "What he sees" = What man or woman he sees. Why, is there no seeing of man or a woman with the eye? There is. "I see a woman," "I see a man." -- these statements refer to what he sees by way of ordinary perception. That perception, owing to wrong comprehension, does not get at the sense-basis [rupayatana] in the highest sense, philosophically, through the falsely determined condition of material form [viparita gahavasena miccha parikappita rupatta]. [T] Or the meaning is: the absence of perception which is called the seeing of primary and derived materiality, beginning with things such as the hair of the head, owing to non-cognizability of the collective nature of an object like a man or woman by eye-consciousness [kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam ditthi na hoti acakkhuviññana viññeyyatta]. [T] "What is seen that he does not properly see" = He does not see, according to reality by the eye of wisdom, the sense-basis which exists, the collection of primary and derived materiality beginning with hair of the head and the like [yam rupayatanam kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam dittham tam pañña-cakkhuna bhutato na passati]. [T] "Not seeing properly he is shackled" = Not seeing this body as it actually is, with the eye of wisdom, he thinks: "This is mine, this am I, this is my self," and is bound with the fetter of defilement [imam attabhavam yathabhutam paññacakkhuna apassanto etam mama esohamasmi eso me attati kilesa bandhanena bajjhati]. ***************************************** 28466 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's tree and a little hint ..Continuation of Pannatta Dear Htoo (Michael & Carl), Your post to Carl on pannatti (concepts) was very detailed and useful and can be used as a reference article to return to. You wrote: > When we are saying Pannatta, actually we are speaking about ultimate > realities. In the ultimate sense there are only Citta, Cetasika, Rupa > and Nibbana. > > Pannatta is not an ultimate realities. But no one will say it is > wrong to say this is a tree and so on. Because it is conventionally > true and very true. .... As you suggest, there has to be the clear distinction between concepts and ultimate realities. It may be, as Michael is discussing with Jon, that the term ‘paramattha dhammas’ (ultimate realities) is not used in the suttas, but definitely the meaning is there throughout as I just discussed in my post to Jeff. Often, without the Abhidhamma and commentaries, the entire meaning can be lost as we’re seeing in the SN thread. Michael, I’d be grateful, in this regard, if you’d also take a look at this old post of mine on this subject and in particular at Robert Eddison’s comments I requote in it: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9249.html Any further feedback appreciated. Htoo, you mentioned to Ken H that ‘there are conventional things’. I’d like to clarify that we *think* there are conventional things. In truth they don’t exist except in our imaginations. When you also discuss how arahants ‘see...paramattha dhammas’, I’d also like to add that in fact paramattha dhammas are those phenomena that make up our lives with or without any knowledge of them and in fact right understanding has to begin to directly know them now from the very beginning (theoretically and then directly) in order for there to be any insight at all (vipassana ). In other words, it’s not a matter of no knowledge and then full knowledge of paramattha dhammas for the arahant. The practice has to begin and continue rightly, being aware and understanding namas and rupas without any wrong selection or focussing with an idea of self. We begin to learn how there is no distinction between what we learn in the Abhidhamma and practice or satipatthana as taught by the Buddha. I look forward to following your continued discussion with Ken H. I think it’s most helpful for everyone and you’re both raising important points. Thank you for encouraging Ken H and for helping to shake him out of his post-Xmas blues for us;-) ;-) Thank you again for all your contributions. Metta, Sarah ====== 28467 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:58am Subject: Basic Theravada Buddhism Course Dear Group, The Basic Buddhism Course No. 9, designed for those who are interested to learn Theravada Buddhism, starts in January, 2004 and will run for 6 months. The Course Registrants receive weekly lectures by EMail as an option. The Lecturer list includes monks mainly from UK, USA and Myanmar and some lay persons. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BuddhismBeginners9/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28468 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Dan and James IMHO Vinaya to me is definitely part of the middle way. From the Vissudd <> One of the three abstinences, Right Action falls inside the Vinaya hence we cannot say Vinaya is not part of the middle way. Likewise if we say Vinaya is not part of the Middle way so does Abdhidhamma bc they are part of three Baskets. If Vinaya is not impt to the middle path, Buddha will might as well say one noble footpath (that is right understanding) and why bother saying the next seven. However I like to qualify that without right understanding one cannot established the correct way of the path as right understanding is the forerunner (I think there is one sutta about it) and pivotal to enlightmentment Again in Visudd << (the reason) that for (the state of) Arahatship by understanding. And the Arahant is called "perfected in understanding".>> The 8NP is not fabricated, it already exist, an ancient path (Howard I like your sutta quote given to me :-) Cheers! ) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-065.html <> kind regards Ken O 28469 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi James, S: Thanks for all your good wishes. I’m having lots of fun with my brother and niece and luckily we’re having wonderful weather which is good for hikes and sea-swims. Lots of laughter and attachment and opportunities for mini-meditations;-). This morning, I took my brother to see Dr Ma (our acupuncturist). My brother has no sense of smell and limited sense of taste following nose problems and surgery. Dr Ma advised him to give up beer, so that was pretty successful;-) Some big hikes planned over the next few days. I have an afternoon off today - I think they’ve decided I’m more trouble than help on the shopping excursions;-) ..... --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: If you don't mind, I want to discuss some of these items now. > This belief you raise of `mini-meditations' during everyday > experience, fueled by panna (wisdom), needs to be addressed (Anyway, > Howard is doing quite well in raising the appropriate questions about > the rupa theories). The above definitions continue to use the > term `neutrality' in regards to equanimity and I don't think that is > correct. .... S:Of course I don’t mind. Delighted! Neutrality in the sense of impartiality. For example, whilst teaching, there can be kindness, friendliness and generosity. When there is even-handedness or equanimity with the kusala states, there’s impartiality or neutrality. If we think about friends here or at work or think about people in Iraq, is there impartiality, detachment and metta or partiality and attachment for some and aversion to others? We can use any words we find more helpful, but the mental states have their own characteristics which can be known directly. ..... J: > So you see Sarah, neutrality is a feeling and the goal of the > Buddhist path is develop the cessation of feeling. .... S:As I discussed before, we shouldn’t confuse the wholesome state of upekkha or equanimity which arises with each kusala citta (wholesome consciousness) with neutral feeling which can arise with wholesome or unwholesme cittas. I wouldn’t describe the Buddhist path as you do. I would say the sutta describes how the eventual eradication of all kilesa (defilements) leads to the final cessation of the khandhas at parinibbana due to the cutting off of the cause for further continuation. ..... J:>This is defined > as `equanimity' and is the absence of feeling (as Nina appropriately > defines it in her book); it cannot be defined as a `neutral' feeling, > as done by the Vism, because that is still a feeling. The Vism has > it wrong I believe. .... S: As I mentioned before, I think you’re confusing equanimity (upekkha or tatramajjhattata) with indifferent or neutral feeling (upekkha vedana) .... J: >Also, it cannot occur during pleasant feelings > because those are also feelings. So, your theory that `Right > Concentration' can occur in the midst of everyday mind states and > occur during various feelings is incorrect. .... S:Vedana or feeling is one of the ‘universal’ mental factors. This means there is a feeling (pleasant, unpleasant or neutral) with every citta (consciousness). Concentration also arises as a ‘universal’ mental factor. This means that concentration and feeling always co-arise. Perhaps I misunderstand you. Thank you for the suttas which point out the importance of dispassion and disenchantment or detachment. Alobha (detachment) is another mental factor which arises with all kusala cittas. ..... > James: You can say that again! For those who have an emotional need > for excessive detail, they may appreciate this type of description. > I don't have that need so I see it as overkill and confusing. .... S:LOL! I must be one of those with these emotionally needy types;-) Actually, I think that these days you have a pretty good open-minded approach and all your careful consideration and questioning and reference to suttas as you gave in this post is very helpful for me. Glad to be ‘All Shook UP’;-) Metta, Happy New Year to you and all members. Sarah p.s I think that others kindly took over the ‘ego’ thread baton for me. And I agree it would be hard for you to find anyone to pass your many batons to, James. Pls take that as a compliment as intended;-) ;-) ========================== 28470 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta, Co info. Hi Nina, Many thanks for all the extra detail you're adding and especially on the key words which is essential imho to understanding these suttas. You also add some extra commentary detail which BB hasn't included which helps a lot. Please add to the discussions and elaborations whenever you have free time (!!). Thanks also for telling me the Tipitaka website with the Abhidhamma Pali texts is back on line. Am I right in thinking we need another 'key' now? It seems different. (I just had a rushed look). Metta, Sarah --- nina van gorkom wrote: > just some more info from the Co. > Key words: > the holy life: brahmacaariya: development of the eightfold Path. > Meditation subject, kammathaana: stands for med. of calm (samatha) and > for > vipassana, satipatthana. > derived materiality (upada rupa): refers here to all material phenomena > of > the body, except the four great elements (earth, etc., see thread with > Larry). <.....> 28471 From: ashkenn2k Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael; > Michael: I probably didn't express myself correctly. My problem is with stating `own' characteristics. As if the characteristic would be something intrinsic to that thing. This is wrong view because it falls into reification. Characteristics are subject to conditionality as well and therefore cannot be intrinsic. In the conditioned world there is absolutely nothing that is not subject to conditons, and if something is subject to conditions it cannot exist by its own power. Words like paramatha and sabhava do not apply in the conditioned world. k: Nothing in this world arise by its own power, or without caused. The other time when I give you an example of fire. Fire does not exist without a cause and the characterisitic of fire being hot does not exist without the fire. Can we deny that the characteristic of fire (real not artificial ones created by special effects) that is hot is the same be it what kind of materials is used to condition it. Can we say that the clinging of food is different from the of clinging of drinks. And without clinging the characterisitc of clinging will not arise just like without fire, the characteristic of fire(hot) will not arise. So can we say that the characteristic of clinging of food is different from the clinging of drinks. Can we also say that without conditions, clinging will arise on its own. Likewise can we say that the characteristic of clinging arise on its own without cliniging. The other day I have quoted, "it is its mere occurrence in accordance with conditions that is called 'a dhamma with its own particular nature' (sabhava-dhamma)". This is the meaning of sabhava and not otherwise. So far I have been very consistent with my answer, now it is your term to prove to me in any kind of example or description or anyway to me how does this characterisitcs that make a dhamma distinct (which is sabhava), is without cause, arise by its own power. Give me a prove to believe in what you say. Kind regards Ken O 28472 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flying the banner (Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders) Hi Christine & All, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, and all, > > Thanks for the quotes. They do seem to be looking at conceit from > the 'bragging about achievements" perspective. Maybe I misunderstood > previously when I thought even talking about personal events and > tragedies was a form of this. I'm not sure how talking about ones > troubles could be called 'self-advertisement' - unless, maybe, > because one is really saying "look at poor me!- I'm the important > one, my suffering is important because ... well, because its ME that > it's happening too!" ..... Exactly!Me Me Me.... in terms of flying the banner, whether it’s the bragging or ‘poor me’ variety, I don’t think there’s much to choose between them;-( Let me add a few examples of the latter: “I’m so poor” “I can’t join the others, I’m feeling so rotten” “I live on my own” or “I don’t have spiritual friends” “I have to take care of my husband, children, mother....” “I have to work to pay the bills” “I don’t have a job.....” ..... C: > Should we never mention problems then? .... The point, I think, is that any of these comments or sentiments can be said or thought with or without mana and flying of the banner. Only panna can know when it is: “That mind which desires the banner is said to be desirous of the banner (i.e. , self-advertisement).” At these moments of finding oneself important, there’s no metta( friendliness) or mudita (sympathetic joy) or gladness in others’ good fortune. In fact, mana is the opposite of metta and we can begin to see why the brahma viharas always have others rather than oneself as object. (And no, others do not directly experience our metta except by way of vipaka cittas if there is seeing or hearing of pleasant rupas conditioned by ‘our’ kusala cittas. Someone in Afghanistand or Iraq cannot benefit from such metta unless it’s from some deed or action which brings them a result such as food and so on. Not from zapped metta;-)) ..... S: >How then does a person obtain > comfort and support? .... Results of good kamma and other conditions. No rules about asking for help or not. My mother has some back trouble and I just suggested to her that her neighbours would prefer to be told and to help bring in the logs for the fire than to have her suffer in silence and need more help later. One can speak out with consideration too;-) There can be mana and other unwholesome states either way, I think. .... C: >Not supposed to need it? Just hope someone > notices or is telepathic? I'd be out of a job! .... ;-) Just develop panna. This is the way to help ourselves and others better and to know what is most useful of all. The kilesa are going to arise repeatedly by conditions anyway. Gradually they can be seen for what they are. ***** In your other post, you wrote: C: > Telling the Story of hurt and unfairness was > just 'flying a flag' drawing attention to oneself, and what about the > present moment? I think they said it more gently than this. :-) Hope > I haven't got this terribly mixed up. ... ..... I don’t think you have it mixed up at all. “Why are the natives, dogs, women, nuns, Iraqis......treated so unfairly?” “Why isn’t the school, hospital, government.......run efficiently?” “Why doesn’t she/he look after the children, spouse, house.......” Raising the banner.....so very, very common and this has helped me consider more. I could write another list of my own examples just from yesterday, such as these with regard to my niece: “I wouldn’t let her snack at any time” “I’d just say that on holiday we’re making an early start....” “I’d have told her to bring a hat and something warm....” “white’s impractical on a holiday like this..” “Too much orange juice isn’t good..” Note: when it comes to mana, the implication may be quite true in that we might be able to run the country better, take better care of the children/dogs and so on. The texts make this quite clear. But, whether or not the implication is correct, the mana is still there ready show our self-importance. Metta and thanks for helping me to consider more. Happy New Year! Sarah ====== 28473 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:17am Subject: Re: vitakka and vicára Dear Jeff, What a good question that you made. Yes this matter need to be clarified. That translation as thoughts are not enough for Vitakka and Vicara. But when Cetasikas are studied in detail this matter will become clear. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@a... wrote: > A critic of the translation of the Pali terms 'vitakka' and 'vicára' > > I have been studying the Pali canon in English translation as a means of > providing canonical support for my subjective contemplative experiences. Through > this study I have come across a few key areas that seem like errors in > translation. The Pali terms 'vitakka' and 'vicára' are two of those words that seem > to be incorrectly translated. I have appended to this post a copy of a > definition for the Pali words 'vitakka' and 'vicára' from NYANATILOKA's, Manual of > Buddhist Terms and Doctrines. > > There you will find NYANATILOKA translates 'vitakka' and 'vicára' as > "thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and sustained thought')." > I do not believe the historic Buddha was intending that one arrive at jhana > through an intellectual activity, but one of subjective investigation through > meditation, therefore not as a process of thinking and reasoning. > > I believe it must be an erroneous translation of the Pali words > "vitakka-vicára" to say that through an intellectual pursuit, such as "applied and > sustained thought" the Buddha said one can arrive at jhana. On the Jhana Support > Group, we have found no evidence to support a belief that "intellectual > investigation," or "applied and sustained thought," or "thought- conception and > discursive thinking" will ever lead anywhere other than ignorance delusion and doubt > (dukkha). > > I believe vitakka and vicára, if they lead to jhana, must be better > translated as 'concentration' in which one "turns and returns one's mind," or "applies > and reapplies" one's attention to one's meditation object. It is however > possible that the Pali language might be inadequate to make the distinction > between concentration and discursive thinking. > > Thank-you very much for your time. If you care to discuss this further, > then please respond to me either here, or directly off-list, or on the Jhana > Support Group. > > Kindest regards, > > Jeff Brooks > > Jhana Support Group > A support group for ecstatic contemplatives > website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ > Subscribe: Jhanas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > From the Buddhist Dictionary > Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, > by NYANATILOKA > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/vitakka_vicaara.htm > > vitakka-vicára > > 'thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and sustained > thought') are verbal functions (vací-sankhára: s. sankhára) of the mind, the > so-called 'inner speech ('parole interieure'). They are constituents of the 1st > absorption (s. jhána), but absent in the higher absorptions. > > (1) "Thought-conception (vitakka) is the laying hold of a thought, giving it > attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the consciousness to the > object. > > (2) "Discursive thinking (vicára) is the roaming about and moving to and fro > of the mind.... It manifests itself as continued activity of mind" (Vis.M. IV). > > (1) is compared with the striking against a bell, (2) with its resounding; > (1) with the seizing of a pot, (2) with wiping it. (Cf. Vis . IV.). 28474 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:01am Subject: Vitakka And Vicara Dear Dhamma Friends, In Jhana practice or Vipassana practice, Vitakka and Vicara play a major role as good Cetasikas. Both Vitakka and Vicara are Cetasikas. They are ultimate realities. They have their own essence. Their conventional translations so far has not been enough for full understanding for those who are not engaged yet in the practice of Jhana or Vipassana. Both Vitakka and Vicara in isolation are not thought but they are both mental factors or mental conditioners or mind conditioners. Presence or absence of them makes Citta totally different. They are not thought. They are not simply thought. 1. Vitakka Vitakka works as an effort-producer but not as an effort-sustainer. Effort-sustension is the function of Viriya. Vitakka delibrately put the mind ( Citta and other Cetasikas along with himself ) on to the object or Arammana. Let's assume there is a table and a ball. The table is object or Arammana. The ball is the mind. The ball is off the table . Vitakka puts the ball on to the table so that the ball is being on the table. So the ball is in touch with the table. That finishes. Another man picks up another ball and puts it on to the table so that the ball is being on the table. Another man is another Vitakka. Another ball is another Citta or mind ( Cetasikas are included ). Table may be the same table or another table depending on the situations. The man who puts the ball on to the table is Vitakka. The ball is Citta. The table is object or Arammana. Vitakka delibrately takes the object. It is translated as initial application. Application means apply to the object. Here ' initial ' may be confusing. Another example is three men on a boat. At the front sits a chief rower. At the back sits a chief steerer. In between sits the organizer or the leader. The rower makes an effort to row to move the boat. He is Vitakka. He applies his effort to the object. As Vitakka is rowing the boat will be moving but if there is no control the boat may reach anywhere aimlessly. The middle man is urging the Vitakka to row to move the boat. He is Cetana Cetasika. He is the main committer of all actions and Cetana is sometimes assumed as Sankhara. At the back sits a steerer. He is Manasikara Cetasika. He makes a proper direction. If he directs to the south, the boat will move to the south however hard Vitakka is rowing. If he directs to the north, the boat will move to the north. ' Yoniso Manasikara ' means making attention in a proper way or directing to the proper way. 2. Vicara Vicara is another Cetasika. The Buddha preached these two as separate Dhamma as they each have their own characteristic. Vicara is a reality. It is a Cetasika. It has the characteristic that is totally different from Vitakka. A man picks up a ball and puts it on to a table as above example. Another man rolls the ball about and around on the table so that the ball is not off the table and at the same time the ball touches all the surface of the table. Another man picks up another ball and puts it on to the same table or on to another table depending on the context. Another man( another Vicara ) rolls the ball picked by the first man ( Vitakka ) about and around on the table so that the ball is not off the table and at the same time that ball touches all the surface of the table. Vicara sustains Citta in contact with the object. Vicara reviews the object or Arammana. Vicara does not depart from the object. It is not off the object. This post is for those whon are practising Jhana but it will also be useful for Vipassana meditators. ' Vitakka' and ' Vicara ' is posted at 'dhammastudygroup' by Jeff Brooks who is the owner of Jhana Support Group ( Jhanas Yahoo Group ). I do hope further adding or discussion on this matter from other members and non-members. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing JourneyToNibbana Yahoo Group htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@g... 28475 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:17am Subject: Re:_[dsg]_vitakka_and_vicára Hi Larry & Jeff, You made some good comments. If you have time, I think you'd also find it useful to read more about these mental factors from Nina's book http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas10.html Metta, Sarah p.s I see Htoo has also posted but haven't opened his yet. 28476 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:36am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: Is it your opinion that the patimokkha is an outline of rules that > constitute the "Middle Way"? Or constitute a part of the "Middle Way"? Dan Yes and yes. Metta, James 28477 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:07am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi Ken, Ken: As I read the sutta you have quoted, it is perfectly consistent with the momentary nature of conditioned reality. James: People often read what they want to read. The sutta I quoted didn't even mention anything about the `momentary nature of conditioned reality', it described the Eightfold Path. Do you see absolutely everything through `Abhidhamma Shaded' glasses? ;-) Ken: In the normal, conventional sense of the word, are any mental qualities regarded as 'fabricated?' I think you'll find that, conventionally speaking, only material things are fabricated (constructed, made to actually exist). James: No, the Eightfold Path is also fabricated, made to exist. The Buddha said so and it is his teaching. Ken: However, in the reality taught by the Buddha, mental phenomena are just as real as material phenomena. Each nama and rupa has its own, unique essence which has been fabricated by the conditioning (fabricating), actions of other namas and rupas. James: No, this is not a description for reality taught by the Buddha. The Buddha didn't teach the theory of namas and rupas, he taught dependent origination. In dependent origination all dhammas (phenomena) are transient and void of self…and the question of if they `exist' doesn't apply. Ken: Agreed, but it is not contended that nama and rupa arise spontaneously. They arise dependent on conditions and they cease dependent on conditions. The only exception - - nibbana -- doesn't arise or cease at all. James: I don't subscribe to this philosophy. Not only that, I was simply writing about the Eightfold Path and you respond with theories of namas, rupas, and nibbana. Can't you take those glasses off? ;-) Ken: The wholesome ones do: Saddha (confidence), is a mental phenomenon that arises with all wholesome consciousness. James: Again, I don't subscribe to this philosophy. To me, this is gibberish with no real meaning whatsoever. Ken: Strictly speaking, it is the Dhamma that is a 'description' of mind states, (and physical states). It includes a description of the Noble Eightfold Path as a series of (supramundane) conscious moments leading to the final cessation of suffering. James: I don't think so. The Dhamma is a description of a path of practice, specifically the Eightfold Path, and the practitioner will have innumerable consciousness moments, through out the period of practice, which will be both mundane and supramundane. Ken: I would be interested to know how many Buddhist schools officially share your view. Don't they all have an Abhidhamma that specifies the momentary, impersonal namas and rupas of reality? James: Frankly, I don't care how many Buddhist schools have an Abhidhamma. I am only interested in what the Buddha himself taught. Anything that veers too far from what he taught, I am not interested in as a personal belief for myself; however, I don't mind learning such thought as a subject of academic inquiry. Not only that, I thought we were discussing the Eightfold Path? Does everything have to go back to the Abhidhamma? Do you recognize how much this philosophy controls your thought processes? Kind regards, Ken H Metta, James 28478 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:22am Subject: anapanasati 9 c anapanasati 9 c Ven. Soma left out a passage which I believe is essential for understanding the goal of anapanasati. It is also a passage translated in the Vis. VIII, 155: This is almost the same as my translation that follows (I saw it later on): apica, yasmaa ida.m kaayaanupassanaaya muddhabhuuta.m sabbabuddhapaccekabuddhabuddhasaavakaana.m visesaadhigama-di.t.thadhammasukhavihaarapada.t.thaana.m aanaapaanassatikamma.t.thaana.m N: And thus also, with regard to the meditation subject of anapanasati which has become the topmost of Body Contemplation, being the proximate cause for abiding in ease here, now (di.t.thadhammasukhavihaara, fruition attainment) for all Buddhas, Silent Buddhas and disciples of the Buddha, itthipurisahatthiassaadisaddasamaakula.m gaamanta.m apariccajitvaa na sukara.m sampaadetu.m, saddaka.n.takattaa jhaanassa. N: this is not easy to undertake when one has not abandoned the border of the village, full of sounds of women, men, elephants, horses etc. agaamake pana ara~n~ne sukara.m yogaavacarena ida.m kamma.t.thaana.m pariggahetvaa aanaapaanacatutthajjhaana.m nibbattetvaa tadeva jhaana.m paadaka.m katvaa sa"nkhaare sammasitvaa aggaphala.m arahatta.m paapu.nitu.m. N: If the meditator does not live in a village but in the forest, it is easy for him, after he has mastered this meditation subject, attained the fourth jhana of anapana sati, and made this jhana the foundation and has thoroughly comprehended conditioned dhammas (sankhare), to fulfill the highets frutuion, the fruition of arahatship; tasmaassa anuruupasenaasana.m dassento bhagavaa ``ara~n~nagato vaa''tiaadimaaha. N: Therefore the Blessed One, pointing out the dwelling suitable for that, said, gone to the forest etc. (As is) Remarks: We see here that this meditation subject is for those who can attain jhana and develop insight even to arahatship. English: And thus also, with regard to the meditation subject of anapanasati which has become the topmost of Body Contemplation, being the proximate cause for abiding in ease here, now (di.t.thadhammasukhavihaara, fruition attainment) for all Buddhas, Silent Buddhas and disciples of the Buddha, N: this is not easy to undertake when one has not abandoned the border of the village, full of sounds of women, men, elephants, horses etc. If the meditator does not live in a village but in the forest, it is easy for him, after he has mastered this meditation subject, attained the fourth jhana of anapana sati, and made this jhana the foundation and has thoroughly comprehended conditioned dhammas (sankhare), to fulfill the highets frutuion, the fruition of arahatship; Therefore the Blessed One, pointing out the dwelling suitable for that, said, gone to the forest etc. (As is) Remarks: We see here that this meditation subject is for those who can attain jhana and develop insight even to arahatship. The End. Nina 28479 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] cetasikas which produce rupas Dear Jon, I enjoyed your dialogue with Larry. This point, below, conditioned me to reflect more and I pulled out some texts. Really enjoying this. op 30-12-2003 14:10 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Jon: The co-arising cetasikas will condition the mental feeling in > some manner, but not the rupas. Rupas are conditioned by > consciousness (citta), whereas the roots of greed, hatred and > delusion are mental factors (cetasikas) arising with consciousness. > As far as I know, cetasikas are not given as conditioning factors for > rupas. N: Nyanaponika Abh. Studies, Appendix 3, the Factors of Absorption. He deals with jhanafactors, and jhana-condition taken also in a wider sense (also akusala), not just absorption in samatha. They have an intensifying influence on the other accompaying cetasikas and the simultaneous corporeal phenomena.< It is their presence that enables a state of consciousness to produce corporeal phenomena> (Co and subco to Khandha Vibhanga). I am inclined to think that citta and cetasika are so closely associated that they cooperate in producing rupas. Those ministers are ever active. I looked at U Narada, Conditional Relations: p. 26: except 14 types of citta (five pairs of sense-cognitions and 4 arupa jhana vipaka-cittas, rebirth-consciousness in the five khandha planes and death-consciousness of arahat), the other citttas can produce rupa. p. 65, jhana-condition: without it one cannot: <1. shoot birds and animals, 2, what and whose form it is, 3. to take one straight step forward correctly, for, if at the beginning the foot was pointed eastwards, it would point southwards in the middle and westwards at the end of the step. Or else, while taking the step forward, the mind would take another object and forget about the step altogether.4. To pronounce one word correctly. This shows how swiftly the mind is distracted and changed...> What pointed reminders for everyday life, even when walking or pronouncing words!!! Nina. 28480 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty,conditions. Hi Howard, thank you (and also Larry!) for your good questions. I may not react to all of them, we have to spend time with my father, stimulating him with music. Here it goes. op 30-12-2003 07:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> N: Kamma is past kamma and is since long fallen away. But life-faculty >> maintains the other rupas in the group originated from kamma. U Narada: > does not relate by the force of production>, thus, it is not the same as the >> way the factors of nutrition, heat and citta produce the other rupas in >> their respective groups. These rupas produced by them are compared to a >> child with the mother alive, > maintained by physical life-faculty, is compared to the motherless child >> maintained by a wet-nurse.> >> > ============================ H: I understand this to be saying that the kammic cause is long gone, and > so the life force serves in its stead to maintain the kamma-produced rupas. > The following questions occur to me then: > 1) What maintains the life force? N: very good. Vis. text: . And Tiika: It does not need another factor that supports it, it arises together with the rupas to be sustained and performs its function, not at the first moment, but just after. H: 2) The factors of nutrition, heat, and citta that produce other rupas > may not be *long* gone, but they are gone. Gone is gone - length of time is > irrelevant. What serves in the stead of the nutrition, heat, and citta to > maintain these other rupas? N: First more on physical life-faculty. I did not quote all from U.Narada but now I must : p. 64: As we saw, does not relate by the force of production> It is related to the conascent rupas . Explanation: the duration of rupa, compared to the duration of citta, lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, and, when taken into account the three phases of citta (arising, presence and cessation), 51 sub-moments. It performs its function of maintenance only after the first moment, thus when the conascent rupas have just arisen, and it itself has just arisen together with them. We cannot imagine this, think of the shortness of the moment. U Narada: Conditioning factors can be prenascent, conascent and post-nascent to the dhammas they condition. As we saw, ...< it is not the same as the >> way the factors of nutrition, heat and citta produce the other rupas in >> their respective groups.> This is intricate. See post to Jon about citta. Citta produces rupa at its arising moment. Nutrition and heat do not produce at the moment of their arising, but after that. See below, rupa is then too weak. There is no need for them to have a wet nurse, the producing factors are in fact not gone, they are still present. Nutrition produces and maintains. Factors can function as several types of condition at the same time, such as conascence-condition which is a large group encompassing several types of conditions. Thus, we also have conascence faculty-condition, but this goes for other faculties (but sex-faculty is not faculty-condition, as said before). > 3) More generally, what more is needed for "maintenance" than conditionality? N: See above, three ways of operation of condition. maintenance is one of them. It itself is a condition. op 30-12-2003 07:11 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: You wrote later on: H: I think I have just partly answered this question for myself. I > remember that in Abhidhamma, multiple rupas can co-exist (though at most one > of them > as object of a citta), so the nutrition and heat might not be gone, but could > co-exist with the rupas they produce, and thus no life-force maintenance is > needed. N: yes. H: I suppose that when a prior citta is the cause, then that is when the > namic version of life force comes into play. Would this be the Abhidhammic > response to my question (2)? N: there is more to it. You say: when a prior citta is the cause, but you mean the cause for rupas? Rupa is weak at its first moment and cannot be a condition. For citta, it is the opposite: citta is strong at its first moment and is then able to produce rupas. The namic version of life force is another matter I keep for next time. As Sarah reminds me: we have to think of the purpose of studying details. To conclude: we usually speak too casually about impermanence or shortness of the moment. When learning about fiftyone sub-moments of duration of rupa we can consider how extremely short it must be. Citta is extremely fast and evenso fiftyone sub-moments are extremely fast. We are taught a lesson here, and impermanence may become more meaningful. Learning more about conditions in detail shows evermore that empty phenomena are rolling on. Also the sutta you quoted don't long for the future. > They survive on the present.> will considerably gain in meaning. Nina. 28481 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] life maintenance Hi Larry, op 31-12-2003 04:49 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Please correct the following. Life only arises with kamma produced rupa. N; yes, but I like to precizise: life-faculty. L: That is: organic matter (the 8 inseparables, basically food), the 5 > sensitivities, male and female faculties, and the heart base. These are > what life maintains. N: the 8 inseparables, basically food, why basically food? I do not see it like that. And also, those eight are incorporated in a nonad, with life-faculty. We better look at nonads, decads, etc. Kamma does not produce pure octads. But I think you mention this at the end. L: However, not all organic matter is kamma produced. > It could be produced by temperature, consciousness, or nutriment. N: organic matter, shall we say: rupas of the body? I stumble over organic, it may cause confusion. What you say is correct. L: Nutriment (food) is the same as organic matter; so nutriment can produce > itself. One food can become another food, as with excrement. N: We should not confuse morsel like food, external food that is taken with that extremely tiny rupa of nutritive essence. When, what we say in conventional language, morsel like food is taken, and it is absorbed in the body, there is a rupa, nutrition or nutritive essence, that is a factor producing other rupas arising in a group. And then, the nutrition present in such a unit can produce in its turn other units with eight rupas. That is why we could be without food for a week. But there are many things I do not understand yet in depth. A good point to discuss in Bgk. The element of heat makes food mature, cooks it, it becomes excrement as we say in conventional language. But we cannot say this is another food produced by food. It is a whole situation, but we know that the Great Elements perform their functions. L: sensitivities, sex faculties, life faculty, and heart base are not > organic, but they are derived from the 4 great essentials (earth, water, > fire, and air). Life doesn't maintain matter produced by temperature, > consciousness, or nutriment. N: correct, except the word organic. I would rather speak about elements. Nina. P.S. some Pali puzzle, I have to look again and may make dots. Nobody in the world to help me. Sorry for the delay. 28482 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg]details, details! Dear James, I take all your remarks in the right sense!!! Also about mini-meditations!!! I want to tell you something. I appreciate your good works as to Devasamyutta, I told Victor about your work, and he said to me that he reads and follows those. People outside still seem to read our messages. Nina. op 30-12-2003 12:55 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > James: You can say that again! For those who have an emotional need > for excessive detail, they may appreciate this type of description. > I don't have that need so I see it as overkill and confusing. 28483 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:29am Subject: old year, new year. Dear All, May all beings be happy, whether it is an old year or a new year. May Panna grow and flourish. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 28484 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:53am Subject: Re: approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi Sarah, Sarah: Thanks for all your good wishes. I'm having lots of fun with my brother and niece and luckily we're having wonderful weather which is good for hikes and sea-swims. Lots of laughter and attachment and opportunities for mini-meditations;-). This morning, I took my brother to see Dr Ma (our acupuncturist). My brother has no sense of smell and limited sense of taste following nose problems and surgery. Dr Ma advised him to give up beer, so that was pretty successful;-) James: There is no guarantee he will. If someone was poking needles into me, I would want to humor that person as much as possible! ;-)) Sarah: Some big hikes planned over the next few days. I have an afternoon off today - I think they've decided I'm more trouble than help on the shopping excursions;-) James: From reading about all of your `know-it-all' statements you described to Christine, you probably got on their nerves. ;-) Sarah: Of course I don't mind. Delighted! Neutrality in the sense of impartiality. For example, whilst teaching, there can be kindness, friendliness and generosity. When there is even-handedness or equanimity with the kusala states, there's impartiality or neutrality. If we think about friends here or at work or think about people in Iraq, is there impartiality, detachment and metta or partiality and attachment for some and aversion to others? We can use any words we find more helpful, but the mental states have their own characteristics which can be known directly. James: Well, here we are mixing up terms. I don't see `neutrality' and `impartiality' as being the same thing. Neutrality has the connotation of not caring about a particular stimulus, as deeming it unimportant. Impartiality has the connotation of recognizing a particular stimulus but being unbiased (non-craving) toward it; and is much closer to equanimity. From dictionary.com: Neutrality \Neu*tral"i*ty\, n. [Cf. F. neutralit['e].] 1. The state or quality of being neutral; the condition of being unengaged in contests between others; state of taking no part on either side; indifference. Impartiality \Im*par`ti*al"i*ty\, n. [Cf. F. impartialit['e].] The quality of being impartial; freedom from bias or favoritism; equitableness; fairness; as, impartiality of judgment, of treatment, etc. If you see equanimity as being impartiality, we don't have any argument. The majority of the rest of this post is moot. Sarah: LOL! I must be one of those with these emotionally needy types;-) Actually, I think that these days you have a pretty good open-minded approach and all your careful consideration and questioning and reference to suttas as you gave in this post is very helpful for me. Glad to be `All Shook UP';-) James: I don't think that you are more `emotionally needy' than anyone else. LOL! Until we become enlightened, we all have certain emotional needs. Mine are not the same as yours; that was all I was stating. My approach in this group is better these days because I have learned to better differentiate the emotional impressions I get from others and my own. Didn't really intend to `Shake You Up'! LOL! Metta, Happy New Year to you and all members. Sarah Metta, and Happy New Years to you too and to everyone. I am going to the opera for New Years! It should be fun (and much cheaper in Cairo!;-). p.s I think that others kindly took over the `ego' thread baton for me. And I agree it would be hard for you to find anyone to pass your many batons to, James. Pls take that as a compliment as intended;-) ;- ) James: I don't understand what you mean but I will take it as a compliment. Thank you. 28485 From: Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi, Kom (and Ken O) and all - I think the sense-door and mind-door processes are very interesting - they constitute a very pretty scheme which may be quite true. It's a part of Theravadin commentarial theory that I find very appealing - way more than such things as gender faculties and life faculty, for example, which appear in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. My likes and dislikes aside, however, does anyone have any suspicion as to why the Buddha never taught about the sense-door and mind-door processes? (It is my understanding that it does not appear anywhere in the Tipitaka, but I stand to be corrected.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/31/03 1:47:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, komb@s... writes: > > Hi Ken O, > > I think a clarification of the dhamma taught by anybody is a fantastic idea. > Because the Buddha is a samma-sambuddha, he taught us the realities that he > had penetrated by panna, the teachings (reflecting the truths) do not > conflict. I was reminded that if we think the teachings conflict, either we > don't understand it yet, or whoever is teaching it is not teaching what the > Buddha had taught. > > >My understanding is that Vipaka citta are kamma produced hence there > >is no way we can decide it is kusala or aksuala for its process of 17 > >moments of Vipaka cittas. One can only make a difference in the mind > >door, where whereby only kusala citta or akusala cittas could arise > >to affect the latent tendecies and accumulations for future vipaka > >cittas. This means Chapter 5 is not correct bc vipaka cittas are > >vithi citta but not javana-vithi-citta and they cannot accumulate > >latent tendecies as explain in Chapter 3. > > > > Do you know that the sense door process comprises of vipaka, kiriya, and > kusala/akusala? The sense door process is not purely vipaka, it has: > > 1) Avajjana (1 moment - kiriya) > 2) Vinanana (1 moment - vipaka) > 3) Sampatichanna (1 moment - vipaka) > 4) Santirana (1 moment - vipaka) > 5) Votappana (1 moment - kiriya) > 6) Javana (7 moments, kusala or akusala in non-arahats) > 7) Tatalampana (2 moments - vipaka) > > Although undiscernable by us, the kusala/akusala vipaka cittas are > differentiated by the Abhidhamma. There are 5 possible pairs of the sense > door vipaka (in position 2 above): one set kusala vipaka, and the other > akusala vipaka. I think they can be differentiated by their > characteristics, with highly refined panna. > > What she meant about the accumulation in the sense door is at position 6 > (javana), where tendencies are accumulated, even in the sense door. > > In the mind door, the process is less complicated (even if it is way more > prevalent than the sense doors) > > 1) Avajjana (1 moment - kiriya) > 2) Javana (7 moments, kusala or akusala in non-arahats) > 3) Tatalampanna (2 moments - vipaka) > > The tendencies are accumulated only in the position 2 here as well. > > kom > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28486 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:13am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] So, how does patimokkha differ from Asceticism Lite? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Dan, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > wrote: > Is it your opinion that the patimokkha is an outline of rules > that > > constitute the "Middle Way"? Or constitute a part of the "Middle > Way"? > > Dan > > Yes and yes. > > Metta, James 28487 From: Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:50am Subject: Existence [Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Intro Notes)] Hi, James (and Ken, and all) - In a message dated 12/31/03 9:12:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Ken: However, in the reality taught by the Buddha, mental phenomena > are just as real as material phenomena. Each nama and rupa has its > own, unique essence which has been fabricated by the conditioning > (fabricating), actions of other namas and rupas. > > James: No, this is not a description for reality taught by the > Buddha. The Buddha didn't teach the theory of namas and rupas, he > taught dependent origination. In dependent origination all dhammas > (phenomena) are transient and void of self…and the question of if > they `exist' doesn't apply. > ============================= I rather like the following "existence" terminology (leaving nibbana out of consideration for the moment): 1) Does not exist: Ain't no such thing, no how, no way! 2) Exists conventionally only: Is the intended but only so-to-speak existing referent of a well grounded concept, i.e. a concept subsuming many actually existent phenomena that are interrelated in a coherent pattern. 3) Exists dependently: Is a directly observable phenomenon that arises in dependence on conditions. This is the only form of existence that is not imagined, merely conventional, or metaphorical. 4) Exists independently: See (1) As far as nibbana is concerned, it is an absence, and talk of the "existence" of an absence is problematical. But to the extent that such talk is allowed, nibbana is the only unconditioned, and permanent existent. I understand nibbana to be the absence of "things," the absence of independent, separate, self-existent entities, and this makes nibbana an ultimate emptiness. I also realize, however, that this definition of nibbana, as is the case with any definition of nibbana, must be radically inadequate. I view the world of "things" as being what exists but misperceived due to the three poisons. To see reality as it actually is, with ignorance, craving, and aversion held in abeyance - or, eventually, fully uprooted, is to get a glimpse of nibbana. And each glimpse of nibbana leads ever closer to complete liberation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28488 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:04am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Great comments, Herman. H: "The Vinaya is thus an indispensible facet and foundation of all the Buddha's teachings, inseparable from the Dhamma, and worthy of study by all followers -- lay and ordained, alike." [Access to Insight] H: "But its greatest value, perhaps, lies in its power to inspire the layperson to consider the extraordinary possibilities offered by a life of true renunciation, lived in harmony with the Dhamma." [Access to Insight] H: If understanding the state of mind when things are done does not lead to practical change, I'd say there has been no understanding. --> This is well put. Part of the fruit of understanding is that there is a decrease in attachment (alobha and adosa) and an increase in the strength of scruples (hiri and ottappa). That leads to practical change with certainty. I'd agree, then, that "practical change" can be used to gauge progress in understanding: Is the understanding just at the level of Pali words and recitation of doctrinal formulas (in which case it would be practically useless)? In the Brahmajala sutta, Buddha recites a long list (several pages long!) of debased behaviors that he is praised for not engaging in (e.g. taking what is not given, sexual intercourse, slander, sleeping with a quilt stuffed with cotton, earn a living by computation or by administering medicines to cure bodily diseases): "These, bhikkhus, are those trifling and insignificant matters, those minor details of mere moral virtue, that a worldling would refer to when speaking in praise of the Tathagata." These are some of the external, practical results of a highly developed understanding. Purified action comes through deep understanding, but following lists of rules does not lead to understanding. What does Buddha say is really praiseworthy? "There are, bhikkhus, other dhammas, deep, difficult to see, difficult to understand, peaceful and sublime, beyond the sphere of reasoning, subtle, comprehensible only to the wise, which the Tathagata, having realized for himself with direct knowledge, propounds to others; and it is concerning these that those who would rightly praise the Tathagata in accordance with reality would speak. And what are these dhammas?" The remaining 25 or so pages in the sutta explain that "these dhammas" are, basically, "the web of views" that Buddha has freed himself from. As release from the web of views is gradually won, the debased behavior gradually recedes. By contrast, stricter and stricter adherence to a set of rules (whether extreme asceticism, patimokkha, or hedonism's simple law of "do what feels good at the moment") does not lead to release from the web of views. I wish you all the best in the New year! Dan 28489 From: Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty,conditions. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/31/03 9:26:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > thank you (and also Larry!) for your good questions. I may not react to all > of them, we have to spend time with my father, stimulating him with music. > Here it goes. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Thank you, Nina, for your detailed reply. I hope all goes well with your father. I, of course, don't know what is involved, but this reminds me of the case of someone my wife and I know who sustained severe head trauma a number of years ago resulting in a coma that lasted for many, many weeks. Her husband, as devoted as one could be, played music for her, talked to her, and obtained innumerable vials of fragrances of all sorts to provide olfactory stimulation. His efforts brought her out of the coma, and his continued efforts for years after brought her back to a relatively normal life. Whatever the circumstances of your father may be, I commend you on providing sensory stimulation, and I wish you the very best with this. With metta, Howard > op 30-12-2003 07:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >>N: Kamma is past kamma and is since long fallen away. But life-faculty > >>maintains the other rupas in the group originated from kamma. U Narada: < > It > >>does not relate by the force of production>, thus, it is not the same as > the > >>way the factors of nutrition, heat and citta produce the other rupas in > >>their respective groups. These rupas produced by them are compared to a > >>child with the mother alive, >>maintained by physical life-faculty, is compared to the motherless child > >>maintained by a wet-nurse.> > >> > >============================ > H: I understand this to be saying that the kammic cause is long gone, and > >so the life force serves in its stead to maintain the kamma-produced rupas. > >The following questions occur to me then: > >1) What maintains the life force? > N: very good. Vis. text: occurs itself only through its connexion with the states that occur, > like a pilot>. And Tiika: establishment, > it occurs itself and so on (only through its connexion with the states that > occur).> > It does not need ... > H: I think I have just partly answered this question for myself. I > >remember that in Abhidhamma, multiple rupas can co-exist (though at most > one > >of them > >as object of a citta), so the nutrition and heat might not be gone, but > could > >co-exist with the rupas they produce, and thus no life-force maintenance is > >needed. > N: yes. > H: I suppose that when a prior citta is the cause, then that is when the > >namic version of life force comes into play. Would this be the Abhidhammic > >response to my question (2)? > N: there is more to it. You say: when a prior citta is the cause, but you > mean the cause for rupas? Rupa is weak at its first moment and cannot be a > condition. For citta, it is the opposite: citta is strong at its first > moment and is then able to produce rupas. The namic version of life force is > another matter I keep for next time. > As Sarah reminds me: we have to think of the purpose of studying details. To > conclude: we usually speak too casually about impermanence or shortness of > the moment. When learning about fiftyone sub-moments of duration of rupa we > can consider how extremely short it must be. Citta is extremely fast and > evenso fiftyone sub-moments are extremely fast. We are taught a lesson here, > and impermanence may become more meaningful. Learning more about conditions > in detail shows evermore that empty phenomena are rolling on. Also the sutta > you quoted > > don't long for the future. > >They survive on the present.> > will considerably gain in meaning. > Nina. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28490 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Ken] Hi Ken, The "Middle Way" is Right understanding, Right effort, Right speech, etc. It is not the rule, that makes 8fp "middle", it is the "Right." "Rightness" comes from Understanding, not from brute force following of a rule or list of rules. When the understanding is truly there, the behavior is bound to be right. You quote Vism: "Likewise the reason for the states of stream entry; and once-returner is shown by virtue. For the stream returner is called 'perfected in the kinds of virtue'." I ask whether that stream-entry comes about through strict adherence to rules of virtue, or does the virtue develop naturally as a fruit of understanding? The "Middle Way" is the shifting of the approach from 'adherence-to-rules-and-rituals leads to wisdom' to 'wisdom leads to adherence-to-rules-and-rituals'. [The "Middle Way" also avoids the approach of 'abolition-of-rules leads to fulfillment' and replaces it with 'fulfillment leads to irrelevance-of-rules (because they are followed perfectly)'.] You go on to say: "One of the three abstinences, Right Action falls inside the Vinaya hence we cannot say Vinaya is not part of the middle way." --> Dan: The Patimokkha is more than "Right Action". It is a list of rules that, regardless of their understanding, bhikkhus are expected to follow for the benefit of the sangha, for the benefit of the community at large, and for the preservation of the Dhamma. These mundane expectations are not part of the Middle Way because there is no "Right" prefixed to any of the rules or to the list of rules as a whole. You continue: "Likewise if we say Vinaya is not part of the Middle way so does Abdhidhamma bc they are part of three Baskets. If Vinaya is not impt to the middle path, Buddha will might as well say one noble footpath (that is right understanding) and why bother saying the next seven." --> Dan: Vinaya and "Middle Way" overlap tremendously, but they are not the same and neither is contained in the other. Dan 28491 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Kom (and Ken O) and all - > > I think the sense-door and mind-door processes are very interesting - > they constitute a very pretty scheme which may be quite true. It's a part of > Theravadin commentarial theory that I find very appealing - way more than such > things as gender faculties and life faculty, for example, which appear in the > Abhidhamma Pitaka. My likes and dislikes aside, however, does anyone have any > suspicion as to why the Buddha never taught about the sense-door and mind-door > processes? (It is my understanding that it does not appear anywhere in the > Tipitaka, but I stand to be corrected.) > > ========= Dear Howard. From the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: The Buddha said: ""I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this world. What, monks, is the origin of beings? On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling arises; through feeling desire arises; through desire attachment ..." It is truly what the Buddha taught. Robertk 28492 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:49am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello KenO, KenO: it is its mere occurrence in accordance with conditions that is called 'a dhamma with its own particular nature' (sabhava-dhamma) Michael: Ken, just reflect about what you wrote. First you say that dhammas arise according to conditions which is fine with me, but then you go on to say that a dhamma also has a ‘particular nature’. Now, either you are thinking about something else and using the words incorrectly or you simply don’t realize the absurdity of what you are saying. Particular nature means something that only that dhamma possesses which is distinct from anything else. Would you agree with this interpretation? Well this is the same as saying it has an essence. And if something has an essence it is impossible that it can be affected by conditions. Metta Michael 28493 From: Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi, Robert - In a message dated 12/31/03 11:52:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard. > From the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: > The Buddha said: ""I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated > birth and > passing away of beings in this world. What, monks, is the origin of > beings? > On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness > arises. > Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact, > feeling > arises; through feeling desire arises; through desire attachment ..." > > It is truly what the Buddha taught. > Robertk > > ========================== That is a *far* cry from what I mean by the theory of the sense-door and mind-door processes. I'm talking about all the bhavanga cittas, and javana cittas, and registration cittas etc, etc. (Please see the postscript below.) Certainly I'm not questioning the Buddha's teaching of dependent origination or conditionality in general! With metta, Howard P.S. Robert, I'm addressing the following: The Thought Process 1 Atita Bhavanga (Past Bhavanga) 2 Bhavanga Calana (Vibrating Bhavanga) 3 Bhavanga Upaccheda (Arrest Bhavanga) 4 Avajjana (Sense-door consciousness) 5 Panca Viññana (Sense consciousness) 6 Sampaticchana (Receiving consciousness) 7 Santirana (Investigating consciousness) 8 Votthapana (Determining consciousness) 9,10,11,12,13,14,15 JAVANA 16,17 Tadalambana Registering consciousness) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28494 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Ken O and all, Ken, I would suggest the following passage from the discourse "Now, again, lady, what is the noble eightfold path?" "This is the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." "Is the noble eightfold path fabricated or unfabricated?" "The noble eightfold path is fabricated." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn044.html Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's exposition can be helpful: Passage §67 deals with the second criticism -- that desire, etc., are antithetical to the goal -- by showing that these qualities are necessary for anyone who pursues a path, but are automatically abandoned on reaching the goal at the path's end. The image of the path is important here, for it carries important implications. First, the path is not the goal; it is simply the way there, just as the road to the Grand Canyon should not be confused with the Grand Canyon itself. Even though many stretches of the road bear no resemblance to the Grand Canyon, that does not mean that the road does not lead there. Secondly, the path of practice does not cause the goal, it simply leads there, just as neither the road to the Grand Canyon nor the act of walking to the Grand Canyon can cause the Grand Canyon to be. The goal at the end of the Buddhist path is unfabricated, and therefore no amount of desire or effort can bring it into being. Nevertheless, the path to the goal is a fabricated process [§105], and in that process desire, effort, intent, and discrimination all have an important role to play, just as the effort of walking plays a role in arriving at the Grand Canyon. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/2d.html Peace, Victor PS. I would recommend Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's The Wings to Awakening: An Anthology from the Pali Canon http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/index.html To obtain a free printed copy of this book, write to: Dhamma Dana Publications c/o Barre Center For Buddhist Studies 149 Lockwood Road Barre, MA 01005 USA --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Dan and James > > The 8NP is not fabricated, it already exist, an ancient path (Howard > I like your sutta quote given to me :-) Cheers! ) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-065.html > < Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold > path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right > livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. > That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly > Self-awakened Ones of former times. I followed that path.>> > > > kind regards > Ken O 28495 From: Andrew Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:42pm Subject: A Single Excellent Night - and Year Dear DSG Cast & Crew I wish you all a Happy New Year and look forward to reading your thoughts and reflections in 2004. Here is one of my favourite passages - a verse spoken by the Buddha as quoted in the Bhaddekaratta Sutta: "Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; Let him know that and be sure of it, Invincibly, unshakeably. Today the effort must be made; Tomorrow death may come, who knows? No bargain with Mortality Can keep him and his hordes away, But one who dwells thus ardently, Relentlessly, by day, by night- It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, Who has a single excellent night." [Bhikkhus Nanamoli & Bodhi ed.] As always, any comments on the relevance of this verse (which appears in quite a number of suttas) would be welcome. I note in particular it refers to insight seeing presently arisen states correctly. With metta to all Andrew 28496 From: m. nease Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael and Ken, Please excuse my butting in--Michael, has it occurred to you to think of sabhaava as simply being the difference between what can and can't be the object of satipa.t.thaana? This seems to me both to be the important distinction and to obviate the necessity of fitting these terms into a western philosophical framework. Happy New Year, All, mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Beisert" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 8:49 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics > Hello KenO, > > KenO: > it is its mere occurrence in > accordance with conditions that is called 'a dhamma with its own > particular nature' (sabhava-dhamma) > > Michael: > Ken, just reflect about what you wrote. First you say that dhammas arise > according to conditions which is fine with me, but then you go on to say > that a dhamma also has a 'particular nature'. Now, either you are thinking > about something else and using the words incorrectly or you simply don't > realize the absurdity of what you are saying. Particular nature means > something that only that dhamma possesses which is distinct from anything > else. Would you agree with this interpretation? Well this is the same as > saying it has an essence. And if something has an essence it is impossible > that it can be affected by conditions. > > Metta > Michael 28497 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Mike, Mike: Please excuse my butting in--Michael, has it occurred to you to think of sabhaava as simply being the difference between what can and can't be the object of satipa.t.thaana? This seems to me both to be the important distinction and to obviate the necessity of fitting these terms into a western philosophical framework. Michael: You are touching another area where I have significantly different opinions from some members of this list. In my view any object experienced by the senses can be object of Satipatthana. It is not the object that matters but the three characteristics of dukha, anicca, anatta which are present in any conditioned object/phenomena. Therefore anything can be used to realize insight. To think that only so called paramatha dhammas are good for insight is an unnecessary limitation. Sariputta was good at that, but very few others. Metta Michael 28498 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:43pm Subject: What the Buddha taught Hi everyone, including me, It can be said that what a person says is what they teach. Their sayings reflect their beliefs. But a far better indicator of what a person believes is what they do. What a person does is a teaching of what they believe. As we all know it is possible to come to believe many different and sometimes conflicting things about what the Buddha taught by words. This is because he said many different things at different times to different folks of different persuasions, and we are never the specific audience to which those specific things were said. We are selective about which of the Buddha's verbal teachings we take to heart, and commentary after commentary after commentary suggests that we do not know what teaching to apply when. When it comes to what the Buddha did, it is quite impossible to be selective. In the morning, the Buddha went on his alms round, after which he spent the rest of his day in seclusion, only coming out of the days abiding to expound the Dhamma when he was inclined to do so. Clearly, the Buddha is teaching, by doing, the value of seclusion and inactivity. Is seclusion and inactivity the Dhamma? Of course not. But seclusion and inactivity is, by the Buddha's example, creating the opportunity for insight into the Dhamma, whether wet, dry or otherwise to arise. Majjhima Nikaya 8 Sallekha Sutta The Discourse on Effacement "What can be done for his disciples by a Master who seeks their welfare and has compassion and pity on them, that I have done for you, Cunda. There are these roots of trees, there are empty places. Meditate, Cunda, do not delay, lest you later regret it. 'This is my message to you." Commentary "So far goes a compassionate teacher's task namely, the correct exposition of his teaching; that, namely, the practice (according to the teaching; patipatti), is the task of the disciples." Section on progress of the disciple http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/progress_disciple.htm I have no doubt about what the Buddha is teaching. I am very unwilling, however, to realise it. Quite attached to my thicket of beliefs, thank you very much. :-) I could hardly wish wisdom and understanding on anyone if I am daily rejecting the opportunities to take steps in the right direction, so I'll just wish everyone a pleasant abiding in the concept of 2004 :-) Be well!!! Herman 28499 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Victor, I am very happy to be reading your posts again. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: 28500 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Dan, Thank you for your post and encouraging words. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > --> This is well put. Part of the fruit of understanding is that > there is a decrease in attachment (alobha and adosa) and an increase > in the strength of scruples (hiri and ottappa). That leads to > practical change with certainty. I'd agree, then, that "practical > change" can be used to gauge progress in understanding: Is the > understanding just at the level of Pali words and recitation of > doctrinal formulas (in which case it would be practically useless)? > Most of us here have taken in more of the Buddha's words than most of those who became enlightened. Have the Buddha's words lost their edge? The Buddha's words have never been able to achieve anything without the willingness to practice them. I am chief amongst the unwilling. (There's another banner for you , Sarah . I am a poor follower of the Buddha, but at least I know how poor a follower I am :-)) But I do not kid myself that the acquisition of more theory will change my unwillingness. (another banner - Some poor fools are deluded, I am not :-)) If you are saying that theoretical understanding only is practically useless, you have my vote. All the best to you, Dan Herman (another banner, I am Herman, and the rest of you are not :-) 28501 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:40pm Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Herman] It's nice to have your vote, Herman. So, tell me if this is at all accurate: You gave up on Christianity a long time ago, and you gave up on Buddhism recently; and yet, you have a strong spiritual drive and instinct. What are you up to now? Dan > If you are saying that theoretical understanding only is practically > useless, you have my vote. > > All the best to you, Dan > > > Herman (another banner, I am Herman, and the rest of you are not :-) 28502 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:50pm Subject: Re: A Single Excellent Night - and Year Dear Andrew, Happy new year to you and Sandra. I so like this sutta quote. Not only does it appear in a number of suttas, but also in several of my note books! I have written in down a lot to remind myself. I visited my brother in Nov. [instead of attending Cooran], and he told me about a Catholic priest who spoke similar words in a sermon. "you can't retrieve the past and you might be dead in 10 minutes, so do good right now". This one was from Htoo Naing - I think - "we are being dead tick by tick. Death clock is running all the time, tick tack tick tack. No one can stop that tick tack tick tack". Cheers, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Dear DSG Cast & Crew > I wish you all a Happy New Year and look forward to reading your > thoughts and reflections in 2004. Here is one of my favourite > passages - a verse spoken by the Buddha as quoted in the > Bhaddekaratta Sutta: > "Let not a person revive the past > Or on the future build his hopes; > For the past has been left behind > And the future has not been reached. > Instead with insight let him see > Each presently arisen state; > Let him know that and be sure of it, > Invincibly, unshakeably. > Today the effort must be made; > Tomorrow death may come, who knows? > No bargain with Mortality > Can keep him and his hordes away, > But one who dwells thus ardently, > Relentlessly, by day, by night- > It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, > Who has a single excellent night." > > [Bhikkhus Nanamoli & Bodhi ed.] > As always, any comments on the relevance of this verse (which appears > in quite a number of suttas) would be welcome. I note in particular > it refers to insight seeing presently arisen states correctly. > With metta to all > Andrew 28503 From: m. nease Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Beisert" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics > Hello Mike, > > Mike: > Please excuse my butting in--Michael, has it occurred to you to think of > sabhaava as simply being the difference between what can and can't be the > object of satipa.t.thaana? This seems to me both to be the important > distinction and to obviate the necessity of fitting these terms into a > western philosophical framework. > > Michael: > You are touching another area where I have significantly different opinions > from some members of this list. In my view any object experienced by the > senses can be object of Satipatthana. I don't think we're in disagreement, here. > It is not the object that matters but > the three characteristics of dukha, anicca, anatta which are present in any > conditioned object/phenomena. Surely. The question is whether or not concept is conditioned object/phenomenon. I'm suggesting that the distinction is sabhaava. > Therefore anything can be used to realize > insight. The idea that ideas can be the object of insight is a dangerous one, I think--hence the importance of sabhaava. > To think that only so called paramatha dhammas are good for insight > is an unnecessary limitation. Not only unnecessary but contradictory to the idea that ideas can be the basis for liberating insight. > Sariputta was good at that, but very few > others. I don't think this (personality) is relevant--no offense. Nice chatting with you and Happy New Year, mike 28504 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:05pm Subject: Contraception and the First Precept Dear Group, What is the buddhist view of contraception in general, and the form of contraception known as the Morning-After Pill in particular? Does it break the first Precept, if the M-A Pill is taken, as it usually is, not knowing if fertilisation has taken place? [To deliberately kill a living being (i.e. to complete an unwholesome course of action - akusala kamma patha) five constituent factors must be fulfilled. There must be: - A living being - Knowledge that there is a living being - Desire to kill - Effort to kill - Consequential death] This relates to a small but concerning part of my work in Women's Health - the occasional anxious phone call from a woman who has had unprotected intercourse and is fearful of a pregnancy. http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1018838.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28505 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:34pm Subject: Re: A Single Excellent Night - and Year Hello Andrew, Azita, and all, This is such a coincidence! (And shows how papanca may be of help occasionally.) I was reading about Candana in the Devaputtasamyutta (young devas), when you posted the verses from the Bhaddekaratta Sutta, which focuses on our relationship to psychological time. Favourite of mine also. A monk called Lomasakangiya Thera had, in the time of Kassapa Buddha, been unable to understand the Bhaddekaratta Sutta even though another monk had tried very hard to explain it to him. They agreed to meet in the future life for a question and answer session on this sutta. The other monk became the deva Candana. And in this life, Lomasakangiya finally 'got it'. :-) http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/l/lomasakangiya_th.htm http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/c/candana.htm BTW, this sutta has been translated into Melanesian Pigin; if you are a little familiar with that, it makes charming reading: Bhaddekaratta Sutta = Sutta long husat i inap stap strong, em iet. No. 17 at: http://www.buddhanet.net/ftp06.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Dear DSG Cast & Crew > I wish you all a Happy New Year and look forward to reading your > thoughts and reflections in 2004. Here is one of my favourite > passages - a verse spoken by the Buddha as quoted in the > Bhaddekaratta Sutta: > "Let not a person revive the past > Or on the future build his hopes; > For the past has been left behind > And the future has not been reached. > Instead with insight let him see > Each presently arisen state; > Let him know that and be sure of it, > Invincibly, unshakeably. > Today the effort must be made; > Tomorrow death may come, who knows? > No bargain with Mortality > Can keep him and his hordes away, > But one who dwells thus ardently, > Relentlessly, by day, by night- > It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, > Who has a single excellent night." > > [Bhikkhus Nanamoli & Bodhi ed.] > As always, any comments on the relevance of this verse (which appears > in quite a number of suttas) would be welcome. I note in particular > it refers to insight seeing presently arisen states correctly. > With metta to all > Andrew 28506 From: Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:36pm Subject: the 8 inseparables Hi Nina, I called the 8 inseparables "organic matter" but I agree "organic" doesn't cover all the bases. I couldn't think of another word that would make sense out of the 8 inseparables. The 8 inseparables are a particular group of rupas that arise together. They are: 4 primary elements, color, smell, taste, and nutritive essence. Salt would be included in this, so "organic" isn't quite right. It seems to me whatever has nutritive essence is food but I agree that thinking of one's fleshy body as food is a little odd. However, nutritive essence would include whatever has nutritive value to any living formation, including bacteria, imo. Considering the eye decade, for example, there are the 8 inseparables, eye sensitivity, and life faculty. These together are one of the things life faculty maintains for as long as kamma continues to produce them. Can't we call this an organ consisting of fleshy stuff with nutritive value plus eye sensitivity and life faculty which have no nutritive value? U Rewata Dhamma does use the word "organic" in CMA, but not as I used it: p. 250: Material phenomena originating from temperature: Beginning from the stage of presence at the moment of re-birth linking, the internal fire-element found in the material groups born of kamma combines with the external fire element and starts producing organic material phenomena originating from temperature. Thereafter the fire element in the material groups born of all four causes produces organic material phenomena born of temperature throughout the course of existence. Externally, temperature or the fire element also produces inorganic material phenomena, such as climatic and geological transformations. Larry 28507 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael k: Could you describe to me which dhamma do not have particular nature or possessed a distinct nature. Are you saying that that rupa can be nama and nama can be rupa or ignorance can be wisdom and wisdom can be ignorance. Dhamma has distinct nature, but the crux is whether this nature is caused, is conditioned. Furthermore I think you are confused about the usage of essence that we have used, when we used essence it does not mean it is not caused, arise on its own power. Just like when Buddha talks about anatta, can you tell me if it is an essence or not essence. Or in simply terms, can we deny the existence of not-self? When it is an existence mean it is an essence but that does not mean this essence can arise on its own or uncaused. An essence is not uncaused or arise as its own power, an essence to us means there is an existence that is caused. When we used the word possessed, it does not mean it has a self, definitely everything is anatta, cannot possessed anything. We are saying it is to relation that to a dhamma, this dhamma has its own unique characteristic just like anatta has its own unique characteristic. Can Anatta own its characteristic definitely not, the characteristic of Anatta is by natural law that is has such characteristic (no one create it neither does it arise on its own) but without this distinct characteristic of anatta, we will not have a path. And Anattta exist and is distinct (existence itself already connates an essence) but dependent on conditions and caused. kind regards Ken O 28508 From: Philip Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:02pm Subject: Re: A Single Excellent Night - and Year Hello Andrew, and everyone, from a new member. (My intro post was back about 10 days ago.) I certainly don't want to revive the past- it makes me queasy just thinking about it!- but I do believe in revisiting it. I've been going through my diaries from the last 3 years rather obsessively during the last week, finding patterns of backliding and diversions from the path. I think I've learned a lot about how to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and conduct my life more skillfully this year. I look forward to learning from you all this year. My participation will have to be limited mostly to reading a lot and asking occasional questions, since the depth of Dharma that is usually discussed here is beyond my beginner's practice. I live in Japan, and always enjoy New Year's eve here. The temple bells ring 108 times starting around 15 minutes before midnight to help us cleanse our minds of the 108...something or other. They are called "Bonnou" in Japanese. Unwholesome thoughts, I guess would be one way to translate it. Oh, my dictionary says "worldy desires." It's a nice tradition. Alas, there's not much sign of this kind of application of the Dharma in a communal way the rest of the year. It seems that for most Japanese, Buddhism is something to be pulled out for funerals and other ceremonies related to death. (In her greeting, Sarah mentionned that there are other DSG members living in Japan. I look forward to hearing about your experiences related to the Dharma here.) At least it's one single excellent night of the year here. Well, an excellent 15 minutes or so. With Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Dear DSG Cast & Crew > I wish you all a Happy New Year and look forward to reading your > thoughts and reflections in 2004. Here is one of my favourite > passages - a verse spoken by the Buddha as quoted in the > Bhaddekaratta Sutta: > "Let not a person revive the past > Or on the future build his hopes; > For the past has been left behind > And the future has not been reached. > Instead with insight let him see > Each presently arisen state; > Let him know that and be sure of it, > Invincibly, unshakeably. > Today the effort must be made; > Tomorrow death may come, who knows? > No bargain with Mortality > Can keep him and his hordes away, > But one who dwells thus ardently, > Relentlessly, by day, by night- > It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, > Who has a single excellent night." > > [Bhikkhus Nanamoli & Bodhi ed.] > As always, any comments on the relevance of this verse (which appears > in quite a number of suttas) would be welcome. I note in particular > it refers to insight seeing presently arisen states correctly. > With metta to all > Andrew 28509 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Victor Definitely the 8NP is part of the mental fabrication so does the three unwholesome roots bc they are all cetasikas. But if I am not wrong, the qn is asked whether the 8NP is fabricated (purposedly made up by the Buddha). No, bc mental fabrications cannot be fabricated as it is anatta. Kind regards Ken O 28510 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Dan --- "Dan D." wrote: > Hi Ken, > The "Middle Way" is Right understanding, Right effort, Right > speech, etc. It is not the rule, that makes 8fp "middle", it is > the "Right." "Rightness" comes from Understanding, not from brute > force following of a rule or list of rules. When the understanding > is truly there, the behavior is bound to be right. Your definition of Right Understanding is known as enlightement, so there is nothing there to discuss on this. However for those who cannot develop supramundane understanding after listening to Buddha has to follow this gradual path set by the Buddha. Pse kindly look at this sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn107.html The Vinaya is part of the middle way for those who still not enlighted. If we only defined the middle path as just for the enlighted that is to me, a very narrow definition. It is through mundane we proceed to supramundane so the middle path must be thread firstly in the mundane stage before to supramundane. Just like when we learn Abhdhamma we cannot verify certain things we learn bc of our kilesa, but we still have to see that way bc it is called the treading of the middle path (following the correct path). k: With regards to the qn wether virtue is path or fruit, here is the Visudd text, under the path of purification, Visudd say there are many ways to reach the path of Nibbana. One example is Virtue is part of way and definitely there must be understanding involved. <> > --> Dan: The Patimokkha is more than "Right Action". It is a list > of rules that, regardless of their understanding, bhikkhus are > expected to follow for the benefit of the sangha, for the benefit > of the community at large, and for the preservation of the > Dhamma. These mundane expectations are not part of the Middle Way > because there is no "Right" prefixed to any of the rules or to the > list of rules as a whole. K: But the inclusion of right action into this list cannot divulge the impt of these rules in the middle path. > --> Dan: Vinaya and "Middle Way" overlap tremendously, but they are not the same and neither is contained in the other. K: Since Buddha never specifically say which rules to abolish, that is why Vinaya becomes lengthy. The introduciton of Vinaya by Buddha is not just for the sake of conserving/protection of the sangha but is also for the the cultivation of virtues, that is part of the path as explain above. Kind regards Ken O 28511 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:57pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Christine, What do you reckon about this ? From the Udana 1 as found at http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/udn/udn1.htm 8. Thus have I heard. On a certain occasion the Blessed One dwelt at Savatthi, in the Jetavana, the garden of Anâthapindika. At that time the venerable Sangamaji had arrived at Savatthi to see the Blessed One. Now the old wife of the venerable Sangamaji heard that her lord, Sangamaji, had arrived at Savatthi, so taking her child with her, she went to the Jetavana. At that time the venerable Sangamaji was sitting at the foot of a certain tree, enjoying a noonday rest. And the old wife went to where the venerable Sangamaji was, and drawing near to him, said, "This, O Samana, is thy little son, cherish thou him." When she had thus spoken, the venerable Sangamaji remained silent. A second and a third time she said: "This, O Samana, is thy little son, cherish thou him." When she had thus spoken, the venerable Sangamaji remained silent. Then the old wife, depositing the child in the presence of the venerable Sangamaji, took her departure, saying: "This, O Samana, is thy son, cherish thou him." And the venerable Sangamaji neither looked at the child nor spoke to him. Then the old wife with the assent of the venerable Sangamaji withdrew for a short distance, and when she saw that the venerable Sangamaji neither looked at the child nor spoke to him, this thought occurred to her, "This Samana cares not for his son", and turning away, she took her son and departed. And the Blessed One, with divine vision, clear and surpassing that of men, beheld this discomfiture of the old wife of the venerable Sangamaji. And the Blessed One, in this connection, on that occasion, breathed forth this solemn utterance: "He neither rejoices at his arrival, nor grieves at his departure: This Sangamaji, freed from attachment, him I call a Brahmana." All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > What is the buddhist view of contraception in general, and the form > of contraception known as the Morning-After Pill in particular? Does > it break the first Precept, if the M-A Pill is taken, as it usually > is, not knowing if fertilisation has taken place? > > [To deliberately kill a living being (i.e. to complete an unwholesome > course of action - akusala kamma patha) five constituent factors must > be fulfilled. > There must be: > - A living being > - Knowledge that there is a living being > - Desire to kill > - Effort to kill > - Consequential death] > > This relates to a small but concerning part of my work in Women's > Health - the occasional anxious phone call from a woman who has had > unprotected intercourse and is fearful of a pregnancy. > > http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1018838.htm > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28512 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:58pm Subject: Sangamaji's actions was (Re: Contraception etc.) Hello Herman, and all, I find it a difficult sutta to consider - one of those areas in the scriptures that I put in the 'too hard' basket. I believe, in previous discussions (perhaps elsewhere), Sangamaji's actions were justified in later writings by giving the deserted wife with the hungry child an ulterior motive (!). Which indicates, to me, that people have felt uncomfortable about this sutta for more than two and a half thousand years. And, as Sangamaji's motives are praised by the Buddha, what more can be said? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > What do you reckon about this ? > > From the Udana 1 as found at > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/udn/udn1.htm > > 8. Thus have I heard. On a certain occasion the Blessed One dwelt > at Savatthi, in the Jetavana, the garden of Anâthapindika. At that > time the venerable Sangamaji had arrived at Savatthi to see the > Blessed One. > > Now the old wife of the venerable Sangamaji heard that her lord, > Sangamaji, had arrived at Savatthi, so taking her child with her, > she went to the Jetavana. > > At that time the venerable Sangamaji was sitting at the foot of a > certain tree, enjoying a noonday rest. And the old wife went to > where the venerable Sangamaji was, and drawing near to him, > said, "This, O Samana, is thy little son, cherish thou him." > > When she had thus spoken, the venerable Sangamaji remained > silent. A second and a third time she said: "This, O Samana, is thy > little son, cherish thou him." When she had thus spoken, the > venerable Sangamaji remained silent. Then the old wife, depositing > the child in the presence of the venerable Sangamaji, took her > departure, saying: "This, O Samana, is thy son, cherish thou him." > And the venerable Sangamaji neither looked at the child nor spoke to > him. Then the old wife with the assent of the venerable Sangamaji > withdrew for a short distance, and when she saw that the venerable > Sangamaji neither looked at the child nor spoke to him, this thought > occurred to her, "This Samana cares not for his son", and turning > away, she took her son and departed. > > And the Blessed One, with divine vision, clear and surpassing > that of men, beheld this discomfiture of the old wife of the > venerable Sangamaji. > > And the Blessed One, in this connection, on that occasion, > breathed forth this solemn utterance: > > "He neither rejoices at his arrival, nor grieves at his departure: > This Sangamaji, freed from attachment, him I call a Brahmana." > > > All the best > > > Herman 28513 From: Andrew Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 9:32pm Subject: Re: A Single Excellent Night - and Year Hi Philip Nice to hear from you and to learn a little bit about Japan. Don't be afraid to post more as there are many like you and I whose knowledge of Dhamma is limited - but growing (and that's the main thing to keep in mind). You wrote: I certainly don't want to revive the past- it makes me queasy just > thinking about it!- but I do believe in revisiting it. I've been > going through my diaries from the last 3 years rather obsessively > during the last week, finding patterns of backliding and diversions > from the path. I think I've learned a lot about how to avoid the > mistakes I've made in the past and conduct my life more skillfully > this year. I, too, have a tendency to revisit the past - mostly in an unskilful manner. I re-live my "glorious" moments (doesn't take long) and agonise over past bad "choices". While I'm revisiting the past and planning the future, the present moment passes unskilfully and I don't really learn anything. In the sense given in the sutta, reviving the past involves taking delight in thoughts about the past - I take this to mean not just "I want" thoughts but also "I don't want" thoughts. Sometimes, doing this is actually a form of conceit (mana) in which we wallow in thoughts of our "inferiority". I think re-visiting the past is useful IF AND ONLY IF we can do it as a means of wise reflection on Reality as taught by the Buddha. Philip, you may have already noticed that, on DSG, words like "practice" and "meditation" spark debate. Sometimes, the "debaters" can't agree. Sometimes they define their terms and find some stratum of agreement. If only a Buddha were teaching today, we could all go and ask him directly! But he isn't and we all do our individual best to comprehend his Teachings as they have come down to us. Some interesting areas of controversy are: 1. the teaching of conditionality - do we really have "choices" or is choice an illusion? 2. when does "Dhamma practice" become the fetter of merely adhering to rules and rituals? 3. what to do with the doctrine of "anatta" (not-self) - leave it to the monks and Ariyans or at least grapple with it on an intellectual level. If interested, you can always search the archives and read the differing views that have been expressed on these topics. If you are at all like me, these things take a long time to digest but I think the results are worthwhile. Personally speaking, I have gone from blaming myself for not being able to keep "on the Path" to believing that, whatever happens (good or bad) can become an object for Insight. To me, it's understanding the present that really matters. Too much re-visiting the past can cloud that. Do you agree? With metta Andrew > > 28514 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] processes in Patthana, Patisambhidha Hi Howard, Thank you for your kind wishes for my father. It is just old age, 103 years, some disorientation as to place, his memory, etc. But Music is fine for him. He is quite absentminded but lives up when he listens. We give it twice a week, it means rehearsing. Your story is quite amazing about the person in coma. My father gets irritated about Buddhism, but when Spinoza says something it is O.K. We had a nice chat about anger. Spinoza says that you should have no hate and when one is angry one cannot think clearly. He had to laugh and he asked Lodewijk and me whether we are sometimes angry. He can say very good things about politics, Proust, Balzac. What he formerly did emerges then and Lodewijk does his utmost to stimulate him, telling him about a passage of Proust he read the other day. Yes, about processes in more detail is in the Patthana under anatara paccaya, contiguity-condition, and in the Path of Discrimination. But citta is classified as dhatu: vinnanadhatu, mano-vinnana-dhatu, and people will not recognize them. I wrote to Rob M about all this in an old post. Please remind me, after I have first written about bhavanga, but this is work in progress. Nina. op 31-12-2003 18:17 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > In a message dated 12/31/03 11:52:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > That is a *far* cry from what I mean by the theory of the sense-door > and mind-door processes. I'm talking about all the bhavanga cittas, and javana > cittas, and registration cittas etc, etc. (Please see the postscript below.) > Certainly I'm not questioning the Buddha's teaching of dependent origination > or > conditionality in general! 28515 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Vinaya Dear Herman, I like your post very much, it is so true. I am glad you bring this up. Nina. op 31-12-2003 09:44 schreef Egberdina op hhofman@t...: > This is the verbatim remainder of the intro to the Vinaya as found > on accesstoinsight. 28516 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Ken O] Hi Ken, You write: "Your definition of Right Understanding is known as enlightement, so there is nothing there to discuss on this. However for those who cannot develop supramundane understanding after listening to Buddha has to follow this gradual path set by the Buddha." No, no. I'm talking of plain old kusala! Following rules or doing any particular "good deed" may be either kusala or akusala, depending on the cetasikas. I read mn107 per your request -- great sutta! But I don't see that it addresses 8fp (a.k.a., the "Middle Way"). I see "gradual training, gradual practice, and gradual progress"... Do you look at the Dhamma as a set of rules to follow? And that by following the rules, one will attain liberation? With metta galore, Dan 28517 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 11:01pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Dear Christine, It's hard to say what the "buddhist view" of the M-A pill is, but from your description it looks like breaking the first precept because there is intent to kill the embryo and then killing it. If there happens not to be one, then of course there is no breach of the precept, even though there is aggressive, violent action motivated by dosa. Joy and peace to you in this new year, Metta, Dan 28518 From: Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] processes in Patthana, Patisambhidha Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/1/04 1:41:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > Thank you for your kind wishes for my father. It is just old age, 103 years, > some disorientation as to place, his memory, etc. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: How wonderful to reach that age, to love music, and to have a loving, caring daughter and son-in-law. He is blessed. ----------------------------------------------- But Music is fine for him.> > He is quite absentminded but lives up when he listens. We give it twice a > week, it means rehearsing. Your story is quite amazing about the person in > coma. > My father gets irritated about Buddhism > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: And perhaps your husband a drop as well at times? ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------- , but when Spinoza says something it> > is O.K. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: He could do a lot worse than Spinoza to admire. Years ago I read a little of Spinoza, and I was very impressed by his work. He was a pantheist who at one point was finally excommunicated by the Synagogue authorities of the time. ---------------------------------------------------- We had a nice chat about anger. Spinoza says that you should have no> > hate and when one is angry one cannot think clearly. He had to laugh and he > asked Lodewijk and me whether we are sometimes angry. He can say very good > things about politics, Proust, Balzac. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: He sounds like a brilliant man. (But that doesn't come as a surprise.) -------------------------------------------------- What he formerly did emerges then and> > Lodewijk does his utmost to stimulate him, telling him about a passage of > Proust he read the other day. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Wonderful! ------------------------------------------------ > Yes, about processes in more detail is in the Patthana under anatara > paccaya, contiguity-condition, and in the Path of Discrimination. But citta > is classified as dhatu: vinnanadhatu, mano-vinnana-dhatu, and people will > not recognize them. I wrote to Rob M about all this in an old post. Please > remind me, after I have first written about bhavanga, but this is work in > progress. > Nina. > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28519 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Ken O] Hi Dan > > By following the rules, one will attain liberation? k: Nope :-). But I (stubborn like a bull) still belief they are part of the middle way. kind regards Ken O 28520 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 1:46am Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Christine, > It's hard to say what the "buddhist view" of the M-A pill is, but > from your description it looks like breaking the first precept > because there is intent to kill the embryo and then killing it. If > there happens not to be one, then of course there is no breach of the > precept, even though there is aggressive, violent action motivated by > dosa. Hello Dan, I'm not so sure that it fits the bill of "knowing there is an embryo". 'Just in case' doesn't mean there is 'knowledge'. As you say, even if there was 'intention' but no embryo, there is no breach. I thought there had to be knowledge of a being, intention to kill that being, and the death of that being. Dan: > Joy and peace to you in this new year, > > Metta, And to you and your family also Dan metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 28521 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 2:01am Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Dear Christine, I think this is what Dan meant: if there is no new embryo then killing is not committed. It is similar to the case of war. A commander thinks enemy soldiers might be hiding in an area so he orders in an artillery bombardment or a bombing raid to be on the safe side. If there were no enemy present or killed then he commits no akusala kamma patha. The commander was playing it safe, just in case. The person who takes this aftermorning pill thinks there might be a new embryo so to be on the safe side they use the poison which will kill it. Often of course no new embryo was there at all, so no akusala kamma patha. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" <> > Dear Christine, > > It's hard to say what the "buddhist view" of the M-A pill is, but > > from your description it looks like breaking the first precept > > because there is intent to kill the embryo and then killing it. If > > there happens not to be one, then of course there is no breach of > the > > precept, even though there is aggressive, violent action motivated > by > > dosa. > ========== > > I'm not so sure that it fits the bill of "knowing there is an > embryo". 'Just in case' doesn't mean there is 'knowledge'. As you > say, even if there was 'intention' but no embryo, there is no > breach. I thought there had to be knowledge of a being, intention to > kill that being, and the death of that being. > > Dan: > Joy and peace to you in this new year, > > > > Metta, > > And to you and your family also Dan > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 28522 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 4:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: From reading about all of your `know-it-all' statements you > described to Christine, you probably got on their nerves. ;-) .... I expect you’re right as usual, James :-) I don’t think I had expressed any of those thoughts, but they probably sense them as you would. I know they don’t want to be advised yet again to watch their wallets and purses when shopping, esp.over the border......After a big hike today, I'm being excused for most of tomorrow too;-) ..... > James: Well, here we are mixing up terms. I don't see `neutrality' > and `impartiality' as being the same thing. Neutrality has the > connotation of not caring about a particular stimulus, as deeming it > unimportant. Impartiality has the connotation of recognizing a > particular stimulus but being unbiased (non-craving) toward it; and > is much closer to equanimity. ..... I agree. I mean I also much prefer equanimity and impartiality as translations. Your objection is therefore with a translation of upekkha rather than with the Visuddhimagga. .... > If you see equanimity as being impartiality, we don't have any > argument. The majority of the rest of this post is moot. .... Cool! .... > James: I don't think that you are more `emotionally needy' than > anyone else. LOL! Until we become enlightened, we all have certain > emotional needs. Mine are not the same as yours; that was all I was > stating. My approach in this group is better these days because I > have learned to better differentiate the emotional impressions I get > from others and my own. Didn't really intend to `Shake You Up'! > LOL! .... Oh well, fun while it lasted......shake shake...... ..... > Metta, and Happy New Years to you too and to everyone. I am going to > the opera for New Years! It should be fun (and much cheaper in > Cairo!;-). .... Hope you had fun! I can’t believe we’ve started the New Year in perfect agreement on a thread, but seems like it;-) ;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 28523 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 5:05am Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept dear Christine, One point that mitigates taking the morning after pill is that there a 2 ways it can work. The first is by working like a normal contraceptive that stops the sperm and egg joining. When it works like this it is fine from a buddhist perspective. The other is by stopping the fertilized egg from fixing to the uterus and this is where it is likely to be akusala kamma pattha. One can never know which is occurring (or whether there would have been no pregancy even without the pill) . The odds might be only 1 in a hundred or fifty that there is any breaking of the precept on any occasion of taking it. Hard to know. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Christine, > I think this is what Dan meant: if there is no new embryo then > killing is not committed. > It is similar to the case of war. A commander thinks enemy soldiers > might be hiding in an area so he orders in an artillery bombardment > or a bombing raid to be on the safe side. If there were no enemy > present or killed then he commits no akusala kamma patha. The > commander was playing it safe, just in case. > The person who takes this aftermorning pill thinks there might be a > new embryo so to be on the safe side they use the poison which will > kill it. Often of course no new embryo was there at all, so no > akusala kamma patha. > RobertK > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" <> > Dear > Christine, > > > It's hard to say what the "buddhist view" of the M-A pill is, > but > > > from your description it looks like breaking the first precept > > > because there is intent to kill the embryo and then killing it. > If > > > there happens not to be one, then of course there is no breach > of > > the > > > precept, even though there is aggressive, violent action > motivated > > by > > > dosa. > > > ========== > > > > I'm not so sure that it fits the bill of "knowing there is an > > embryo". 'Just in case' doesn't mean there is 'knowledge'. As > you > > say, even if there was 'intention' but no embryo, there is no > > breach. I thought there had to be knowledge of a being, intention > to > > kill that being, and the death of that being. > > > > Dan: > Joy and peace to you in this new year, > > > > > > Metta, > > > > And to you and your family also Dan > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 28524 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 5:30am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Dan, Dan: So, how does patimokkha differ from Asceticism Lite? James: Asceticism Lite? What is that? A new type of diet soft drink? Hehehe… Okay, I think I catch your drift. The patimokkha (training rules for Bhikkhus) are not what you seem to think of them. They are not empty rules, void of meaning, or a lesser form of asceticism. This attitude is exactly why I made the statement that I made in my post to Howard. It seems to me that the Buddhist layperson's concept of the `Middle Way' has veered too much to the pleasure end of the spectrum. The patimokkha has the guiding principal of doing no harm: doing no harm to others, one's community, and one's self. It is designed for the monastic lifestyle so of course it doesn't apply directly to the layperson's lifestyle. However, what the layperson community needs to do, in my opinion, is to create its own Vinaya, fashioned on the principal of not doing harm and designed for the householder lifestyle. Rules that guide behavior for laypeople would be a lot better for us all than the individualistic theory of `if it feels good, do it'. As you noted, the Buddha refused to create a set of rules at first because they weren't needed. Why create rules when you don't need them? If everyone behaves appropriately, there is no need for rules. However, as the sangha grew and more `wayward' bhikkhus joined and they were spread out over far distances, the need for rules presented itself so the Buddha then created them, as the various needs arose. Before the Buddha died he said that some of the minor rules could be stricken, to of course account for changes in society due to the passage of time. He didn't say that they should be stricken, just that they could be. The sangha meet on this issue and decided not to strike any of the rules, which was probably a good decision. Those rules that become antiquated over time just simply won't apply in the future; no reason to tamper with the rules because it could set up a dangerous precedent. Now, the impression I am getting from you, forgive me if I am wrong, is that you believe the Buddha made some kind of mistake by creating these rules, that he was forced to create them, and that at the end he wanted to recant or to somehow correct the mistake he had made. That is not the proper way to look at it. The Vinaya and the Dhamma are synonymous. You keep emphasizing in this thread that the following of rules, without an understanding of them, isn't going to create wisdom. So, is the alternative better? Let people do whatever they want? Is that going to create wisdom? When we were all little children, our parents gave us rules to follow that we may not have understood but they were for our well being. As we grew older, we began to see the wisdom of those rules that we didn't see before. The Vinaya is for the well being of the sangha. Some monks will understand the wisdom of the rules and some won't, but that doesn't mean they all shouldn't follow them. I hope I have made my position clear. If you have anymore questions don't hesitate to ask! And Happy New Years! Metta, James 28525 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Mike, Mike: The question is whether or not concept is conditioned object/phenomenon. I'm suggesting that the distinction is sabhaava. Michael: Could you pls expand a little bit more on this idea? When you say concept, are you using the idea of paññati? I am not very comfrotable with paññati because it appears in very few suttas. I don’t know exactly were it comes from and what exactly it means. But anyway, in what sense is a concept distinct from a thought and would a concept fall into the sankhara aggregate, a mental formation? And if a concept is not conditioned, what is it then? Metta Michael 28526 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 6:36am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Ken: Ken: Could you describe to me which dhamma do not have particular nature or possessed a distinct nature. Michael: There is no dhamma that ‘possesses’ a distinct nature. Every dhamma has characteristics but those arise together with the dhamma, are also conditioned, and are not possessed by the dhamma. Ken: I think you are confused about the usage of essence that we have used, when we used essence it does not mean it is not caused, arise on its own power….it is an existence mean it is an essence but that does not mean this essence can arise on its own or uncaused. Michael: Confusion is to think that a dhamma can have an essence and at the same time be conditioned. An essence implies some unchanging nature and if it is unchanging the conditions do not apply. An essence does not arise and does not cease, this is the nature of an essence. A conditioned dhamma has not any kind of essence and therefore is subject to causes and conditions for its arising and ceasing. Dictionary definition of essence: The intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something. The inherent, unchanging nature of a thing or class of things. Metta Michael 28527 From: Benjamin Jerome Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 7:33am Subject: [dsg] sexual misconduct vs. sensual pleasures misconduct Dear Everyone, Part of samma kammanto, right action, is: kamesu,micch'acara veramani For a translation of this I have seen both of these: Abstaining from sexual misconduct and Abstaining from misconduct in sensual pleasures. The latter, abstaining from misconduct in sensual pleasures, sounds like it includes more activities that the first, abstaining from sexual misconduct. How is this is be interpreted? Metta, Ben 28528 From: Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Ken O] Hi, Ken (and Dan) - In a message dated 1/1/04 4:10:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Dan > > > > >By following the rules, one will attain liberation? > > k: Nope :-). But I (stubborn like a bull) still belief they are > part of the middle way. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Good for you, Ken! What is key, I think, in "attachment to mere rules and rituals" are "attachment" and "mere".To observe rules that are useful and well given and that, when followed, can have auspicious consequences is simply good sense. On the other hand, to be *attached* to them in any way is already to fall victim to defilement, and, especially harmful is to be attached to them as *mere* rote ritual, as magic. And I think it is this sort of error that the Buddha cautioned against, and which disappears with stream entry. But, certainly he didn't teach actions for 45 years (in sutta and vinaya) only to advise against these actions. In fact, with stream entry, and the disappearance of the third fetter, there also arises enormous saddha, enormous confidence that the Buddha's path of practice works!) ---------------------------------------------------------- > > kind regards > Ken O ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28529 From: Benjamin Jerome Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 8:07am Subject: [dsg] dhamma to reflect upon To Everyone, ==== All that is subject to origination is subject to cessation ==== Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya (from AN VII,55) 'All things are not fit to be clung to' 'All things are unworthy of attachment' ==== Metta, Ben "And castles made of sand, slip into the sea, eventually." -Jimi Hendrix 28530 From: Larry Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 8:10am Subject: Re: life maintenance Hi Nina, I left out one class of living materiality called the "vital 9" (8 inseparables + life faculty). What is it? Apparently it is different from the sense, sex, & heart base decades. Also, can you give specific examples of what these terms refer to, for example, skin, teeth, fat, bone? Otherwise they are too general and meaningless. I am inclined to think the sense decades, including the body decade, include only the materiality associated with the specific sensory mechanism, in other words, nerves. Would skin tissue, and physiognomy in general, be an example of a sex decade? Do all 4 means of production produce the 8 inseparables in the "whole" body? I am trying to figure out what is living and what isn't. The 8 inseparables that kamma produces is living materiality. Can you give examples of what would be examples of 8-inseparables produced by kamma, temperature, consciousness, and nutriment? Please be specific. If, because of desire, I eat too much pure octad, is the resulting fat produced by kamma or by consciousness? Larry 28531 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 8:51am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael > Michael: > There is no dhamma that ‘possesses’ a distinct nature. Every dhamma > has characteristics but those arise together with the dhamma, are also conditioned, and are not possessed by the dhamma. k: I thought that is the position I have told you. Dont take the word possession as some kind of monster that is has its own being. > Michael: > Confusion is to think that a dhamma can have an essence and at the > same time be conditioned. An essence implies some unchanging nature and if it is unchanging the conditions do not apply. An essence does not arise and does not cease, this is the nature of an essence. A conditioned dhamma has not any kind of essence and therefore is subject to causes and conditions for its arising and ceasing. > Dictionary definition of essence: The intrinsic or indispensable > properties that serve to characterize or identify something. The inherent, unchanging nature of a thing or class of things. > k: I think there are many definitions of essence, if you go to dictionary.com. it gives you six meanings including your definition mean but it also include this "The intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something." That is what I am been telling you, sabhava means an indispensable properties that make a dhamma distinct. That is what it meant by the commentarian usage of the word essence. Earlier I have quoted you that essence depends on condition, now I have present one Abhidhamma quotes on essence that is meant by not a being, "The dispeller of delusion" under the classification of elements "As regards pathavidhatu ("earth element") and so on, the meaning of the element has the meaning of "nature" (sabhava) and the meaning of nature has the meaning of "voidness" (sunna) and the meaning of voidness has the meaning of "not a being" (nissatta). Thus it is the element that is only earth element in the sense of nature, voidness and not a being that is the earth element." Since you have insisted that essence in the commentarian usage is something of an unchangeable or uncaused nature, I would appreciate if you provide one example of the commentarian that you have seen. K: Furthermore, I have also used existence as essence in my earlier mail, the dictionary.com also defined essence that "something that exists, especially a spiritual or incorporeal entity" Can we say that anatta does not exist. Pse note that someting exist as an entity does not meant this entity is uncaused or rise up by its own power (anatta is always a good example) k: I hope this clarifies the meaning of essence - it is distinct and exist but it is conditoned and not a being. kind regards Ken O 28532 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 9:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Christine, I am not sure about contraceptive pills but I know there is one that killed a fertilized embryo. To me once there is a fertilize embryo, it has a life, be it attached itself to the uterus or not, so killing it, is breaking the first precepts. To me killing the embryo is not a breaking the first precept bc embryo does not have a life without fertilising. kind rgds Ken O 28533 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:01am Subject: Five aggregates of sustenance/pancupadanakkhandha Hi all, Here is some reflection on the theme of the five aggregate of sustenance/panupadanakkhandha. It might not be a very organized writing, but might offer some points for discussion. The word "upadanakkhandha" is a compound word made up of "upadana" and "khandha." The word "upadana" means fuel, supply, provision, or literally, that (material) substratum by means of which an active process is kept alive or going.[1] It is usually translated as "clinging" or "sustenance." The word "khandha", in its crude meaning, means "bulk, massiveness (gross) substance." In its applied sense, it means "the body of, a collection of, mass, or parts of"; in collective sense "all that is comprised under"; forming the substance of.[2] It is usually translated as "aggregate." As a compound word, "upadanakkhandha" can be understood as "aggregates of sustenance." When the Buddha taught the five aggregates/pancakkhandha, he taught form as an aggregate/the aggregate of form/rupakkhandho, feeling as an aggregate/the aggregate of feeling/vedanakkhandho, perception as aggregate/the aggregate of perception/sannakkhandho, fabrications as an aggregate/the aggregate of fabrications/sankharakkhandho, and consciousness as an aggregate/the aggregate of consciousness/vinnanakkhandho. yam kinci bhikkhave, rupam atitanagatapaccuppannam ajjhattam va khahiddhà va, olarikam va sukhumam va, hinam va panitam va, yam dure santike va, ayam vuccati rupakkhandho Bhikkhus, whatever form, past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called form as an aggregate/the aggregate of form. [3] The Buddha also taught the five aggregates of sustenance/pancupadanakkhandha: the form as an aggregate of sustenance/the aggregate of sustenance of form/rupupadanakkhandho, feeling as an aggregate of sustenance/the aggregate of sustenance of feeling/vedanupadanakkhandho, perception as an aggregate of sustenance/the aggregate of sustenance of perception/sannupadanakkhandho, fabrications as an aggregate of sustenance/the aggregate of sustenance of fabrications/sankharupadanakkhandho, and consciousness as an aggregate of sustenance/the aggregate of sustenance of consciousness/vinnanupadanakkhandho. For instance, yam kinci bhikkhave, rupam atitanagatapaccuppannam ajjhattam va bahiddha va, olarikam va sukhumam va, hinam va panitam va, yam dure santike va, sasavam upadaniyam, ayam vuccati rupupadanakkhandho Bhikkhus, whatever form, past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near, of effluence/sasava, of sustenance/upadaniya: that is called form as an aggregate of sustenance/the aggregate of sustenance of form. [4] Now some may have the following question: Are the five aggregates/pancakkhandha the same as the five aggregates of sustenance/pancupadanakkhandha or are they different? Before we come to a conclusive answer of the question above, let's examine the following passage: Tanneva nu kho ayye upadanam te ca pancupadanakkhandha, udahu annam nu kho pancahupadanakkhandhehi upadananti? Na kho avuso visakha tanneva upadanam, teva pancupadanakkhandha, napi annatra pancahupadanakkhandhehi upadanam yo kho avuso visakha pancasupadanakkhandhesu chandarago, tam tattha upadananti [Visakha]: "Is it the case, lady, that sustenance is the same thing as the five aggregates of sustenance or is it something separate?" [Bhikkhuni Dhammadinna]: "Friend Visakha, neither is sustenance the same thing as the five aggregates of sustenance, nor is it something separate. Whatever desire & passion there is with regard to the five aggregates of sustenance, that is the sustenance there." [5] In the passage above, Dhammadinna explained the relation between sustenance, desire & passion, and the five aggregates of sustenance. This relation can be illustrated with a simile: The five aggregates of sustenance are like fuel, and desire & passion/chandarago is like fire. Sustenance/upadana is like the the fueling and sustaining of the fire by the fuel, or clinging of the fire to the fuel. And the following provides a explanation on what sustenance/upanada is: Katamanca bhikkhave upadanam? Cattarimani bhikkhave, upadanani: kamupadànam, ditthupadanam, silabbatupadanam, attavadupadanam. Idam vuccati bhikkhave upadanam. Bhikkhus, what is sustenance? These four are sustenances, bhikkhus: sensuality as sustenance/sustenance of sensuality, view as sustenance/sustenance of view, precept & practice as sustenance/sustenance of precept & practice, and doctrine of self as sustenance/sustenance of doctrine of self. This, bhikkhus, is called sustenance. [6] Sensuality, view, precept & practice, and doctrine of self can be seen as four forms of sustenance: four different ways how the fuel of the five aggregates fuels and sustains the fire of desire & passion, or how the fire of desire & passion clings to the fuel of the five aggregates. As Dhammadinna's reply to Visakha, sustenance is neither the same thing as the five aggregates of sustenance, nor is it something separate. Whatever desire & passion there is with regard to the aggregates of sustenance, that is the sustenance there. In short, without the flame of desire & passion, there is no sustenance, the fueling & sustaining and the clinging. And sustenance/upadana leads to becoming, which in turn leads to birth, followed by aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. From sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. [7] Sustenance of precept & practice, and/or doctrine of self can be understood as that sustain and fuel the process of becoming, birth, aging & death, the round of rebirth. In short, sustenance inevitably leads to what is dukkha/unsatisfactory: the five aggregates of sustenance, which make up the totality of one's experience in the world from birth to death.[8] "Now this, monks, is the noble truth of dukkha/unsatisfactoriness: Birth is dukkha/unsatisfactory, aging is dukkha/unsatisfactory, death is dukkha/unsatisfactory; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are dukkha/unsatisfactory; association with the unbeloved is dukkha/unsatisfactory, separation from the loved is dukkha/unsatisfactory, not getting what is wanted is dukkha/unsatisfactory. In short, the five aggregates of sustenance are dukkha/unsatisfactory. [9] The origination/cause of dukkha/unsatisfactoriness is craving/tanha, the desire & passion with regard to the five aggregates of sustenance. The cessation of dukkha/unsatisfactoriness does not mean that the five aggregates of sustenance becomes not dukkha/unsatisfactory, nor does it mean that the five aggregates of sustenance becomes simply the five aggregates. "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of dukkha/unsatisfactoriness: the craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of dukkha/unsatisfactoriness: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving. [10] In terms of dependent co-arising/paticcasamuppada: From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of sustenance. From the cessation of sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire aggregate of dukkha/unsatisfactoriness. [11] Because of the cessation of birth, aging & death, the five aggregates of sustenance as the World, the All, the totality of a being's experience from birth to death, cease. That is the cessation of dukkha/unsatisfactoriness, the cessation of this entire aggregate of dukkha/unsatisfactoriness. Realizing the Unbinding/Nibbana, fully released, an arahant discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'[12] From the time of an arahant's realization of the Unbinding/Nibbana to the time of his or her passing away, Total Unbinding/Parinibbana, the arahant still lives in the world, with the five aggregates of sustenance. However, with the cessation of craving, sustenance ceases. For the arahant, there is no more birth. Peace, Victor Notes: * All pali passages are from http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/index.html [1] The Pali-English Dictionary in http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ [2] Ibid. [3] Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48, Khandha Sutta, Aggregates. Adaptation of Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-048.html [4] Ibid. [5] Majjhima Nikaya 44, Cula-vedalla Sutta, The Shorter Set of Questions-and-Answers. Adaptation of Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn044.html [6] Samyutta Nikaya XII.2, Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta, Analysis of Dependent Co-arising. Adaptation of Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html [7] Ibid. [8] Another classification scheme of the totality of one's experience in the world is the scheme of six internal and external sense bases. [9] Samyutta Nikaya LVI.11, Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta, Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion Adaptation of Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-011.html [10] Ibid. [11] Samyutta Nikaya XII.2, Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta, Analysis of Dependent Co-arising. Adaptation of Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html [12] Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59, Anatta-lakkhana Sutta, The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic "Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the body, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059.html 28534 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:31am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Ken, KenO: I think there are many definitions of essence, if you go to dictionary.com. it gives you six meanings including your definition mean but it also include this "The intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something." Michael: Yes, there are many definitions but all of them point towards something intrinsic, inherent, that truly exists. The use of ‘essence’ will always be loaded with those connotations no matter how much explanation one gives. If the intention of the commentators was to use sabhava/essence but did not mean to transmit the idea of inherent, intrinsic, why then use the word? KenO: I hope this clarifies the meaning of essence - it is distinct and exist but it is conditioned and not a being Michael: I agree with ‘distinct and exist and is conditioned’ but cannot agree that this is a definition of essence. It may be your particular way of defining essence but is not the common usage. Metta Michael 28535 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:40am Subject: life- faculty, fragility of life Dear Larry and Howard, op 29-12-2003 00:39 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Does the life faculty maintain any consciounesses? N: It performs its function in the unit of rupas produced by kamma. This happens so long as we are alive, and cittas arise and fall away, until the last moment. In this sense there is a connection. The length of our life depends on kamma. A. Sujin said to me: look at your father, we can see that kamma causes his life to hold out so long. L: What about the > formless realm? N: no life faculty, because there is no rupa. Thus we see that life-faculty is not a *conditio sine qua non* for being alive. I was at a loss with your first qu, but this solves it, thank you. L:Is the life faculty the same for plants? N: plant are external rupas produced only by the element of heat, kamma does not produce them. Thus, no life faculty. Some people find this difficult. A plant cannot perform kusala or akusala nor receive vipaka. But *we* cannot always know what is alive and what is not. In my correspondance with Howard I included a sutta passage: > In M I, 43, there is a conversation between Sariputta and Maha-Kotthita, > and > also vitality is mentioned. it is explained that vitality and heat depend on > one another. It is explained that a dead body is different from the body of > a monk who has realized the stopping of perception and feeling: this body, your reverence, when three things are got rid of: vitality, heat > and consciousness, then does this body lie cast away, flung aside like unto > a senseless log of wood.> H: I understand the difficulty to see life-faculty as a rupa, not just a conventional term. This also goes for heat as one of the producing factors. I come to that later on. H: I suppose that when a prior citta is the cause, then that is when the > namic version of life force comes into play. Would this be the Abhidhammic > response to my question. N: More about mental jivitindriya. The Expositor invites for the definition of rupa jivitindriya to look at nama jivitindriya, which is a cetasika, one of the universals arising with each citta. It has a function, preserving the life of the accompanying citta and cetasikas. I requote: > Mental jivitindriya: Expositor I, p. 197: <...that persistence which is in > immaterial states means the persistence which, in the sense of establishing > them, is in the immaterial states. For when it is present, the immaterial > states occur, go on, continue; hence it is called persistence [aayu: life, > is causative of i, to go, is explained]. This word gives the nature of the > faculty of life. And inasmuch as these associated immaterial states- when > there is persistence- subsist, occur, maintain themselves, progress, > continue, preserve themselves...> > Citta and cetasikas fall away together, but they are succeeded by a > following citta and cetasikas. There is a new life faculty with them each > time they arise, and it makes them subsist during that short moment. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: What are instances of the mental life principle *not* being present? Why should it be deemed necessary. Cittas, cetasikas, and rupas arise according to conditions. Why the need for a special "life principal" to sustain them??? N: The difficulty with this cetasika is that it does not appear as prominent as feeling cetasika or anger cetasika. It seems a hidden reality. This is also the case with attention, manasikara, the controller of the object, which drives citta and cetasikas to the object. And then what do we really know about remembrance, sanna, and contact, phassa, and concentration which focusses on the object? We may think we understand, but do we really? We should see mental jivitindriya in the context of these seven universals, which assist citta to cognize an object. The seven universals are the minimum amount of cetasikas, asisting the citta which sees or hears. Citta could not arise without them. And cetasikas cannot arise without citta. They condition one another by way of conascence and mutuality (an~nama~n~na). Thus also mental life faculty has its own task. Without it no citta. Let's consider more the meaning of cetasika in life. Cittas still go on from moment to moment, while seeing, while hearing. We read, < For when it [mental life faculty] is present, the immaterial states occur, go on, continue; hence it is called persistence [aayu: life, is causative of i, to go, is explained]. This word gives the nature of the faculty of life.> It becomes clearer that no man, woman sees, only citta and cetasikas, carrying out their functions. We cling to life mental and physical, unnoticed. We take it for granted that it continues. Kamma is the cause of physical life-faculty and it is beyond control how much longer kamma will produce it and jivitindriya will look after the conascent rupas. The study of jivitindriya reminds us of the fragility of life. Nina. 28536 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:good wishes Dear Mike, I am reflecting on what you say, < to obviate the necessity of fitting these terms into a western philosophical framework>. Food for thought. People do this already, no matter what we say, and how can we help, find ways to make the Abhidhamma more accessible? I think that helping should be to consider first the interests of an individual. Like I wrote about my father to Howard. What are his interests. We shall try to talk more about Proust to him. Had Proust only gone one step further: he realized already that there is not one "moi", not one Albertine, but many changing moments. Or let it be Spinoza, I get the info from my philosophical sister. It may be helpful if you tell us how for you "the penny dropped", and also if Ken H could say something. Mike, did you have trouble with the Abhidhamma? You entered dsg long before me, and, what I notice from you, it seems to me that you listened to A. Sujin already for ages. But you were not long in Bgk? Not much opportunity to listen? No conflicts with western ideas?? I am no good, since because of accumulations, I am not western. I felt right from the beginning very comfortable with the way the teachers of old express themselves, with their world of thinking. So, I had no idea that others find this difficult. But I want like people to look through the terms and go straight to the dhammas that are actually taught by these terms and explanations. To find out the intentions of the teachers of old. What did they want to express? I think, they taught to go straight to reality. How difficult to explain the difference between concepts and realities, sabhava dhammas. I think we should reflect more on this ourselves and give many examples from daily life, yes, as much as we can. We also have the matter of formal meditation, so often discussed here. It is a fact that many people feel comfortable with formal meditation, they find it beneficial for themselves. I would like to talk about dhammas occuring in daily life and reflect on what the suttas teach about these. The Abhidhamma teaches the same as the sutta but gives more details about nama and rupa. We should discover for ourselves the presently arisen dhammas in daily life and find out for ourselves that this is what the Buddha taught all the time, also in the suttas, also in Vinaya. To find out that the development of satipatthana from moment to moment is the way to begin to understand those realities. I hope to get ideas from you and others how to build a bridge between the modern, western outlook and the Dhamma as taught by the teachers of old. I myself do not think it helpful to westernize the Dhamma, we shall get further away instead of nearer to the Dhamma. I appreciate Azita's and Htoo's reminder that we have no time to lose, tick..tack.. Our life is too short, really. This conditions a sense of urgency. But at the same time we should realize that we are in for a long, long time project. Happy New Year to you all, and may we every day of this year develop understanding of the realities that arise in our daily life, Nina. op 31-12-2003 23:42 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Please excuse my butting in--Michael, has it occurred to you to think of > sabhaava as simply being the difference between what can and can't be the > object of satipa.t.thaana? This seems to me both to be the important > distinction and to obviate the necessity of fitting these terms into a > western philosophical framework. 28537 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Hi Larry, op 01-01-2004 02:36 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I called the 8 inseparables "organic matter" but I agree "organic" > doesn't cover all the bases. N: one of those words, Larry, about which Mike said: < fitting these terms into a western philosophical framework.> You quoted U Rewata and concluded that he gives another meaning: organic: rupas of the body, inorganic: other rupas, not of the body. The trouble of such terms: different people give them a different meaning. Why not use the Abhidhamma terms straight? Preferable together with the Pali. L.... The 8 inseparables are a > particular group of rupas that arise together. They are: 4 primary > elements, color, smell, taste, and nutritive essence. Salt would be > included in this, so "organic" isn't quite right. N: salt is a conventional term, not one of the eight inseparable rupas. It is like sand. When it is on the tongue salty flavour appears, it impinges on tastingsense (a rupa) ready or fit for impact of flavour. At the same time it is accompanied by seven other rupas of that unit. But only one of those is experienced, depending on the right conditions for such experience. L: It seems to me > whatever has nutritive essence is food but I agree that thinking of > one's fleshy body as food is a little odd. However, nutritive essence > would include whatever has nutritive value to any living formation, > including bacteria, imo. N: yes, what we call a piece of wood consists of units of the inseparable rupas. Nutrition is included. > Considering the eye decade, for example, there are the 8 inseparables, > eye sensitivity, and life faculty. These together are one of the things > life faculty maintains for as long as kamma continues to produce them. N: Yes. L: Can't we call this an organ consisting of fleshy stuff with nutritive > value plus eye sensitivity and life faculty which have no nutritive > value? N: We have to distinguish between the compound organ and the sentient organ. The compound organ is a lump of flesh, and it is constituted by many units of rupa, including nutrition. The sentient organ is located within one unit, a decad, produced by kamma, also including the eight inseparables, thus, nutrition. No need to think of foodstuff we can eat. That decad is so very tiny. It is perhaps difficult to imagine that nutrition always arises with each unit? Nina. 28538 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:50am Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Dear Robert and Christine, I like that war analogy, Robert. The artillery bombardment is ordered on the assumption that there are enemy soldiers there. If enemy soldiers are then killed, there is breach of first precept -- a spiritual lapse. But, gosh, Christine, if knowledge must be certain that a being is to be killed before the deliberate killing of that being constitutes a breach of the first precept, you've found a wondrous loophole! Just think of the possibilities... Another point to consider is that we are not living in a purely spiritual world, and we should not expect that all the actions that are considered morally blameless in a material or social calculus will be blameless in a spiritual calculus, and we cannot expect that all actions that are spiritually tainted will also be materially or socially tainted. In fact, spiritually corrupt actions (e.g., M-A pill, bombing Hitler's tanks) may have social benefits that would improve the world for a lot of people. Metta, Christine. Dan 28539 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 2:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Dan, Christine & Robert, I think this quote is relevant, from the Paramatthajotikaa (The Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning),comy to the Khuddakapaa.tha),PTS,trans by ~Naanamoli. 11, the Training Precepts, 21 "Herein,a blow given by the body or by what is connected to the body is ‘with one’s own hand’ as means. That is of two kinds as directed [to an individual] and not so directed. Herein, in the case directed [to an individual], one becomes responsible for the action of killing [kamma-bandha -responsibility for action] only through the death of the one to whom the blow was directed. In the case of that not so directed [and given] thus ‘Let anyone at all die’ [one becomes responsible] through anyone’s death that is conditioned by that blow." Metta, Sarah ===== 28540 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 2:41pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Christine and everyone, You come up with some interesting conundrums. I am reminded of the Monty Python lampooning of the Catholic stance against male masturbation through the song "Every sperm is sacred". Is it the Buddhist viewpoint that a sperm is not a living thing? That would be a bit arbitrary, don't you think? I wonder what the Buddhist stance would be on rape victims taking the M-A pill? I'm just imagining what would happen if a definitive stance was taken by majority or authority. Is a precept a guideline one applies to oneself, or is a precept applied from without? All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > It's hard to say what the "buddhist view" of the M-A pill is, but > > from your description it looks like breaking the first precept > > because there is intent to kill the embryo and then killing it. If > > there happens not to be one, then of course there is no breach of > the > > precept, even though there is aggressive, violent action motivated > by > > dosa. > > Hello Dan, > > I'm not so sure that it fits the bill of "knowing there is an > embryo". 'Just in case' doesn't mean there is 'knowledge'. As you > say, even if there was 'intention' but no embryo, there is no > breach. I thought there had to be knowledge of a being, intention to > kill that being, and the death of that being. > > Dan: > Joy and peace to you in this new year, > > > > Metta, > > And to you and your family also Dan > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 28541 From: Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 9:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi, Herman - In a message dated 1/1/04 5:44:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Christine and everyone, > > You come up with some interesting conundrums. > > I am reminded of the Monty Python lampooning of the Catholic stance > against male masturbation through the song "Every sperm is sacred". > Is it the Buddhist viewpoint that a sperm is not a living thing? > That would be a bit arbitrary, don't you think? > > I wonder what the Buddhist stance would be on rape victims taking > the M-A pill? > > I'm just imagining what would happen if a definitive stance was > taken by majority or authority. Is a precept a guideline one applies > to oneself, or is a precept applied from without? > > > > All the best > > > Herman > =========================== Now, cut that out, Herman! No libertarians allowed on Religion lists!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28542 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 3:34pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept [Herman] Hi Herman, Adopting a law to prohibit murder is good public policy, but it is not Buddhist. Nor is it non-Buddhist. Buddhism is not about devising ways to control other people's behavior; it is about development of wisdom and virtue within oneself. Dan > I'm just imagining what would happen if a definitive stance was > taken by majority or authority. Is a precept a guideline one applies > to oneself, or is a precept applied from without? 28543 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 3:50pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hello Dan, RobertK, and all, I wasn't looking for a loophole Dan - RobM had given me the definition of killing not so long ago, and I was trying to fit the Morning After Pill in with that. The definition was from the The Expositor (Atthasalini), which is an authorised Commentary on the Dhammasa.nga.nii by Buddhaghosa. (5th century C.E.)Book I, Part III, Chapter V - Discourse on Courses of Immoral Actions, p126-136 in the PTS version. It states: To deliberately kill a living being (i.e. to complete an unwholesome course of action - akusala kamma patha) five constituent factors must be fulfilled. There must be: - A living being - Knowledge that there is a living being - Desire to kill - Effort to kill - Consequential death So this is why I thought that actual knowledge that there definitely is a living being was important. There is something not clear to me - probably I'm mixing-up kamma and precepts. Here is how I see it. I think Kamma is Intention (a moment of desiring to act in order to create a particular result). I don't think it is the 'beginning the action' (whether or not achieving the intended result), or, the 'completion of action' (with the achieving of the intended result). Intention (kamma) precedes action and any result. A precept (using the first precept as an example) is broken, only if it is broken by deliberate completed action? Thinking about killing isn't breaking a Precept, accidentally killing (stepping on unseen ants) isn't breaking a Precept, badly injuring a being isn't breaking a Precept - only actually deliberately completing the killing does break a precept. Kamma has a much wider field of occurrence than the basic (unexpanded) Precepts. So, the intention to kill (the ordering of and the dropping of bombs on houses) is akusala and will create akusala accumulations (?) - even though it may or may not break the Precept (depending on whether there are beings killed)? If the Precept is only against actual killing - then anything less than the death of a being (such as hurting, disabling) doesn't break it? Intentions and mind states are the important things within Christianity and are equivalent to completed actions. The Lord Jesus said: "You have heard that it was said to people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 'But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca', [shows contempt] is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." Does the Lord Buddha say anything like this? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Robert and Christine, > I like that war analogy, Robert. The artillery bombardment is ordered > on the assumption that there are enemy soldiers there. If enemy > soldiers are then killed, there is breach of first precept -- a > spiritual lapse. > > But, gosh, Christine, if knowledge must be certain that a being is to > be killed before the deliberate killing of that being constitutes a > breach of the first precept, you've found a wondrous loophole! Just > think of the possibilities... > > Another point to consider is that we are not living in a purely > spiritual world, and we should not expect that all the actions that > are considered morally blameless in a material or social calculus > will be blameless in a spiritual calculus, and we cannot expect that > all actions that are spiritually tainted will also be materially or > socially tainted. In fact, spiritually corrupt actions (e.g., M-A > pill, bombing Hitler's tanks) may have social benefits that would > improve the world for a lot of people. > > Metta, Christine. > > Dan 28544 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 3:50pm Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Herman] Hi Dan, What you wrote is quite accurate. I think that all the "isms" out there have their uses as long as they remain the means to an end, not an end in themselves. These days I work as little as possible (which is significantly less than the nine-to-five routine) to maintain us in the manner accustomed, and am very focussed on doing very little:-) All the best to you Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > It's nice to have your vote, Herman. > > So, tell me if this is at all accurate: You gave up on Christianity a > long time ago, and you gave up on Buddhism recently; and yet, you > have a strong spiritual drive and instinct. > > What are you up to now? > > Dan > > > > > If you are saying that theoretical understanding only is > practically > > useless, you have my vote. > > > > All the best to you, Dan > > > > > > Herman (another banner, I am Herman, and the rest of you are not :-) 28545 From: Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Nina: "Why not use the Abhidhamma terms straight?" Larry: Daily life, Nina, daily life. These terms are meaningless jargon if we can't relate them to daily life. I disagree with what you said about salt. Salt is a nutritional substance, an example of the 8 inseparables, produced by temperature. It is a mineral; not a plant. I'm not very happy with plants not being considered to be alive. L. 28546 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 4:01pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hello Herman, and all, Everyday life just throws up conundrums. :-) I think there is an accepted definition of a 'sentient being', and it includes 'breathing, awareness of oneself, fearing pain and trying to avoid it'. I don't have an actual reference to hand for this definition. So a sperm would miss out on all three counts. I think of it as more of an unguided missile than a sentient being. I don't think there could be any objection to preventative forms of contraception such as the ordinary taken-in-advance contraceptive pill, or condoms, but the Morning- After Pill has become a question for me since it is now available here without prescription. And the rape victims is concerned (among other things) about the same spiritual matters as someone who has had impulsive, consensual sex and is panicing afterwards. People think very deeply and with great anxiety about these matters - abortion is legal here for many reasons, but people often go through great hardship rather than go against their ethical and spiritual values. The kammic consequences would be there whether or not the person knew about precepts and kamma. I think a Precept is a training rule - and can only be followed by oneself. But kamma/vipaka rolls on every moment, whether we want it applied or not. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > Hi Christine and everyone, > > You come up with some interesting conundrums. > > I am reminded of the Monty Python lampooning of the Catholic stance > against male masturbation through the song "Every sperm is sacred". > Is it the Buddhist viewpoint that a sperm is not a living thing? > That would be a bit arbitrary, don't you think? > > I wonder what the Buddhist stance would be on rape victims taking > the M-A pill? > > I'm just imagining what would happen if a definitive stance was > taken by majority or authority. Is a precept a guideline one applies > to oneself, or is a precept applied from without? > > > > All the best > > > Herman > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > > wrote: > > > Dear Christine, > > > It's hard to say what the "buddhist view" of the M-A pill is, > but > > > from your description it looks like breaking the first precept > > > because there is intent to kill the embryo and then killing it. > If > > > there happens not to be one, then of course there is no breach > of > > the > > > precept, even though there is aggressive, violent action > motivated > > by > > > dosa. > > > > Hello Dan, > > > > I'm not so sure that it fits the bill of "knowing there is an > > embryo". 'Just in case' doesn't mean there is 'knowledge'. As > you > > say, even if there was 'intention' but no embryo, there is no > > breach. I thought there had to be knowledge of a being, intention > to > > kill that being, and the death of that being. > > > > Dan: > Joy and peace to you in this new year, > > > > > > Metta, > > > > And to you and your family also Dan > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 28547 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Christine and all, I accept your definition of sentient being wholeheartedly, and see no problem excluding sperm (I like the unguided missile image :-) on that basis. But I can't help thinking that a single fertilised cell, or few celled organism, as would be the object of the M-A pill, would fall under the same definition, and therefore not be sentient. > > Everyday life just throws up conundrums. :-) I think there is an > accepted definition of a 'sentient being', and it > includes 'breathing, awareness of oneself, fearing pain and trying > to avoid it'. I don't have an actual reference to hand for this > definition. So a sperm would miss out on all three counts. I > think of it as more of an unguided missile than a sentient being. > I don't think there could be any objection to preventative forms of > contraception such as the ordinary > taken-in-advance contraceptive pill, or condoms, but the Morning- > After Pill has become a question for me since it is now available > here without prescription. And the rape victims is concerned (among > other things) about the same spiritual matters as someone who has had > impulsive, consensual sex and is panicing afterwards. I fully accept that a great number of women think very deeply about these matters before taking or not taking the M-A pill. I also know that there are many women who would take the M-A pill with as little effort or dosa as is required for taking an aspirin. For some the matter is very stressful, for others entirely stress free. I really have to question whether the kammic consequences would be the same for the stressed and the unstressed women. Kamma is intention. People must live with the consequences of how they judge their own deeds, not some objective judgment external to themselves (IMO) People think > very deeply and with great anxiety about these matters - abortion is > legal here for many reasons, but people often go through great > hardship rather than go against their ethical and spiritual values. > The kammic consequences would be there whether or not the person knew > about precepts and kamma. > I think a Precept is a training rule - and can only be followed by > oneself. But kamma/vipaka rolls on every moment, whether we want it > applied or not. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- All the best to you Herman 28548 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 5:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Beisert" To: Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 5:48 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics > Hello Mike, > > Mike: > The question is whether or not concept is conditioned > object/phenomenon. I'm suggesting that the distinction is sabhaava. This (immediately above) wasn't from me, was it? Another Mike, perhaps? > Michael: > Could you pls expand a little bit more on this idea? When you say concept, > are you using the idea of paññati? I am not very comfrotable with paññati > because it appears in very few suttas. Interesting point about the occurence in the suttas-- I'll leave the question to others better qualified to answer, though. > I don't know exactly were it comes > from and what exactly it means. But anyway, in what sense is a concept > distinct from a thought and would a concept fall into the sankhara > aggregate, a mental formation? > And if a concept is not conditioned, what is > it then? Good questions all (in my opinion), and also better answered by our better-informed correspondents. The only point I meant to make had to do with sabhaava being (perhaps) the distinguishing characteristic of what can vs. cannot be the object of satipa.t.thaana, as opposed to denoting some kind of essence or reality in a western philosophical sense. I think we might agree that the latter is not a particularly useful avenue of discussion. mike 28549 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 6:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Contraception and the First Precept Sarah, how does your Paramatthajotikaa quote square with Christine's DhsA quote that there must be [certain] knowledge that there really is a sentient being that will receive the blow in order for the first precept to be broken so that the M-A pill and the bombardier are off the hook as far as the training precepts go? A related question: If I don't believe that mosquitos qualify as sentient beings, then I can kill them with abandon without breaking the first precept, right? After all, I do not have knowledge that a sentient being is killed... Dan > I think this quote is relevant, from the Paramatthajotikaa (The > Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning),comy to the Khuddakapaa.tha),PTS,trans by > ~Naanamoli. > > 11, the Training Precepts, 21 > > "Herein,a blow given by the body or by what is connected to the body is > `with one's own hand' as means. That is of two kinds as directed [to an > individual] and not so directed. Herein, in the case directed [to an > individual], one becomes responsible for the action of killing > [kamma-bandha -responsibility for action] only through the death of the > one to whom the blow was directed. > > In the case of that not so directed [and given] thus `Let anyone at all > die' [one becomes responsible] through anyone's death that is conditioned > by that blow." > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== 28550 From: Benjamin Jerome Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 6:48pm Subject: [dsg] the Four Noble Truths To everyone, I have some thoughts and questions about the Dhamma. I would be happy to hear what others think about it. (I *think* I might use the words attention, awareness, and mindfulness all meaning the same thing, hope this does not cause confusion) Is mindfulness brought about by craving? (the below quote seems to say yes, and I agree with it) Is this the meaning of using a thorn to remove a thorn? Is the object of attention/awareness determined? Here is a description of the 4 noble truths in The Way of Mindfulness, the Satipatthaana Sutta Commentary by Soma Thera: "The mindfulness which lays hold of the [object of satipatthaana] is the Truth of Suffering; The previous craving which originates that mindfulness is the Truth of Origin; The non-occurance of both that mindfulness and the craving is the Truth of Cessation. The Real Path that understands suffering, casts out the origin, and has cessation for its object is the Truth of the Way. Endeavouring in this way by means of the Four Truths one arrives at peace." pg.107 I found this interpretation gives me a different angle on the 4 Noble Truths. Notice that here the *object of mindfulness* is not the truth of dukkha, but the *mindfulness itself* is the dukkha. And it seems that what we pay attention to is determined by craving. This is similar to what Herman wrote in a recent posting: " awareness ... is a product of selection based on preference and avoidance. " For an ordinary person, craving drags the attention constantly from the past to the future and back again, examining the present only sometimes, stirring up covetousness and grief like it's its job. But! thanks to satipatthaana we are instructed to use the *noble craving* to pay attention to the present moment, and try and be mindful of impermanence. This requires effort! This craving is special and is called Noble (in some sutta I read once) because is can lead to insight into the Four Noble Truths. I think that I had a tiny but significant insight while I was eating dinner tonight! I was eating a salad and chewing it mindfully, intent on listening to the sound of the chewing. But my father was in the room on the phone with his mother and his conversation was loud and overpowered the volume of my chewing. Then I noticed suddenly anger arose! But I recognized right away what the cause of the anger was, it was my desire to be mindful of the sound of chewing! In this way I saw for myself how wanting leads to anger! And of course I was able to abandon such a silly desire, is it not ridiculous to get angry because one cannot hear the sound of crunching food in his mouth? My question is, is this the way which leads to the destruction of craving? Is it because of seeing grief inside myself caused by wanting that wanting will gradually fade away? Sometimes it seems like I can understand a want and some anxiety it is producing, but it still the wanting doesn't cease! Lately I really have been noticing... I crave so much for mindfulness of present happenings that it causes me anxiety. When you want, you suffer! What I don't understand is this: if craving ceases, and awareness is based on "preference and avoidance" what does attention rest on? What determines what one pays attention to? I have heard the phrases "choiceless awareness" and I think "awareness-release". What does this mean? I don't understand how mindfulness could "not occur", as the above quotes describes in the Truth of Cessation. I remember reading something written by Kant. I believe it was called the Idea... he said something like, "freedom is to be free from determinations in a sensous world". Metta, Ben 28551 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 6:53pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael k: thanks for continuing the this discussion as I value it alot. I have the same concern as you, if Abhidhamma or ancient commentaries project something that is not changeable, independent then it must be rejected. > Michael: > Yes, there are many definitions but all of them point towards > something intrinsic, inherent, that truly exists. The use of ‘essence’ will always be loaded with those connotations no matter how much explanation one gives. If the intention of the commentators was to use sabhava/essence but did not mean to transmit the idea of inherent, intrinsic, why then use the word? K: Lets get into the discussion again, could you point to me which five khandhas that dont truly exist. They definitely truly exist but dependent on conditions. To me there is a load of difference between what exist on its own right and what exists dependent on conditions. IMHO the commentators used the word essence as a distinct nature of a dhamma that has inherent characteristics which can only be manifested when the dhamma arise and it truly exist not on its power or uncause but caused and conditioned. Inherent \In*her"ent\, a. [L. inhaerens, -entis, p. pr. of inhaerere: cf. F. inh['e]rent. See Inhere.] Permanently existing in something; inseparably attached or connected; naturally pertaining to; innate; inalienable; as, polarity is an inherent quality of the magnet; the inherent right of men to life, liberty, and protection. ``A most inherent baseness.'' --Shak. in·her·ent Existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; intrinsic. k: there a few ways that inherent is defined, one that is supported by your position that it is permanent, another it is inseparably attached or connect; naturally pertaining. If you choose the earlier one, definitely it is seen as permanent but if you choose the latter one, it is seen as naturally pertaining to or existig as an essential constituent or characteristic. So the word sabhava usage is not wrong, it is a matter how you see it. I have earlier quote you two Abhidhamma sources from two different books to say it is conditioned and sunna. So far they have been consistent on their definition. Since you said they promote an independent entity, please give me one sabhava definition that support your position from Abhidhamma or commentary works. > Michael: > I agree with ‘distinct and exist and is conditioned’ but cannot > agree that this is a definition of essence. It may be your particular way of defining essence but is not the common usage. k: Hmmmmmmmm I thought I already give a neutral one that is in dictionary.com. kind regards Ken O 28552 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 7:28pm Subject: Re: characteristics - formulation Hi Michael and Ken and everyone, I am appreciating the discussion very much. I cannot remember whether this has been raised yet. Sorry if I am repeating someone else :-) To me, the problem lies in the formulation. To say that rupa x has characteristic x is flawed. Rupa x = characteristic x. There is not a vanilla rupa that can take on any number of characteristics. The introduction of "rupas" is an abstraction. Anger = anger and only anger, green = green and only green, rupa = concept. The essence = the characteristic. When it is, it is, and when it ain't, it ain't. Wishing you both all the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Ken, > > KenO: > I think there are many definitions of essence, if you go to > dictionary.com. it gives you six meanings including your definition > mean but it also include this "The intrinsic or indispensable > properties that serve to characterize or identify something." > > Michael: > Yes, there are many definitions but all of them point towards something > intrinsic, inherent, that truly exists. The use of `essence' will always be > loaded with those connotations no matter how much explanation one gives. If > the intention of the commentators was to use sabhava/essence but did not > mean to transmit the idea of inherent, intrinsic, why then use the word? > > KenO: > I hope this clarifies the meaning of essence - it is distinct and > exist but it is conditioned and not a being > > Michael: > I agree with `distinct and exist and is conditioned' but cannot agree that > this is a definition of essence. It may be your particular way of defining > essence but is not the common usage. > > Metta > Michael 28553 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Five aggregates of sustenance/pancupadanakkhandha Dear Victor, Thank you very much for your well documented post on this sutta which I like very much. I also enjoyed the Pali you added, and I had not yet considered before the meaning of sustenance. Very good. with appreciation, Nina. op 01-01-2004 19:01 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > Here is some reflection on the theme of the five aggregate of > sustenance/panupadanakkhandha. > The word "upadanakkhandha" is a compound word made up of "upadana" > and "khandha." 28554 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood Dear Ken Ong, This passage always impresses me so much. This is the Path. all is included. Now something else. Just in case you have time, could you not come over from Singapore to Bgk Jan. 29-31? It would be so good to have you with us. Or else, Febr 7 ? You could join Jaran who also lives now in Singapore. Nina. op 01-01-2004 04:22 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...: > 'He who is possessed of constant virue. > Who has understanding, and is concentrated > Who is strenous and diligent as well > Will cross the flood so difficult to cross' (S.i.53)>> 28555 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Single Excellent Night - and Year Dear Andrew, Wonderful reminder. We can't hear enough of that, I feel. We may tell others: good or bad can be object of insight, but are we doing as we say? Thank you, Nina. op 01-01-2004 06:32 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > the results are worthwhile. > Personally speaking, I have gone from blaming myself for not being > able to keep "on the Path" to believing that, whatever happens (good > or bad) can become an object for Insight. To me, it's understanding > the present that really matters. Too much re-visiting the past can > cloud that. 28556 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Dan (Herman & All), --- "Dan D." wrote: > Sarah, how does your Paramatthajotikaa quote square with Christine's > DhsA quote that there must be [certain] knowledge that there really > is a sentient being that will receive the blow in order for the first > precept to be broken so that the M-A pill and the bombardier are off > the hook as far as the training precepts go? ..... Let’s put it this way: a sotapanna would have no thought of killing or encouraging others to do so, regardless of whether there is certain knowledge that there is life in the area about to be bombed or in the womb. Abstention (virati) from killing refers to abstention from taking any action intended to take life as I understand. Herman, “Human Being (manussaviggaha) means: from the mind’s first arising (pa.thama.m pa.tisandhicitta.m), from (the time of) consciousness becoming first manifest in a mother’s womb until the time of death,....” (Vin. 111, 73, vol1 Book of Discipline) “ ‘Life’ here (literally breathing thing), in common parlance, means a being; in its ultimate sense, living force (jivitindriya.m). And the term ‘life-taking’ is applied to the bodily and vocal doors of one who is conscious that a being is living, and who produces an effort to cut off the living force in that being.” (Atth., Expositor, Part11, ch5) “As to killing breathing things, firstly: a ‘breathing thing’ is a category-continuity involving the life faculty [jivitindriya], or it is a creature described derivatively upon that. When in the case of such a breathing thing someone perceives it as a breathing thing, then ‘killing breathing things’ is his choice to kill occurring in either the body door or speech door, and originating the active process of severing the life faculty.” (Paramatthajotikaa, Illustratator, ch11) The Paramatthajotikaa gives examples of laying traps or poison, the purpose of which is to kill. While the trap or poison is laid out, if any death occurs, the trapper is responsible. By implication, If one goes out fishing without any knowledge of whether there are fish in the waters, but intends to catch and kill any possible ones, it’s the same, I think. “There is a breathing thing, [the transgressor] is percipient of that as a breathing thing” (Paramatthajotikaa). I take this to mean that the fisherman knows that if there are any fish in the area, they are living things. There may be some grey areas we can never know about for sure and of course, often there is no knowledge of whether there is akusala kamma-patha through bodily action and speech or not. If life isn’t taken the action is not completed. However, we read that through the mind-door, “the mere harbouring of criminal intent to kill amounts to kamma, and that by ill-will, not by actual life-taking.” (Atth.Part11, ch 1V). Personally, I don’t think we can or need to always pinpoint what is akusala and what is akusala kamma patha. It’s more important to develop panna to understand the various namas and rupas regardless of the actions at these times. As you (Dan) have clearly indicated, by developing panna, the following of precepts and abstention from unwholesome courses of action will follow naturally rather than by rule-taking or fear. .... > A related question: If I don't believe that mosquitos qualify as > sentient beings, then I can kill them with abandon without breaking > the first precept, right? After all, I do not have knowledge that a > sentient being is killed... .... Hmm.... Good Qu. Certainly the wrong view and ill-will would be akusala kamma patha through the mind and as we know, the more ignorance the more weighty. Metta, Sarah p.s RobM would love this discussion;-) ====== 28557 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Five aggregates of sustenance/pancupadanakkhandha Hi Victor, Good to see you around again. You've been missed. --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi all, > > Here is some reflection on the theme of the five aggregate of > sustenance/panupadanakkhandha. It might not be a very organized > writing, but might offer some points for discussion. .... I thought it was extremely well organized with a lot of excellent detail and very well written. Anumodana and well done! I've been considering the 'heaping' aspect of khandhas recently and I like the emphasis you give to 'sustaining the fire by the fuel' when you refer to the upadanakkhandha as the fuel and the desire and clinging as the fire. Excellent. I might quibble over some of the translated terms used in the passages, such as 'precept and practice' for silabbatupadanam and I'm still considering 'sustenance' for upadana. However, as you very helpfully give the Pali as well, it's all very clear. Metta, Sarah ======== 28558 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Single Excellent Night - and Year Hi Andrew (& Philip), Good to hear from you both and to read your helpful posts. --- Andrew wrote: > Personally speaking, I have gone from blaming myself for not being > able to keep "on the Path" to believing that, whatever happens (good > or bad) can become an object for Insight. To me, it's understanding > the present that really matters. Too much re-visiting the past can > cloud that. Do you agree? .... Yes! If there are conditions to think about the past, it's conditioned too. Still the present realities to be known at these times. Your comments are always helpful, Andrew. I hope you can continue to assist other newcomers in this way. Metta, Sarah ======= 28559 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:51pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > > Is it the Buddhist viewpoint that a sperm is not a living thing? > That would be a bit arbitrary, don't you think? > ========== Dear Herman, In fact it is in the Buddhist viewpoint that sperm is not living. Buddhist texts say that once the `blood'[egg] from the mother mix with the matter{sperm] from the father then consciousness may arise. "It amounts to no more than a drop of cream of ghee on a single fibre of a new-born [kid's] wool, and is known as the embryo in the first stage" (Visuddhimagga XVII 152). As I read the text new consciouness can arise with this matter at any time once the sperm has begun to enter the egg. It could be immediately or it could be hours later or possibly in rare situations even days later. But there has to be first the mixing of the sperm with the egg. Before that the egg or sperm alone is not a suitable support for consciousness. So in the case of the morning after pill there is no problem from a buddhist perspective when it works to stop sperm meeting egg. The possible killing only occurs if the sperm has already penetrated the egg and then it still depends on whether a new being is present. So one who takes the pill would not know whether they are killing or not. If they take it an hour or 2 after sex then the odds are it would stop conception before sperm had met egg. But it is taken up to 2-3 days after sex and at that stage the odds are higher that a new life is present. robertk 28560 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 11:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Hi Larry (& Nina), An interesting point: --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Nina: "Why not use the Abhidhamma terms straight?" > > Larry: Daily life, Nina, daily life. These terms are meaningless jargon > if we can't relate them to daily life. .... Hmmm..... I agree with this to some extent. At the same time, if we are always looking for novel ways to use the terms which accord with our very limited daily life knowledge and wisdom, we’re at risk of never getting a correct theoretical handle on how the terms are intended. Now this isn’t to say that we all need to hear and get a correct theoretical construct of the entire Abhidhamma, but I think the limited amount that is relevant and useful should be according to the texts we’re studying, otherwise instead of leading to greater clarity and opportunities for listening, hearing and considering them, they’re likely to result in greater confusion. I’m reminded that at moments of satipatthana, saddha and panna (confidence and wisdom) are balanced. In my case, when I follow other intellectual proliferations or else get lost in details I can’t really comprehend, I would say both the panna and saddha are too weak. The practice always comes back to awareness of the present reality. I appreciate your Qus and discussions, Larry. Keep it up! Metta, Sarah ====== I disagree with what you said > about salt. Salt is a nutritional substance, an example of the 8 > inseparables, produced by temperature. It is a mineral; not a plant. I'm > not very happy with plants not being considered to be alive. L. 28561 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 11:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sexual misconduct vs. sensual pleasures misconduct Hi Ben, --- Benjamin Jerome wrote: > Dear Everyone, > > Part of samma kammanto, right action, is: > > kamesu,micch'acara veramani > > For a translation of this I have seen both of these: > > Abstaining from sexual misconduct > and > Abstaining from misconduct in sensual pleasures. .... Good question. "In the expression 'wrong conduct in sensual pleasures,' [in this context], 'in sensual pleasures' means 'in matters of sexual intercourse'; 'wrong conduct' means 'base and truly blameworthy conduct.' The characteristic of 'wrong conduct in sensual pleasures' is the volition arising in the body-door, through the unlawful intention of trespassing upon a person to whom one has no right of going......" (Atthasalini, transl at The Expositor, PTS, Bk11, ch 5) Metta, Sarah ====== 28563 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 11:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Herman, --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Christine, > > What do you reckon about this ? > > From the Udana 1 as found at > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/udn/udn1.htm .... I know you weren’t asking my opinion, but you may find it interesting (or not;-)) to look at the commentary details I included about Sangamaji before: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11897.html You’ve mentioned in your other discussions that:‘a far better indicator of what a person believes is what they do. What a person does is a teaching of what they believe.’ This is a good point and as Dan has emphasised ‘part of the fruit of understanding is that there is a decrease in attachment...’ and so on. We can test the teachings for ourselves. However, I think the Udana you quote from above is an excellent example of how others with their own views may interpret such actions and changes in a very different manner. This is a bit of a hobby-horse of mine at the moment, in case anyone hasn’t noticed;-) Also, I don’t think the point of the sutta is to suggest that we should all follow a lifestyle of ‘seclusion and inactivity’ to create better opportunities for insight into the Dhamma. The practice (patipatti) you refer to elsewhere is the understanding of conditioned realities and the danger of attachment. I’ll sign off with another sutta relevant for a few of your threads. Very good banner examples btw, Herman;-) ;-) Happy NY to all your family. Metta, Sarah http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn05-005.html Then, having understood that "This is Mara the Evil One," she replied to him in verses: “If even a hundred-thousand rapists came across me like this, I wouldn't stir a hair. I'd feel no terror,” More discussion when we get to Bhikkhuni samyutta (SN5), I’m sure. ============================================= 28564 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 0:49am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi Christine, (James & All), I greatly appreciated all the posts on SN1, quotes and commentary notes, which I’ve only just caught up with;-) I know very little about devas and devatas. Anyway, a few bits to add here: --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello all, > > 1. One thing (trivial perhaps) that I notice translators differ on, > is the gender of Devas. Bhikkhu Bodhi invests this one with a > masculine gender, whereas Thanissaros' translation makes her female. > Is there anything known about gender issues among the devas? ..... I’ve been having a look through the Vimana stories and commentary (transl by P.Masefield, PTS) which is all about devas and devatas and their previous meritorious deeds which have resulted in their present heavenly abodes. Definitely they have genders. All, I can say is that the devatas as opposed to the devas seem to be female, but I’m sure BB must have had a reason for his choice. Maybe Nina can help. One of these is Surima (discussed before) -now a devata: “Thus I am a devata who sees the Deathless, a savaka of the Tathagata, of the Unrivalled One, one who sees Dhamma, established in the first fruit, a sotapanna and, moreover, there is for me no miserable destiny.” All the devas and devatas in these stories have ‘excesive splendour, being of variegated colours and shapes’ and so on. They are always asked what great deeds they performed as humans which have resulted in ‘such complexion’ and ‘shining majesty’ which ‘radiates in all directions’. We read that many of the recitations were given by Mahamogallana who of course was foremost amongst the disciples in supernatural powers (iddhi). He’d take a deva-tour, question the devatas and combine questions and answers, making them known to the Buddha who would address the monks. Even Sakka’s verses were spoken by Mahamoggalana. These were designated as the Vimana Stories (also verse form) and recited with the other texts as part of the Khuddaka Nikaya. Perhaps the verses and accounts in Devatasamyuta were also given by Mahamoggallana? He visited the first devata mentioned in the text. She had performed an offering to an elder and reflected joyfully on the dhamma talk and her deed. Mahamoggalana could see the good and bad deeds performed and usually the devatas also knew the deeds performed. We read that ‘O adorned one’ and so on indicate the ‘distinctive splendour’ and excellent ‘existence’, ‘for just as a glittering golden ornament, put together by a well trained master of his craft even, and itself inlaid with gems and jwels that blaze forth in a network of divers rays, shines, but not exclusively, even so does this individual personality, shining to its four corners....’ and so on. Just looked at the clock. Time to run as Num used to say... Metta, Sarah ===== 28565 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 1:24am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Dear Sarah,and all, These were great bits! Thankyou. I thought I'd post another sutta on Crossing the Flood, but this time from the Devaputtasamyutta - Connected Discourses with Young Devas. (how old is an old deva?) I also found another bit from Bhikkhu Bodhi about male and female devas. Candana, a Young Deva (Devaputta), Crosses the Flood: 2 15(5) Devaputtasamyutta - Candana Standing to one side, the young deva Candana addressed the Blessed One in verse: "Who here crosses over the flood, Unwearying by day and night? Who does not sink in the deep, Without support, without a hold?" ]n.164] "One always perfect in virtue, Endowed with wisdom, well concentrated, One energetic and resolute Crosses the flood so hard to cross. "One who desists from sensual perception, Who has overcome the fetter of form, Who has destroyed delight in existence - He does not sink in the deep." [n.165] Bhikkhu Bodhi says in a general note n.141: "Devaputtasamyutta means literally "son of the devas", but since devas are depicted as arising in their celestial abodes by way of spontaneous birth, I translate the compound simply as "young deva." Spk: They are reborn in the laps (anka) of devas. The males are called sons of the devas (devaputtaa); the females, daughters of the devas (devadhiitaro); When they are not known by name it is said, "a certain devataa" (as in the preceding samyutta); but those who are known by name are referred to as "a son of the devas named So-and-So" (as here)." ======== Christine: Are they are born as full-size or miniature versions of an adult deva? ... it could induce an anxiety complex if a deva was always wondering when a full size unknown adult deva was going to 'pop' into existence on their lap ... I wonder if, as in this life where one generally has forty weeks for the parent to get used to the idea, there are any signs and symptoms (even if not physical) heralding a deva arrival? And for what purpose are some male and some female, if there is spontaneous birth? How can one tell a male from a female? I suppose they know, which may or may not matter to them. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine, (James & All), > > I greatly appreciated all the posts on SN1, quotes and commentary notes, > which I've only just caught up with;-) I know very little about devas and > devatas. Anyway, a few bits to add here: > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello all, > > > > 1. One thing (trivial perhaps) that I notice translators differ on, > > is the gender of Devas. Bhikkhu Bodhi invests this one with a > > masculine gender, whereas Thanissaros' translation makes her female. > > Is there anything known about gender issues among the devas? > ..... > I've been having a look through the Vimana stories and commentary (transl > by P.Masefield, PTS) which is all about devas and devatas and their > previous meritorious deeds which have resulted in their present heavenly > abodes. Definitely they have genders. All, I can say is that the devatas > as opposed to the devas seem to be female, but I'm sure BB must have had a > reason for his choice. Maybe Nina can help. > > One of these is Surima (discussed before) -now a devata: > > "Thus I am a devata who sees the Deathless, a savaka of the Tathagata, of > the Unrivalled One, one who sees Dhamma, established in the first fruit, a > sotapanna and, moreover, there is for me no miserable destiny." > > All the devas and devatas in these stories have `excesive splendour, being > of variegated colours and shapes' and so on. They are always asked what > great deeds they performed as humans which have resulted in `such > complexion' and `shining majesty' which `radiates in all directions'. > > We read that many of the recitations were given by Mahamogallana who of > course was foremost amongst the disciples in supernatural powers (iddhi). > He'd take a deva-tour, question the devatas and combine questions and > answers, making them known to the Buddha who would address the monks. Even > Sakka's verses were spoken by Mahamoggalana. These were designated as the > Vimana Stories (also verse form) and recited with the other texts as part > of the Khuddaka Nikaya. Perhaps the verses and accounts in Devatasamyuta > were also given by Mahamoggallana? > > He visited the first devata mentioned in the text. She had performed an > offering to an elder and reflected joyfully on the dhamma talk and her > deed. Mahamoggalana could see the good and bad deeds performed and usually > the devatas also knew the deeds performed. > > We read that `O adorned one' and so on indicate the `distinctive > splendour' and excellent `existence', `for just as a glittering golden > ornament, put together by a well trained master of his craft even, and > itself inlaid with gems and jwels that blaze forth in a network of divers > rays, shines, but not exclusively, even so does this individual > personality, shining to its four corners....' and so on. > > Just looked at the clock. Time to run as Num used to say... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== 28566 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Mike, Mike: The only point I meant to make had to do with sabhaava being (perhaps) the distinguishing characteristic of what can vs. cannot be the object of satipa.t.thaana, as opposed to denoting some kind of essence or reality in a western philosophical sense. I think we might agree that the latter is not a particularly useful avenue of discussion. Michael: Seems we are more or less back to where we started. As I mentioned before, in my view, the distinguishing characteristic that one hopes to unveil through insight are dukkha, anicca and anatta, not sabhava. I don’t know what you mean by ‘western philosophical sense’. My argument against paramatha dhammas/sabhava has been influenced by the thinking of the madhyamaka philosophy which is not western. Metta Michael _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 28567 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 1:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Ken, Ken: Lets get into the discussion again, could you point to me which five khandhas that dont truly exist. They definitely truly exist but dependent on conditions. Michael: You see Ken, there is a fundamental contradiction in your affirmation, something that truly exists cannot be subject to conditions. Those are two mutually exclusive propositions. Just think of a more ‘concrete’ object. Lets say a table, a chair, etc. To say that any of those objects truly exist one has to identify something in those objects that make them what they are. But if you separate the parts of a table there is no table to be found in them. The table has nothing in it that can be taken as its ‘tableness’ that justifies the table being something in its own right. On the contrary, the table only exists because of the internal conditions (like its parts and the work which was put into making the table) and external conditions (our convention of naming it as a table and the use given to it). The exact same logic applies to the khandhas and to any other object or phenomena in the conditioned world. They don’t truly exist, they only exist as conditioned realities. Ken: To me there is a load of difference between what exist on its own right and what exists dependent on conditions. Michael: You are absolutely right. In the conditioned world there is nothing that exists in its own right. Except as fabrications in our ignorant mind. Everything depends and is subject to conditions. Metta Michael _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 28568 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 2:05am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hello Herman, Herman: To me, the problem lies in the formulation. To say that rupa x has characteristic x is flawed. Rupa x = characteristic x. Michael: This is a difficult area because our mind is so deluded in assuming that objects own their characteristics. A characteristic is a distinctive feature that distinguishes the object but it is a flaw to assume that such a characteristic is part of the object or inherent in the object. To be absolutely coherent with dependent arising it has to be said that the characteristic arises and ceases subject to conditions the same way as the object. Our minds will not easily accept that but it is important to see it that way to avoid grasping at any form of existence. Everything is conditioned and nothing is truly existent. Metta Michael 28569 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 2:44am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael M: You see Ken, there is a fundamental contradiction in your affirmation, something that truly exists cannot be subject to conditions. Those are two mutually exclusive propositions. Just think of a more ‘concrete’ object. Lets say a table, a chair, etc. To say that any of those objects truly exist one has to identify something in those objects that make them what they are. But if you separate the parts of a table there is no table to be found in them. The table has nothing in it that can be taken as its ‘tableness’ that justifies the table being something in its own right. On the contrary, the table only exists because of the internal conditions (like its parts and the work which was put into making the table) and external conditions (our convention of naming it as a table and the use given to it). The exact same logic applies to the khandhas and to any other object or phenomena in the conditioned world. They don’t truly exist, they only exist as conditioned realities k: Hmmm a chair or a table is not the same as five khandhas bc chairs and tables are mental constructs just like the self we have is a mental construct of the khandhas. Therefore not an equivalent comparision. Nevertheless lets talk about chair, even though the chair is gone but when we take out the parts, do the parts of the chair exist or do not exists. Can we say if the chair made of wood that wood does not exist? Breaking it down to atoms - does it exist. Even if atoms are energies, do they exist? Can such energy arise on its accord? Paramatthas are irreducible, hence by breaking the chair till energy is only consider the paramattha of a chair, hence I assume energy as irreducible for matter, then can we say that energy exist or can it exists on its own accord, or does it exist out of conditions. k: Hence I counter proposed how about feeling and ignorance. By using your logic of your discussion and assume feelings as chairs? Can feeling arise on its on accord? Definitely no. But the problem with your logic of argument is that feelings that is immaterial cannnot be broken down further. Similarly can ignorance be further reduce. But does ignorance exist, IMHO yes, as it is in the dependent origination but does it exist on it own or arise by uncaused? No. As I say before, I am as concern as you on this issue bc this will mean if you are right then I am not doing the right thing. Hence I will be very happy if you can illustrate to me on how do your logic you proposed on the chair can be apply on the five khandhas. kind regards Ken O 28570 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 2:58am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hi Michael With regard to this statement to Herman, "Everything is conditioned and nothing is truly existent." Firstly nothing truly exist will meant everything is nil, zero, nothing so how does something that do not exist can be conditioned. Secondly in another way of dicussion, Can you denied the existence of ignorance, rupas, feelings that are conditioned. Can we say here this feeling of mine do not exist bc it is conditioned? Then you should not be feeling pleasant or unpleasant bc even thuogh it is conditioned but it does not exist. kind regards Ken O 28571 From: ashkenn2k Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Hi Larry <> Salt is indeed conventional not a paramattha and only when salt is digested it becomes a nutriment (an 8 inseparable) for the body. So this is still applicable to daily life. Let me quote you from the commentary to Abhidhammattha Sangaha "Nutriment which is the viscous liquid of edible food understand as the essence of the fluid that flows through the various parts [of the body] acting as cause which substain the body and its faculties, is here called materiality of food" The usage of organic and inorganic can be confusing, let me quote you an example. Salt is inorganic so does the earth elememt of salt considered as inorganic? Likewise our body is organic does the earth element of our body considered organic. kind regards Ken O 28572 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 6:16am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Ken, Ken: a chair or a table is not the same as five khandhas bc chairs and tables are mental constructs just like the self we have is a mental construct of the khandhas Michael: Careful here, they are not just ‘mental constructs’ because this is equivalent to idealism, that things only exist in the mind. It is a thinking similar to the Yogacara school of Buddhism but it is not what the Buddha taught. All those things exist as conditioned realities, they perform their functions, you can sit on a chair, eat using a table, etc. There is no difference between khandhas and a table. They are all conditioned, arise and fall away. Ken: Nevertheless lets talk about chair, even though the chair is gone but when we take out the parts, do the parts of the chair exist or do not exists. Can we say if the chair made of wood that wood does not exist? Breaking it down to atoms - does it exist. Even if atoms are energies, do they exist? Can such energy arise on its accord? Michael: Yes, they all exist as conditioned realities, they don’t arise on their own accord. As conditioned realities they definitely exist. It is important to understand the difference between conditioned existence and inherent existence. Ken: Paramatthas are irreducible. But the problem with your logic of argument is that feelings that is immaterial cannnot be broken down further Michael: Nagasena in his dialogue with King Meandros used the example of a chariot, I have used the example of the table, but the idea is the same. Conditioned phenomena can be divided into parts and are subject to various kinds of conditions. Material or immaterial is really irrelevant, it is just our limitation in imagining those same principles applying to more abstract things. Now, if you say that paramathas are irreducible it means that they must have something different from the table. The table is conditioned and can be divided into parts. Why would this not apply to the paramathas? The only possible explanation is that the paramathas have something the table doesn’t. And what could that be? It can only be some kind of intrinsic nature, some own substance which not only cannot be further reduced but also is not subject to conditions, and hence you prove my point. Ken: I am as concern as you on this issue bc this will mean if you are right then I am not doing the right thing Michael: In my view as long as you regard the Abhidhamma as a map of the human psychology, that is safe ground. The moment the Abhidhamma is used to derive metaphysical concepts then there is a big danger of falling into the extremes of existence/non existence rejected by the Buddha. Metta Michael 28573 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 6:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hello Ken, Ken: With regard to this statement to Herman, "Everything is conditioned and nothing is truly existent." Firstly nothing truly exist will meant everything is nil, zero, nothing so how does something that do not exist can be conditioned Michael: Nothing truly exists means nothing exists by its own power, nothing has an intrinsic, inherent existence. But if you think about the table, the table is conditioned (I think we agreed on that) but it exists, it performs a number of functions, you can experience that, so therefore we say it exists as a conditioned phenomena. Metta Michael 28574 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 6:50am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael > Michael: > Careful here, they are not just ‘mental constructs’ because this is > equivalent to idealism, that things only exist in the mind. It is a > thinking similar to the Yogacara school of Buddhism but it is not > what the Buddha taught. All those things exist as conditioned realities, they perform their functions, you can sit on a chair, eat using a table, etc. There is no difference between khandhas and a table. They are all conditioned, arise and fall away. k: If a chair is not a mental construct then you should not say there is a chair, you should say this thing (chair) is of four legs, can made of wood, steel etc.. However I do not say that earth element of the chair does not exist. I do not know Yogacara very well but from what you say I can derive that they assume that materiality exist only in the mind. > Michael: > Yes, they all exist as conditioned realities, they don’t arise on > their own accord. As conditioned realities they definitely exist. It is important to understand the difference between conditioned existence and inherent existence. k: Yes that is what I am saying about sabhava, they all exist as conditioned realities. Inhernet existence which I have quoted you can meant two ways in the english meanings, either independent or a characteristic. If you choose to believe it is an independent existence then that is your choice which I feel as unfair to infer on what the commentary and Abhidhamma texts say as a characteristics. > Michael: > Nagasena in his dialogue with King Meandros used the example of a > chariot, I have used the example of the table, but the idea is the same. Conditioned phenomena can be divided into parts and are subject to various kinds of conditions. Material or immaterial is really irrelevant, it is just our limitation in imagining those same principles applying to more abstract things. Now, if you say that paramathas are irreducible it means that they must have something different from the table. The table is conditioned and can be divided into parts. Why would this not apply to the paramathas? The only possible explanation is that the paramathas have something the table doesn’t. And what could that be? It can only be some kind of intrinsic nature, some own substance which not only cannot be further reduced but also is not subject to conditions, and hence you prove my point. k: Please answer me this question if feelings can be further reduce, dont you think Buddha will have said it long time again. I like the chariot method used by Nagasena however, if you look at it, it was using chariot as a metaphor that describe the five aggregates but he does not break down the five aggregates bc I know he cannot. If Buddha did not further break it down, therefore I am confident you cannot neither does Nagarjuna. Furthermore you are comparing an apple with an orange. Bc table can be reduce but paramathas cannot. No where in the sutta Buddha say that feelings are make of this and that. There are 108 types of feelings but there are not 108 parts of feeling. The reason that paramathas cannot be reduced anymore does not imply that it exist on its own right without caused. I have given you two quotes from commentary that shown sabhava that are sunna and condition. Also bc you assumed that the commentary and Abhidhamma sabhava as an independent entity, I would like to request your kindself to furnish me an example in these texts. kind regards Ken O 28575 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 6:54am Subject: Paramatha Dhammas and Concepts “There has to be the clear distinction between concepts and ‘paramattha dhammas’ (ultimate realities). We *think* there are conventional things. In truth they don’t exist except in our imaginations.” This seems to be a prevalent thinking among the Abhidhamma aficionados. The teachings of the Buddha, in his own words, should be regarded as a middle way. I would advance that there are two middle ways the Buddha refers to. The first is in relation to conduct, and it has recently been explored in a series of mails in relation to sila, precepts, etc. The second middle way refers to the philosophical content of the teachings. The distinction between concepts and paramatha dhammas, mentioned above, points towards a philosophical middle way which is similar to someone with a perfectly normal average temperature having the upper body in the freezer and the lower body in the oven. Concepts, considered as something that only exist in the imagination point towards idealism, or in other words that things do not exist except in our minds and this is the extreme of non existence rejected by the Buddha. On the other hand the idea of paramatha dhammas point towards something that truly exists, that is an ultimate reality, or in other words it has some kind of element which is inherent. This is the extreme of existence rejected by the Buddha. Therefore combining two extremes one expects to arrive at a philosophical middle way. This is not what the Buddha had in mind. The philosophical middle way proposed by the Buddha is the application of conditionality to all phenomena without any exclusion whatsoever. So called paramatha dhammas and concepts have exactly the same nature, they are conditioned, subject to arising and cessation. And if there is conditionality, essence and ultimate realities do not apply. The ultimate reality is that there is no ultimate reality. Metta Michael Metta Michael 28576 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:02am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hi Michael > Michael: > Nothing truly exists means nothing exists by its own power, nothing > has an intrinsic, inherent existence. But if you think about the table, the table is conditioned (I think we agreed on that) but it exists, it performs a number of functions, you can experience that, so therefore we say it exists as a conditioned phenomena. k: Ah Michael when you say a table perfroms a number of functions, doesn't these functions are characteristics of the table. Can we say a table exist without these functions vice versa can these functions exist without the table. Inherent can be define as existing as an essential constituent or characteristic. Ain't you just define that the table has intrinsic existence. Can you deny that if these functions are not of the table, then these characteristic should not be performed, then it should not a table at all. A table functions can only be manifested when there is table, so this is the same as what it is meant as intrinsic or inherent characteristics. kind regards Ken O 28577 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:11am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Ken, Ken: Please answer me this question if feelings can be further reduce, dont you think Buddha will have said it long time again. I like the chariot method used by Nagasena however, if you look at it, it was using chariot as a metaphor that describe the five aggregates but he does not break down the five aggregates bc I know he cannot. If Buddha did not further break it down, therefore I am confident you cannot neither does Nagarjuna. Furthermore you are comparing an apple with an orange. Bc table can be reduce but paramathas cannot. Michael: The purpose of the teachings of the Buddha was not ontological but the end of suffering. For this purpose the five khandhas are more than enough for the majority of the people. Sariputta was capable of reducing it further to cetasikas but he was an exception. Can there be further reduction beyond cetasikas? There has to be otherwise the cetasika is not conditioned and becomes a paramatha with some kind of essence, and this contradicts dependent origination. Apples and oranges are not the same but they are also conditioned and can be reduced. How far can they be reduced? Modern science is still struggling with this, so there is no answer. Metta Michael 28578 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:18am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hello Ken, Ken: A table functions can only be manifested when there is table, so this is the same as what it is meant as intrinsic or inherent characteristics. Michael: The functions of a table is a matter of convention. Someone may use it for eating while other who never saw a table before may think it is a bed and so on. Function has nothing to do with intrinsic characteristic. Metta Michael 28579 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:22am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Dear James, We are in agreement about the importance of the Vinaya and about the Buddha making a wise decision in creating and implementing it. We can't help but be enormously thankful to him for establishing the Sangha and the rules by which it is organized. The gratitude extends to the Sangha, who have lived the Vinaya and preserved the teachings for these many centuries. In my opinion, Buddha did not make a mistake for creating rules to govern and preserve the sangha. If he had not done so, I don't think we'd have ever heard the word "Buddha" or "Dhamma". I also concur with your observation that "...that the Buddhist layperson's concept of the `Middle Way' has veered too much to the pleasure end of the spectrum," at least with many in the West. This is especially true of those who have little exposure to Buddhism beyond Zhuang-zi. Yeah, yeah, Zhuang-zi is not Buddhist, but there is something deeply attractive to the Western counterculture about words like: "Leave off, leave off this teaching men virtue! Dangerous, dangerous to mark off the ground and run! Fool, fool -- don't spoil my walking! I walk a crooked way -- don't step on my feet....All men know the use of the useful, but nobody knows the use of the useless." And then, they read S. Suzuki [Zen], "The best way to control people is to encourage them to be mischievous....First let them do what they want, and watch them. This is the best policy." The conclusion? "Cool! Buddhism is about breaking free from social constraints. I'm a Buddhist. Pass me the bong!" This would a gross misconception of the Middle Way. In fact, it is one of the extremes that the Middle Way is intended to avoid. The other extreme is that notion that the path consists of rule following (provided, of course, that the rules are good ones!) The path is straight and narrow -- so straight and narrow that it is quite difficult to stay on it for more than a few moments every now and then. And the path is only tread on when there is no effort to follow rules. Please don't read this as saying that throwing out rules puts one on the path, only that when on the path there is no thought of following any rules or rituals. You write: "You keep emphasizing in this thread that the following of rules, without an understanding of them, isn't going to create wisdom." What I'm trying to emphasize is that wisdom is not the result of following a formula or list of rules, and that the 8fp (="Middle Way") is the narrow path to wisdom and purification. The "understanding" I keep bringing up is not "understanding of the rules" but understanding the nature of reality. When there is understanding, the path is followed. When there is no understanding, the path is not followed. At most moments of the day, for most of us there is no understanding and no following of the path. This remains true whether we are sitting quietly in an intensive meditation retreat, studying Abhidhamma, discussing Dhamma with wise teachers, doing good deeds in the community, or doing whatever else we may be doing. A danger in looking at the path as a set of rules or instructions is that it becomes quite easy to conjure up a person who is trying to follow these rules so is on the path. An example: Suppose the notoriously fictitious Nadsemaj sits down to meditate for one hour in the morning. Is he really following the path during that hour simply by virtue of his sitting and trying? If you imagine a person sitting there putting out all that effort with the intention of purifying the mind, it is easy to imagine that he is treading the path. And vice versa -- If you imagine the path to be a set of rules or instructions that include such things as "sit quietly, legs crossed, keep the attention focused on the area between the upper lip and the nostrils, ...", then it is natural to envision this person who is following the instructions and is therefore following the path. But there is no room on the path for a "person", whether that "person" "follows directions" or not! Instead... At which moments does the path arise? "Hmmm... Not now because the mind is wandering (uddhacca). Not now because there is irritation at the talking in the back of the room (dosa). Not now because there is a wondering whether anyone notices how still I'm sitting (mana). Not now because I want this monkey mind to calm down so I can enjoy real peace (lobha). Oh! NOW there is because this sensation of illumination must be the path (moha -> not now either)." How important it is to understand what is and what is not the path! If it is misconceived, it will not be properly recognized or followed. You follow your previous comments immediately with some questions: "So,is the alternative better? Let people do whatever they want? Is that going to create wisdom?" Of course not! Junking rules of civilized behavior and cultivation of mental discipline in favor of officially hiring lobha and dosa as masters is not recommended! Rules and instructions are extremely valuable and important because they help support an organized and civil society and an organized and civil mind. I'd even go so far to say that the rules and instructions can help keep us in the vicinity of the path by taking some of the edge off the quasi-ubiquitous akusala moments encountered throughout the day. BUT this is distinctly different from the path or from saying that conscientiously following the rules and instructions give rise to the path. You close your comments with: "The Vinaya is for the well being of the sangha. Some monks will understand the wisdom of the rules and some won't, but that doesn't mean they all shouldn't follow them." Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu! I concur 100%. Dan 28580 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:32am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael k: I like immediate response ;-) cheers. > > Michael: > The purpose of the teachings of the Buddha was not ontological but > the end of suffering. k: Definitely the it is about end of suffering. I puzzled, I thought you are the one who started this ontological question that sabhava is a being. M: For this purpose the five khandhas are more than enough for the majority of the people. Sariputta was capable of reducing it further to cetasikas but he was an exception. Can there be further reduction beyond cetasikas? There has to be otherwise the cetasika is not conditioned and becomes a paramatha with some kind of essence, and this contradicts dependent origination. Apples and oranges are not the same but they are also conditioned and can be reduced. How far can they be reduced? Modern science is still struggling with this, so there is no answer. k: Ah Micheal please note that cetasikas are khandhas and not further reduction of khandhas. When you say cetasikas contradicts dependent origination then there is no dependent origination to start with at all bc ignorance, feelings are all cetasikas. Also the principle of dependent origination is about conditionality. If you look at those anicent text that it does not say feelings can start on it own, neither does it say that characteristics of feelings can start on its own. It does say feelings exist due to conditionality. kind regards Ken O 28581 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:39am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hi Michael > Michael: > The functions of a table is a matter of convention. Someone may use > it for eating while other who never saw a table before may think it is a bed and so on. Function has nothing to do with intrinsic characteristic. k: If they do not perform these functions, then dont you think a table is practically of no used. Then in the first place we also cannot say it is a table bc it does not have distinct functions to start with. All these functions as you mention that are a matter of convention like eating or bed or even making as an music instructment (if imaginations are good) are also manifested by the fact that there is a table there. A table got to have existence before any functions can be performed. Just like a feelings got to be existed before pain or not pain can be experience. And this also proved another point that table is a construct bc some pple may used it as a bed, so it should not a table. kind regards Ken O 28582 From: ashkenn2k Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:46am Subject: Re: anapanasati 9 c Hi Nina Sorry to bother you, as I was pasting these notes by you into one file I seem cannot find anapanasati 9b or the numbering is wrong, 9c should be 9b. kind regards Ken O 28583 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 8:02am Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept [Christine] Hi Christine, It's nice to hear back from you! I know that you seriously wrestle with the Dhamma and really aren't the type to go looking for loopholes, and I apologize if sounded like I thought that's what you were doing. As to "consciousness of there being a living creature", I find it hard to fathom that intending to kill a living being and then actually killing it would not constitute immoral action, even if there is not certain knowledge of the being. The examples of M-A pill, bombardier, and mosquito killer who doesn't believe mosquitos qualify as "living beings" come to mind. In his comments in Asl., after discussing the five criteria you listed, writes: "Those desirous of details should look up the Saamantapaasaadikaa, the Commentary on the Vinaya." There may be a discussion about what that "knowledge" criterion really means. I like Sarah's comments about it: "Let's put it this way: a sotapanna would have no thought of killing or encouraging others to do so, regardless of whether there is certain knowledge that there is life in the area about to be bombed or in the womb. Abstention (virati) from killing refers to abstention from taking any action intended to take life as I understand." And "If life isn't taken the action is not completed. However, we read that through the mind-door, 'the mere harbouring of criminal intent to kill amounts to kamma, and that by ill-will, not by actual life-taking.' (Atth.Part11, ch 1V). Personally, I don't think we can or need to always pinpoint what is akusala and what is akusala kamma patha. It's more important to develop panna to understand the various namas and rupas regardless of the actions at these times." > So, the intention to kill (the ordering of and the dropping of bombs > on houses) is akusala and will create akusala accumulations (?) - > even though it may or may not break the Precept (depending on whether > there are beings killed)? I wonder what "the precept" means? Doesn't "precept" mean some sort of pledge or stated committment? If I pledge not to kill living beings, isn't my understanding of "kill" and "living being" central to my pledge (i.e. the precept I actually take)? Hmmmm... This is sounding a bit too philosophical for me! > If the Precept is only against actual > killing - then anything less than the death of a being (such as > hurting, disabling) doesn't break it? That seems right. > Intentions and mind states are the important things within > Christianity and are equivalent to completed actions. The Lord Jesus > said: "You have heard that it was said to people long ago, 'Do not > murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' > 'But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be > subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca', > [shows contempt] is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who > says 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." > > Does the Lord Buddha say anything like this? Interesting question. Buddha does say that volition is kamma, and that volition rooted in dosa is akusala, and that bad kamma risks akusala-vipaka. And isn't akusala-vipaka hellish? Metta, Dan 28584 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 8:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Howard] Great comments, Howard, but where did the "mere" come from in "mere rules and rituals"? I don't see it in the Pali. Do you throw it in because you are resistant to the idea of dropping an attachment to rules and rituals? And I have no disagreement whatsoever with your comment: "To observe rules that are useful and well given and that, when followed, can have auspicious consequences is simply good sense." If one were to say: "it is a bad idea to follow sensible rules," I'd be sorely tempted to respond with, "You fool!" and risk suffering the fires of hell. Also, you write: "But, certainly he didn't teach actions for 45 years (in sutta and vinaya) only to advise against these actions." Right again! Did I write anything that suggest otherwise? Please help me find such a comment so I can correct it! Metta and mudita, Dan 28585 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 8:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hello Ken, Ken, I rest my case. I don't think my arguments were good enough to convince you. It is my lack of skill. I wish you be happy and will talk again in the future. Metta Michael >From: Kenneth Ong >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation >Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:02:18 +0000 (GMT) > >Hi Michael > > > > Michael: > > Nothing truly exists means nothing exists by its own power, nothing > > has an intrinsic, inherent existence. But if you think about the >table, the table is conditioned (I think we agreed on that) but it >exists, it performs a number of functions, you can experience that, >so therefore we say it exists as a conditioned phenomena. > >k: Ah Michael when you say a table perfroms a number of functions, >doesn't these functions are characteristics of the table. Can we say >a table exist without these functions vice versa can these functions >exist without the table. Inherent can be define as existing as an >essential constituent or characteristic. Ain't you just define that >the table has intrinsic existence. Can you deny that if these >functions are not of the table, then these characteristic should not >be performed, then it should not a table at all. A table functions >can only be manifested when there is table, so this is the same as >what it is meant as intrinsic or inherent characteristics. > > >kind regards >Ken O 28586 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 8:54am Subject: "Kamada" was (Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood ) Hi Dan, Some of the things you wrote in this post really cracked me up!;-)) I like your sense of humor. However, your position on this matter is perplexing to me. You basically agree with everything I wrote about the importance of the Vinaya and following rules but then state "And the path is only tread on when there is no effort to follow rules." What? It seems to me like you are trying to have it both ways. Also, I think your definition of `path' is far too narrow. By your definition, only arahants are the ones following the path. The path is not the goal and the path is a gradual one that meets people where they are. Now, about the example you gave of your fictitious meditator "Nadsemaj" (JamesDan backwards…cute;-) yes I do believe that he is following the path by sitting in meditation for one hour, even with all the inappropriate mind junk he encounters. Okay, here I go again! (James the Poster Boy for meditation practice! ;- )). Since we have now moved onto the Devaputtasamyutta for those in the SN study group, I will quote a sutta from there: SN II, 6(6) "Kamada" At Savatthi. Standing to one side, the young deva Kamada said to the Blessed One: "Hard to do, Blessed One! Very hard to do, Blessed One" 149 "They do even what is hard to do, [O Kamada," said the Blessed One,] "The trainees endowed with virtue, steadfast. For one who has entered the homeless life Contentment brings along happiness." "That is hard to gain, Blessed One, namely contentment." "They gain even what is hard to gain, [O Kamada," said the Blessed One,] "Who delight in calming the mind, Whose minds, day and night, Take delight in development." "That is hard to concentrate, Blessed One, namely, the mind." "They concentrate even what is hard to concentrate, [O Kamada," said the Blessed One,] "Who delight in calming the faculties. Having cut through the net of Death, The noble ones, O Kamada, go their way." "The path is impassable and uneven, Blessed One."150 "Though the path is impassable and uneven, The noble ones walk it, Kamada. The ignoble ones fall down head first, Right there on the uneven path, But the path of the noble ones is even, For the noble are even amidst the uneven." Note 149: Spk: This young deva, it is said, had been a meditator in a previous life, but he had thick defilements and thus could suppress them only with much effort. Though he did the work of an ascetic, because his supporting conditions were weak he passed away and took rebirth in the deva world without having reached the plane of the noble ones. He came to the Blessed One's presence to proclaim the difficulty of the ascetic life. Note 150: Spk: Although the noble path is neither impassable nor uneven (duggamo visamo) this is said because there are many impediments in the preliminary portion of the path. This wasn't really much of a pep talk by the Buddha but he didn't give pep talks, he just told it like it is. Yes, meditation is difficult but the noble ones do it even though it is difficult. There are no guarantees of success. I identify a lot with Kamada because meditation is difficult for me also; I believe I have a lot of defilements. But that is no reason to stop or whine about it, I just continue to do it. Over the years I have seen slow but steady progress. Dan, if you don't want to meditate then don't. If you think that to practice meditation is just following silly rules, okay. Think what you want and do what you want. I will continue to follow the rules as well as I can because I see the wisdom of them, not because anyone is forcing me to. If you think I am wrong, okay (my parents think I am wrong too so you are in good company! ;-)). Metta, James 28587 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 9:51am Subject: "Kamada" was (Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood ) James, I have only a few moments to write now, but I'll write more later. "Path" is a technical term, and it is important to understand clearly what it means. Lots of things may be good things to do and not be "path". Dan 28588 From: Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Michael - In a message dated 1/2/04 4:54:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Michael: > You see Ken, there is a fundamental contradiction in your affirmation, > something that truly exists cannot be subject to conditions. Those are two > mutually exclusive propositions. Just think of a more ‘concrete’ object. > Lets say a table, a chair, etc. To say that any of those objects truly exist > > one has to identify something in those objects that make them what they are. > > But if you separate the parts of a table there is no table to be found in > them. The table has nothing in it that can be taken as its ‘tableness’ that > > justifies the table being something in its own right. On the contrary, the > table only exists because of the internal conditions (like its parts and the > > work which was put into making the table) and external conditions (our > convention of naming it as a table and the use given to it). The exact same > logic applies to the khandhas and to any other object or phenomena in the > conditioned world. They don’t truly exist, they only exist as conditioned > realities. > ========================== Actually, Michael, I think you may have just perfectly hit on the distinction between pa~n~natti and paramattha dhamma! You wrote "To say that any of those objects truly exist one has to identify something in those objects that make them what they are. But if you separate the parts of a table there is no table to be found in them. The table has nothing in it that can be taken as its ‘tableness’ that justifies the table being something in its own right." Now what you say here is quite correct. Actually, there is no table at all, except as the intended but not actually existing referent of a thought constructed from numerous experiences. However, what you said does not apply to a paramattha dhamma such as a hardness. There *are* no parts to a hardness. To find a hardness, there are no parts to look in. It simply is an arising and ceasing condition, a phenomenon. And while there is no "tableness" to be found in a so called table or in any of its parts, there *is* "hardness" to be found in hardness - it is the hardness, itself! A hardness is a condition that, when arisen, exists. But it doesn't exist on its own, or from its own side, because its very existence is completely dependent on the coming together of other conditions, and, so, it is a "dependent existent". Now I don't know what *you* mean by "true existence". If you mean independent existence, well, there is no such thing, which I know is a proposition with which you concur. The only *true* existence, actually, is dependent existence. Hardness is a dependent existent, and it is such that it is distinguishable (though not separable from or independent of) other dependent existents. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28589 From: Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Hi, Ken and Larry - In a message dated 1/2/04 8:00:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Salt is indeed conventional not a paramattha and only when salt is > digested it becomes a nutriment (an 8 inseparable) for the body. So > this is still applicable to daily life. > > Let me quote you from the commentary to Abhidhammattha Sangaha > "Nutriment which is the viscous liquid of edible food understand as > the essence of the fluid that flows through the various parts [of the > body] acting as cause which substain the body and its faculties, is > here called materiality of food" > =========================== Of course salt is pa~n~natti. But from the quote you give here, Ken, from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, so is nutrition!! And this is one of the problems I have with parts of Abhidhamma and some of the commentaries, namely *lots* of merely conventional objects, like nutrition, life faculty, femininity, and masculinity being treated as actual phenomena (paramattha dhammas). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28590 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Howard, I generally agree with what you say, and from what I saw in your messages so far I think we have much more to agree on than to disagree. The only exception I would make in relation to this message is that I don’t see a reason why the so called paramatha dhammas, like your example of hardness, cannot be divided into parts. I know it is not possible to realize this with our normal senses, but my view is that since more concrete conditioned objects can be divided almost indefinitely (science is still trying to find how far this can go) I don’t see why this should not be applied to all dhammas. If we can realize that more concrete conditioned dhammas can be divided into parts, one can infer that the breakdown into parts is a characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. If you say hardness cannot be subdivided there is an assumption that this is as far as it goes, and that implies some kind of enduring thing in that hardness which does not allow for further reduction, and that in my view is almost the same as arguing for an essence. Metta Michael >========================== > Actually, Michael, I think you may have just perfectly hit on the >distinction between pa~n~natti and paramattha dhamma! You wrote "To say >that any >of those objects truly exist one has to identify something in those objects >that make them what they are. But if you separate the parts of a table >there is >no table to be found in >them. The table has nothing in it that can be taken as its ‘tableness’ >that >justifies the table being something in its own right." Now what you say >here >is quite correct. Actually, there is no table at all, except as the >intended >but not actually existing referent of a thought constructed from numerous >experiences. > However, what you said does not apply to a paramattha dhamma such >as a >hardness. There *are* no parts to a hardness. To find a hardness, there are >no parts to look in. It simply is an arising and ceasing condition, a >phenomenon. And while there is no "tableness" to be found in a so called >table or in >any of its parts, there *is* "hardness" to be found in hardness - it is the >hardness, itself! A hardness is a condition that, when arisen, exists. But >it >doesn't exist on its own, or from its own side, because its very existence >is >completely dependent on the coming together of other conditions, and, so, >it is a >"dependent existent". Now I don't know what *you* mean by "true existence". >If >you mean independent existence, well, there is no such thing, which I know >is >a proposition with which you concur. The only *true* existence, actually, >is >dependent existence. Hardness is a dependent existent, and it is such that >it >is distinguishable (though not separable from or independent of) other >dependent existents. > >With metta, >Howard 28591 From: Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Howard] Hi, Dan - In a message dated 1/2/04 11:17:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, dalthor p@s... writes: > Great comments, Howard, but where did the "mere" come from in "mere > rules and rituals"? I don't see it in the Pali. Do you throw it in > because you are resistant to the idea of dropping an attachment to > rules and rituals? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I know little Pali, Dan. I've seen this rendered as "mere rules and rituals," and simply assumed that was correct. As far as being resistent to dropping rules and rituals, well, no, my unfortunate inclination tends more in the opposite direction! ;-) -------------------------------------------------- > > And I have no disagreement whatsoever with your comment: "To observe > rules that are useful and well given and that, when followed, can > have auspicious consequences is simply good sense." If one were to > say: "it is a bad idea to follow sensible rules," I'd be sorely > tempted to respond with, "You fool!" and risk suffering the fires of > hell. > > Also, you write: "But, certainly he didn't teach actions for 45 years > (in sutta and vinaya) only to advise against these actions." Right > again! Did I write anything that suggest otherwise? Please help me > find such a comment so I can correct it! > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I didn't presume you were throwing out the baby with the bath water. I was merely trying to do my part in distinguishing the two. --------------------------------------------------- > > Metta and mudita, > > Dan > > ====================== And to you, metta and mudita, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28592 From: Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Michael - In a message dated 1/2/04 3:11:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > > Hello Howard, > > I generally agree with what you say, and from what I saw in your messages so > > far I think we have much more to agree on than to disagree. The only > exception I would make in relation to this message is that I don’t see a > reason why the so called paramatha dhammas, like your example of hardness, > cannot be divided into parts. I know it is not possible to realize this with > > our normal senses, but my view is that since more concrete conditioned > objects can be divided almost indefinitely (science is still trying to find > how far this can go) I don’t see why this should not be applied to all > dhammas. If we can realize that more concrete conditioned dhammas can be > divided into parts, one can infer that the breakdown into parts is a > characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. If you say hardness cannot be > subdivided there is an assumption that this is as far as it goes, and that > implies some kind of enduring thing in that hardness which does not allow > for further reduction, and that in my view is almost the same as arguing for > > an essence. > > Metta > Michael > ============================ If I could be unequivocallly shown that phenomena such as hardnesses are compounded from (and not just conditioned by) other phenomena, then I would become a Gelugpa (as I'm guessing you are, or have an affinity for), and I would adopt a thoroughgoing concept-only perspective. (But I don't anticipate being so shown. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28593 From: robmoult Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 1:06pm Subject: I'm Back! Hi Friends, Metta, Rob M :-) 28594 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 1:18pm Subject: Re: I'm Back! G'day RobM, :-) Happy New Year! How was Canada? A little cooler than KL, I expect? Getting right down to business :-)... care to browse the "Contraception and the First Precept" Thread, and see if you have anything to add? Starts at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28504 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Friends, > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 28595 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 1:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Howard] Dear Howard, I was wondering about the "mere" because I recall seeing "[mere] rules and rituals", and I took the [mere] as a modern add-on to help counter the inevitable, post-modern, "well, throw the rules out then!" response to the notion of silabbataparamasa. With much appreciation, Dan 28596 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 3:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Howard, Howard: If I could be unequivocallly shown that phenomena such as hardnesses are compounded from (and not just conditioned by) other phenomena, then I would become a Gelugpa (as I'm guessing you are, or have an affinity for), and I would adopt a thoroughgoing concept-only perspective. (But I don't anticipate being so shown. ;-) Michael: The more I think about the idea of phenomena as a composite the less sense it makes that such a composite can be subdivided only up to a certain point. What could justify no further decomposition? Only the assumption that a certain level of true existence has been reached. But on the other hand a correct understanding of conditionality negates the possibility of any kind of true existence of any conditioned dhammas. Therefore in my mind it only makes sense to consider all phenomena as compounded (without the possibility of pointing towards and end to the decomposition) and subject to conditionality. I am not a follower of any of the Tibetan Buddhist schools. I started as a Theravadin and still feel very identified with the teachings of the Canon. I like to take large doses of the suttas and a few pinches of the abhidhamma. But yes, I have read a couple of very good books on Madhyamaka and have found that there is a direct link to the teachings of the Suttas. I don’t know what you mean by ‘concept only’ but this does not sound as madhyamaka and more like yogacara, which I am not very fond of. Metta Michael 28597 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 3:07pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Robert, Good to be reading you directly, though I read everything you write. It would look from what you wrote, that killing in a Buddhist sense is rendering the body in such a state that it cannot support consciousness. I am very happy to accept this, and leave it at that. The above has raised some questions, purely questions of interest, not questions of doubt, and if you would see benefit in it, I would appreciate your, and anyone else's take on the questions. In the Buddhist scheme of things, are consciousness and corporeality (body) necessarily co-dependant? (I'm thinking about beings of an arupa and rupa nature) My understanding of Paticca Samuppada is that the mind precedes the body, and that the mind is not subject to killing and death. Would the rendering of a body so that it could not support consciousness have any effect at all on the Rebirth thought that brought the body about? All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" > wrote: > > > > Is it the Buddhist viewpoint that a sperm is not a living thing? > > That would be a bit arbitrary, don't you think? > > > ========== > Dear Herman, > In fact it is in the Buddhist viewpoint that sperm is not living. > Buddhist texts say that once the `blood'[egg] from the mother mix > with the matter{sperm] from the father then consciousness may > arise. "It amounts to no more than a drop of cream of ghee on a > single fibre of a new-born [kid's] wool, and is known as the embryo > in the first stage" (Visuddhimagga XVII 152). > > As I read the text new consciouness can arise with this matter at > any time once the sperm has begun to enter the egg. It could be > immediately or it could be hours later or possibly in rare > situations even days later. But there has to be first the mixing of > the sperm with the egg. Before that the egg or sperm alone is not a > suitable support for consciousness. > So in the case of the morning after pill there is no problem from a > buddhist perspective when it works to stop sperm meeting egg. > The possible killing only occurs if the sperm has already penetrated > the egg and then it still depends on whether a new being is present. > So one who takes the pill would not know whether they are killing or > not. If they take it an hour or 2 after sex then the odds are it > would stop conception before sperm had met egg. But it is taken up > to 2-3 days after sex and at that stage the odds are higher that a > new life is present. > robertk 28598 From: Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Michael - In a message dated 1/2/04 6:05:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > > Hello Howard, > > Howard: > If I could be unequivocallly shown that phenomena such as hardnesses > are compounded from (and not just conditioned by) other phenomena, then I > would > become a Gelugpa (as I'm guessing you are, or have an affinity for), and I > would adopt a thoroughgoing concept-only perspective. (But I don't > anticipate > being so shown. ;-) > > Michael: > The more I think about the idea of phenomena as a composite the less sense > it makes that such a composite can be subdivided only up to a certain point. > > What could justify no further decomposition? Only the assumption that a > certain level of true existence has been reached. But on the other hand a > correct understanding of conditionality negates the possibility of any kind > of true existence of any conditioned dhammas. Therefore in my mind it only > makes sense to consider all phenomena as compounded (without the possibility > > of pointing towards and end to the decomposition) and subject to > conditionality. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: But what are any of a hardness or a pleasant feeling or an anger composed of? -------------------------------------------------- > > I am not a follower of any of the Tibetan Buddhist schools. I started as a > Theravadin and still feel very identified with the teachings of the Canon. I > > like to take large doses of the suttas and a few pinches of the abhidhamma. > But yes, I have read a couple of very good books on Madhyamaka and have > found that there is a direct link to the teachings of the Suttas. I don’t > know what you mean by ‘concept only’ but this does not sound as madhyamaka > and more like yogacara, which I am not very fond of. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh! Interesting! I'm very much of a yogacarin my self - or, better, a Theravadin with a Yogacarin overlay! ;-)) My phenomenalist take on things makes me a natural vijnanavadin. The reason I mentioned Gelugpa is that their position seems to be that of their being no paramattha dhammas, and of every "existent" being a merely conventional existent. But forget about Gelugpa. It doesn't matter. --------------------------------------------------- > > Metta > Michael > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28599 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 4:08pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Sarah, Rest assured that I look forward to comments from everyone, no invitation required. My quoting of the Udana sutta was purely in relation to the question of the M-A pill, not about "seclusion and inactivity" which is a hobby horse of mine, and the Buddha's from all appearances. There is another Udana sutta, namely 2.8 as found at http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/udn/udn2.htm which might be relevant to the issues surrounding conception and contraception. It is the story of Suppavasa, who after being childless for seven years ends up in labour for seven days and finally bears a healthy child. The Buddha and his followers are fed by Suppavasa for seven days during which the following occurs. And Suppavâsa said to herself; "My son is conversing with the 'Captain of the Faith' (Sariputta)." And she rejoiced exceedingly and became enraptured and was filled with joy. And the Blessed One said to Suppavâsa, the daughter of Koliya; "Suppavâsa, would you have another son such as this one?" "I would have, Blessed One, seven other sons such as this one." And the Blessed One, in this connection, on that occasion, breathed forth this solemn utterance:-- "Joylessness in the guise of joy, delight in the guise of misery, Pain in the guise of happiness, take possession of the thoughtless". As to the question of following precepts, the Udana provides a very counter-intuitive example. Udana 3.6 tells of a monk who was in the habit of reviling other monks and calling them outcasts. This was brought to the attention of the Buddha who found no fault in the bahaviour, but exclaimed "From whom no deceit or pride proceeds, In whom avarice is annihilated, Who has got rid of the notion 'this is mine', Who is passionless and has put away wrath, Who is freed from all cares, That Bhikkhu is a Brahmana and a Samana." All the best to you, Sarah, and Jon, and keep up the great work with dsg. Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Herman, > > --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Christine, > > > > What do you reckon about this ? > > > > From the Udana 1 as found at > > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/udn/udn1.htm > .... > I know you weren't asking my opinion, but you may find it interesting (or > not;-)) to look at the commentary details I included about Sangamaji > before: > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11897.html > > You've mentioned in your other discussions that:`a far better indicator of > what a person believes is what they do. What a person does is a teaching > of what they believe.' This is a good point and as Dan has emphasised > `part of the fruit of understanding is that there is a decrease in > attachment...' and so on. We can test the teachings for ourselves. > However, I think the Udana you quote from above is an excellent example of > how others with their own views may interpret such actions and changes in > a very different manner. > > This is a bit of a hobby-horse of mine at the moment, in case anyone > hasn't noticed;-) Also, I don't think the point of the sutta is to suggest > that we should all follow a lifestyle of `seclusion and inactivity' to > create better opportunities for insight into the Dhamma. The practice > (patipatti) you refer to elsewhere is the understanding of conditioned > realities and the danger of attachment. I'll sign off with another sutta > relevant for a few of your threads. > > Very good banner examples btw, Herman;-) ;-) Happy NY to all your family. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn05-005.html > > Then, having understood that "This is Mara the Evil One," she replied to > him in verses: > > "If even a hundred-thousand rapists > came across me like this, > I wouldn't stir a hair. > I'd feel no terror," > > More discussion when we get to Bhikkhuni samyutta (SN5), I'm sure. > ============================================= 28600 From: Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Sarah: "Hmmm..... I agree with this to some extent. At the same time, if we are always looking for novel ways to use the terms which accord with our very limited daily life knowledge and wisdom, we're at risk of never getting a correct theoretical handle on how the terms are intended." Hi Sarah, I agree but I wasn't aiming for novelty but rather a way to find what this concept is point-to in my experience. Otherwise, it will never be more than theory. Larry 28601 From: Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Hi Ken O, I think it is a matter of what is helpful for satipatthana. If you want some salt, you could think, "I want some white hardness called salt" or, " I want some white hardness that is a pure octad produced by temperature called salt." Or maybe you might think, "I want some concept." Larry 28602 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 4:33pm Subject: Re: Selective presentation(was Contraception and the First Precept) Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > However, I think the Udana you quote from above is an excellent example of > how others with their own views may interpret such actions and changes in > a very different manner. > > This is a bit of a hobby-horse of mine at the moment, in case anyone > hasn't noticed;-) I just noticed something. None of the three Udana suttas that I quoted in my last post ie 1.8, 2.8 and 3.6, get a mention on accesstoinsight. To me, such selective presentation of material could indicate the holding of a number of beliefs held by those who run that site. I think that when presenting a case, the whole case needs to be presented, not just the case for the defense. Because we all tend to adhere more or less strongly to our "own" perspective, unless there is a diversity of perspective, there can be no recognition of just how hamstrung attachment to a particular belief makes us. DSG is great in that respect. Plenty of differing views. All the best Herman 28603 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 5:16pm Subject: Re: Selective presentation(was Contraception and the First Precept) Hello Herman, and all, I think John Bullitt's reasons are honestly explained in the two links below. The question gets a little more complicated ... like - why are some suttas supporting some practice styles translated and made easily available for the large numbers of westerners enquiring about Buddhism, and some not. Partiality of the translator? oh, no - couldn't be! How do you decide which texts to include on the website? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/faq.html#include ** don't ever expect to see the Third basket of the Canon on ATI. Why don't you have translations of ALL the suttas from the Pali Canon? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/faq.html#gimmemore metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > wrote: > > However, I think the Udana you quote from above is an excellent > example of > > how others with their own views may interpret such actions and > changes in > > a very different manner. > > > > This is a bit of a hobby-horse of mine at the moment, in case > anyone > > hasn't noticed;-) > > I just noticed something. None of the three Udana suttas that I > quoted in my last post ie 1.8, 2.8 and 3.6, get a mention on > accesstoinsight. To me, such selective presentation of material > could indicate the holding of a number of beliefs held by those who > run that site. > > I think that when presenting a case, the whole case needs to be > presented, not just the case for the defense. Because we all tend to > adhere more or less strongly to our "own" perspective, unless there > is a diversity of perspective, there can be no recognition of just > how hamstrung attachment to a particular belief makes us. > > DSG is great in that respect. Plenty of differing views. > > > All the best > > > Herman 28604 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 5:38pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Good to be reading you directly, though I read everything you write. > > It would look from what you wrote, that killing in a Buddhist sense > is rendering the body in such a state that it cannot support > consciousness. > > I am very happy to accept this, and leave it at that. > > The above has raised some questions, purely questions of interest, > not questions of doubt, and if you would see benefit in it, I would > appreciate your, and anyone else's take on the questions. > > In the Buddhist scheme of things, are consciousness and corporeality > (body) necessarily co-dependant? (I'm thinking about beings of an > arupa and rupa nature) > > My understanding of Paticca Samuppada is that the mind precedes the > body, and that the mind is not subject to killing and death. Would > the rendering of a body so that it could not support consciousness > have any effect at all on the Rebirth thought that brought the body > about? > > All the best =========== Dear Herman, According to the texts beings in the arupa plane do not have body and live very long lives - aeons- and there are no killers in these planes. They cannot be killed by accident or murder or sickness. However when the kamma that conditioned rebirth in these realms has ended they are reborn in planes where there are rupa. In our current plane,the human world, live is extremely short and mind is dependent on rupa. If the rupa is rendered so that it is no longer suitable as a support for mind then one dies (as you suggest). Immediately upon death there are conditions for a new consciousness ,conditioned by the previous ones, to arise in another place or plane. Very different from the old life, but conditioned by the last one to some degree. In the human world may have taken birth only for a second and then die- if the rupa that supports consciousness is rendered unfit. Robert > 28605 From: Carl Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 6:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's tree and a little hint ..Continuation of Pannatta Dear Htoo, thank you for you very informative reply to my questions. I have taken the liberty to follow up: But only if you have the time. wrote: > Dear Carl, > Thanks for your question and your interest in Pannatta. Here is my > reply to your letter. > With Metta, > Htoo Naing > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Carl.. Htoo Naing am I correct in thinking thusly: Vision, > seeing the tree, is a mental construct to the full extent that it is > impossible to view the "outside world" as the outside world. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Htoo: When you say ' see a tree ', there have been billions and billions of Cittas have happened. Carl: Thanks, this helps bring the process into perspective. >Htoo: In a series of Vithi Cittas ( conscious mind ), there are 17 >Cittas in total that depend on the present Rupa. At the end of 17 >Cittas, the last Citta and Rupa fall away at the same time...... .......... . ................................... .....(Carl: I have printed out the citta process as you wrote it and keep it close at hand for a reference :)............... >Htoo: Next Manodvara Vithi Cittas follow. In between further >Cakkhuvinnana Vithi Cittas series follow. Carl: I understand we are now at/entering/in the mind-door process with continuation of sense-door (seeing) citta process. (knocking on the mind-door). > Htoo: The sense object is being considered. It is such a shape. >Next series shows it is such a colour. Next series contemplates on >essence of that sight. Next series considers general name for the >sight. Next series looks at specific name for the concept ( tree ) >like pineapple. Next series estimates its age. Next series to some > detailings and billions and billions of Cittas have happened. > > There is no ' We ' in these processes. Brain is just a work >station. Actual sight-consciousness arises at eye or Cakkhayatana >or Cakkhu Pasada or Cakkhu Vatthu. > Carl: Htoo, I have trouble here. You write "Actual sight- consciousness arises at eye or Cakkhayatana or Cakkhu Pasada or Cakkhu Vatthu." I guess I am wondering if a "worldly" flesh-and-blood location can be established for sight-consciousness? I have always located this event (the tree) to take place within the brain-mass (occipatal lobe precisely). Would I be more correct to understand sight (the tree) as occuring on, in or about the eye- organ? >Htoo: The object seems to be taken to us and we see it. Or we go >there to the object and take it. Carl: I do not understand how we "go there to the object"? "That the object seems to be taken to us" seems understandable to me. >Htoo: It is wrong to say, ' the true nature of the *outside world* >is unknowable. Functions of Cittas and Cetasikas are to know >both outside world and inside world. Carl: Yes, I think I understand this at some level. But I remain perplexed. If the *worldly/conventional* vision of "the tree" is produced in the mind, as I have assumed, then there must be a gap (time/distance) between the inside and the outside world? If there is such a gap/separation then the outside world can never be directly experienced even though it is really out there. But perhaps if I come to understand "the tree" as actually appearing directly on or about the eye, then I may understand a direct contact of some kind with "the tree" with no gap? >Htoo: When we are saying Pannatta, actually we are speaking about >ultimate realities. In the ultimate sense there are only Citta, >Cetasika, Rupa and Nibbana. > > Pannatta is not an ultimate realities. But no one will say it is >wrong to say this is a tree and so on. Because it is conventionally >true and very true. Carl: Yes, conventional realities vs ultimate realities Fascinating! :) > There are two kind of Pannatta. Attha Pannatta ( meaning of a > dhamma ) and Sadda Pannatta ( sounding words ). The latter does >have influence by language but not the former. > I hope this matter is clear. > With Unlimited Metta, > Htoo Naing Carl: Thank you so much Htoo Carl 28606 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:24pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hi Michael Everything that has a begining has an end [Quote from Matrix]. Regards to your post to Howard that you feel that paramatha dhammas can be disintegrate to further smaller pieces, I am wondering when will this disintegration stops. If basing on your conceptual model, there will be an infinite disintegration. This puzzle me, how is Buddha going to teach his disciples on such a theory. He would say disciples following this feelings, there are sub-feelings, from these sub-feeling there are sub-sub feelings... then on and on. Wouldn't these be very confusing and hard to learn. I do not know how one going to practise satipatthana, when feelings arise, there are sub feeling, sub-sub feelings... no end. The person will be stuck with feelings for an infinite sati-patthana momments. In such a case, I think there is no need for Buddha to teach the other aspects of satipatthana bc feelings will be enough to for one to practise. Please feel free to start this interesting subject again and I like to thank you bc this has been an eye opener for me in learning the middle way kind rgds Ken O 28607 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Hi Larry In Abhidhamm, salt is a concept so cannot be an object of satipatthana. whereas when we touch salt, the hardness of salt is an object. When we taste salt, the taste can be an object of satipatthana. These are the gross object we can notice for satipatthana but when it becomes a nutriment, that I cannot help you bc its beyond me :). The ability to know nutriment I think must be someone who has a highly developed insight. kind regards Ken O 28608 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Larry > > In Abhidhamm, salt is a concept so cannot be an object of > satipatthana. whereas when we touch salt, the hardness of salt is an > object. When we taste salt, the taste can be an object of > satipatthana. These are the gross object we can notice for > satipatthana but when it becomes a nutriment, that I cannot help you > bc its beyond me :). The ability to know nutriment I think must be > someone who has a highly developed insight. > > > kind regards > Ken O > = Very good ken, Still when you take in food, can't you detect different sensations , one senses the difference between eating say a big mac or a salad within a few minutes. It courses through the body, especially in the stomach region. I don't been being able to pinpoint which is exactly nutrition but still there is some understanding, sometimes. robert 28609 From: Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 8:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Hi Ken O, We can experience the earth, water, fire, air, color, taste, smell, and nutritional essence of a certain substance, and we can name that substance salt. Seeing that all those experiences are gone before we know it is satipatthana. We experience these experiences one at a time but the rupas exist inseparably, according to abhidhamma. Larry 28610 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 9:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Hi Larry If am not wrong your qestion is same as Howard previously about free floating rupaville. This I surrender. Previously I guess that if we assume that when the nutriment rupa is experience by citta, the rest of the seven inseparable will ceased to exist bc there is no longer a condition (in this aspect a citta) to carry on their existence. kind rgds Ken O 28611 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 9:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Hi Howard, The expert in technical terms is Nina not me ;-) so basically what I doing now is guess work. I have the same feeling as you, the way it describe sounds like pannati. But I like to suggest a different approach in looking at it. I feel the problem is the translation of the terms of nutriment A (to indicated rupa nutriment) coincides with the nutritment B (modern science, a pannati). The function of this nutriment A is to substain the body with nutriment B (that was derived from shallowing of food (a pannati also)). That is the best I can guess, I could be wrong. kind regards Ken O 28612 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables I should add to this that probably most of the time what appears after eating is likely to be the gross rupas: hardness, heat, distension but nutrition is there too. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong > wrote: > > Hi Larry > > > > In Abhidhamm, salt is a concept so cannot be an object of > > satipatthana. whereas when we touch salt, the hardness of salt is > an > > object. When we taste salt, the taste can be an object of > > satipatthana. These are the gross object we can notice for > > satipatthana but when it becomes a nutriment, that I cannot help > you > > bc its beyond me :). The ability to know nutriment I think must be > > someone who has a highly developed insight. > > > > > > kind regards > > Ken O > > = > > > Very good ken, > Still when you take in food, can't you detect different sensations , > one senses the difference between eating say a big mac or a salad > within a few minutes. It courses through the body, especially in the > stomach region. I don't been being able to pinpoint which is > exactly nutrition but still there is some understanding, sometimes. > robert 28613 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Paramatha Dhammas and Concepts Hi Michael & Ken O, I’d like to say how much I’ve appreciated and admired your discussion together. I think it’s very useful and hope you continue when you’ve caught up on some rest and nutrition;-) Thank you....it was a treat to read over breakfast. It reminded me of discussions in the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy) very much with the controverted points and refutations. --- Michael Beisert wrote: > “There has to be the clear distinction between concepts and ‘paramattha > dhammas’ (ultimate realities). We *think* there are conventional > things. In > truth they don’t exist except in our imaginations.” > > This seems to be a prevalent thinking among the Abhidhamma aficionados. ..... OK, to prove your point and to touch on the conditioned nature of *only* paramattha dhammas, let me quote a little from the Kathavatthu, PTS transl, Bk1, 111, Derivatives (as I believe you mentioned before that you are interested in the Abhidhamma itself): Theravadin - Is the concept of soul (puggala) derived from the corporeal qualities (rupas)? Puggalavadin - Yes. T: But has a soul also any or all of these qualities? P: Nay, that cannot truly be said.... T: Or is the concept of soul derived from feeling, from perception, from mental coefficients, from consciousness? P: Yes (to each aggregate in succession). T: Is any mental aggregate impermanent, conditioned? Does it happen through a cause? Is it liable to perish, to pass away, to become passionless, to cease, to change? P: Yes. T: But has soul also any of these qualities? P: Nay, that cannot truly be said..... **** The same argument applies to table, chair, tree and so on.... To link this to the SN1, Devatasamyutta thread, we read in SN1:76 (6) Does Not Decay: “What decays, what does not decay? .................. “The physical form (rupa) of mortals decays (jaarati), Their name and clan does not decay.” Metta, Sarah ===== M: >The distinction > between concepts and paramatha dhammas, mentioned above, points towards > a > philosophical middle way which is similar to someone with a perfectly > normal > average temperature having the upper body in the freezer and the lower > body > in the oven. <...> >The philosophical middle way proposed by the Buddha is the > application of conditionality to all phenomena without any exclusion > whatsoever. So called paramatha dhammas and concepts have exactly the > same > nature, they are conditioned, subject to arising and cessation. 28614 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anapanasati 9 c Hi KenO, --- ashkenn2k wrote: > Hi Nina > > Sorry to bother you, as I was pasting these notes by you into one file > I seem cannot find anapanasati 9b or the numbering is wrong, 9c should > be 9b. .... I just found 9b by keying in 'anapanasati' in escribe: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m24208.html I know Nina will be delighted to see your interest and help. Anumodana, Sarah ====== 28615 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 3:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] the Four Noble Truths Hi Ben, I’m so impressed by all your keen reflections.... These comments will be rather brief and rushed, but pls ask for any further clarifications. --- Benjamin Jerome wrote: > > (I *think* I might use the words attention, awareness, and mindfulness > all > meaning the same thing, hope this does not cause confusion) .... S:I think you are referring to satipatthana.... .... > Is mindfulness brought about by craving? (the below quote seems to say > yes, > and I agree with it) Is this the meaning of using a thorn to remove a > thorn? .... S:Conditions are complicated. In a sense we can say anything or any state can be a condition for sati (mindfulness). For example, without craving, there would have been no birth and no possibility of sati now;-) .... > Is the object of attention/awareness determined? .... S:All realities (namas and rupas) are conditioned. Satipatthana can only have a reality as object. .... > Here is a description of the 4 noble truths in The Way of Mindfulness, > the > Satipatthaana Sutta Commentary by Soma Thera: > > "The mindfulness which lays hold of the [object of satipatthaana] is the > Truth of Suffering; > The previous craving which originates that mindfulness is the Truth of > Origin; > The non-occurance of both that mindfulness and the craving is the Truth > of > Cessation. > The Real Path that understands suffering, casts out the origin, and has > cessation for its object is the Truth of the Way. > Endeavouring in this way by means of the Four Truths one arrives at > peace." > pg.107 > > I found this interpretation gives me a different angle on the 4 Noble > Truths. Notice that here the *object of mindfulness* is not the truth > of > dukkha, but the *mindfulness itself* is the dukkha. .... S:The translation is a little awkward. I take it to refer to the objects of mindfulness [i.e the 5 khandhas]to be dukkha, as realized by the development of satipatthana. .... >And it seems that > what > we pay attention to is determined by craving. ... S:Indirectly only. Craving is the ‘origin’ of dukkha, for the arising of the khandhas and thus the opportunity for sati to be aware. Awareness and craving never arise together, but craving can be the object of awareness. .... > But! thanks to > satipatthaana > we are instructed to use the *noble craving* to pay attention to the > present > moment, and try and be mindful of impermanence. .... S:No ‘noble craving’. Satipatthana is just aware of what appears without selection or paying particular attention. (Otherwise it’s more craving again). .... This requires effort! > This > craving is special and is called Noble (in some sutta I read once) > because > is can lead to insight into the Four Noble Truths. .... S:Insight understands the Truth about craving. Not the other way round. ... > Then I noticed suddenly anger arose! But I recognized > right > away what the cause of the anger was, it was my desire to be mindful of > the > sound of chewing! ... S: ;-) Excellent example, It sounds ridiculous, but as you explain, craving can crave anything!! .... > In this way I saw for myself how wanting leads to anger! And of > course > I was able to abandon such a silly desire, is it not ridiculous to get > angry > because one cannot hear the sound of crunching food in his mouth? .... S: “As kusa-grass, wrongly grasped, Only cuts one’s hand, So the ascetic life, wrongly taken up, Drags one down to hell” (SN2:8, Devaputtasamyutta) Sometimes we have discussions about the dangers of misguided practices. Ben, I hope you will join in some of the SN threads too. .... > My question is, is this the way which leads to the destruction of > craving? > Is it because of seeing grief inside myself caused by wanting that > wanting will gradually fade away? .... S: By understanding whatever conditioned reality appears, whether it’s craving or any other - no selection, no need to accumulate more wanting. ..... >Sometimes it seems like I can > understand > a want and some anxiety it is producing, but it still the wanting > doesn't > cease! .... S: Because it’s anatta. There may be a moment of understanding and sati but it’s never enough. It may be followed immediately by attachment and more anxiety. These are just conditioned states, anatta too. Not Ben’s;-) .... > Lately I really have been noticing... I crave so much for > mindfulness of > present happenings that it causes me anxiety. When you want, you > suffer! ... S: Yes, regardless of the object. Craving for sati or anything else is not the way, but it can be known. It doesn’t last either. .... > What I don't understand is this: if craving ceases, and awareness > is > based on "preference and avoidance" what does attention rest on? ... S: Satipatthana is not based on these. It is based on wise consideration and reflection about realities. .... >What > determines what one pays attention to? .... S: Conditions, including right and wrong views. (Of course, no ‘one’ again.) .... >I have heard the phrases > "choiceless > awareness" and I think "awareness-release". What does this mean? .... S: Choiceless - depending on conditions perhaps? .... >I > don't > understand how mindfulness could "not occur", as the above quotes > describes > in the Truth of Cessation. .... S: No more becoming, final cessation....no more craving, mindfulness or any other states. Excellent questions. My responses here are very rushed and other members may give other comments.I'd be glad to hear further any of your feedback on this or the other posts Jon and I wrote to you (but just if you wish to get back on the threads). Please don’t be put off if there’s a gap anytime before you hear from members - you raise many good and knotty points. Metta, Sarah ===== 28616 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 7:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation: To Mike B And Ken O Dear Michael B, Ken O and all Happy New Year! How are you? Michael wrote: "Ken, I rest my case. I don't think my arguments were good enough to convince you. It is my lack of skill. I wish you be happy and will talk again in the future." I do not think that your main problem was lack of skill in arguments, but lack of correct information on the use of the terms "paramattha" and "sabhaava" in Abhidhamma and commentaries. As Ken O pointed out in his reply to you, the conditionality in the Dependent Origination is merely the conditionality of paramatthas because Dependent Origination teaches how cetasikas, consciousness, and matter condition each other. Michael, in your reply to Ken, you made a mistake of saying that "concepts" (in the sense of non-paramatthas) are conditioned. You would see your mistake when you review the components in Dependent Origination because there is no paññatti dhamma ("concept") among the components of Dependent Origination. Remeber well that there is neither conditionality nor Dependent Origination without paramatthas. To his credit, Ken merely pointed out contradictions in your arguments by using his knowledge of Abhidhamma and commentaries. So when you are ready to talk to him again, you should have done some homework in the correct of use of the terms "paramattha" and and "sabhaava" in Abhidhamma and commentaries. Then, perhaps, Ken O would be more easily convinced of your points. By the way, Kathaavatthu is a good place for you to familiarize yourself with the correct use of the term "paramattha". It is available in English as "Points Of Controversy" by Shew Zan Aung published by Pali Text Society, in which you can also learn how to argue like a Buddhist as the work is the first and oldest Indian logic text as well. Good luck! With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: Hello Ken, Ken, I rest my case. I don't think my arguments were good enough to convince you. It is my lack of skill. I wish you be happy and will talk again in the future. Metta Michael 28617 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 7:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Howard, Howard: But what are any of a hardness or a pleasant feeling or an anger composed of? Michael: I don't know but for the reasons I gave, in my mind they have to be a composite as well. Howard: I'm very much of a yogacarin my self - or, better, a Theravadin with a Yogacarin overlay! ;-)) My phenomenalist take on things makes me a natural vijnanavadin. Michael: Yes, that was my perception. Metta Michael 28618 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 7:56am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hello Ken, Ken: I am wondering when will this disintegration stops. If basing on your conceptual model, there will be an infinite disintegration. This puzzle me, how is Buddha going to teach his disciples on such a theory Michael: I don't know where it stops and I don't think it is important to know. The Buddha did not teach a theory, in fact he rejected all kinds of ideas, or mental proliferations, as obstacles to the practice. He taught what was necessary to break down our misconceptions to lift the veil of ignorance and give an end to suffering. That's all. And for that purpose the aggregates and the 3 characteristics is more than enough. Ken: I do not know how one going to practise satipatthana, when feelings arise, there are sub feeling, sub-sub feelings... no end Michael: That analysis is not necessary. If you realize the 3 characteristics of feeling with insight that is more than enough. It is really not necessary to try to understand what feelings are composed of. But in my view it is an obstacle to view them as real in the sense of paramatha/sabhava. Metta Michael 28619 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 8:08am Subject: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [James] Dear James, To respond to a few of your questions... J: "...your position on this matter is perplexing to me. You basically agree with everything I wrote about the importance of the Vinaya and following rules but then state 'And the path is only tread on when there is no effort to follow rules.' What? It seems to me like you are trying to have it both ways." --> Both ways -- that's right. The path is hard to walk, VERY hard; yet, good things can be done even at those times when we have lost sight of the path. J: "Also, I think your definition of `path' is far too narrow. By your definition, only arahants are the ones following the path." --> My definition of 'path' is eightfold: Right view, Right intention, Right speech, Right action, Right livelihood, Right effort, Right mindfulness, and Right concentration. When one of these planks is missing, the path is not tread. [Note: In Atthasalini, Buddhagosa writes of a five-fold 'path' that applies to mundane moments of satipatthana -- 5-fold because the speech, action, livelihood planks are said to not be applicable except when there is explicit restraint. When I speak of 'path', I am also referring to this 5-fold notion.] Buddha also discussed a "Wrong path," consisting of Wrong view, Wrong intention, etc. When one of these micchas appears, the path is the "wrong path". The notoriously fictitious Nadsemaj may have been on the path (Right path) for some moments during his sit, but more likely he was on the wrong path the whole time. Does this mean that sitting quietly in the corner, legs crossed, eyes closed, following Goenka's or Mahasi's or Gunaratana's instructions is a bad thing? Not at all! Nadsemaj would have also been on the wrong path for that whole hour had he been washing dishes, conversing in French, diving off cliffs in Mexico, reading Yamaka in the original Pali, bashing someone's brains out in a drunken brawl, or torturing people to death in torture chambers. But, please, understand that I am not saying that all wrong action is equally wrong. Most wrong action is relatively benign, but some wrong action is horrific. There is suffering and great danger in even the most benign wrong action (the first Noble Truth is relentless!), but benign wrong action is certainly to be preferred over horrific wrong action. In fact, sometimes doing the wrong thing keeps us more in the vicinity of the path than doing other wrong things would. For example, I'd guess that regularly following Mahasi's meditation instructions is more likely to keep us in the vicinity of the path than following Saddam Hussein's torture instructions. The arising of the path (mundane or supramundane) cannot be forced and there are no rules to follow that will cause the path to arise, but there are things we can do that may help us recognize those path moments when they do arise, the conditions that were acting as the moments arise, and the response to that arising and falling. That recognition is called "development" (bhavana). J: "...the path is a gradual one..." --> And How! J: "...that meets people where they are." --> Not sure what you mean by that. If you mean that one can be said to be following the path in a hour when there is continuous string of consciousnesses rooted in lobha/dosa/moha, I'd have to conclude that you are talking about "wrong path." If you mean that the path can arise in the course of pretty much any activity, I'd agree. J: > SN II, 6(6) "Kamada" --> Interesting sutta! I like it. The basic message I get is that the path is very difficult to walk, but that it is possible. The last stanza contains a few colorful lines (but are a little confusing nonetheless): > "Though the path is impassable and uneven, > The noble ones walk it, Kamada. > The ignoble ones fall down head first, > Right there on the uneven path, > But the path of the noble ones is even, > For the noble are even amidst the uneven." Could it be that the "uneven path" is the "wrong path" that the ignoble ones tread, while the "even path" is the "Right path" that the noble ones tread? The part of the commentary you cite doesn't comment on that. But the first two lines: "Though the path is impassable and uneven, The noble ones walk it, Kamada" are a riddle. The commentary seems to take the word "path" in the conventional, JamesHowardsian sense of "sitting in a corner trying to follow Mahasi's instructions is 'the path' even when there is no arising of satipatthana or even of kusala": "Although the noble path is neither impassable nor uneven (duggamo visamo) this is said because there are many impediments in the preliminary portion of the path." Are there 'impediments' in the Right path? Hmmm... There are the anusaya which are bound to arise with great frequency and knock us quickly off the path as long as our path-walking is still in the preliminary portion of the path. Could this be what 'impediments' means here? Or could this "uneven path" be referring to the ignoble's mistaken view of the path (or view of the Wrong path) because "the path of the noble ones is even"? It reads like a koan -- I like it. > Note 149: Spk: This young deva, it is said, had been a meditator in a > previous life, but he had thick defilements and thus could suppress > them only with much effort. Though he did the work of an ascetic, > because his supporting conditions were weak he passed away and took > rebirth in the deva world without having reached the plane of the > noble ones. He came to the Blessed One's presence to proclaim the > difficulty of the ascetic life. > Note 150: Spk: Although the noble path is neither impassable nor > uneven (duggamo visamo) this is said because there are many > impediments in the preliminary portion of the path. > > This wasn't really much of a pep talk by the Buddha but he didn't > give pep talks, he just told it like it is. Yes, meditation is > difficult but the noble ones do it even though it is difficult. > There are no guarantees of success. I identify a lot with Kamada > because meditation is difficult for me also; I believe I have a lot > of defilements. But that is no reason to stop or whine about it, I > just continue to do it. Over the years I have seen slow but steady > progress. --> Now it's my turn to say, "I think your definition of `path' is far too narrow." You are equating "path" with "meditation" in the sense of Mahasi, Goenka, et al. when you read the Kamada sutta? J: "Think what you want and do what you want." --> I'm glad to hear you aren't interested in controlling what I do! Goodness knows how frustrating it would be for you to try to control me. I can't even do that very well myself! J: "I will continue to follow the rules as well as I can because I see the wisdom of them, not because anyone is forcing me to. If you think I am wrong, okay (my parents think I am wrong too so you are in good company! ;-))." --> Wrong? Yes, if you are anything like me (viz., full of lobha/dosa/moha), you will be following the wrong path whether sitting, standing, walking, lying, eating, talking, writing, thinking, etc. Just be aware of what is Right and what is Wrong each moment. With great appreciation, Dan 28620 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 8:17am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation: To Mike B And Ken O Hello Suan, Thank you for your comments and I just want to say that I disagree with much of what you say. But I don’t think it would be profitable for both of us to start a discussion on this. Only one point I want to mention. You wrote: “there is no paññatti dhamma ("concept") among the components of Dependent Origination.” Well, but there is sankhara in dependent origination, and paññati is a sankhara. Metta Michael 28621 From: Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/3/04 12:55:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > The expert in technical terms is Nina not me ;-) so basically what I > doing now is guess work. I have the same feeling as you, the way it > describe sounds like pannati. But I like to suggest a different > approach in looking at it. I feel the problem is the translation of > the terms of nutriment A (to indicated rupa nutriment) coincides with > the nutritment B (modern science, a pannati). The function of this > nutriment A is to substain the body with nutriment B (that was > derived from shallowing of food (a pannati also)). That is the best > I can guess, I could be wrong. > > > kind regards > Ken O > > ============================== I think that yours is a heroic and clever attempt to redeem the notion. I find myself often straining in the same way to salvage an idea from the Abhidhamma. Your approach is a pretty good one, saying, as I understand you, that the description given is really that of the pa~n~natti "nutriment B". That then leaves the rupa, the allegedly actually existent "nutiment A", to be a condition for the former. The trouble is, as I see it, that there is no evidence of such a scenario in the quoted material whatsoever, and moreover, "nutriment A" is a merely hypothesized but unobserved, hidden essence like the ether of modern times. There was a tendency in ancient civilizations (and somewhat still in modern times) to look for hidden "essences" or "potencies" that account for things. Frequently these were based on conventional notions. Bodily rupas hold together, so there must be a "life force" responsible. Organic masses are maintained and increase so there must be some "nutritive essence" responsible. There is (said to be) rebirth, so there must be a soul that is reincarnated. The body moves, so there must be an animator. The world exists and is maintained, so there must be a Creator/Maintainer. Light travels through empty space, so there must be an ether. I see the Buddha as that most unbelievably innovative of beings who discovered and dared to teach that there are no hidden essences and potencies in things, but, rather, all proceeds from conditionality, the coming together of fleeting, impersonal, and insubstantial phenomenal conditions, as follows: A. Imasmim sati idam hoti: When there is this, that is. Imasuppada idam upajjati: With the arising of this, that arises . B. Imasmim asati idam na hoti: When this is not, neither is that. Imassa nirodha idam nirujjhati: With the cessation of this, that ceases. [S.II.28,65] [This from http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9280/coarise1.htm#1.] With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28622 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 8:46am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hi Michael > Michael: > I don't know where it stops and I don't think it is important to > know. The Buddha did not teach a theory, in fact he rejected all kinds of ideas, or mental proliferations, as obstacles to the practice. He taught what was necessary to break down our misconceptions to lift the veil of ignorance and give an end to suffering. That's all. And for that purpose the aggregates and the 3 characteristics is more than enough. k: But Micheal it was Buddha who say this self made up of five aggregates. I have not come across Buddha speaking of sub feelings or sub perceptions. In fact, if you scan through the sutta basket, the mentioned of the five aggregates are very impt for the practise. Hence if Buddha feels there is a sub-feeling, he will have to include it bc it affects the whole sutta basket, the whole practise. When you said that the purpose of aggregates and the 3 characteristics are more than enough, ain't all these you mention same as Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma does not invented a new aggregate or a new characteristic. It elaborated what Buddha taught but maybe the problem is that its elaboration of the five aggregates and the 3 characteristics are too elaborated and they sound as if it is a whole new paradigm of Buddha teachings. To me it is normal for pple to reject the whole of Abhidhamma or part of it, I once was ;-). > Michael: > That analysis is not necessary. If you realize the 3 > characteristics of feeling with insight that is more than enough. It is really not necessary to try to understand what feelings are composed of. But in my view it is an obstacle to view them as real in the sense of paramatha/sabhava. k: I respect your point of view. Abhidhamma is not for everyone. Neither should I convince you of anything. This discussion has been beneficial for me and I have to thank you again for providing this opportunity to explore many aspect of sabhava. Kind regards Ken O 28623 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 9:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anapanasati 9 c Dear Ken Ong, I do not know now, since I only kept my own long file. I did not keep the sections, since I made them up myself with numbers. It is likely I made a mistake in the numbering. The last ones were two by Jon (with Rob Ep) and the end is a part of translation with Pali. It is all in archives, only in the beginning I would like to add my correspondance with Michael. Maybe Sarah can help? Or if you can say the first sentence of each one? Nina. op 02-01-2004 16:46 schreef ashkenn2k op ashkenn2k@y...: > Sorry to bother you, as I was pasting these notes by you into one file > I seem cannot find anapanasati 9b or the numbering is wrong, 9c should > be 9b. 28624 From: Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 4:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation: To Mike B And Ken O Hi, Michael - In a message dated 1/3/04 11:18:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Hello Suan, > > Thank you for your comments and I just want to say that I disagree with much > > of what you say. But I don’t think it would be profitable for both of us to > start a discussion on this. Only one point I want to mention. > > You wrote: “there is no paññatti dhamma ("concept") among the components of > Dependent Origination.â€? Well, but there is sankhara in dependent > origination, and paññati is a sankhara. > > Metta > Michael > ============================ Michael, there is a terminological discrepancy involved here which you may not be aware of. What I mean (and I suspect what you mean) by 'pa~n~natti' is an idea - a mental construct - a mental, sankharic construct that arises via the mind door and which is intended to "point" to something (its alleged referent). But what others here seem to mean by 'pa~n~natti' is that alleged referent! (And since that alleged referent typically doesn't actually exist, "it" never arises nor ceases,"it" has no characteristics, etc, etc.) When we say "concept" (I believe you should be included in this "we"), we mean an actual mental event, something that occurs in the mind, but others here don't mean that at all, but mean the alleged referent of that.There is tremendous confusion when some us mean different but related things by the same term!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28625 From: Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 6:29am Subject: On the Momentariness of Mind States Hi, all - On another list, Htoo and Jeff have been discussing vittaka and vicara. With regard to that I posted the following: ****************************************** Nyanatiloka's dictionary gives the following: _______________________________ > vitakka-vicára: 'thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied > and sustained thought') are verbal functions (vací-sankhára: s. sankhára) of > the mind, the so-called 'inner speech ('parole interieure'). They are > constituents of the 1st absorption (s. jhána), but absent in the higher absorptions. > >> (1) "Thought-conception (vitakka) is the laying hold of a thought, giving >> it attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the consciousness to >> the object.(2) "Discursive thinking (vicára) is the roaming about and moving >> to and fro of the mind.... It manifests itself as continued activity of mind" >> (Vis.M. IV). > (1) is compared with the striking against a bell, (2) with its resounding; (1) with the seizing of a pot, (2) with wiping it. (Cf. Vis . IV.). -------------------------------------------------------------- Ayya Khema described vitakka as the mind hitting against the meditation object, and vicara as the mind rubbing against it, having already made the contact. It seems to me that these are ongoing functions. I wonder what sort of action can be performed during a single mind moment. At times I have to wonder whether the idea of a cetasika lasting for only a single mind moment really makes sense - or, perhaps, it is the notion of a mind moment as instantaneous that is the problem. ********************************************** The more I think about this, the more I think that it is the notion of mind states as necessarily momentary/instantaneous that is the problem. That notion, propagated primarily by the Sautrantikas, has also been adopted to some considerable extent by Theravada and by Mahayana. But it strikes me as being an erroneous and unnecessary notion. While there may well be mind states that are instantaneous, it doesn't seem credible that they all are. Some basic activities require time for their execution and cannot be momentary. One such, from its description, is vicara. Other possible candidates for non-instantaneous functions are wrong and right view, stinginess, regret, doubt, and, especially, concentration. (How is concentration on a single object executed momentarily, when, in fact, concentration is the *maintaining* of awareness on a single object over a period of time? If one answers that concentration is the inclination within a single mind state for the subsequent state to take the same object, well, that is a clever move to make in the debate game, but not good enough I believe. The inclination towards concentration is not the same as concentration.) The bottom line, as I see it, is that there is nothing sacrosanct about instantaneity nor discreteness (and "sharp edges"). The characteristic of impermanence does not require a discrete, stop-motion, movie-frame reality for it to be operative. All that it requires is that nothing arising from conditions remains indefinitely. If A is present on some occasion, there will be some future occasion when it is not present. That is all that is required for impermanence to hold. The issue I am discussing here is separate from that of the issue of the distinction between paramattha dhammas and pa~n~natti. Paramattha dhammas are events and conditions that are actually and directly observable independent of conceptual construction and projection. Whether they occur "in the moment" or with duration is a separate issue. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28626 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 11:57am Subject: Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [James] Hi Dan, (Hmm…seems like your pleasant sense of humor has turned a bit sour. I may be hesitant to continue further.) Dan: My definition of 'path' is eightfold: Right view, Right intention, Right speech, Right action, Right livelihood, Right effort, Right mindfulness, and Right concentration. When one of these planks is missing, the path is not tread. [Note: In Atthasalini, Buddhagosa writes of a five-fold 'path' that applies to mundane moments of satipatthana -- 5-fold because the speech, action, livelihood planks are said to not be applicable except when there is explicit restraint. When I speak of 'path', I am also referring to James: Well, then, you and I have the same definition of path! (Except I don't agree with Buddhaghosa's new interpretation.) I think where we differ is in application. Dan: Does this mean that sitting quietly in the corner, legs crossed, eyes closed, following Goenka's or Mahasi's or Gunaratana's instructions is a bad thing? Not at all! Nadsemaj would have also been on the wrong path for that whole hour had he been washing dishes, conversing in French, diving off cliffs in Mexico, reading Yamaka in the original Pali, bashing someone's brains out in a drunken brawl, or torturing people to death in torture chambers. James: First, I personally don't appreciate the parallelism of this statement that compares meditation practice with such horrific violence! I consider it hurtful and unfair. Second, if Nadsemaj has Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood- the cultivation of what is correct, good, beneficial, non- harming, and moral- than his sitting in meditation would not be following the wrong path. I have never advocated that just anyone should sit in meditation, without the proper instruction, motivation, view, and moral training, these factors must go along with the cultivation of Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration (meditation). That is why I have been emphasizing Vinaya and Sila so strongly! If Right View and Sila are not present a person might as well not attempt to meditate; it would be fruitless and potentially harmful. The Eightfold Path is not just a `pie-in- the-sky' idealism; it is a description of mundane and supramundane specific actions to take with one's body and with one's mind leading to Nibbana. Dan: For example, I'd guess that regularly following Mahasi's meditation instructions is more likely to keep us in the vicinity of the path than following Saddam Hussein's torture instructions. James: Again, quite unnecessary parallelism. Dan: The arising of the path (mundane or supramundane) cannot be forced and there are no rules to follow that will cause the path to arise, but there are things we can do that may help us recognize those path moments when they do arise, the conditions that were acting as the moments arise, and the response to that arising and falling. That recognition is called "development" (bhavana). James: Here is that `mini-meditation' theory again. I have been giving this theory quite a lot of thought lately since I have never encountered it before joining this group. (Where does it come from?) I would suspect that if a person cultivates strong enough Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, and Right Livelihood; but doesn't choose to strongly cultivate Right Effort, Right Concentration, and Right Mindfulness; that spontaneous moments of wholesome mind states would arise in the midst of unwholesome mind states during everyday activities. And if the person recognized these mind states and purposefully cultivated them to occur more, and discouraged the arising of unwholesome mind states, they would increase in number. This isn't necessarily a bad thing to be doing but it isn't what the Buddha taught. Specifically, I don't believe it would lead to enlightenment. The problem would be that the level of panna (insight/wisdom) wouldn't be raised to a sufficient power to penetrate the three characteristics of all conditioned phenomena. People who practice this technique would probably just generate abundant good kamma and be reborn in a deva realm. The root of suffering, craving arising from ignorance, is very deep and very pervasive. Just thinking good thoughts isn't going to get rid of it. At the most it will simply suppress it until a later time. This is my take on it. If you don't agree, okay. Dan: The commentary seems to take the word "path" in the conventional, JamesHowardsian sense of "sitting in a corner trying to follow Mahasi's instructions is 'the path' even when there is no arising of satipatthana or even of kusala" James: LOL! Oh yes, didn't you know? Howard I wrote that commentary in our previous lives as bhikkus! Hehehe…just kidding. If you don't want to believe it that is okay. I just offered it as an explanation for what I believe. You don't have to believe what I believe. Dan: Now it's my turn to say, "I think your definition of `path' is far too narrow." You are equating "path" with "meditation" in the sense of Mahasi, Goenka, et al. when you read the Kamada sutta? James: No, I am not equating meditation as being the entirety of the path. All factors of the path must be present or the Buddha wouldn't have discovered them and taught them. The Buddha didn't just concoct the path like one comes up with a new recipe. When he reached enlightenment he instantly knew the Four Noble Truths which included the Eightfold Path. He didn't have to think it up. It is the truth eternal. Dan: I'm glad to hear you aren't interested in controlling what I do! Goodness knows how frustrating it would be for you to try to control me. I can't even do that very well myself! James: Maybe you should try meditation? ;-))) (Sorry, couldn't resist! ;-) Dan: Wrong? Yes, if you are anything like me (viz., full of lobha/dosa/moha), you will be following the wrong path whether sitting, standing, walking, lying, eating, talking, writing, thinking, etc. Just be aware of what is Right and what is Wrong each moment. James: I think I will take things a bit more into my hands, thank you. Your outlook seems rather hopeless to me. Metta, James 28627 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 0:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Dear Rob M, welcome back, good to have you back :-). Your question on kamma. op 15-12-2003 22:08 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > >> R: ... It is therefore not correct to say that incidents >>> that happen to you arise because of kamma condition. Incidents > are >>> not mental states. Incidents that happen to you arise because of > a >>> complex set of conditions, but it would seem that it is not >>> appropriate to talk of kamma when discussing incidents. >>> >>> People do talk of incidents happening "because of kamma". Is this >>> incorrect? >> N: I find Sarah's expression that a situation can be a shorthand > for dhammas >> helpful. There were many posts about this. Jon remarked that > praise and >> blame etc. are used in the Tipitaka to denote results of kamma. > When we >> analyse different moments it is more complex of course. > > ===== > > Not understood. Please provide some details. Again:< it is not >>> appropriate to talk of kamma when discussing incidents. >>> >>> People do talk of incidents happening "because of kamma". Is this >>> incorrect?> Not incorrect, we can talk more in general, conventional sense, not in the precise sense of abhidhamma. So, in one day there may be an accident, a great loss, a calamity of nature, and we say: how is that possible so much akusala vipaka. Not incorrect. When more precise we can analyse a situation into different moments of seeing, hearing, thinking. Thinking with like and dislike is not vipaka, but these follow very closely. Words of blame: seeing (when it is on computer screen), knowing the meaning of the words, this is not vipaka and after that feeling upset, that is akusala. Cittas are so fast, and only after the event we could say that there was akusala vipaka, and then we start to cry over spilt milk. As you like to say, and I remembered it, (you had it from the chief reverend) both views are correct. It depends from what angle we look at it. Nina. 28628 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 0:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation: To Mike B And Ken O Hello Howard, Howard: What I mean (and I suspect what you mean) by 'pa~n~natti' is an idea - a mental construct - a mental, sankharic construct that arises via the mind door and which is intended to "point" to something (its alleged referent). But what others here seem to mean by 'pa~n~natti' is that alleged referent! (And since that alleged referent typically doesn't actually exist, "it" never arises nor ceases,"it" has no characteristics, etc, etc.) When we say "concept" (I believe you should be included in this "we"), we mean an actual mental event, something that occurs in the mind, but others here don't mean that at all, but mean the alleged referent of that. Michael: Thanks for the clarification. Yes I am considering paññati as a mental fabrication. To say that the referent object really does not exist but only exists in the mind is equivalent to an idealistic position. And this kind of idea, that things do not exist, is one of the extremes rejected by the Buddha. All things exist as compounded and conditioned phenomena, even that referent is a compounded and conditioned phenomena, which has the same nature as the mental fabrication which arises based on that referent which is also compounded and conditioned. I find it quite amazing that the most prevalent interpretation of the abhidhamma stating that there are paramatha dhammas, which are true existents, inevitably forces one to take this idealistic position of saying that so called conventional realities, i.e., all the rest which are not paramatha dhammas, do not exist. If paramatha dhammas are the only things that truly exist then all the rest cannot exist. This is a very odd position to be in because it is at the same time the two extremes rejected by the Buddha, existence and non-existence. Metta Michael 28629 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 1:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Beisert" To: Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:28 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics > Hello Mike, > > Mike: > The only point I meant to make had to do with sabhaava being (perhaps) the > distinguishing characteristic of what can vs. cannot be the object of > satipa.t.thaana, as opposed to denoting some kind of essence or reality in a > western philosophical sense. I think we might agree that the latter is not > a particularly useful avenue of discussion. > > Michael: > Seems we are more or less back to where we started. As I mentioned before, > in my view, the distinguishing characteristic that one hopes to unveil > through insight are dukkha, anicca and anatta, not sabhava. I agree that insight into the three chracteristics is essential. The question remains, into what dhammas can insight arise? > I don't know > what you mean by 'western philosophical sense'. I meant, more generally that questions of existence, non-existence and so on are beside this question, in my opinion. > My argument against > paramatha dhammas/sabhava has been influenced by the thinking of the > madhyamaka philosophy which is not western. My suggestion was (and remains) that, philosophy (eastern or western) aside, the issue is not the ultimate existence or non-existence of a dhamma, but whether or not that dhamma can be the basis of insight, according to buddhadhamma. That is, that the foundations of minfulness are said to have sabhaava not because they are ultimately real, but because they (alone) can be the bases of insight. mike 28630 From: Egberdina Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 1:46pm Subject: Re: On the Momentariness of Mind States Hi Howard and everyone, I agree strongly with your post. I think there is a good comparison between what you say, and the problems associated with the wholesale adoption of Newtonian mechanics. There comes a point in the reduction of observations to ever smaller observations that an uncertainty principle kicks in. You cannot know the velocity of a particle as well as its location, for example. As you say, one cannot know what function a mindstate is performing if a single snapshot is taken. And if you relate two discrete snapshots to each other, and identify them as belonging to the "same" sequence, whether in time or in terms of causality or other, you have said nothing at all about the function of the mindstates, but everything about the observer and the criterion of selection. I think there are also huge problems associated with the dictum that only one observation in the same medium can be made. Time, that close friend of instantaneinity and discreteness, is constructed from change, and change can never be established from a single observation. Clearly, the experience of change requires a comparison between two states at least. If impermanence is seen to be a mark of all phenomena, then citta-vithi as a theoretical model needs some work. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > On another list, Htoo and Jeff have been discussing vittaka and > vicara. With regard to that I posted the following: > > ****************************************** > Nyanatiloka's dictionary gives the following: > > _______________________________ > > > vitakka-vicára: 'thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied > > and sustained thought') are verbal functions (vací-sankhára: s. sankhára) of > > the mind, the so-called 'inner speech ('parole interieure'). They are > > constituents of the 1st absorption (s. jhána), but absent in the higher absorptions. > > >> (1) "Thought-conception (vitakka) is the laying hold of a thought, giving > >> it attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the consciousness to > >> the object.(2) "Discursive thinking (vicára) is the roaming about and moving > >> to and fro of the mind.... It manifests itself as continued activity of mind" > >> (Vis.M. IV). > > > (1) is compared with the striking against a bell, (2) with its resounding; > (1) with the seizing of a pot, (2) with wiping it. (Cf. Vis . IV.). > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Ayya Khema described vitakka as the mind hitting against the > meditation object, and vicara as the mind rubbing against it, having already made the > contact. It seems to me that these are ongoing functions. I wonder what sort of > action can be performed during a single mind moment. At times I have to > wonder whether the idea of a cetasika lasting for only a single mind moment really > makes sense - or, perhaps, it is the notion of a mind moment as instantaneous > that is the problem. > ********************************************** > The more I think about this, the more I think that it is the notion of > mind states as necessarily momentary/instantaneous that is the problem. That > notion, propagated primarily by the Sautrantikas, has also been adopted to > some considerable extent by Theravada and by Mahayana. But it strikes me as being > an erroneous and unnecessary notion. While there may well be mind states > that are instantaneous, it doesn't seem credible that they all are. Some basic > activities require time for their execution and cannot be momentary. One such, > from its description, is vicara. Other possible candidates for > non-instantaneous functions are wrong and right view, stinginess, regret, doubt, and, > especially, concentration. (How is concentration on a single object executed > momentarily, when, in fact, concentration is the *maintaining* of awareness on a single > object over a period of time? If one answers that concentration is the > inclination within a single mind state for the subsequent state to take the same > object, well, that is a clever move to make in the debate game, but not good > enough I believe. The inclination towards concentration is not the same as > concentration.) > The bottom line, as I see it, is that there is nothing sacrosanct > about instantaneity nor discreteness (and "sharp edges"). The characteristic of > impermanence does not require a discrete, stop-motion, movie-frame reality for > it to be operative. All that it requires is that nothing arising from > conditions remains indefinitely. If A is present on some occasion, there will be some > future occasion when it is not present. That is all that is required for > impermanence to hold. > The issue I am discussing here is separate from that of the issue of > the distinction between paramattha dhammas and pa~n~natti. Paramattha dhammas > are events and conditions that are actually and directly observable > independent of conceptual construction and projection. Whether they occur "in the > moment" or with duration is a separate issue. > > With metta, > Howard > 28631 From: Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation: To Mike B And Ken O Hi, Michael - In a message dated 1/3/04 3:47:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Michael: > Thanks for the clarification. Yes I am considering paññati as a mental > fabrication. To say that the referent object really does not exist but only > exists in the mind is equivalent to an idealistic position. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think so. Idealism says that *all* objects are mind-constructed/projected. I do not say that hardness, for example, is constructed by the mind, but only that it's occurrence is as an object of awareness and not as something independent of awareness. The Buddha has said that vi~n~nana and namarupa are mutually dependent. ------------------------------------------------------ And this kind of > > idea, that things do not exist, is one of the extremes rejected by the > Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do not maintain that nothing exists. Some things do, and some don't. And many of those that don't exist "truly", still do exist conventionally. It is a conventional truth that the tree in my garden exists, that you exist, and that I exist. I would be insane to deny this. But these are only conventional existents, not actualities. (In this regard, please look at my previous post entitled "Existence". ---------------------------------------------------- All things exist as compounded and conditioned phenomena, even that > > referent is a compounded and conditioned phenomena, which has the same > nature as the mental fabrication which arises based on that referent which > is also compounded and conditioned. > > > I find it quite amazing that the most prevalent interpretation of the > abhidhamma stating that there are paramatha dhammas, which are true > existents, inevitably forces one to take this idealistic position of saying > that so called conventional realities, i.e., all the rest which are not > paramatha dhammas, do not exist. If paramatha dhammas are the only things > that truly exist then all the rest cannot exist. This is a very odd position > > to be in because it is at the same time the two extremes rejected by the > Buddha, existence and non-existence. > =========================== Michael, let's take as an example one of my favorite conventional objects, the tree in my garden. I look out the window now and I "see" it. But do I really? What I actually see, I believe, is a visual object/sight (the entire objective content of the visual experience), and this is quickly followed by a series of mental operations which include, via sa~n~na, carving out a particular pattern that is matched to a mental construct passed along in the mental stream and marked as "tree". When I then "walk out back," the sight is an entirely different one, and yet I seem to see "that same tree". This is how our conceptual faculty operates. What actually corresponds to what I call "the tree in my garden" is an *incredibly* complex of complexes of multi-layered constructs built from a vast network of direct impressions through several sense doors, including level upon level of more elementary concepts, and all that superimposed on a particular occasion of seeing. The so called tree in my garden, a supposedly existing external "thing," is never encountered, but only seems to be. It is a well grounded, merely conventional existent. Just as Heraclitus said that one never steps twice in the same river, one never sees twice the same tree! And this is not because the tree is an existing thing that changes, but because the tree, itself, is never seen at all, even once, except conventionally. The immense multitude of interrelated conditions and phenomena underlying our mental tree-constructs have been truly and actually observed, but that is all. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28632 From: Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 11:31am Subject: Correction Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation: To Mike B And Ken O Hi all - Please correct my syntax in the following by inserting the bracketed material where indicated: > What actually corresponds to what I call "the tree in my garden" is an > *incredibly* complex [mental structure composed] of complexes of multi-layered > constructs built from a vast network of direct impressions through several > sense doors, including level upon level of more elementary concepts, and all that > superimposed on a particular occasion of seeing. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28633 From: Andrew Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 4:53pm Subject: Extolling, disparaging & teaching Dhamma Hi folks I have just read the Exposition of Non-Conflict (Aranavibhanga Sutta, MN139)and found some aspects of the Buddha's exposition to the monks perplexing. Maybe someone has some thoughts on these points: 1. Buddha said "One should know what it is to extol and what it is to disparage, and knowing both, one should neither extol nor disparage but should teach only the Dhamma". This seems to imply that teaching Dhamma never involves extolling or disparaging. The sutta gives examples of extolling and disparaging which take the form of "those who do X are on the right way" and "those who do Y are on the wrong way". Teaching Dhamma takes the form of "the doing of X is a state without suffering and it is the right way". Was Buddha simply telling the monks that they should discuss/debate doctrinal points in non-inflammatory language? Or can we read something deeper into this? Is this authority for the view that Dhamma is purely descriptive rather than prescriptive [an oldie but a goodie]? 2. Buddha also said "one should not insist on local language, and one should not override normal usage". This is explained along the lines of, if I say "tomato sauce" and you say "ketchup", I should not insist that only "tomato sauce" is correct. That doesn't seem very profound, does it - and yet it is. Language can be very divisive eg the battle in Norway earlier last century between 2 dialects of Norwegian that saw people sacked for pronouncing the word "snow" differently. I can only imagine that the Sangha had a smattering of "grammar-dictators" at the time, people who were attached to their language/dialect and wanted to impose it on others? Flexibility helps condition non-conflict. Even on humble DSG, I think, this can be displayed by not insisting on the use of English or Pali terms, for example. I hope you have found these thoughts of interest. Metta Andrew 28634 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 6:07pm Subject: SN I.1 (1) for Sarah Dear Sarah, While reading these passages on the beauty of devas, I thought of the Shwedagon Temple in Myanmar, as I had told people back here that if there is a heaven then it may well look like the S.T. Fill it with the splendid devas - o my!!! But [hello Christine], I understand that, supposedly, towards the end of their lives, devas begin to 'dim' and lose their grand splendor and some even know where they will be reborn. mmmmmm, nasty. Just 2 points here. Firsly, imagine how much conceit a deva may possibly accumulate when they seem forever to be praising each other and telling ea other about their wondrous good deeds, not to mention how beautiful they all are. Secondly, imagine in the last few days losing all that beauty and knowing you may be going somewhere awful!!! very nasty. These are just the musings of an overworked pediatric nurse, who comes home from work covered in all sorts of strange things put there by small children. 'err, what's that?' and I love my job. patience, courage and good cheer, and remember the 'tick tack tick tack' Azita ps. I watched from my window, Num run past that hotel we stayed at in Yangon. We didn't know it was him at the time, we just commented that it did'nt look like a Burmese person, bigger and jogging. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine, (James & All), > > I greatly appreciated all the posts on SN1, ......... Anyway, a few bits to add here: ... Snip ....... > All the devas and devatas in these stories have `excesive splendour, being > of variegated colours and shapes' and so on. They are always asked what > great deeds they performed as humans which have resulted in `such > complexion' and `shining majesty' which `radiates in all directions'. ....more snipping.... Mahamoggalana could see the good and bad deeds performed and usually > the devatas also knew the deeds performed. > > We read that `O adorned one' and so on indicate the `distinctive > splendour' and excellent `existence', `for just as a glittering golden > ornament, put together by a well trained master of his craft even, and > itself inlaid with gems and jwels that blaze forth in a network of divers > rays, shines, but not exclusively, even so does this individual > personality, shining to its four corners....' and so on. > > Just looked at the clock. Time to run as Num used to say... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > > 28635 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 6:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the Four Noble Truths Hi Ben, I think you've got some interesting questions. I would encourage you to visit some monasteries and find a Dhamma teacher of virtue, concentration, and wisdom. The Dhamma teacher can help you with your questions. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Benjamin Jerome" wrote: > To everyone, > > I have some thoughts and questions about the Dhamma. [snip] 28636 From: Egberdina Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 7:00pm Subject: Two to tango (was Re: Contraception and the First Precept) Hi Christine and everyone, I've been spending a bit of time on this one :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > [To deliberately kill a living being (i.e. to complete an unwholesome > course of action - akusala kamma patha) five constituent factors must > be fulfilled. > There must be: > - A living being > - Knowledge that there is a living being > - Desire to kill > - Effort to kill > - Consequential death] > I wonder how it can be known with any firm certainty that a state of affairs is attributable entirely to desire, intention and effort to bring that state of affairs about. I'm watching some cricket at the moment, and I'm always amused by the commentators exclaiming "What a great ball" or "What a great shot" or "What a great catch" as though it was all due to the intention, desire and effort of the player in focus, and not to the contribitory effort or negligence of the other players involved. Dukkha is a mark of all conditioned phenomena, precisely because desire, intention and effort to bring an exact state of affairs about is never guaranteed of that result. I may repeatedly swing a piece of 4 by 2 at an assailant, fully desiring, intending and efforting to kill her, but what the consequences of all that are have very much to do with how well my intended victim ducks and weaves. Never mind the medical neglicence that may finish her off if she is unfortunate enough to require attention from an expert. (I am certainly not referring to allied health and nursing here Hi Azita :-) It is in the thinking and rethinking that the story of "what I have done" is produced, me thinks. Wouldn't it be a form of pride to claim a state of affairs as being entirely the product of one's own desire, intention and effort? All the best Herman 28637 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 0:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] tanha and intention Hi, Nina Yes, self is always there but, as we know, if there are also moments of panna, however weak they may be, understanding will gradually grow, so no need to worry! Even weak panna is fast enough ;-)). The moments with panna may be imperceptible, but we have the confidence that the if the correct cause is developed the results will follow. Over time, it can be seen whether there has been any wearing away of the adze-handle. (There are no other indicators, as far as I know. This is another topic, perhaps.) Self will be there all the way until enlightenment, so we need not be discouraged by its presence! But as you say it’s good to recognise more how subtly it works its way. Yes, it’d be good to hear from Kom and Mike on these areas. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: N: What about a hardly perceptible selection, say, as I just was talking about to Howard, of awareness of akusala citta. That is a good point for Bgk!!! We know that it is very necessary to be aware of akusala, but as you say, it has fallen away. We need fast panna! It is no good to skip akusala and it is no good to select akusala as object of awareness. What subtle tricks tanha plays us all the time. I like to hear more about this, even before Bgk, and others may too. If Kom and Mike have time it would be very beneficial, they have also good ideas. I think that A. Sujin would say: self behind it all. She lets you feel this and then I can't help laughing. Jokes again! Nina. 28638 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Michael I've been enjoying the spirited exchanges between you and Ken O (and Howard). I think I now understand your position more clearly (although still am not in agreement with it ;-)). I appreciated your comment in a post to Ken O that the purpose of the teachings of the Buddha was not ontological but the end of suffering. I'm sure that keeping this in mind helps in gaining a better understanding of the teachings. At the same time, and as you have also commented, a correct intellectual understanding is crucial because any misconception held is bound to manifest as some from of wrong view/practice. So we need to continue to discuss and analyse. Michael: Then, to be consistent with your approach, you should also disregard the commentaries to the Canon because those are certainly not ‘words spoken by the Buddha.’ Show me a sutta where the Buddha affirms that the aggregates are paramatha and have sabhava. Those ideas come from the commentaries. Jon: The commentaries hold a special place in the Theravadin tradition. They are accorded great authority, not so much because of the authority of the individual compilers but because they have received the endorsement of the Great Councils. They are the voice of the 'Thera's' for whom 'Theravada' takes its name. Michael: I probably didn’t express myself correctly. My problem is with stating ‘own’ characteristics. As if the characteristic would be something intrinsic to that thing. Jon: A 'characteristic' must, to my understanding, be a characteristic *of something*, in the present context, of dhammas. It is dhammas that are to be known by panna, and what panna knows is the characteristic *of dhammas*. Different dhammas have different characteristics; instances of the same dhamma have the same characteristic. In fact, it is only by its characteristic(s) that anything can be known, and this is so regardless of whether the thing in question is seen as being permanent and unconditioned or as impermanent and conditioned. Michael: This is wrong view because it falls into reification. Jon: I think it's important to remember that right view/wrong view comes down to right or wrong view *of dhammas* and, in particular, of the presently arising dhamma. To my reading, the suttas are concerned with the development of the understanding of the true nature of dhammas, to be developed in respect of a presently arising dhamma. A correct understanding of what the Buddha taught about characteristics is of course necessary for the development of right view and the overcoming of wrong view. Michael: Characteristics are subject to conditionality as well and therefore cannot be intrinsic. In the conditioned world there is absolutely nothing that is not subject to conditions, and if something is subject to conditions it cannot exist by its own power. Words like paramatha and sabhava do not apply in the conditioned world. Jon: I do question your assumptions here. To say that characteristics are subject to conditionality, in the same way as are the things to which they pertain (if I have understood you correctly), seems to be according to the characteristic the same status as the thing to which the characteristic pertains. That doesn't seem right to me (that would make the characteristic a thing too!). A characteristic exhibited by something is by definition a quality or feature *of/pertaining to* the thing. It cannot be separate from, or arise or exist independently of, the thing to which it pertains; in this sense the characteristic is intrinsic to the thing it pertains to. I would be very surprised if you could find a dictionary definition that indicates otherwise. Moreover, things that are conditioned and impermanent exhibit characteristics by which they can be known, just as something that was unconditioned and permanent could do. Thus I do not see any inconsistency between 'exhibiting a characteristic' and 'conditioned nature'. The 2 are not in any sense mutually exclusive.. But it seems to me that all this is to some extent semantics. The important thing surely, as I know you agree, is the development of the path taught by the Buddha, which I understand to mean the development of insight into the true nature of dhammas. By such development, different dhammas are known by panna to be different dhammas, and different instances of the same dhamma are known by panna to be instances of the same dhamma. Nama is known as nama (and not rupa), rupa as rupa (and not nama); kusala is known as kusala (and not akusala), akusala as akusala (and not kusala); seeing consciousness is known as seeing consciousness (and not visible-object), visible-object as visible-object (and not seeing consciousness); and so on. This to me is the practical application of what we are here discussing. And also of course that all conditioned dhammas are known as having the characteristics of anicca/dukkha/anatta. Jon 28639 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] The present moment Herman Thanks for sharing these thoughts. I appreciate your non-conventional take on things ;-)). Of course, one always comes back to the vital question of what I will call the application, that is to say, in terms of your post here, How does there come to be 'a glimpse the present in terms of itself'? How does one come to be 'free of intention'? In your follow-up post to Howard, you offer the following words of inspiration from Samyutta Nikaya I.10 Arañña Sutta: <<< Standing to one side, a devata addressed the Blessed One with a verse: Living in the wilderness, staying peaceful, remaining chaste, eating just one meal a day: why are their faces so bright & serene? [The Buddha:] They don't sorrow over the past, don't long for the future. They survive on the present. That's why their faces are bright & serene. From longing for the future, from sorrowing over the past, fools wither away like a green reed cut down. >>> Inspiring words, I agree. But my earlier question then becomes, How does there come to be no sorrowing over the past, no longing for the future, just surviving on the present? I know you will have some thoughts on this, and I look forward to hearing them ;-)). Many thanks for the New Year wishes in your other post. And the best to you, too. Jon --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi everyone, (that includes me) > > There are two types of present moment. > > One is the PRESENT as experienced in terms of the PAST. This > present > is not a given, but is constructed entirely on intention. Intention > is based in the past to maintain it in the future. It is always > based on self-view. The purpose of this type of present moment is > indeed to maintain in the future the self-view that lies at it's > origin. This type of present moment is always accompanied by > conflict and anxiety, because it requires much effort to maintain > the illusion of the reality of what is not real. When the conflict > and anxiety become greater than the craving for the next moment > with > self view, the opportunity has arisen to not intend a future moment > based on the past, and thus obtain a glimpse of the > > Present in terms of itself. This moment is given, unchangeable, > timeless. It has no content. It is free of anxiety and conflict. > > This moment is not intended, but is there when there is no > intention. > > The Buddha praised a lifestyle in which it was possible to become > free of intention. The only consequence that follows from ignoring > his recommendations is the continuation of the past-future life > that > is craved for. Anxiety and conflict and lip service to the Triple > Gem can go on forever. 28640 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Howard Regarding your query about the citta process, there is the following entry in the Appendix to Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary': <<< citta-víthi, Citta vithi, as well as all terms for the various functions within the processes of conseiousness, such as ávajjana-citta, sampaticchana, santírana, votthapana, javana, tadárammana, bhavanga, cuti: none of these terms is found in the Sutta Canon. except javana, in Pts.M. Even in the Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana and bhavanga are twice or thrice briefly mentioned. The stages, however, must have been more or less known. Cf. e.g Patth: "Cakkhu-viññánam tam sampayuttaká ca dhammá (= cetasiká) mano-dhátuyá (performing the sampaticchana-function), tam sampayuttakánañ ca dhammánam (cetasikánani) anantara-paccayena paccayo. Mano-dhátu ... manoviññána-dhátuya (performing the santírana and votthapana function).... Purimá purimá kusalá dhammá (javaná) pacchimánam pacchimánam kusalánam dhammánam (javanacittánam) anantara-paccayena paccayo... avyákatánam dhammánam (tadárammana- and bhavanga-cittánam....)." >>> I see it as a case of the commentaries making explicit what is implicit in the suttas (which after all is the function of a commentary). Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > ... I'm talking about all the bhavanga cittas, and javana > cittas, and registration cittas etc, etc. > ... > The Thought Process > 1 Atita Bhavanga (Past Bhavanga) > 2 Bhavanga Calana (Vibrating Bhavanga) > 3 Bhavanga Upaccheda (Arrest Bhavanga) > 4 Avajjana (Sense-door consciousness) > 5 Panca Viññana (Sense consciousness) > 6 Sampaticchana (Receiving consciousness) > 7 Santirana (Investigating consciousness) > 8 Votthapana (Determining consciousness) > 9,10,11,12,13,14,15 JAVANA > 16,17 Tadalambana Registering consciousness) 28641 From: Jeffrey S. Brooks Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 10:57pm Subject: Re: 4 Sati Suttas? Thank-you Sarah for the clarification and the suggested reading. I was hopeful though that there was yet another Sati sutta, and it would turn out to be even more clearly committed to jhana. I'll study your suggested Sutta thought and see where it takes me. Blessings, Jeff Brooks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Jeff, Sarah and all, > > Enjoying your discussion. Perhaps when Sarah referred to the 4 > Satipatthanas she was meaning the Four Foundations of Mindfulness > themselves - Kayanupassana (constant observation of the body), > Vedananupassana (constant observation of sensation), cittanupassana > (constant observation of the mind), and Dhammanupassana (constant > observation of the contents of the mind). > > Jeff - with your enthusiasm for all things Jhana, you may be > interested in AN VIII.63 the Sankhitta Sutta 'In Brief (Good Will, > Mindfulness, & Concentration)' > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-063.html > Thanissaro says: "This discourse is important in that it explicitly > refers to the practice of the four frames of reference (the four > foundations of mindfulness) as a form of concentration practice, > mastered in terms of the levels of jhana." > > Just a brief look, so this is not comprehensive, but in the > Satipatthaanasamyutta there are 104 suttas (some repetition) in > the "Connected Discourses on the Establishments of Mindfulness" > (Wisdom. Bhikkhu Bodhi). A small number of Thanissaro's translations > of these suttas are on-line at: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html#Maha > > MN 119 Kayagata-sati sutta 'Mindfulness immersed in the Body' > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey S. Brooks" > wrote: > > Hello Sarah, in my last post forgot to ask you about the following > > comment you made. I am only familiar with the three following Sati > > Suttas? > > > > Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html > > Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN. 22) > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html > > Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html > > > > > > Is there another one that I should be aware of? > > > > Best regards, > > > > Jeff Brooks > > 28642 From: Jeffrey S. Brooks Date: Sat Jan 3, 2004 11:03pm Subject: Re: vitakka and vicára Thank-you Htoo Naing, it seems you and I have won the field, and now we may retire to our jhana. Best regards, Jeff Brooks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Jeff, > > What a good question that you made. Yes this matter need to be > clarified. That translation as thoughts are not enough for Vitakka > and Vicara. But when Cetasikas are studied in detail this matter will > become clear. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing <........> 28643 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Nina: "Why not use the Abhidhamma terms straight?" > > Larry: Daily life, Nina, daily life. These terms are meaningless > jargon if we can't relate them to daily life. Yes, but giving these terms our own meaning is not the way to relate them to daily life ;-)) Besides, not everything we study has a direct 'daily life' counterpart. Sometimes the relationship will be difficult to see (such as the rupa that is nutritive essence). Even such often-mentioned cetasikas as phassa/contact and ekagatta/concentration can only be appreciated at an intellectual level. Part of the problem lies in the fact that our conventional notions of these things is vastly different from the meaning of the term as used in the teachings. This can make it difficult to consider on its own merits what is found in the teachings. > I disagree with what you said > about salt. Salt is a nutritional substance, an example of the 8 > inseparables, produced by temperature. It is a mineral; not a > plant. It depends if you are talking in purely conventional terms. For the reasons just discussed, nutritional essence as 1 of the 8 inseparables cannot be related the items on your dinner table in particular. This may be confusing (exasperating, even), but careful reflection helps keep the 2 frames of reference from becoming confused. Jon 28644 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 2:32am Subject: Theft of a flowers' scent Hello All, Speaking of devas :-) I'm looking for a particular sutta and can't put my finger on it. I attended a Dhamma discussion with friends this afternoon. One of the topics was the second Precept about abstaining from taking what is not given. At one point, I recalled a sutta about a deva and a bhikkhu and the theft of a flowers' scent. This statement was met by ... is there such a thing as 'polite derision'? :-) It is a bit odd though, don't you think? One doesn't steal a scent - scents float around in the air, not belonging to anyone. Does anyone know where I can find the sutta, and more importantly, what could be the point of such a teaching? metta and all, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28645 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Michael I hope you don’t mind if I come in on this thread. I would like to make some comments about the five khandhas, rupas and conventional objects. M: If we can realize that more concrete conditioned dhammas can be divided into parts, one can infer that the breakdown into parts is a characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. If you say hardness cannot be subdivided there is an assumption that this is as far as it goes, and that implies some kind of enduring thing in that hardness which does not allow for further reduction, and that in my view is almost the same as arguing for an essence. J: I think I can see where you are coming from here. You see conventional matter/objects as being instances of 'more concrete conditioned dhammas', and rupas as being the supposed basic components of conventional matter/objects. If that were so, then I would understand your logic in suggesting that rupas could be further broken down. However, I believe rupas are something else altogether. Rupas are an aspect of the actuality of the present moment. The visible-object presently being experienced through the eye-door is a rupa, as is the audible-object presently being experienced through the ear door. They are separate and distinct rupas. However, they are not the 'objects' that, by thinking, we perceive to be seen or heard through those sense-doors, nor are they a sub-set of those 'objects'. In terms of the dhamma, those supposed objects have no existence, and are purely mind-created. In an earlier post to Ken O you said: M: Can there be further reduction [of the five khandhas] beyond cetasikas? There has to be otherwise the cetasika is not conditioned and becomes a paramatha with some kind of essence, and this contradicts dependent origination. Apples and oranges are not the same but they are also conditioned and can be reduced. How far can they be reduced? Modern science is still struggling with this, so there is no answer. J: Modern science of course is not struggling with dhammas/khandhas/cetasikas, but with conventional objects. I have no problem with the proposition that conventional objects can be reduced endlessly, but that has no application as regards rupas, because there is no particular correlation between the two (i.e., conventional objects and rupas). That is why some of us have difficulty seeing your arguments regarding conditions and essence. I hope I have at least identified the source of the difference here, even though I know you will have difficulty agreeing ;-)). Jon --- Michael Beisert wrote: Hello Howard, ... I generally agree with what you say, and from what I saw in your messages so far I think we have much more to agree on than to disagree. The only exception I would make in relation to this message is that I don’t see a reason why the so called paramatha dhammas, like your example of hardness, cannot be divided into parts. ... If we can realize that more concrete conditioned dhammas can be divided into parts, one can infer that the breakdown into parts is a characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. If you say hardness cannot be subdivided there is an assumption that this is as far as it goes, and that implies some kind of enduring thing in that hardness which does not allow for further reduction, and that in my view is almost the same as arguing for an essence. 28646 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] cetasikas which produce rupas Nina Thanks very much for coming in on this. I agree that cetasikas have a big role to play, acting in association with the citta they accompany. Particularly interesting among the passages you have quoted is that relating to jhana condition. The examples are very 'everyday life'! Jon PS Thanks also for your many other posts full of interesting information and comments. I am amazed at your output! I do wish I had time to join in your threads more. --- nina van gorkom wrote: N: Nyanaponika Abh. Studies, Appendix 3, the Factors of Absorption. He deals with jhanafactors, and jhana-condition taken also in a wider sense (also akusala), not just absorption in samatha. They have an intensifying influence on the other accompaying cetasikas and the simultaneous corporeal phenomena.< It is their presence that enables a state of consciousness to produce corporeal phenomena> (Co and subco to Khandha Vibhanga). p. 65, jhana-condition: without it one cannot: <1. shoot birds and animals, 2, what and whose form it is, 3. to take one straight step forward correctly, for, if at the beginning the foot was pointed eastwards, it would point southwards in the middle and westwards at the end of the step. Or else, while taking the step forward, the mind would take another object and forget about the step altogether.4. To pronounce one word correctly. This shows how swiftly the mind is distracted and changed...> What pointed reminders for everyday life, even when walking or pronouncing words!!! Nina. 28647 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theft of a flowers' scent Hi Christine Initally I have rejected the offers by RobK to go to Bkk. After a few thoughts, if the lodging cost is not too high, it could be a possibility. Could you kindly telling how much does one nite stay in Bkk in the hotel that the group plan to stay (in US or baht). Once I have the basic cost of the hotel, then it will be possible to know whether I can make this trip or not since the airfare is relatively cheap (about US$140) When does the discussion starts on 27 Jan (morning or afternoon) should I arrive on 26 Jan or 27 Jan. I remember it ends on 31 Jan. Is the group plans to stay a few more days for recreation or not. thanks and regards Ken O 28648 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 2:57am Subject: Re: Theft of a flowers' scent Hi all sorry supposedly to be off-list arghhhhhhhh, technology one click and.......... kind rgds Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine > > Initally I have rejected the offers by RobK to go to Bkk. > > After a few thoughts, if the lodging cost is not too high, it could > be a possibility. > > Could you kindly telling how much does one nite stay in Bkk in the > hotel that the group plan to stay (in US or baht). Once I have the > basic cost of the hotel, then it will be possible to know whether I > can make this trip or not since the airfare is relatively cheap > (about US$140) > > When does the discussion starts on 27 Jan (morning or afternoon) > should I arrive on 26 Jan or 27 Jan. I remember it ends on 31 Jan. > Is the group plans to stay a few more days for recreation or not. > > > > thanks and regards > Ken O 28649 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] What the Buddha taught Herman H: It can be said that what a person says is what they teach. Their sayings reflect their beliefs. But a far better indicator of what a person believes is what they do. What a person does is a teaching of what they believe. J: This is an acute observation and generally true I believe. However, to my mind it does not hold true in the case of a perfectly enlightened being. Can give specific instances of the Buddha's words not matching his deeds, and what is your theory as to the reason for the difference? H: ... Clearly, the Buddha is teaching, by doing, the value of seclusion and inactivity. Is seclusion and inactivity the Dhamma? Of course not. But seclusion and inactivity is, by the Buddha's example, creating the opportunity for insight into the Dhamma, whether wet, dry or otherwise to arise. J: Now this is something different from your opening proposition. What you are saying here is that by observing how a person acts we can learn how he came to be how he is. I think there is a danger in this approach. To give an obvious illustration, it would be misguided to think we could learn how to become wealthy or successful by observing how wealthy or successful people act. Surely we would be better off listening to what advice they have to pass on. Besides, in his discourses the Buddha frequently urged his listeners to *listen* more, but never to *observe* him. Should we ignore this advice? ;-)) Jon 28650 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theft of a flowers' scent Ken, We can probably arange for you to stay at the foundation for free. Hotels are as cheap as you want or as expensive. I used to stay in $2.50 a night ratholes - and great fun it was- but graduated to 3star a few years back (about $30). Sarah and Nina will be staying in 5star near the foundation but a little steep for me. rob dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine > > Initally I have rejected the offers by RobK to go to Bkk. > > After a few thoughts, if the lodging cost is not too high, it could > be a possibility. > > Could you kindly telling how much does one nite stay in Bkk in the > hotel that the group plan to stay (in US or baht). Once I have the > basic cost of the hotel, then it will be possible to know whether I > can make this trip or not since the airfare is relatively cheap > (about US$140) > > When does the discussion starts on 27 Jan (morning or afternoon) > should I arrive on 26 Jan or 27 Jan. I remember it ends on 31 Jan. > Is the group plans to stay a few more days for recreation or not. > > > > thanks and regards > Ken O 28651 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 3:05am Subject: Re: Theft of a flowers' scent Dear Christine, from Nina van Gorkom: ""When we study cittas more in detail it will help us to know ourselves. We should know not only the coarse lobha but also the degrees of lobha which are more subtle. The following sutta gives an example of lobha which is more subtle. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (I, Sagatha-vagga IX, Forest Suttas,par.14): A certain monk was once staying among the Kosalese in a certain forest-tract. Now while there that monk, after he had returned from his alms-round and had broken his fast, plunged into the lotus-pool and sniffed up the perfume of a red lotus. Then the deva who haunted that forest-tract, moved with compassion for that monk, desiring his welfare, and wishing to agitate him, drew near and addressed him in the verse: 'That blossom, water-born, thing not given, You stand sniffing up the scent of it. This is one class of things that may be stolen. And you a smell-thief must I call, dear sir.' The Monk : 'Nay, nought I bear away, I nothing break. Standing apart I smell the water's child. Now for what reason am I smell-thief called? One who does dig up water-lilies, one Who feeds on lotuses, in motley tasks Engaged: Why have you no such name for him?' The Deva : 'A man of ruthless, wicked character, Foul-flecked as is a handmaid's dirty cloth: With such the words I say have no concern. But this it is meet that I should say (to you): To him whose character is void of vice, Who ever makes quest for what is pure: What to the wicked but a hair-tip seems, To him does great as a rain-cloud appear....' We should also know the more subtle lobha which arises when we enjoy a fragrant smell or beautiful music. It seems that there are no akusala cittas when we do not harm others, but also the more subtle lobha is akusala; it is different from generosity which is kusala. We cannot force ourselves not to have lobha, but we can get to know the characteristic of lobha when it appears. Not only the suttas, but the Vinaya (Book of Discipline for the monks) also gives examples of lobha which is more subtle. Each part of the teachings, the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma can help us to know ourselves better. When we read the Vinaya we see that even the monks who lead a life of contentment with little, still have accumulated conditions for lobha. Every time there was a case where monks deviated from their purity of life, a rule was laid down in order to help them to be more watchful. Thus we can understand the usefulness of the rules, which go into even the smallest details of the monk's behaviour. The rules help the monk to be watchful even when performing the most common actions of daily life such as eating, drinking, robing himself and walking. There are rules which forbid seemingly innocent actions like playing in the water or with water (Pacittiya 53), or teasing other monks. Such actions are not done with kusala cittas, but with akusala cittas."" http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-05.htm In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello All, > > Speaking of devas :-) > I'm looking for a particular sutta and can't put my finger on it. I > attended a Dhamma discussion with friends this afternoon. One of the > topics was the second Precept about abstaining from taking what is > not given. At one point, I recalled a sutta about a deva and a > bhikkhu and the theft of a flowers' scent. This statement was met > by ... is there such a thing as 'polite derision'? :-) > It is a bit odd though, don't you think? One doesn't steal a scent - > scents float around in the air, not belonging to anyone. Does anyone > know where I can find the sutta, and more importantly, what could be > the point of such a teaching? > > metta and all, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28652 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 3:08am Subject: Ken O :-) Hello Ken O, Darn technology! :-) But never mind, yours was just a simple post - I've seen actually embarrassing things end up on the discussion lists because of viruses posting personal opinions from private folders. I'll write off-list. cheers, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi all > > sorry supposedly to be off-list arghhhhhhhh, technology one click > and.......... > > kind rgds > Ken O 28653 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Jon, Jon: I do question your assumptions here. To say that characteristics are subject to conditionality, in the same way as are the things to which they pertain (if I have understood you correctly), seems to be according to the characteristic the same status as the thing to which the characteristic pertains. That doesn't seem right to me (that would make the characteristic a thing too!). A characteristic exhibited by something is by definition a quality or feature *of/pertaining to* the thing. It cannot be separate from, or arise or exist independently of, the thing to which it pertains; in this sense the characteristic is intrinsic to the thing it pertains to. Michael: Yes, I agree that a characteristic cannot be separated or arise independently of the characterized. But the argument that the characteristic is intrinsic to the characterized is substantialism and this contradicts the principle of dependent origination. If there is an essence in a thing, that thing will not be subject to conditions, an essence is not affected by conditions. To avoid this fall into substantialism it makes more sense to think of characteristic and characterized as being mutually interdependent. Jon: The important thing surely, as I know you agree, is the development of the path taught by the Buddha ….. Michael: Yes, the development of the path is key, fully agree on that. Metta Michael 28654 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theft of a flowers' scent Hi KenO. --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine > > Initally I have rejected the offers by RobK to go to Bkk. > > After a few thoughts, if the lodging cost is not too high, it could > be a possibility. .... We'd all be delighted if you can join us in Bkk. As Rob said, you could probably stay a few days at the Foundation or if the room is booked at a cheap hotel nearby. I know you'd help keep the discussions very lively too;-) Hope to meet you very much. Metta, Sarah ===== 28655 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 3:29am Subject: Re: Theft of a flowers' scent Hi Rob and everyone, This one is meant just as a joke, I just can't resist it :-) Does the number of stars relate to the height of the beds at all? Cheers and enjoy your gettogether Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Ken, > We can probably arange for you to stay at the foundation for free. > Hotels are as cheap as you want or as expensive. I used to stay in > $2.50 a night ratholes - and great fun it was- but graduated to > 3star a few years back (about $30). Sarah and Nina will be staying > in 5star near the foundation but a little steep for me. > rob 28656 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 3:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [James] Hi James & Dan, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Dan, > > (Hmm…seems like your pleasant sense of humor has turned a bit sour. > I may be hesitant to continue further.) .... I think you're having a very good discussion and touching on many interesting points which we're all appreciating. I even printed out some parts for my brother who shares your (James's) allergy to too much Pali;-) I hope you will continue. James, let me assure you that this is very mild and good-humoured for Dan;-) He is also very selective in whom he addresses, so please take it in good faith. Dan, a great New Year gift to have you around;-) As you both indicate, the Kamada sutta is an interesting one. Metta, Sarah ====== 28658 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 4:11am Subject: Re: Theft of a flowers' scent Dear Robert, and all, Great! Thanks Robert! - now I can email it to the Doubting Thomases (i.e. doubting Klaas and doubting Andy). Lobha is involved with all stealing, of course. One of the other members of the Brisbane discussion group felt that breaking this Precept really revealed a person's belief in a Self. i.e. needing to satisfy one's own important craving, even though it meant possibly depriving someone else of something, in either an unethical or illegal manner. I have now found the sutta on p. 303 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's Connected Discourses 1 The Book with Verses (Sagaathaavagga) Vanasamyutta 14 The Thief of Scent. Pretty tough last verse reply from a Devataa though, after the Bhikkhu asks the Devataa: "Surely, spirit, you understand me, And you have compassion for me. Please, O spirit, speak to me again, Whenever you see such a deed." [the devataa] "We do't live with your support, Nor are we your hired servant. You, bhikkhu, should know for yourself The way to a good destination." [n. 557] I think it shows that the bhikkhu was trying to shift responsibility for strictly guarding the sense doors from himself to the devataa, and the devataa refused to get involved. The note 557 says "The devataa, it is said, thought: "This bhikkhu might become negligent, thinking he has a deity looking after his welfare. I won't accept his proposal." I hope Bhikkhus are expected to have a much higher standard than we lay people - or I'll start to feel guilty using up all the rose- scented bath salts I got for Christmas. :-) It seems the devas aren't only within their designated Samyuttas. I've found quite a number of devatta in the Bhikkhunisamyutta, the Vangisasamyutta, Vanasamyutta, the Sakkasamyutta, the Khandasamyutta, the Ghandhabbasamyutta, the Salaayatanavagga, the Moggallaanasamyutta, the Indriyasamutta, the Sotaapattisamyutta, and the Saccasamyutta. It is a bit difficult to find them being such a large part of the teaching of the Dhamma - not having seen one, it is not something verifiable from experience. When I could think of them as a 'dressing up' the Teachings (like the Herald Angels), but not necessarily real, I felt more comfortable - and I don't feel inclined to accept them on blind faith - something else for the 'too hard' basket, I guess. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Christine, > from Nina van Gorkom: We read in the 'Kindred > Sayings' (I, Sagatha-vagga IX, Forest Suttas,par.14): > http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-05.htm 28659 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 4:28am Subject: Re: Theft of a flowers' scent --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" < > I hope Bhikkhus are expected to have a much higher standard than we > lay people - or I'll start to feel guilty using up all the rose- > scented bath salts I got for Christmas. :-) > It seems the devas aren't only within their designated Samyuttas. > I've found quite a number of devatta in the Bhikkhunisamyutta, the > Vangisasamyutta, Vanasamyutta, the Sakkasamyutta, the Khandasamyutta, > the Ghandhabbasamyutta, the Salaayatanavagga, the > Moggallaanasamyutta, the Indriyasamutta, the Sotaapattisamyutta, and > the Saccasamyutta. > It is a bit difficult to find them being such a large part of the > teaching of the Dhamma - not having seen one, it is not something > verifiable from experience. ======== Dear Christine, What can I say, it all seems so realistic to me. Good deeds bring their results, why should all good results be limited to this small human realm we see in front of us. Such a big universe. Laypeople live very different lives from Bhikkhus, we take pleasure in sense objects. Even sotapanna like Visakkha wear expensive clothes, live lives of luxury; and even some sakadagami may enjoy sexual relations. However, these suttas remind us laypeople to develop awareness also of subtle clinging. It is the only way. Not by trying to be something other than we are, but by learning about what we really are: simply conditioned nama and rupa. Not so strange or mystical, but because of self-view it is all made very complicated. Still trying to find a babysitter so I can go to bangkok. Now KenO is coming it gets even more interesting. robk 28660 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 4:30am Subject: Re: Theft of a flowers' scent Herman, Appreciate your well wishing -couldn't get the joke though? rob In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > Hi Rob and everyone, > > This one is meant just as a joke, I just can't resist it :-) > > Does the number of stars relate to the height of the beds at all? > > Cheers and enjoy your gettogether > > > Herman > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" > wrote: > > Ken, > > We can probably arange for you to stay at the foundation for free. > > Hotels are as cheap as you want or as expensive. I used to stay in > > $2.50 a night ratholes - and great fun it was- but graduated to > > 3star a few years back (about $30). Sarah and Nina will be staying > > in 5star near the foundation but a little steep for me. > > rob 28661 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 5:00am Subject: How do you practice the Paramitas and Factors of Awakening Hello everyone. What advice would you give a beginner about how to approach the Paramitas in one's daily life? I'll be practicing the Mahayana 6. (Actually, I lean more towards Theravada in most things, but the 6 seem clearer to start with than 10!) Do you usually focus on one when you sense you need to make progress in that area, or keep a balanced awareness of all of them?I realize, of course, that the practice of one supports the others, but do you use a kind of selective focus? The same question goes for the 7 Factors of Awakening. (Sapta- Bodyanga) What role do they play in your practice? I sense that they serve more as a gauge to look in on how we're doing, and a helpful tool for balancing. (e.g, using one of more of the rousing factors when feeling sluggish, or a calming factor when feeling agitated.) I sense that the Paramitas and Factors of Awakening are very important. Really taking the Eightfold Path off the page and putting it into practice - that's how it feels to me anyways. Thanks for any guidance you can give me based on your experience. With Metta, Philip 28662 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 5:48am Subject: Re: Theft of a flowers' scent Dear Christine and all, When I followed this thread, I only found the related reply at 8th reply by Robert K. Dear Robert, may I ask you here who was that Bhikkhu? He was not an ordinary Bhikkhu, Wasn't he? Deva here was female Deva, I think. I am looking forward to hearing from you. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello All, > > Speaking of devas :-) > I'm looking for a particular sutta and can't put my finger on it. I > attended a Dhamma discussion with friends this afternoon. One of the > topics was the second Precept about abstaining from taking what is > not given. At one point, I recalled a sutta about a deva and a > bhikkhu and the theft of a flowers' scent. This statement was met > by ... is there such a thing as 'polite derision'? :-) > It is a bit odd though, don't you think? One doesn't steal a scent - > scents float around in the air, not belonging to anyone. Does anyone > know where I can find the sutta, and more importantly, what could be > the point of such a teaching? > > metta and all, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28663 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Dear Nina, (RobM & All), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > When more precise we can analyse a situation into different moments of > seeing, hearing, thinking. Thinking with like and dislike is not vipaka, > but > these follow very closely. Words of blame: seeing (when it is on > computer > screen), knowing the meaning of the words, this is not vipaka and after > that > feeling upset, that is akusala. Cittas are so fast, and only after the > event > we could say that there was akusala vipaka, and then we start to cry > over > spilt milk. ..... So true;-) I’m glad you’ve given these examples. Praise and blame and so on -- we’re all susceptible and have so little understanding of just what vipaka is most the time. And indeed the akusala vipaka may just be in our imagination -- we think we saw or heard something unpleasant, but as you say, the thinking about the words and the upset, annoyance or anger* follows so quickly. There is so little understanding of the accumulated tendencies as being the problem at these times. We all interpret what we see in different ways and so often misunderstand each other as a result as well. With more understanding and detachment towards what is conditioned, there is less dependence on praise and blame and the other worldly conditions. Gradually, our susceptibility to these will be worn away, but not by wishing that it be so, only by awareness and insight into conditioned dhammas. Not Nina’s or Sarah’s at all. We walked up a beautiful and remote mountain today and afterwards we were all tired. My brother made a couple of comments that may have been made affectionately, but they seemed rather sharp and for a while afterwards, I was still dwelling on the ‘story’ of these comments, even though I could tell myself how foolish it was to do so, especially after such a lovely outing in beautiful weather;-) We see all the time how conditioned dhammas are, not in anyone’s control. Now I’m smiling at the foolishness of such papanca, but soon there are bound to be more foolish stories again. They are so very common and show such deep attachment to oneself -- to what is heard, seen, touched, tasted and even smelt as we read about in the sutta. Metta, Sarah *SN2:3 Maagha At Savatthi. Then when the night had advanced, the young deva Magha, of stunning beauty, illuminating the entire Jeta’s Grove, approached the Blessed One. Having approached, he paid homage to the Blessed One, stood to one side, and addressed the Blessed One in verse**: “Having slain what does one sleep soundly? Having slain what does one not sorrow? What is the one thing, O Gotama, Whose killing you approve?” “Having slain anger, one sleeps soundly; Having slain anger, one does not sorrow; The killing of anger***, O Vatrabhu, With its poisoned root and honeyed tip: This is the killing the noble ones praise, For having slain that, one does not sorrow.” **Spk: “Maagha is a name for Sakka....” ***anger (kodha) ============= 28664 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 6:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [James] Hi Sarah and Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: I hope you will continue. James, let me assure you that this is very mild > and good-humoured for Dan;-) He is also very selective in whom he > addresses, so please take it in good faith. Dan, a great New Year gift to > have you around;-) As you both indicate, the Kamada sutta is an > interesting one. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Oh, sorry; I guess I jumped the gun a little bit. It's just that some of the descriptions were very shocking to me; not that I am that squeamish really, I recently saw "Freddie vs. Jason" (Arabic subtitles ;-)), a very bloody movie, but I know that it is just pretend. I guess descriptions of the real thing bother me more. Sorry Dan...don't be scared away!;-)) Metta, James 28665 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 6:20am Subject: Re: Theft of a flowers' scent- Herman Dear Herman, I thought your joke was quite clever. Esp. so given that one of the 10 precepts is to refrain from sleeping on high and luxurious beds. IMO the number of stars relate to how polite one has to be. Coming from the backblocks of Down Under - a sheep shearers daughter - I feel a tad uncomfortable in anything over 3 stars!!! However, I am a smell thief, often stopping to smell the gardenias which grow outside the city library. I have stopped picking them though. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Herman, > Appreciate your well wishing -couldn't get the joke though? > rob > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" > wrote: > > Hi Rob and everyone, > > > > This one is meant just as a joke, I just can't resist it :-) > > > > Does the number of stars relate to the height of the beds at all? > > > > Cheers and enjoy your gettogether > > > > > > Herman 28666 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 6:32am Subject: Re: Theft of a flowers' scent Dear Htoo, I think the bhikkhu was still a worldling, the devata (female deva) was concerned least his intoxication led to negligence. Robk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Christine and all, > > When I followed this thread, I only found the related reply at 8th > reply by Robert K. > > Dear Robert, may I ask you here who was that Bhikkhu? He was not an > ordinary Bhikkhu, Wasn't he? Deva here was female Deva, I think. > > I am looking forward to hearing from you. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hello All, > > > > Speaking of devas :-) > > I'm looking for a particular sutta and can't put my finger on it. > I > > attended a Dhamma discussion with friends this afternoon. One of > the > > topics was the second Precept about abstaining from taking what is > > not given. At one point, I recalled a sutta about a deva and a > > bhikkhu and the theft of a flowers' scent. This statement was met you have time --- 28667 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 6:38am Subject: Austerity Dear group, These verses were spoken by Mara "those engaged in austerity and scrupulousness, those protecting their solitude, and those settled on form, delighting in the world of devas: Indeed these mortals instruct rightly in regard to the other world." Bodhi page 162 Sagathavagga Devaputtasamyuatta 370 Robk 28668 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 7:20am Subject: Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [James] Dear James, The three main points I want to make are: (i) the path is wholesome through and through and is obscured from an unwholesome mind; (ii) following the path is difficult (as Kamada complained) but not impossible (as the Buddha reassured him); and (iii) knowledge and wisdom of the way cannot be forced by adherence to rules and rituals. The first of these points seems obvious, but there is a subtlety that is important to consider. Consciousness of the path arises and falls, arises and falls. When it arises, there is no lobha/dosa/moha; and only when it arises can it be said that a person is "on the path." When a mind that is harboring dosa or lobha or moha is said to be "following the path", that path is cannot be the Buddha's. The second point seems even more obvious, but sometimes it is easy to lose sight of the difficulty of following the path. Buddha discusses this point frequently in the suttas, but perhaps never in more stark terms than in MN 21: "Bhikkhus, even if bandits were to sever you savagely limb by limb with a two-handed saw, he who gave rise to a mind of hate towards them would not be carrying out my teachings." Nadsemaj may have been sincerely trying to follow the path when he sat quietly in the corner following Mahasi's instructions, but he gave rise to minds of hate, greed, and delusion. Whenever the lobha/dosa/moha arise, there is no carrying out of the Buddha's teachings, no following the path. The third point is subtler, deeper, and closer to the heart. It assaults everything we hold dear, and the natural response to hearing it is to resist vehemently. The desire of the Self to think of itself as "good", "sincere", "basically doing the right thing", "on the right track", etc. is incredibly strong. A few years ago, I read an article in the paper about a guy who had recently been arrested for armed robbery and assault. He was a violent man who had been in trouble with the law on numerous occasions for his violence. His take on the matter? "I'm basically a nice guy, as my friends will tell you." Most people don't think of such violent people as "nice", but the Self *loves* to create shiny images of itself and then polish the images at every opportunity. People really do love themselves tremendously and forgive themselves for any number of things that they would never tolerate in others. Until we can come to grips with just how frequently we stumble and how difficult it is to follow the path, the assessment of the progress we are making is bound to be grossly inflated, delusional. That is why I write things like "... if you are anything like me (viz., full of lobha/dosa/moha), you will be following the wrong path whether sitting, standing, walking, lying, eating, talking, writing, thinking, etc." At those times when the fog lifts momentarily, I am astounded at how much akusala I generate in a day and at how little real understanding arises. I know that such talk may sound discouraging and negative, but to realize just how strong of a grip lobha/dosa/moha exert is refreshing and liberating. Gradually there is the realization that the Self that the mind constructs and polishes is really not worth clinging to. As the realization of the strength of Mara's grip grows and develops, moments of mudita, karuna, and metta grow in strength and abundance because it is recognized that others are also caught tight in Mara's grip. But this understanding can't develop when lobha/dosa/moha are taken as part of the Buddha's path. Somehow, what I intended to write this morning didn't come out! We've been discussing what is and what is not the path, but I wanted to extend the discussion to some of the startling sights that are seen from that path. This will have to be postponed until later today (or within the next few days). The next 23 weeks or so are pretty busy for me, and I'll have to bow out again after we wrap up this thread. In the meantime, thank-you James for such pleasant and well considered discussion (excepting the "sour" comment, of course!). I've enjoyed it. Dan 28669 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 7:28am Subject: Re: Theft of a flowers' scent I had to chuckle at his joke. "High beds" and the eight precepts and all... Also, I too have stayed in a number of those rat holes in Bkk. They really are rat holes, and a higher bed might elevate someone just enough to be safe from those small (well ... not SO small), non- paying guests. Dan > Herman, > Appreciate your well wishing -couldn't get the joke though? > rob > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" > wrote: > > Hi Rob and everyone, > > > > This one is meant just as a joke, I just can't resist it :-) > > > > Does the number of stars relate to the height of the beds at all? > > > > Cheers and enjoy your gettogether > > > > > > Herman 28670 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 7:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Hi Howard Howard: I think that yours is a heroic and clever attempt to redeem > the notion. I find myself often straining in the same way to salvage an> idea from the Abhidhamma. Your approach is a pretty good one, saying, as I understand you, that the description given is really that of the pa~n~natti "nutriment B". That then leaves the rupa, the allegedly actually existent "nutiment A", to be a > condition for the former. The trouble is, as I see it, that there > is no evidence of such a scenario in the quoted material whatsoever, and moreover, "nutriment A" is a merely hypothesized but unobserved, hidden essence like the ether of modern times. k: Below are quotes of texts I got from Nina paccaya materials <> <> >Howard: There was a tendency in ancient civilizations (and somewhat still in modern times) to look for hidden "essences" or "potencies" that account for things. Frequently these were based on conventional notions. Bodily rupas hold together, so there must be a "life force" responsible. Organic masses are maintained and increase so there must be some "nutritive essence" responsible. There is (said to be) rebirth, so there must be a soul that is reincarnated. The body moves, so there must be an animator. The world exists and is maintained, so there must be a Creator/Maintainer. Light travels through empty space, so > there must be an ether. k: for that I surrender ;-) bc basically this is the logic of Abhidhamma. As you always said "I dont buy it", nonetheless this is Abhidhamma Ripley's show << Believe It or Not >> kind regards Ken O 28671 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 7:55am Subject: Re: characteristics - formulation: To Mike B And Ken O Dear Michael B and all How are you? Michael wrote: "I just want to say that I disagree with much of what you say." In my original post, I wrote: "So when you are ready to talk to him (Ken O) again, you should have done some homework in the correct of use of the terms "paramattha" and "sabhaava" in Abhidhamma and commentaries. Then, perhaps, Ken O would be more easily convinced of your points." Michael, I never expected you to agree with what I said. That is one reason that I asked you to do your homework before you are ready to talk to Ken O again. Perhaps, when you have done your homework in the correct use of the terms "paramattha" and "sabhaava", you might even come to agree with what I wrote. You never know! As our understanding of things also depends on conditions, when conditions change by means of learning more, your understanding of what I wrote may also change from disagreement to agreement. This, of course, depends on your willingness to study more. Dependent Origination everywhere! By the way, understanding is a paññaa cetasika and, therefore, a paramattha. As understanding is always in the process of being developed by conditions such as learning, observing, experimenting, here we have an example of a paramattha undergoing change and being conditioned. As you have been insisting on following the Buddha's teachings, I trust that you will also be consistent in that insistence in terms of developing your understanding of things by learning more and more - in this case, by getting correct information on the use of the terms "paramattha" and "sabhaava" in Abhidhamma and commentaries. What I am getting at here is that genuine critical statements should be made only by making efforts to understand properly the things we want to criticize. We need to first do justice to the things we want to find fault with. In your case, if you want to criticize commentaries, then you ought to understand their language properly. Without making efforts to understand the language of commentaries such as "paramattha" or "sabhaava", any of your criticisms would become meaningless and become the wrong speech (micchaavaacaa). By doing so, you are asserting yourself to be better than Aacariya Buddhaghosa and unknown ancient Buddhist ascetics represented by him. As such, your behavior is amount to showing off your conceit and disrespect before the people who have great respect for Aacariya Buddhaghosa and his standard commentaries. You also wrote: " But I don't think it would be profitable for both of us to start a discussion on this." Do not worry, Michael. I never have any intention of starting a discussion on this with you. If I had, I could have done so long time ago. The reason I wrote my post was that I thought the thread between you and Ken O reached the end. You also wrote: "Well, but there is sankhara in dependent origination, and paññati is a sankhara." You must be joking! Where did you get that information? In the formula "Avijjaa paccayaa sankhaaraa ...", sankhaaraa is another term for "cetanaa" which is a cetasika and, therefore, a paramattha. Sankhaara in the above formula roughly means activations or deliberate or intentional actions. In the five aggregates, sankhaarakhandhaa refers to cetasikas with cetanaa as the head (cetanaasiisena). That is why I keep telling you to do your homework in the use of the terms of paramatthas. Please do not forget to read Kathaavatthu to familiarize yourself with the correct use of the term "paramattha". Kathaavatthu is the work of Arahant Mahaa Moggliputtatissa based on the Buddha's initial outlines. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: Hello Suan, Thank you for your comments and I just want to say that I disagree with much of what you say. But I don't think it would be profitable for both of us to start a discussion on this. Only one point I want to mention. You wrote: "there is no paññatti dhamma ("concept") among the components of Dependent Origination." Well, but there is sankhara in dependent origination, and paññati is a sankhara. Metta Michael 28672 From: Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 3:13am Subject: A Semantic Analysis (Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics) Hi, Jon and Michael - In a message dated 1/4/04 3:57:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Michael: > Characteristics are subject to conditionality as well and therefore > cannot be intrinsic. In the conditioned world there is absolutely > nothing that is not subject to conditions, and if something is > subject to conditions it cannot exist by its own power. Words like > paramatha and sabhava do not apply in the conditioned world. > > Jon: > I do question your assumptions here. To say that characteristics are > subject to conditionality, in the same way as are the things to which > they pertain (if I have understood you correctly), seems to be > according to the characteristic the same status as the thing to which > the characteristic pertains. That doesn't seem right to me (that > would make the characteristic a thing too!). > > A characteristic exhibited by something is by definition a quality or > feature *of/pertaining to* the thing. It cannot be separate from, or > arise or exist independently of, the thing to which it pertains; in > this sense the characteristic is intrinsic to the thing it pertains > to. I would be very surprised if you could find a dictionary > definition that indicates otherwise. > > Moreover, things that are conditioned and impermanent exhibit > characteristics by which they can be known, just as something that > was unconditioned and permanent could do. Thus I do not see any > inconsistency between 'exhibiting a characteristic' and 'conditioned > nature'. The 2 are not in any sense mutually exclusive.. > =============================== I think that much of this discussion is merely semantic. Please look at the following: ___________________________________ Main Entry: in·trin·sic Pronunciation: in-'trin-zik, -'trin(t)-sik Function: adjective Etymology: Middle French intrinsèque internal, from Late Latin intrinsecus, from Latin, adverb, inwardly; akin to Latin intra within —more at INTRA- Date: 1642 1 a : belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing b : being or relating to a semiconductor in which the concentration of charge carriers is characteristic of the material itself instead of the content of any impurities it contains 2 a : originating or due to causes within a body, organ, or part b : originating and included wholly within an organ or part — compare EXTRINSIC 1b - in·trin·si·cal·ly /-zi-k(&-)lE, -si-/ adverb Pronunciation Key © 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated Merriam-Webster Privacy Policy ______________________________________________ In particular, please compare 1a and 2 (a & b). Definition 1a of 'intrinsic' is "belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing ." This makes an intrinsic characteristic of something merely the means/characteristic by which to distinguish it from something else. Certainly we can distinguish hardness from unpleasantness and from heat, for example. Thus, this sense of 'intrinsic' doesn't strike me as problematical. Definition 2 of 'intrinsic' oddly pertains to bodily organs - but I render it here more generally as the following: "originating or due to causes within a thing itself b : originating and included wholly within a thing itself . The sense that is emphasized in definition 2 is that of source of origin of a characteristic/condition rather than locus of residing. When two people use the expression 'intrinsic characteristic', but one of them in the sense of 1a and the other in the sense of 2, there will be confusion unless it is specified who means what. Speaking conventionally: The hardness of a table *is* a hardness OF that table; it resides in that table, and it is intrinsic to it in sense 1a.. However, the hardness of the table arises from the mind that created the table pa~n~natti to begin with, or, more conventionally, it arises from the materials that were put together to produce the table; the table and its hardness arose together from what is non-table, and, in that sense, sense 2 of 'intrinsic', the hardness is not intrinsic to the table. Now, why am I speaking about a conventional object, a table, in the previous paragraph? Because it becomes odd to talk about the distinguishing characteristic of a paramattha dhamma. The distinguishing characteristic/condition of hardness is hardness. The distinguishing characteristic/condition of pleasantness is pleasantness. Paramattha dhammas *are* characteristics/conditions. The nature of hardness is hardness. The nature of visual consciousness is visual consciousness. That is all there is to say. Relations hold among such things, of course, and these can be pointed out. There is that to say. Now, let us talk about the *existence* of a paramattha dhamma - a hardness, warmth of some degree felt in some part of the body, a sound, a sight, or concentration, say. Each of these dhammas is a characteristic/condition. Is it a characteristic that is intrinsic to itself in the sense of its locus being in itself? Well, yes, but that is a rather strange thing to say, because it is nothing *but* that characteristic/condition. It *is* intrinsic to itself in sense 1a, but tautologically so. On the other hand, it does *not* arise from itself! It arises in dependence on the coming together of a group of other conditions without which it would have no existence whatsoever. So it is not intrinsic to itself in sense 2. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28673 From: Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Thank you, Jon! With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/4/04 4:19:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > Regarding your query about the citta process, there is the following > entry in the Appendix to Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary': > > <<< > citta-víthi, > Citta vithi, as well as all terms for the various functions within > the processes of conseiousness, such as ávajjana-citta, > sampaticchana, santírana, votthapana, javana, tadárammana, bhavanga, > cuti: none of these terms is found in the Sutta Canon. except javana, > in Pts.M. Even in the Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana and > bhavanga are twice or thrice briefly mentioned. > > The stages, however, must have been more or less known. Cf. e.g > Patth: > "Cakkhu-viññánam tam sampayuttaká ca dhammá (= cetasiká) mano-dhátuyá > (performing the sampaticchana-function), tam sampayuttakánañ ca > dhammánam (cetasikánani) anantara-paccayena paccayo. Mano-dhátu ... > manoviññána-dhátuya (performing the santírana and votthapana > function).... Purimá purimá kusalá dhammá (javaná) pacchimánam > pacchimánam kusalánam dhammánam (javanacittánam) anantara-paccayena > paccayo... avyákatánam dhammánam (tadárammana- and > bhavanga-cittánam....)." > >>> > > I see it as a case of the commentaries making explicit what is > implicit in the suttas (which after all is the function of a > commentary). > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28674 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 8:23am Subject: Re: Theft of a flowers' scent - Htoo Hello Htoo, and all, Bhikkhu Bodhi in his notes to the Vanasamyutta (p.473) "An identical story, including the verses, is at Ja No. 392 (III. 307-10), with the Bodhisatta in the role of the bhikkhu. Spk: When she saw the bhikkhu sniff the lotus, the devataa thought: "Having received a meditation subject from the Buddha and entered the forest to meditate, this bhikkhu is instead meditating on the scent of flowers. If his craving for scent increases it will destroy his welfare. Let me draw near and reproach him." I have read Jataka 392 (III. 307-10) Bhisapuppha-Jaataka (E.W. Cowell 1897). "The lesson ended, the Master declared the Truths, and identified the Birth - at the end of the Truths, the Brother was established in the fruit of the First Path:- "At that time the goddess was Uppalavannaa, the ascetic was myself." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > I think the bhikkhu was still a worldling, the devata (female deva) > was concerned least his intoxication led to negligence. > Robk > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Christine and all, > > > > When I followed this thread, I only found the related reply at 8th > > reply by Robert K. > > > > Dear Robert, may I ask you here who was that Bhikkhu? He was not > an > > ordinary Bhikkhu, Wasn't he? Deva here was female Deva, I think. > > > > I am looking forward to hearing from you. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing 28675 From: shakti Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theft of a flowers' scent - to KenO Dear Ken, I'm happy to hear that you may join the group in Bangkok. I too am hoping to go and am trying to finalize plans. I usually stay at the Holiday Inn on Silom Road (across the river from the foundation) and pay around $45.00. This is a special rate that I get from a consolidator and would be happy to send you the contact if this interests you. Let me know. I probably won't arrive in Bangkok til the 27th or 28th. Hope to meet you there. Shakti Kenneth Ong wrote: Hi Christine Initally I have rejected the offers by RobK to go to Bkk. After a few thoughts, if the lodging cost is not too high, it could be a possibility. Could you kindly telling how much does one nite stay in Bkk in the hotel that the group plan to stay (in US or baht). Once I have the basic cost of the hotel, then it will be possible to know whether I can make this trip or not since the airfare is relatively cheap (about US$140) When does the discussion starts on 27 Jan (morning or afternoon) should I arrive on 26 Jan or 27 Jan. I remember it ends on 31 Jan. Is the group plans to stay a few more days for recreation or not. thanks and regards Ken O 28676 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 9:56am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation: To Mike B And Ken O Hello Suan, Suan: "Well, but there is sankhara in dependent origination, and paññati is a sankhara." You must be joking! Where did you get that information? In the formula "Avijjaa paccayaa sankhaaraa ...", sankhaaraa is another term for "cetanaa" which is a cetasika and, therefore, a paramattha. Sankhaara in the above formula roughly means activations or deliberate or intentional actions. In the five aggregates, sankhaarakhandhaa refers to cetasikas with cetanaa as the head (cetanaasiisena). That is why I keep telling you to do your homework in the use of the terms of paramatthas. Michael: Maybe you can help me with my homework and explain what is pannatti then. I remember in your previous post you said it is not part of dependent origination. What is it then? I would really apreciate. Suan: Please do not forget to read Kathaavatthu to familiarize yourself with the correct use of the term "paramattha". Kathaavatthu is the work of Arahant Mahaa Moggliputtatissa based on the Buddha's initial outlines Michael: I will try to get hold of a copy. But could you give me directions where in the book I can find relevant information to the understanding of paramatha/sabhava? It's a big book and it will be easier if I could have some directions. Suan: As such, your behavior is amount to showing off your conceit and disrespect before the people who have great respect for Aacariya Buddhaghosa and his standard commentaries. Michael: In the book 'Wings to Awakening' (Part III: The Basic Factors; F. Concentration and Discernment) Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote the following: "Some Theravadins insist that questioning the commentaries is a sign of disrespect for the tradition, but it seems to be a sign of greater disrespect for the Buddha -- or the compilers of the Canon -- to assume that he or they would have left out something absolutely essential to the practice." He is writing about the Jhanas but the same commentary could be made about paramatha/sabhava which, as you well know, do not appear in the suttas. So, between showing more respect to Buddhaghosa or the Buddha, I stay with the Buddha. Metta Michael _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 28677 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Larry > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Nina: "Why not use the Abhidhamma terms > straight?" > > > > Larry: Daily life, Nina, daily life. These terms are meaningless > > jargon if we can't relate them to daily life. > > Yes, but giving these terms our own meaning is not the way to relate > them to daily life ;-)) Larry: What is the way? > > Besides, not everything we study has a direct 'daily life' > counterpart. Sometimes the relationship will be difficult to see > (such as the rupa that is nutritive essence). Even such > often-mentioned cetasikas as phassa/contact and > ekagatta/concentration can only be appreciated at an intellectual > level. Part of the problem lies in the fact that our conventional > notions of these things is vastly different from the meaning of the > term as used in the teachings. This can make it difficult to > consider on its own merits what is found in the teachings. > > > I disagree with what you said > > about salt. Salt is a nutritional substance, an example of the 8 > > inseparables, produced by temperature. It is a mineral; not a > > plant. > > It depends if you are talking in purely conventional terms. For the > reasons just discussed, nutritional essence as 1 of the 8 > inseparables cannot be related the items on your dinner table in > particular. This may be confusing (exasperating, even), but careful > reflection helps keep the 2 frames of reference from becoming > confused. > > Jon Larry: We seem to be forgetting that these rupas are inseparable. Where else would we find them if not on the dinner table and as parts of our body and in the world (plants etc.)? They arise apart from any consciousness that may cognize them, even the consciousness produced ones (I think?). That I, and perhaps you, don't have the wisdom to directly experience nutritional essence is a different matter all together. We can still recognize the 8 inseparables in daily life and be mindful of them to the limit of our abilities. Larry 28678 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the study of Abhidhamma and rupas. Dear Larry and Howard, op 02-01-2004 00:52 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: L quotes: > Nina: "Why not use the Abhidhamma terms straight?" > Larry: Daily life, Nina, daily life. N: This is the context of what I said: L: These terms are meaningless jargon > if we can't relate them to daily life. N: That is what I am trying to do all the time, but what I find it so very difficult, Larry. People keep on thinking that all these rupas are conventional terms, and how to bring home that they are realities? I think daily life without the Abhidhamma is so chaotic. The Abhidhamma is very precise, teaches in detail about nama and rupa. For most people the teaching about cittas is more acceptable than the teaching about rupas. With rupas it may seem that there is a conflict between science and the teaching of the Abhidhamma, they may not see that there *is no conflict*. People can pursue their interests in the field of science, but at the same time develop understanding of nama and rupa. Misunderstandings arise if one confuses conventional notions with paramattha dhammas, and especially, if one does not see the goal of the Dhamma: detachment. In fact, notions of minerals, chemistry etc. will not lead to the end of dukkha. Seeing both nama and rupa as they are will lead to the end of dukkha. We are not only deluded about nama but also about rupa. We should not neglect rupa. Howard had a good question, but now I give only part: Chemists are not interested at detachment, Howard. To answer this and other questions about notions of science and Abhidhamma, let us go to the Mahaarahulovaada sutta and the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint I quoted many times, but to which we should frequently return. The Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint teaches about rupas as elements. Not elements in the sense of chemistry, but as realities devoid of self. We should never forget the difference. Thus, no conflict with science, but only through the Abhidhamma we learn the meaning of element as non-self. There are inward rupas (ajjhatta), of the body, and outward rupas (bahiddhaa), of what we call nature or dead matter. We should also consider outward rupas, that is beneficial for detachment. Let us leave aside for a moment the question of phenomenology. We can also consider rupas as originating from four factors. Those of the body originate from four factors. Those which are not of the body:when it is not from kamma, citta, nutrition, from what else? From the Great Element of Fire or heat. Sariputta did not speak about concepts, he illustrated with calamities of nature rupas outside, those that are not of the body. They are to be reckoned with. If we look at the colour of our body, it can be produced by the four factors, but we cannot catch such differences now. If we look outside, there is colour, produced only by the element of heat. That is the difference. We find nama and rupa very important, but we should learn to see them as mere elements, mere nothings. The suttas and also commentaries use figurative language to explain what is really there (for a moment!): paramattha dhammas. We have to go back many centuries to try to understand their way of explaining. But it is worth while! Also Dhammasangani uses many daily examples, such as flavours of different roots, roots we do not know about today. Or sounds of musical instruments that many people may not know about today. The root of the problem is this: study of Abhidhamma should go hand in hand with satipatthana, otherwise we get the wrong grasp (the snake really bites), lost in speculations. If there is a beginning of awareness of what appears, be it visible object, or cold, without naming, it will gradually change our outlook, also concerning the rupas which are still unobserved. Why? Because we learn to go straight to reality, past all those concepts and names which are just helping to denote reality. Even a very poor beginning of awareness, interspersed with countless moments of thinking *about* dhammas, makes all the difference. Repeat: even though many rupas *seem* to be concepts (pannattis, different from realities, in the Abhidhammic sense), we learn to understand that they are real. The difference between reality and concept will become clearer. The same goes for cittas. We gain great confidence when we learn for example, that the real cause of dosa is within us, not the other people, that the cause is clinging to self, expectations, but also, we gain more confidence in what the abhidhamma teaches about (still) unobserved cittas (bhavanga), about their ephemeral nature, about the cittas arising in processes. About citta nyama, a certain fixed order of them, and not one citta lasting longer than another one. Thus, we shall be more inclined to keep on studying what is taught by the Theravada tradition, inspite of matters we do not yet grasp. Now there are too many subjects at a time, and I want to keep to one subject, otherwise the study cannot be thorough enough. Let us follow Larry's thread. Nutrition comes later, and I like to take up the dialogue with you again, paying attention to the Sutta on Right Understanding, probing into it whether the Buddha meant a concept or not when he said physical sustenance (appropriate after Victor's post). I start preparations for Bgk and will have less time. Moreover, Lodewijk said that he will throw my computer out of the window. Nina. 28679 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 0:13pm Subject: rupas and scientifical notions. Dear Larry, Cheerio, back again with your good questions. L:I disagree with what you said > about salt. Salt is a nutritional substance, an example of the 8 > inseparables, produced by temperature. It is a mineral; not a plant. N: Let us look at the list of rupas in the Dhammasangani: it is not there. It is again a conventional term for a conglomeration of different units of rupas. There is no salt classified as one of the inseparables (avinibhoga rupas). Yes, such rupas are not of the body, outward. Produced by the element of heat. L: Salt is a nutritional substance, It is a mineral; not a plant. N:Agreed, no conflict at all. L: I'm not very happy with plants not being considered to be alive. N: I do not want to see you unhappy. I care a lot about nature and plant life. We are members of the World Nature Foundation and also of the Dutch Association for the Protection of Nature (a million members), and also of two regional associations for the protection of nature. Plant life etc. is again a conventional notion, but this does not mean we do not care! Let us look at the Tiika: The text has dead matter, mata rupa. Let us not fall over this. There is a difference between what is produced by kamma and what is not. We call something dead matter, but the meaning is: not produced by kamma. We should not fall over this term. Plants do not have cittas, they originate from heat. We give them earth and water, and also these are conglomerations of rupas produced by heat. We take care of plants (we love them), but at the same time we learn what is really there: different rupas that can be experienced through the sense-doors. And this will eventually lead to the end of dukkha. Nina. 28680 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 0:13pm Subject: author's rights, etc. Dear Ken Ong, I answer you on dsg, because we need help from our good friends here. I appreciate your enthusiasm and all your help to explain Abhidhamma. You greatly encourage me too by your example. I like your good cheer when in conversation with others. This is contaminating! K:Was you or Jon who asked for all these anapanasati posts into one single document and I have save them all in one document. N: Thanks, but I could not open it, I have an iMac. I have the whole doc myself, but never sent it to Zolag web. Reason: I meant it as very informal for discussion, but, since I quote from Nanamoli's book, I do not know what is allowed. Rob K, Rob M and others know about percentages allowed as quotes, but I do not know. Also: pali accents, these only come out correctly if the whole thing goes to Zolag Web first. If you use this just for friends I do not think there are problems. K: I admire you and your publisher spirit of giving pple to download free ebook. This is very rare but not even B Bodhi does not do that. I also like to ask you whether all your materials in this file copyrighted by you. N: I do not care about copy rights, no problem, only I do not want people to change my texts, that is all. K: It is very difficult to find commentaries in English hence now I am collecting as many as possible. If in future (maybe years later) I print them for free distribution or put on my website, but do this action infringe on your copyright. N: Not at all. In general: what is on Zolag or Rob K's web: let people use it and download it as they like. It is there free for everybody. We all share the Dhamma, nobody's property. K: With regards to Bkk trip, could I know how much a respectable hotel (near your foundation) cost a night to stay. Or where are the rest of the gang going to stay and how much it cost. If the cost is acceptable to my budget, I may made a trip to Bkk. N: It is better to ask Jaran, but he often travels for his work. There is a spare room at the foundation, maybe someone can help you. Ken, I just wrote to our friend Betty about this, awaiting her answer on dsg. Also: Azita is the greatest in finding good low budget hotels. Her accumulation is fewness of wishes and this comes naturally with her. Admirable. I conclude with a quote from your advice to Howard about jhana I find precious also for myself: I hope you can make it, with great appreciation for all your efforts, Nina. 28681 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Tiika Vis. 59, Life faculty Tiika Vis. 59, Life faculty Vis. 59: 12. The life faculty has the characteristic of maintaining conascent kinds of matter. Its function is to make them occur. It is manifested in the establishing of their presence. Its proximate cause is primary elements that are to be sustained. And although it has the capacity consisting in the characteristic of maintaining, etc., yet it only maintains conascent kinds of matter at the moment of presence, as water does lotuses and so on. Though states (dhamma) arise due to their own conditions, it maintains them, as a wet-nurse does a prince. And it occurs itself only through its connexion with the states that occur, like a pilot; it does not cause occurrence after dissolution, because of its own absence and that of what has to be made to occur. It does not prolong presence at the moment of dissolution because it is itself dissolving, like the flame of a lamp when the wick and the oil are getting used up. But it must not be regarded as destitute of power to maintain, make occur, and make present, because it does accomplish each of these functions at the moment stated (cf. Dhs. 635). 59. sahajaruupaanupaalanalakkha.na.m jiivitindriya.m, tesa.m pavattanarasa.m, tesa~n~neva .thapanapaccupa.t.thaana.m, yaapayitabbabhuutapada.t.thaana.m. santepi ca anupaalanalakkha.naadimhi vidhaane atthikkha.neyeva ta.m sahajaruupaani anupaaleti udaka.m viya uppalaadiini. yathaasaka.m paccayuppannepi ca dhamme paaleti dhaati viya kumaara.m. saya.m pavattitadhammasambandheneva ca pavattati niyaamako viya. na bha"ngato uddha.m pavattati, attano ca pavattayitabbaana~nca abhaavaa. na bha"ngakkha.ne.thapeti, saya.m bhijjamaanattaa. khiiyamaano viya va.t.tisneho diipasikha.m. na ca anupaalanapavattana.t.thapanaanubhaavavirahita.m, yathaavuttakkha.ne tassa tassa saadhanatoti da.t.thabba.m. Tiika: words: anupaalati: to maintain pavattati: to occur, yaapati: to keep going yaapeti: to support thapeti: to establish, maintain uppala (n): lotus .thiti: establishment, persistence sabbakaala.m: always 439. Sahajaruupaanupaalanalakkha.nanti attanaa sahajaataruupaana.m anupaalanalakkha.na.m. As to the expression, the characteristic of maintaining conascent kinds of matter, this means the characteristic of maintaining as if it were its own the conascent materiality. .....( follows footnote 25.) Tesanti sahajaruupaana.m. As to the expression (its function is causing the occurrence) , namely, of the conascent materiality. Pavattana.m yaapana.m. thapana.m .thitihetutaa. By causing them to occur, to support them and establish them. By being the cause of their establishment. Attanaa anupaalanavasena yaapetabbaani pavattetabbaani bhuutaani etassa pada.t.thaananti The primary elements that are to be supported and made to occur because it maintains them as if they were its own, are its proximate cause, yaapayitabbabhuutapada.t.thaana.m. and thus, its proximate cause is primary elements that are to be sustained. Anupaalanalakkha.naadimhiiti aadi-saddena pavattanarasaadimeva sa"nga.nhaati. As to the expression, (the capacity consisting) in the characteristic of maintaining and so on, with the words, , he combines (its characteristic) together with its function of making them occur. Atthikkha.neyevaati anupaaletabbaana.m atthikkha.neyeva. As to the words, only at the moment of presence, this means, only at the moment of presence of the material phenomena that are to be maintained. Asati anupaaletabbe uppalaadimhi ki.m udaka.m anupaaleyya. If there is no lotus that has to be protected, what would the water protect? * Yadi kammajaana.m .thitihetumantarena .thiti na hoti, jiivitindriyassa ko .thitihetuuti aaha ³sayan²ti-aadi. If there is nothing that causes the persistence of the kamma-born materiality meanwhile, who would cause the persistence of the life-faculty, and thus he said, ³it occurs itself and so on (only through its connexion with the states that occur)². Yadi kammajaana.m .thaana.m jiivitindriyapa.tibaddha.m, If the status of the kamma-born materiality is dependent on the life-faculty, atha kasmaa sabbakaala.m na .thapetiiti aaha ³na bha"ngato²ti-aadi. then how could it at all times cause their subsistance and thus, he said, (it does not cause occurence) after the moment of dissolution. Tassa tassa anupaalanaadikassa saadhanato. Because accomplishes each of these functions of maintaining, and so on **. Ta.m saadhana~nca jiivamaanataavisesassa paccayabhaavato. And the accomplishment is being the condition for distinguishing what is living. English: As to the expression, the characteristic of maintaining conascent kinds of matter, this means the characteristic of maintaining as if it were its own the conascent materiality. .....( follows footnote 25.) As to the expression (its function is causing the occurrence) , namely, of the conascent materiality. By causing them to occur, to support them and establish them. By being the cause of their establishment. The primary elements that are to be supported and made to occur because it maintains them as if they were its own, are its proximate cause, and thus, its proximate cause is primary elements that are to be sustained. As to the expression, (the capacity consisting) in the characteristic of maintaining and so on, with the words, , he combines (its characteristic) together with its function of making them occur. As to the words, only at the moment of presence, this means, only at the moment of presence of the material phenomena that are to be maintained. If there is no lotus that has to be protected, what would the water protect? * If there is nothing that causes the persistence of the kamma-born materiality meanwhile, who would cause the persistence of the life-faculty, and thus he said, ³it occurs itself and so on (only through its connexion with the states that occur)². If the status of the kamma-born materiality is dependent on the life-faculty, then how could it at all times cause their subsistance and thus, he said, (it does not cause occurence) after the moment of dissolution. Because accomplishes each of these functions of maintaining, and so on **. And the accomplishment is being the condition for distinguishing what is living. ________ * Thus, both the kamma-born materiality and life-faculty have to be present. **: As said in the Vis. passage: ***** Nina. 28682 From: Benjamin Jerome Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 1:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tanha and intention Jonothan Abbott wrote: >Satipatthana is not something to be 'done', but then that > is true of other kusala mindstates too (in fact it's true of any > mindstate). > > ...it's not a matter of 'paying attention', since that implies something 'to > be done', and also a conscious selection of the (perceived) presently > occurring object, whereas in fact that object has fallen away long > before it can be attended to. > I don't understand. Why is "doing" a problem? Metta, Ben 28683 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 2:53pm Subject: Re: Austerity Dear Robert, and all, Part of this verse spoken by Mara sounds just like what the Buddha would teach. I can understand that we should not be 'settled on form,delighting in the world of devas', but Austerity is a name for restraint, the ascetic practices (dhutaanga) that burn up the defilements. In the Devatasamyutta 58 (8) The Deviant Path, "Austerity and the holy life - That is the bath without water." i.e. 'internal bath' of the mind as opposed to the brahmin 'washing away of sins' with water. Scrupulousness in the Oxford dictionary is 'being very conscientous, painstakingly careful and thorough, strictly honest or honourable'. Solitude is one of the three kinds is bodily detachment - (kaya-viveka) abiding in solitude free from alluring sensuous objects. Can't see anything wrong with these, it DOES sound as if, in this respect, 'these mortals instruct rightly in regard to the other world.' metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear group, > These verses were spoken by Mara > "those engaged in austerity and scrupulousness, > those protecting their solitude, and those settled on form, > delighting in the world of devas: > Indeed these mortals instruct rightly in regard to the other world." > > Bodhi page 162 Sagathavagga Devaputtasamyuatta 370 > Robk 28684 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 3:06pm Subject: Re: Austerity Dear Christine, In this verse, I'd take the first line to refer to those who see rules and rituals as liberating (silabbataparamasa -- like the Pharisees in Jesus' eyes, to use another Christian analogy!). Also, "protecting solitude" is quite distinct from "abiding in solitude." Oh, that voice of Mara is alluring! Dan P.S. Thanks for the interesting sutta, Rob. > Part of this verse spoken by Mara sounds just like what the Buddha > would teach. I can understand that we should not be 'settled on > form,delighting in the world of devas', but Austerity is a name for > restraint, the ascetic practices (dhutaanga) that burn up the > defilements. In the Devatasamyutta 58 (8) The Deviant > Path, "Austerity and the holy life - That is the bath without water." > i.e. 'internal bath' of the mind as opposed to the brahmin 'washing > away of sins' with water. Scrupulousness in the Oxford dictionary > is 'being very conscientous, painstakingly careful and thorough, > strictly honest or honourable'. Solitude is one of the three kinds is > bodily detachment - (kaya-viveka) abiding in solitude free from > alluring sensuous objects. Can't see anything wrong with these, it > DOES sound as if, in this respect, 'these mortals instruct rightly in > regard to the other world.' > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear group, > > These verses were spoken by Mara > > "those engaged in austerity and scrupulousness, > > those protecting their solitude, and those settled on form, > > delighting in the world of devas: > > Indeed these mortals instruct rightly in regard to the other world." > > > > Bodhi page 162 Sagathavagga Devaputtasamyuatta 370 > > Robk 28685 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 4:41pm Subject: Re: Austerity Hi Rob K, Let me quote the passage regarding the Blessed One's reply to the verses spoken by Mara the Evil One: Then the Blessed One, having understood, "This is Mara the Evil One," replied to Mara the Evil One in verse: "Whatever forms exist here or beyond, And those of luminous beauty in the sky, All these, indeed, you praise, Namuci, Like bait thrown out for catching fish." * Peace, Victor *Bhikkhu Bodhi (trans.), The Connected Discourses of the Buddha : a new translation of the Samyutta Nikaya, p. 163 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear group, > These verses were spoken by Mara > "those engaged in austerity and scrupulousness, > those protecting their solitude, and those settled on form, > delighting in the world of devas: > Indeed these mortals instruct rightly in regard to the other world." > > Bodhi page 162 Sagathavagga Devaputtasamyuatta 370 > Robk 28686 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 4:52pm Subject: Re: Austerity - sílabbata-parámása Hello Dan, and all, Ahh, sílabbata-parámása, again! 'clinging to mere rules and ritual'. Would you say that the five moral rules (pa~nca-sila) are expected to be followed by all virtuous Buddhist lay-persons to the best of their ability - not as commandments, but as training rules? Aren't the Precepts, together with Dana, the cornerstone of Sila for the beginner in Buddhism? Simply because one believes the Buddha gave them as a minimum standard to adhere to, and sees them as a beacon to guide one through the temptations of the world, doesn't mean there is 'clinging to mere rules and ritual'. I have noticed in previous discussions of Precepts that as soon as a person mentions that the Precepts are important and keeping them is desirable, someone always mentions Silabbata-paramasa. There is a difference. I see and hear enough of ignorant human nature everyday to know the bottomless depths of unwholesomeness. Humans are not naturally moral, kind or compassionate if it interferes with their own desires, or even if it merely takes effort. Wholesome behaviour isn't going to happen by some sort of osmosis. It is an actual training and the effort is in knowing the Precepts and then engaging in the act of abstaining from breaking them when the desire and the opportunity arises. There should surely be encouragement of each other to keep the precepts, rather than, as it sometimes seems, the de-valuing implication that they are a part of judgmental dogmatic fundamentalism, or superstition. To Jivaka (On Being a Lay Follower) "As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Venerable sir, to what extent is one a lay follower?" "Jivaka, when one has gone to the Buddha for refuge, has gone to the Dhamma for refuge, and has gone to the Sangha for refuge, then to that extent is one a lay follower." "And to what extent, venerable sir, is one a virtuous lay follower?" "Jivaka, when one abstains from taking life, from stealing, from sexual misconduct, from lying, and from fermented & distilled drinks that lead to heedlessness, then to that extent is one a virtuous lay follower." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-026.html Nyanatiloka gives the definition of Silabbata-paraamaasa as: "sílabbata-parámása and -upádána: 'attachment (or clinging) to mere rules and ritual', is the 3rd of the 10 fetters (samyojana, q.v.), and one of the 4 kinds of clinging (upádána, q.v.). It disappears on attaining to Stream-entry (sotápatti)." s. upádána is "What is the clinging to mere rules and ritual? The holding firmly to the view that through mere rules and ritual one may reach purification: this is called the clinging to mere rules and ritual." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Christine, > In this verse, I'd take the first line to refer to those who see > rules and rituals as liberating (silabbataparamasa -- like the > Pharisees in Jesus' eyes, to use another Christian analogy!). > > Also, "protecting solitude" is quite distinct from "abiding in > solitude." > > Oh, that voice of Mara is alluring! > > Dan > > P.S. Thanks for the interesting sutta, Rob. 28687 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 5:14pm Subject: Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [James] Hi Dan and All, Today something interesting happened in my class that I want to share. We were discussing the phrase "worldly strivings" in the poem "The World Is Too Much With Us" by Wordsworth. Since English is not these students's first language, I have to use various ways to explain the meanings of words. After explaining `worldly strivings' I gave the students some examples ( i.e. working for money, buying a house, car, getting married, having kids, etc.) then I asked the class to give me some examples of non-worldly strivings to see if they understood. Students gave examples like praying, enjoying nature, etc. Then one female student said "meditation", I agreed and continued the discussion when one of the male students interrupted, "That doesn't do anything. That doesn't work." Then the two students started to get into a rather heated exchange about it (DSG flashback ;-)). I was amazed because neither of these students practice meditation, they are both Islamic, but they both had very strong views on the subject and were each convinced that they were right. To solve the dispute they asked my opinion about it. I told them that yes I believe in the value of meditation and that I practice it. That pleased the female student and displeased the male student but it ended the discussion. To these students, the teacher is always right!! ;-)) This reminded me that people form opinions about meditation even if they have never done it. Actually, before I began to practice, I thought the whole idea was ridiculous. Dan, have you practiced meditation? If so, did you have a qualified teacher? Did you practice the methods of Vipassana as taught by Goenka or the other teachers you mentioned? Some people practice but then give up because it is too difficult and they don't see immediate results. Some people can't stay awake. Some people only do it sporadically and therefore don't see great results (I tend to fall too often into this category). But, it can be done. As the Buddha said, "They concentrate even what is hard to concentrate." Again, I don't agree with your definition of path. Your prose is quite beautiful, compelling, well constructed and articulate, but I don't agree with your message. The Buddha described the path as good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end. This obviously suggests a progression. To you path is either on/off, path/no path; and the only ones who would be on are arahants who have destroyed the three poisons, the rest of us are off. To you there is no beginning, middle, or end. Hmmm…why bother? The goal of meditation is to destroy the three poisons lobha/dosa/moha (see, I can use Pali too! ;-)) they don't have to be completely destroyed before one begins the practice. Now, about the sutta quote: MN 21: "Bhikkhus, even if bandits were to sever you savagely limb by limb with a two-handed saw, he who gave rise to a mind of hate towards them would not be carrying out my teachings." This is a metaphor that is not to be taken literally and contains a touch of hyperbole for a specific purpose. If you take this statement literally that would mean that the only way to follow the Buddha's teachings would be if bandits sawed your limbs off and you didn't feel any hate toward them. Gosh, I don't think membership in that sangha would be on the rise! ;-) And there would be a lot of crippled bhikkhus crawling around. That is not what the Buddha intended. They Buddha simply wanted to emphasize that hate and anger is not justifiable for any reason. So, did that mean that all of the monks in his sangha met this criteria? Probably not or it would have been an initiation procedure. Talk about hazing! ;-) (Okay, I will stop with the jokes.) My main point is that this statement is not to be taken literally and should not form your entire impression of the Buddha's path. I will wait for your later post. Glad my `sour' comment didn't scare you off. Metta, James 28688 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 5:47pm Subject: Re: Austerity - sílabbata-parámása C: "I have noticed in previous discussions of Precepts that as soon as a person mentions that the Precepts are important and keeping them is desirable, someone always mentions Silabbata-paramasa." ... Ahh... But when that person is Mara, and he is speaking in praise of the person's adherence to the rites and rituals, could it be other than Silabbataparamasa? Dan 28689 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 7:43pm Subject: Re: The present moment Hi Jon, Always happy to expound and expand, as long as my head stays about the same size :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Herman > Of course, one always comes back to the vital question of what I will > call the application, that is to say, in terms of your post here, How > does there come to be 'a glimpse the present in terms of itself'? > How does one come to be 'free of intention'? > I understand the following to be so. Seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting, thinking are all known through their changing or absence. By closing the eyelid, seeing is established as different to all the other things that could be happening. By turning the head, the change in hearing establishes hearing as different to all the other things. Touching hands is different to hands not touching, and so touching is established. And so on, and so on. The six senses come to be known by their negation. Negation is action. The senses come to be known through action. How does one come to know intention? By non-intention. Easier said then done. For me, the limpet state of attachment to the senses that is the waking state (which is the foundation for the conducting of the affairs of daily life) totally prevents even a dim realising that the waking state is created by intention towards it. Happily, all intention is followed by action, and action is easier to apprehend. When one ceases the gross movements of the body, the interaction with other bodies, and prevents the senses from feeding themselves, one becomes aware of a flood of intention to act. By a continuation of the regime of inactivity, the flood becomes a stream becomes a trickle. By extrapolation, I imagine the trickle will become a drip etc etc. When intention towards "the present moment", which has actually been called into existence by that very intention, dries up, the opportunity arises to experience the present moment in terms of itself. I'm out of time, sorry, gotta do some gross body movements on someone else's computer and interact with their body. All the best Herman > In your follow-up post to Howard, you offer the following words of > inspiration from Samyutta Nikaya I.10 Arañña Sutta: > > <<< > Standing to one side, a devata addressed the Blessed One with a > verse: > Living in the wilderness, > staying peaceful, remaining chaste, > eating just one meal a day: > why are their faces > so bright & serene? > > [The Buddha:] > They don't sorrow over the past, > don't long for the future. > They survive on the present. > That's why their faces > are bright & serene. > From longing for the future, > from sorrowing over the past, > fools wither away > like a green reed cut down. > >>> > > Inspiring words, I agree. But my earlier question then becomes, How > does there come to be no sorrowing over the past, no longing for the > future, just surviving on the present? > > I know you will have some thoughts on this, and I look forward to > hearing them ;-)). > > Many thanks for the New Year wishes in your other post. And the best > to you, too. > > Jon > > --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi everyone, (that > includes me) > > > > There are two types of present moment. > > > > One is the PRESENT as experienced in terms of the PAST. This > > present > > is not a given, but is constructed entirely on intention. Intention > > is based in the past to maintain it in the future. It is always > > based on self-view. The purpose of this type of present moment is > > indeed to maintain in the future the self-view that lies at it's > > origin. This type of present moment is always accompanied by > > conflict and anxiety, because it requires much effort to maintain > > the illusion of the reality of what is not real. When the conflict > > and anxiety become greater than the craving for the next moment > > with > > self view, the opportunity has arisen to not intend a future moment > > based on the past, and thus obtain a glimpse of the > > > > Present in terms of itself. This moment is given, unchangeable, > > timeless. It has no content. It is free of anxiety and conflict. > > > > This moment is not intended, but is there when there is no > > intention. > > > > The Buddha praised a lifestyle in which it was possible to become > > free of intention. The only consequence that follows from ignoring > > his recommendations is the continuation of the past-future life > > that > > is craved for. Anxiety and conflict and lip service to the Triple > > Gem can go on forever. > > > 28690 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 9:47pm Subject: Re: Theft of a flowers' scent- Herman Hi Azita, Good to hear from you. I'd reckon you'd have a tale or two from your younger days. Vicki and I spent an excellent week in Cairns at the beginning of November. We'd move there tomorrow if we could work up there without wearing clothes :-). We were so unwound, it wasn't funny ($55 a night for the two of us in a self-contained unit at Holloways Beach. The bed was reeeaaaalll high :-)). All the enjoyment bit us on the bum when we got back to the reality of Bathurst (6 degrees when we drove back in at night). I was full on depressed for two weeks. Still, I'd do it all again in a flash. Perhaps next time we could meet. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > Dear Herman, > I thought your joke was quite clever. Esp. so given that one > of the 10 precepts is to refrain from sleeping on high and luxurious > beds. > IMO the number of stars relate to how polite one has to be. > Coming from the backblocks of Down Under - a sheep shearers daughter - > I feel a tad uncomfortable in anything over 3 stars!!! > However, I am a smell thief, often stopping to smell the > gardenias which grow outside the city library. I have stopped > picking them though. > > patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. > > 28691 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [James] Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Oh, sorry; I guess I jumped the gun a little bit. .... Oh, that was a mild one from you too. It's a very good discussion;-) If you ever have a rainy holiday in Cairo, you might like to trace Dan’s posts from the start - he’s our poster boy for Reform;-);-) Here is a taste of classic Dan that I can find quickly: Dan on meditation: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/7753 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13149 If you ever think for a moment that Dan gave others of us an easier time, check out his posts and the following thread on: Discouraging 1.1 series, starting in May 2001, I think. Oh, shudder...:-/ Light Relief: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8673 Metta, Sarah ===== 28692 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jan 4, 2004 10:14pm Subject: Two to tango (was Re: Contraception and the First Precept) Hello Herman, and All, Herman: I've been spending a bit of time on this one :-) C: Oh, no! Chris quivers in terror :-) I have a tough enough time when you just do a stream of consciousness post, Herman. :-) ========================= Christine: > [To deliberately kill a living being (i.e. to complete an unwholesome > course of action - akusala kamma patha) five constituent factors must > be fulfilled. > There must be: > - A living being > - Knowledge that there is a living being > - Desire to kill > - Effort to kill > - Consequential death] ========================== Herman: I wonder how it can be known with any firm certainty that a state of affairs is attributable entirely to desire, intention and effort to bring that state of affairs about. Christine: Glad you asked this Herman (really!). (What is it that 'knows'? I always wanted to ask someone that. :)) - it made me check some texts. I looked in Narada's 'A Manual of Buddhism' p.99, and the wording is slightly different. He states: "The following five conditions are necessary to complete this evil of killing:- i a being ii consciousness that it is a being, iii intention of killing iv effort, and, v consequent death His wording seems a little clearer, don't you think? Puts 'intention' in instead of 'desire'. I don't think anyone claims that there aren't other 'conditions' occuring all the time and impacting on the incident. Many, many conditions - but intention (kamma) initiates the action. ======================== Herman: I'm watching some cricket at the moment, and I'm always amused by the commentators exclaiming "What a great ball" or "What a great shot" or "What a great catch" as though it was all due to the intention, desire and effort of the player in focus, and not to the contribitory effort or negligence of the other players involved. Christine: Well, clearly, it wasn't due to the great form of The Australian Captain.:-) ============================== Herman: Dukkha is a mark of all conditioned phenomena, precisely because desire, intention and effort to bring an exact state of affairs about is never guaranteed of that result. Christine: Mmmm ... but even it it did, the dukkha is also in the 'not lastingness' and 'uncontrollability' of anything - relationships, things, life, experiences. ============================== Herman: I may repeatedly swing a piece of 4 by 2 at an assailant, fully desiring, intending and efforting to kill her, but what the consequences of all that are have very much to do with how well my intended victim ducks and weaves. Never mind the medical neglicence that may finish her off if she is unfortunate enough to require attention from an expert. (I am certainly not referring to allied health and nursing here Hi Azita :-) Christine: There have been instances of culpability in all professions. No-one you know, of course.:-) My profession doesn't react too well to 'victim blaming', though. And the 'victim's' vipaka is another thing I wrestle with ... Herman: It is in the thinking and rethinking that the story of "what I have done" is produced, me thinks. Christine: I agree - but 'the story' as I've painfully begun to learn on dsg, isn't reality. Nevertheless, without the intention to kill this incident wouldn't have even begun, so couldn't have ended in the way it did. I note the term 'consequent' death is used by Narada. So, irrespective of whether the person died on the first blow - or two weeks later from an injury induced blood-clot - it is a consequence of the 'intention' to kill. And the Buddha's definition of kamma was 'intentional (volitional) action'. And, if we are talking about kamma/vipaka, I don't think it has anything to do with judging oneself. It appears to roll on regardless of our own excuses, justifications, and boasting. ============================ Herman: Wouldn't it be a form of pride to claim a state of affairs as being entirely the product of one's own desire, intention and effort? Christine: Maybe stupidity? - if you deliberately killed someone, would you go around claiming you did? :-) Probably more like delusion/ignorance , I would think. But say it happened in a 'legitimate' way, if you were a soldier, it might be conceit. But having an opinion after the fact doesn't affect the results of kamma, does it? ============================ All the best Herman =========================== and to you Metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" 28693 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [James] Hi Dan, James & All in the SN study corner, --- "Dan D." wrote: > J: > SN II, 6(6) "Kamada" > D:> --> Interesting sutta! I like it. The basic message I get is that the > path is very difficult to walk, but that it is possible. > > The last stanza contains a few colorful lines (but are a little > confusing nonetheless): > J:> > "Though the path is impassable and uneven, > > The noble ones walk it, Kamada. > > The ignoble ones fall down head first, > > Right there on the uneven path, > > But the path of the noble ones is even, > > For the noble are even amidst the uneven." > D:> Could it be that the "uneven path" is the "wrong path" that the > ignoble ones tread, while the "even path" is the "Right path" that > the noble ones tread? The part of the commentary you cite doesn't > comment on that. .... I don’t have access to any more of the commentary than the part James quoted from BB either. (I’d be grateful if Nina or anyone else were able to assist further in this regard). Just a few more speculations of my own here. Before the first stage of enlightenment (sotapatti magga), the path is uneven in the sense that wrong views can lead one astray at any time in between moments of satipatthana. For the noble ones, even though there is akusala arising (unless an arahant), no more wrong view and no more falling back or down. Max, 7 lives. .... D:>But the first two lines: "Though the path is > impassable and uneven, > The noble ones walk it, Kamada" are a riddle. The commentary seems to > take the word "path" in the conventional, JamesHowardsian sense > of "sitting in a corner trying to follow Mahasi's instructions > is 'the path' even when there is no arising of satipatthana or even > of kusala": .... Hmmm. You might be going a bit far there;-) Although there are many ‘impediments’ and falls before sotapatti magga in between the arising of satipatthana, the ariyans have overcome these. .... D:>"Although the noble path is neither impassable nor uneven > (duggamo visamo) this is said because there are many impediments in > the preliminary portion of the path." Are there 'impediments' in the > Right path? Hmmm... .... Different moments. In between moments of satipatthana. .... D:>There are the anusaya which are bound to arise > with great frequency and knock us quickly off the path as long as our > path-walking is still in the preliminary portion of the path. Could > this be what 'impediments' means here? Or could this "uneven path" be > referring to the ignoble's mistaken view of the path (or view of the > Wrong path) because "the path of the noble ones is even"? It reads > like a koan -- I like it. .... Yes, I take it to be referring to wrong views. I’m also looking at the lines before: “they concentrate* even what is hard to concentrate, [O Kaamada, “ said the Blessed One] “Who delight in calming the faculties. Having cut through the net of Death, The noble ones, O Kaamada go their way.” *samadaahanti: see dict entry- Samadahati (p. 684) [san+adahati1] to put together S I.169. jotin s. to kindle a fire Vin IV.115; cittan s. to compose the mind, concentrate M I.116; .....pp. samahita. ***** In the following sutta, SN2:7 Pa~ncaalaca.n.da, we read: “Even in the midst of confinement* they find it, [O Pa~ncaalaca.n.da,” said the Blessed One,] “The Dhamma for the attainment of Nibbaana- Those who have acquired mindfulness, Those perfectly well concentrated.”** *confinement (sambaadha) referring to confinement by the five hindrances. **BB’s n152 - “The ‘Dhamma for the attainment of Nibbana’ (dhamma.m nibbaanapattiyaa) is presumably the Noble Eightfold Path. Spk-p.t: ....The Buddha’s reply is intended to show that the first form-sphere jhana is a mere fragment of the infinite and immeasurable qualities of a Buddha. By mindfulness (sati) he refers to the mindfulness of insight and of the noble path. Well concentrated (susamaahita) signifies both mundane and supramundane concentration.” In other words, as I understand it, with awareness & insight(sati), the mind(citta) is well composed/concentrated. (Ye sati’n... su sammà te susamàhitàti). I’ll be glad to hear any further comments from anyone. Metta, Sarah ====== 28694 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 0:57am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation: To Mike B And Ken O Hi Michael (& Suan), Whilst agreeing with all Suan’s comments in your discussion, I’m sure that none of us could fail to be impressed by your courtesy, restraint and open attitude;-) I appreciate and respect these qualities and your contributions very much. --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Suan: > Please do not forget to read Kathaavatthu to familiarize yourself > with the correct use of the term "paramattha". Kathaavatthu is the > work of Arahant Mahaa Moggliputtatissa based on the Buddha's initial > outlines > > Michael: > I will try to get hold of a copy. But could you give me directions where > in > the book I can find relevant information to the understanding of > paramatha/sabhava? It's a big book and it will be easier if I could have > > some directions. .... Here is the summary of the very first discussion to see if it interests you: “1. Of the Existence of a Personal Entity. Controverted Point. That the ‘person’ is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact. (S:paramattha dhamma). From the commentary- The Theravadin questions a Puggalavadin (one who believes in the existence of a personal entity, soul, or perduring immortal essence in man) concerning his position. Who among the eighteen schools of thought were Puggalavadins? In the Saasana the Vajjiputtakas and Sammitiyas, and many other teachers besides, not belonging to the Saasana. ‘Person’(puggala) means soul, being, vital principle. ‘Is known’: is approached and got at by the understanding, is cognized. ‘Real’: not taken as an effect of magic or mirage, actual. ‘Ultimate’(paramattho): highest sense, not taken from tradition, or hearsay. ‘Known’ as one of the fifty-seven ultimates of our conscious experience (i.e 5 aggregates, 12 sense organs and objects, 18 elements, 22 controlling powers). ***** Actually, it’s not such a big book and very compelling reading,I find. I think most DSG members would enjoy it as the discussions are really so similar to ours here;-) It’s quite incredible given the time difference, but then the knotty points during the Buddha’s time are the same today. I typed out another short refutation the other day. I’d be happy to type out the first one which follows this introduction and summary, if anyone would like it. It’s quite short again. ..... > Michael: > In the book 'Wings to Awakening' (Part III: The Basic Factors; F. > Concentration and Discernment) Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote the following: > > "Some Theravadins insist that questioning the commentaries is a sign of > disrespect for the tradition, but it seems to be a sign of greater > disrespect for the Buddha -- or the compilers of the Canon -- to assume > that > he or they would have left out something absolutely essential to the > practice." .... And yet we read many examples where the Buddha encourages his disciples to elaborate on his teachings. This is how the entire suttanta became the ‘word of the Buddha’. We see many examples of Mahakaccayana, Sariputta, Ananda, Mahakassapa and others giving detailed explanations to brief summaries given by the Buddha, such as MN18, Madhupindika sutta. Some of these elaborations are contained in the Tipitaka itself and some are contained in the ancient commentaries compiled and preserved by these first disciples or those that followed, such as Mahinda, the great arahant who took the entire teachings and commentaries to Sri Lanka with him, resulting in the Sinhala versions (closed to further additions after the first century I believe) which Buddhaghosa, Dhammapala and others relied on. Btw, we read in various ancient commentaries about how the Abhidhamma (for the most part) was rehearsed at the First Council. I was recently told me that according to the comy to the DN, the Abhidhamma pitaka was rehearsed after AN at this time. Metta and appreciation, Metta, Sarah ==== 28695 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 1:02am Subject: Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [James] Hi James, Just a few comments on your post, and then a few additional stand- alone posts... ..... J: "Then one female student said 'meditation', I agreed and continued the discussion when one of the male students interrupted, 'That doesn't do anything. That doesn't work.' Then the two students started to get into a rather heated exchange about it..." --> Did you happen to ask them what they meant by 'meditation.' There are sure a lot of different ideas about just what that word means. .... J: "Again, I don't agree with your definition of path. Your prose is quite beautiful, compelling, well constructed and articulate, but I don't agree with your message. The Buddha described the path as good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end. This obviously suggests a progression. To you path is either on/off, path/no path; and the only ones who would be on are arahants who have destroyed the three poisons, the rest of us are off. To you there is no beginning, middle, or end. Hmmm…why bother?" --> I address these points in subsequent posts. .... J: "Now, about the sutta quote: MN 21: 'Bhikkhus, even if bandits were to sever you savagely limb by limb with a two-handed saw, he who gave rise to a mind of hate towards them would not be carrying out my teachings.' This is a metaphor that is not to be taken literally and contains a touch of hyperbole for a specific purpose. If you take this statement literally that would mean that the only way to follow the Buddha's teachings would be if bandits sawed your limbs off and you didn't feel any hate toward them. Gosh, I don't think membership in that sangha would be on the rise! ;-) And there would be a lot of crippled bhikkhus crawling around. That is not what the Buddha intended. They Buddha simply wanted to emphasize that hate and anger is not justifiable for any reason. So, did that mean that all of the monks in his sangha met this criteria? Probably not or it would have been an initiation procedure. Talk about hazing! ;-) (Okay, I will stop with the jokes.) My main point is that this statement is not to be taken literally and should not form your entire impression of the Buddha's path." --> A couple of comments: (1) The quote doesn't say anything about needing to saw off your arms to follow the path! It only says that you can't say you are following the path at those moments when dosa arises -- no excuses! (2) The comment is certainly to be taken literally. It just wouldn't be right for that bhikkhu to defile the Buddha's teachings by claiming to follow Him even at those times when he was hateful -- even if he had an understandable reason for that hatred. On the Buddha's path, there is no room for hatred. .... J: "I will wait for your later post. Glad my `sour' comment didn't scare you off." --> It really takes quite a lot to scare me off. Metta, Dan 28696 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 1:04am Subject: An anology Dear James (and whomever else might be peeking in), An analogy: I've been listening to a series of 32 recorded lectures on the music of J.S. Bach by Robert Greenberg -- a composer, teacher, and superstar lecturer at San Francisco Conservatory of Music. In his discussion about cantata 140, Greenberg tells of a little insight he has into composing: "What do you think composers think about? Do you think they just think, 'Oh, please, Lord, let me have an inspiration!'? Oh, no. If that was what you were waiting for, you would write one piece every ten years, because we all know that divine inspiration is oh-so-choosy in its time and place. Now, one has to be a craftsperson." Of course, Bach was quite a master at his craft -- both performance and composition. His technical expertise was unrivalled during his time, as was his knowledge of musical theory and his knowledge of the music of other composers. When "divine inspiration" struck, the music he composed was astounding. However, without having first put in all the countless of hours of preparation and developing technical mastery, he would not have been able to do anything of note when that divine inspiration struck. "Whoa! I feel so inspired to do something, but what.......... Hmmm... I know! I'll write some music! ... Let's see... that bottom line on the treble clef is E and the next line is G. If I play those at the same time, it sounds kind of nice ... harmony! Sigh, the inspiration's gone... Honey, what's on the tube tonight?" He'd have missed a wonderful opportunity to perform some truly beautiful work because he was not prepared to perform when the time presented itself. At other times, he might have been touched by divine inspiration and not even really noticed it: "Whoa! I suddenly feel great... I wonder if Christoph wants to grab a beer with me..." So it goes with development of insight too. Of course, insight ("divine inspiration") cannot be forced -- even by reading the whole Tipitika and meditating for 25 hours per day. But when it comes, what will you be able to do with it? Will it register as insight and move you an inch along the long, long path? Or will you not even be able to recognize it? There can be no movement along the path unless the difference between path and not-path can be discerned.* That discernment will not take hold unless there is first a well- considered and correct understanding of samma-ditthi (Right view) and samma-vayama (Right effort). A critical component of "Right" for all the path factors is that the view, effort, etc. is free from lobha/dosa/moha because the Buddha's path precludes akusala-rooted consciousness. At this point, it is critical to understand that I do not mean that the *person* must be free from lobha/dosa/moha before the path can be discerned, only that lobha/dosa/moha cannot arise in the mind that treads the path. This may seem like a funny paradox, but it really isn't. Minds arise and fall with great rapidity. Some of them are rooted in lobha/dosa/moha; some of them are not. Progress along the path is made only by a mind not rooted in lobha/dosa/moha. Does this mean that only arahants can make progress on the path? Not in the least bit -- unless you are thinking in terms of "I", as in: "'I' am not an arahant, so 'I' am not free from moha. Therefore, according to Dan, 'I' cannot make progress on the path. He says that only a mind free from moha can even discern the path, and only an arahant's mind is free from moha." Step back from this 'I' for a moment and consider that "the mind" is really just a way to refer to a long, long series of "minds" that arise and fall from moment to moment. Some of these minds (or mind moments, or cittas, if you will) are free from lobha/dosa/moha -- even in you and me! Only when these minds arise can we make progress on the path. This realization is essential to real progress on the path. (Note: Although akusala cittas cannot discern the path, most kusala cittas do not either; but this is a topic for another day!) ------------ * By "path", I am referring to the mundane path. Dan 28697 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 1:06am Subject: Views along the way Dear James (and whomever else might be peeking), When there is a well-considered understanding of the path* as being strictly limited to kusala cittas (and a limited class of those as well), there is naturally more attention paid to understanding how to distinguish between kusala and akusala cittas as they arise and pass away. With practice, though, the distinguishing improves and there is a realization: "OH............MY............GOD! I'm just a bundle of akusala! One after another -- akusala, akusala, akusala, akusala, ... Ha, ha!" What an invigorating, lightening insight! What a joy! But as progress on the path inches forward over the long haul -- an occasional moment or two of a Buddhist version of Greenberg's "divine inspiration" -- the view from the path gradually changes. After my first intensive meditation retreat in Thailand**, my teacher gave me a book called "Practicing Insight on Your Own." I devoured the book. The chapter entitled "Gauging the Results of the Practice" (based on Vism. XX and XXI) really grabbed my eye: "Hmmm... How much progress did I make during my stay? Oh, this and this and this are familiar. I must be right at such-and-such stage now." It was a wondrous two weeks -- so calm and peaceful and happy! During the stay, I kept hearing about how the various cool phenomena that occur in the course of such a retreat are really not the path and are quite likely to distract the meditator from the path. Then, I saw them all organized in my little book (or Vism XX 105ff.) as vipassanupakkilesa (imperfections of insight): 1. illumination, 2. rapture, 3. tranquility, 4. bliss, 5. confidence, 6. energy, 7. awareness, 8. knowledge, 9. equanimity, 10. attachment. But how can these be called 'imperfections' when they sound and feel so wonderful? Simply because it is WAY easy to become attached to them and miss the path because of the distraction. These phenomena are so enticing that one learns to cultivate them. What is difficult to discern is that the cultivation of these phenomena is driven by lobha, and lobha is such a convincing teacher that it can convince you it is leading you down the path! These phenomena are not 'bad' or 'wrong' in and of themselves, but attachment to them is a great hindrance and a difficult one to discern and overcome (I know several, very experienced people who might chide me for making such blasé understatement!). Once those barriers are overcome, what's the view like for the meditator progressing on the path? Vism discusses them in some degree of detail in chapter XXI: bhangañana (knowledge of dissolution -- I wrote a post about this awhile back, but misspelled it as bhavangañana [or some similar absurdity]) bhayañana (knowledge of fear) adinavañana (knowledge of danger) nibbidañana (knowledge of disgust) muñcitukamyatañana (knowledge of desire for deliverance) Don't these sound fun? (Almost as much fun as that (seemingly) wet blanket post I sent you the other day -- the one that you thought was turning sour...) The descriptions in Vism get even jucier: For bhayañana? "...formations...appear to him in the form of a great terror, as lions, tigers, leopards, bears, hyenas, spirits, ogres, fierce bulls, savage dogs, rut-maddened wild elephants, hideous venomous serpents, thunderbolts, charnel grounds, battlefields, flaming coal pits, etc., appear to a timid man who wants to live in peace." For adinavañana? "The three kinds of becoming appear like charcoal pits full of glowing coals, the four primary elements like hideous venomous snakes, the five aggregates like murderers with raised weapons, the six internal bases like village-raiding robbers, the seven stations of consciousness and the nine abodes of beings as though burning, blazing and glowing with the eleven fires, and all formations appear as a huge mass of dangers destitute of satisfaction or substance, like a tumor, a disease, a dart, a calamity, an affliction." For nibbidañana? "...he becomes dispassionate towards, is dissatisfied with, takes no delight in the manifold field of formations belonging to any kind of becoming, destiny, station of consciousness, or abode of beings." For muñcitukamyatañana? "Just as a fish in a net, a frog in a snake's jaws, a jungle fowl shut into a cage, a deer fallen into the clutches of a strong snare, a snake in the hands of a snake charmer, an elephant stuck fast in a great bog, a royal naga in the mouth of a supanna, the moon inside Rahu's mouth (!), a man encircled by enemies, etc. -- just as these are desirous of being delivered, of finding an escape from these things, so too this meditator's mind is desirous of being delivered from the whole field of formations..." By the sound of it, these insights are horrific. Misery, hopelessness, despair -- how depressing! But when these stages are really reached, the response is a peaceful dedication to treading the path as the way to get free from the world of formations, and there is not any dosa-rooted reaction like hopelessness, despair, or depression, and there is no elated reaction of "Awesome! It's exciting to be such and advanced meditator." Next comes sankharupekkhañana (knowledge of equanimity) and finally the liberating insights. What is the purpose of all this description? James, you asked about how the path can be like a path if it's only a momentary, now-it's- there/now-it's-not type of thing. I guess the way to explain it is to just say that when you tread the path for a moment or two, you might move forward an inch or two. Afterwards, you remember what you saw. People take notes on and talk about the view from different points on the path. One can spend hours and weeks and months and years searching for the path. Then, they find it for a moment or two and inch forward just a tad. What a wonderful moment! But it is hard (and wrong) to think of all the many, many other moments of effort as being wasted. Even if the overwhelming majority of time is spent in wrong effort (a couple years ago, we had a brief, light-hearted (but serious) discussion about whether kamma was 99.99% akusala or 99.999%), I believe that Right Effort can only be recognized after many, many avenues of wrong effort have been thoroughly explored. Also, training in the fundamentals (pariyatti, precepts, Mahasi- or Goenka-style meditation) is of inestimable value for preparing the mind for recognizing, registering, and solidifying insight. In addition, training in the fundamentals tends to make people better citizens. Dan ------------------- * By "path", I am referring to the mundane path. ** This was the first of many intensive meditation retreats in Thailand and the U.S., following Mahasi-style and Goenka-style instructions (not at the same time, of course). 28698 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 1:07am Subject: Re: How do you practice the Paramitas and Factors of Awakening Hello Philip, Have you had a look at the posts on the Paramis (Perfections) in the Useful Posts yet? See what you think ... click on: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ and scroll down to the 'P's. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hello everyone. > > What advice would you give a beginner about how to approach the > Paramitas in one's daily life? I'll be practicing the Mahayana 6. > (Actually, I lean more towards Theravada in most things, but the 6 > seem clearer to start with than 10!) > Do you usually focus on one when you sense you need to make > progress in that area, or keep a balanced awareness of all of them? I > realize, of course, that the practice of one supports the others, but > do you use a kind of selective focus? > The same question goes for the 7 Factors of Awakening. (Sapta- > Bodyanga) What role do they play in your practice? I sense that they > serve more as a gauge to look in on how we're doing, and a helpful > tool for balancing. (e.g, using one of more of the rousing factors > when feeling sluggish, or a calming factor when feeling agitated.) > > I sense that the Paramitas and Factors of Awakening are very > important. Really taking the Eightfold Path off the page and putting > it into practice - that's how it feels to me anyways. > > Thanks for any guidance you can give me based on your experience. > > With Metta, > Philip 28699 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 1:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [James] Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > Oh, sorry; I guess I jumped the gun a little bit. > .... > Oh, that was a mild one from you too. James: Don't remind me. ;-)) It's a very good discussion;-) > > If you ever have a rainy holiday in Cairo, you might like to trace Dan's > posts from the start - he's our poster boy for Reform;-);-) > > Here is a taste of classic Dan that I can find quickly: > > Dan on meditation: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/7753 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13149 James: Thank you for these links to previous posts by Dan. Now I think I have the answer to the question I asked in my last post on this thread. It seems that Dan has practiced intensive meditation and that he did have adequate teachers, unfortunately he didn't listen to them. He thought he knew it all and disregarded their advice. That is potentially very dangerous. It is so easy at the beginning of meditation practice, when one begins to experience fantastic things like overwhelming calm, lights, visions, etc., to think that they are making real progress. My meditation teacher told me to ignore such things and that they didn't mean anything, I followed his advice and I eventually saw that they didn't mean anything. It seems like Dan realized this to some extent in hindsight but he needed to realize it during the actual practice. He began extremely attached to the calm, like it was a drug…he needed that `fix'. He failed to reach the point of knowing what is and what is not important during the actual meditation: "While engaged in noticing, the meditator either by himself or through instructions from someone else, comes to this decision: "The brilliant light, and the other things experienced by me, are not the path. Delight in them is merely a corruption of insight. The practice of continuously noticing the object as it becomes evident -- that alone is the way of insight. I must go on with just the work of noticing." This decision is called purification by knowledge and vision of what is path and not- path."http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html#ch5 I don't meditate because of the calm or visions or anything else it gives me. If I had become addicted to the calm, I would probably be a much more faithful meditator! As it is, that allure wore off. I meditate because I feel instinctively that I need to; it is hard to explain really. I couldn't tell you specifically what good it does me or even if I am making progress. My progress is extremely slow. I suspect that if Dan picked up the practice and disregarded the calm he experienced, he would be right back at where he left off. If is unfortunate that he wasted so much time stuck at one point but he should have listened to his teacher. Now he has become disgusted with the practice and preaches against it. Oh well, that happens. > > If you ever think for a moment that Dan gave others of us an easier time, > check out his posts and the following thread on: > Discouraging 1.1 series, starting in May 2001, I think. Oh, shudder...:-/ > > Light Relief: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8673 James: This was extremely funny! Growing up in Missouri I could identify with a lot here. (And I don't think that Dan is giving me a difficult time.) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== Metta, James 28700 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Austerity Hi RobK & Victor, It’s good to see more friends contributing to the Samyutta Nikaya threads. (For anyone new to DSG, we’re looking at any suttas from SN2, Devaputtasamyutta for now and working through the samyuttas). --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Rob K, > > Let me quote the passage regarding the Blessed One's reply to the > verses spoken by Mara the Evil One: > > > Then the Blessed One, having understood, "This is Mara the Evil > One," replied to Mara the Evil One in verse: > > "Whatever forms exist here or beyond, > And those of luminous beauty in the sky, > All these, indeed, you praise, Namuci, > Like bait thrown out for catching fish." > * > *Bhikkhu Bodhi (trans.), The Connected Discourses of the Buddha : a > new translation of the Samyutta Nikaya, p. 163 .... For those without BB’s translation, there is a footnote 198 to this verse: “Namuci is a name of Mara, which Spk-p.t (the sub-commentary) explains as meaning ‘he does not free’ (na muci): va.t.tadukkhato aparimuttapaccayattaa namuci; ‘He is called Namuci because he does not let one get free from the suffering of the round.’ Spk paraphrases the Buddha’s remark: ‘Just as a fisherman throws out bait at the end of a hook for the purpose of catching fish, so, by praising these forms, you throw them out in order to catch living beings.’” In an earlier verse we read: “Even by howling along the wretched jackal Remains a vile beast, never the lion’s peer.” In other words, imitation of actions and appearances does not lead to enlightenment!! (Christine, did you see n193 on austerity and scrupulousness? “Spk explains his [Makkhali’s] austerity (tapa) as bodily mortification and his scrupulousness (jigucchaa) as the loathing of evil [Spk-pt: the undertaking of the vow of nudity, etc, in the belief that this is the way to eliminate evil]....” Metta, Sarah ============================================= 28701 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theft of a flowers' scent- Herman Hi Azita, Christine & All smell thieves, --- gazita2002 wrote: > Still smiling at some classic Azita lines snipped for now;-) > However, I am a smell thief, often stopping to smell the > gardenias which grow outside the city library. I have stopped > picking them though. .... Christine, I've never understood the sutta given to be relating to the 2nd precept (as you introduced it), but to what is appropriate for a monk and a good reminder for us all about attachment in everyday life. Now as for picking those gardenias, that's another matter and I'm glad to hear this has stopped, Azita. But then, of course, it might again come back to knowledge about it being a wrong action and I can see plenty of grey area here too..... Metta, Sarah ======= 28702 From: Philip Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 5:23am Subject: Re: How do you practice the Paramitas and Factors of Awakening Thanks Christine! I hadn't caught on to that resource. If I find a post that I would like to ask for clarification on, is it all right to bring it back up on to the board? With Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Philip, > > Have you had a look at the posts on the Paramis (Perfections) in the > Useful Posts yet? > See what you think ... click on: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ > and scroll down to the 'P's. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > > 28703 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How do you practice the Paramitas and Factors of Awakening Hi Philip, --- Philip wrote: > > Thanks Christine! I hadn't caught on to that resource. If I find a > post that I would like to ask for clarification on, is it all right > to bring it back up on to the board? ... May I butt in and say that would be great. Any post or thread from the archives is always open for further discussion. On the Paramis (Perfections), please also take a look at Nina's clear book and read about as few or many of them as you like. Again, she and others would be glad to give further clarification or comments: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm It's good to hear of your interest. We'll look forward to the posts you bring up with interest;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 28704 From: Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [James] Hi, Sarah (and Dan ... and James) - In a message dated 1/5/04 3:06:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > I don’t have access to any more of the commentary than the part James > quoted from BB either. (I’d be grateful if Nina or anyone else were able > to assist further in this regard). Just a few more speculations of my own > here. > > Before the first stage of enlightenment (sotapatti magga), the path is > uneven in the sense that wrong views can lead one astray at any time in > between moments of satipatthana. For the noble ones, even though there is > akusala arising (unless an arahant), no more wrong view and no more > falling back or down. Max, 7 lives. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: What path? Must be the conventional path of practice (which is exactly what I take the Noble Eightfold Path to be). ------------------------------------------------------ > .... > D:>But the first two lines: "Though the path is > >impassable and uneven, > >The noble ones walk it, Kamada" are a riddle. The commentary seems to > >take the word "path" in the conventional, JamesHowardsian sense > >of "sitting in a corner trying to follow Mahasi's instructions > >is 'the path' even when there is no arising of satipatthana or even > >of kusala": > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: A bit of a disclaimer here, Dan: 1) I don't like or follow the Mahasi labeling approach to meditating, and 2) Although some folks seem to think that Right View is the whole of the path, I think the path is truly 8-fold and is *not* just meditation (i.e. Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration). [Oh, and Dan - when "sitting in a corner," must one be on a stool wearing a dunce cap? Is that the picture? ;-) Or ... is the picture of a serene Buddha seated in full lotus better?] -------------------------------------------------- > .... > Hmmm. You might be going a bit far there;-) > > Although there are many ‘impediments’ and falls before sotapatti magga in > between the arising of satipatthana, the ariyans have overcome these. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, I'll buy that, Sarah.The path is still difficult and uneven, but definitely walkable for an ariyan, since even a stream enterer has "caught a wave", with only the traditional 7 lifetimes remaining. ----------------------------------------------------- > .... > D:>"Although the noble path is neither impassable nor uneven > >(duggamo visamo) this is said because there are many impediments in > >the preliminary portion of the path." Are there 'impediments' in the > >Right path? Hmmm... > .... > Different moments. In between moments of satipatthana. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: And in those in-between moments the path is still being walked! The sutta, itself, states "Though the path is impassable and uneven, The noble ones walk it, Kamada." So, the ariyans, according to the sutta, itself, can negotiiate the path, but it is a path that is impassable (obviously only in the sense of being very difficult of passage) and uneven, and, thus, certainly a conventional path of practice, not a pristine, in-the-moment piece of perfection. ------------------------------------------------- > .... > D:>There are the anusaya which are bound to arise > >with great frequency and knock us quickly off the path as long as our > >path-walking is still in the preliminary portion of the path. Could > >this be what 'impediments' means here? Or could this "uneven path" be > >referring to the ignoble's mistaken view of the path (or view of the > >Wrong path) because "the path of the noble ones is even"? It reads > >like a koan -- I like it. > .... > Yes, I take it to be referring to wrong views. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: When one is knocked off the path, one is no longer on the path. That's certainly true. But the path, *itself*, is said to be impassable and uneven. It is not said that the path is passable and even, but it is difficult to *remain* on the path except for ariyans, and when off the path there is impassability and unevenness. Again, what is said is "Though the path is impassable and uneven, The noble ones walk it, Kamada." ------------------------------------------------------------ > > I’m also looking at the lines before: > > “they concentrate* even what is hard to concentrate, > [O Kaamada, “ said the Blessed One] > “Who delight in calming the faculties. > Having cut through the net of Death, > The noble ones, O Kaamada go their way.â€? > > *samadaahanti: see dict entry- > Samadahati (p. 684) [san+adahati1] to put together S I.169. jotin s. to > kindle a fire Vin IV.115; cittan s. to compose the mind, concentrate M > I.116; .....pp. samahita. > ***** > In the following sutta, SN2:7 Pa~ncaalaca.n.da, we read: > > “Even in the midst of confinement* they find it, > [O Pa~ncaalaca.n.da,â€? said the Blessed One,] > “The Dhamma for the attainment of Nibbaana- > Those who have acquired mindfulness, > Those perfectly well concentrated.â€?** > > *confinement (sambaadha) referring to confinement by the five hindrances. > **BB’s n152 - “The ‘Dhamma for the attainment of Nibbana’ (dhamma.m > nibbaanapattiyaa) is presumably the Noble Eightfold Path. > Spk-p.t: ....The Buddha’s reply is intended to show that the first > form-sphere jhana is a mere fragment of the infinite and immeasurable > qualities of a Buddha. By mindfulness (sati) he refers to the mindfulness > of insight and of the noble path. Well concentrated (susamaahita) > signifies both mundane and supramundane concentration.â€? > > In other words, as I understand it, with awareness &insight(sati), the > mind(citta) is well composed/concentrated. > (Ye sati’n... su sammà te susamà hità ti). > > I’ll be glad to hear any further comments from anyone. > Metta, > > Sarah > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28705 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 7:39am Subject: Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [James] Hi Dan, Dan: --> Did you happen to ask them what they meant by 'meditation.' There are sure a lot of different ideas about just what that word means. James: No, I didn't happen to ask them that. I was trying to teach a poem and didn't want the subject to veer off into a discussion about meditation (And believe me, they would probably rather discuss anything else in the world except Wordsworth! ;-)). I would just imagine that they had the typical notion of meditation: someone sitting cross legged with the eyes closed, or partially closed, not moving. I think most of the different ideas you suggest have to do with what is happening in the person's mind and not with the appearance of the act. To try and determine if the students meant vipassana, jhana, or samatha meditation with a classroom of sixteen/seventeen-year-olds would just be asking for trouble! ;-) Dan: (1) The quote doesn't say anything about needing to saw off your arms to follow the path! James: If you take it literally it sure does. But actually the sawing would have to be done by someone else, specifically bandits. And it would have to be a two-handed saw. Dan: It only says that you can't say you are following the path at those moments when dosa arises -- no excuses! James: Now, here is where we are going to differ a bit and will be a good illustration of why I don't like to use Pali words. The Pali word dosa can signify various strengths of this emotion. Dosa can just be simple aversion (which all of us experience in a multitude of different ways every second…until enlightened), dosa is also anger which is a much stronger version of aversion, and dosa also means hatred which is the strongest version of aversion (Frankly, I am not sure, technically, which is stronger: anger or hate, but I am guessing hate. Guess it would depend on the situation). The Buddha said in the quote "…he who gave rise to a mind of hate towards them would not be carrying out my teachings." Now, you take this to mean just any moment of aversion "dosa" would mean that one isn't following his teachings anymore. Like if my wrist hurts while typing this post and I feel aversion to that, I am now off the path. I think you have gone overboard with this kind of thinking. By your standards, absolutely no one would be following the path except the enlightened. Dan: The comment is certainly to be taken literally. James: No it isn't, it is a hypothetical metaphor. Okay, first, how would anyone know how they would react when this happens? Personally, I don't think I would feel hate, I would probably feel afraid and in pain; but I'm not sure. Do you know how you would feel? Would anyone know how they would feel? Second, the Buddha is presenting this hypothetical metaphor as a teaching aid. He would not be telling this to bhikkhus who are already enlightened. There would be no reason. Obviously he is directing this statement to those who still harbor some hate in their minds. He is not just matter-of-factly describing one who follows his teachings and one who doesn't, he is trying to compel and explain to those bhikkhus who need to hear it that hate is never appropriate; at least that is how I see it. Dan: It just wouldn't be right for that bhikkhu to defile the Buddha's teachings by claiming to follow Him even at those times when he was hateful -- even if he had an understandable reason for that hatred. On he Buddha's path, there is no room for hatred. James: Okay, this I do agree with. I just don't think it is right to make the mental leap from hatred to all occurrences of dosa. Metta, James 28706 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 7:41am Subject: Re: characteristics - formulation: To Mike B And Ken O And Sarah Dear Michael, Sarah and all How are you? Happy New Year to Sarah. Michael wrote: "Maybe you can help me with my homework and explain what is pannatti then. I remember in your previous post you said it is not part of dependent origination. What is it then? I would really apreciate." Paññatti is a subject one can look at from many angles, but I will only touch on the subject without consulting the Buddha's own Suttams and other traditional Pali texts. We have two truths conveyed by the terms "sammuti saccaa" and "paramattha saccaa". Sammuti saccaa is conventional truth while paramattha saccaa is real or actual truth. Coventional truth is truth by convention, or truth through the processes of naming or labeling. Real or actual truth is truth by observation, experience, or experiment. Paññatti belongs to conventional truth. As an example, the term "anger" is a paññatti because it is a name of a phenomenon that can arise in us. It is a conventional truth because the native speakers of English understand what it is whenever they hear the sound "anger" or read the word "anger". And they can also look it up in an English dictionary. However, the phenomenon anger is a paramattha because it can actually arise in us when we are provoked, for example. Here, please remember that anger is an emergent phenomenon that can arise only when there are relevant conditions such as provocations or insult and injury. And when those relevant conditions disappear, anger also DISAPPEARS. Our minds do not carry anger around like we carry our credit cards around when shopping at the supermarket or on the Internet. Now, paññatti or conventional truths are regarded as the most important things in any society. Every human being is required to learn conventional truths ever since they can recognize the first sound or learn the first word. The world's education systems are entirely based on conventional truths or paññatti. Some individuals go even extra lengths to master languages other than their native ones. For example, I studied English as a degree subject with the British lecturers at the university for four years. And to get that priviledge, I needed to have already understood English well. Otherwise, no admission to enrol in the English degree course at the university. I mentioned these to stress the importance of paññatti or conventional truths in human societies in the secular worldly context. On the othe hand, paramattha saccaaa or the real or actual truths are mainly the preserve of the scientific circles and real-life Buddhist scholars and practitioners. I used the expression "real-life Buddhist scholars and practitioners" to keep out speculative academics who study Buddhism in the departments of religious studies for personal gains such as a doctorate degree and employment. Professors David Kalupahana and Peter Harvey, Dr Peter Masefield and the like belong to speculative academics for personal secular gains. They are also what I call "Neo-Rhys-Davidsites" who think it fashinable to criticize Aacariya Buddhaghosa and standard Theravada commentaries. While it is easier to speculate on and talk about paññatti or conventional truths, if because of constant exposure, it is far more difficult to take to the practice of observing, experiencing and experimenting paramattha dhammas, the real or actual phenomena. That is why I often write that the filed of Buddhist studies is currently in the wrong hands represented by the likes of Professor David Kalupahana and other neo-Ryhs-Davidsites from the speculative religious departments. Scientists must expand their interest and eventually take over the field of genuine Buddhist studies so that paramattha dhammaa, the real phenomena, can be studied with the advantage of latest available technologies and scientific practices - in addition to traditional training mehtods, of course. Recap: the term "anger" is a paññatti while anger as a cetasika is a paramattha. While the term "anger" in English will change to different sounds or letters from language to language, the paramattha anger as a cetasika will not change between different humans or human societies or nations or even among different life-forms. Next time you hear a dog bark, please also remember to observe it displaying anger. The characteristic of anger in the dog would be barkning in an threatening infriendly manner, for example. Can you observe other characteristics of the dog showing anger? I hope the above brief exposition of paññatti helps. As for the directions regarding Kathaavatthu, please read Sarah's kind posting of excerpts of translation. Sarah, please continue posting of those translations for all to read. Michael also quoted the following from Sayadaw Thanissaro Bhikkhu: ""Some Theravadins insist that questioning the commentaries is a sign of disrespect for the tradition, but it seems to be a sign of greater disrespect for the Buddha -- or the compilers of the Canon -- to assume that he or they would have left out something absolutely essential to the practice." Sarah has also answered in that regard as well. Please read it. I will only add the following. I am a scientist as well as a Pali scholar, and my scientific background forced me to experiment the methods found in Aacariya Buddhaghosa's commentaries. They work! What I am getting at is that instead of speculative questioning, it is far more fruitful to experiment the instructions found in the commentaries. I am aware of the fact that speculative scholars and academics tend to resent Theravada commentaries, but it is usually because the commentaries do not fit in with their own personal preconceptions, usually Veda-leaning prejudices in particular as prevalent among neo- Rhys-Davidsites, notably, Dr Peter Masefiled, and Professor Peter Harvey. And those neo-Rhys-Davidsites got away only by translating Suttam Pali passages inaccurately, which can, of course, be due to their honest immature Pali scholarship as well. By the way, Pali commentaries are formidable and very unsuitable for those with immature Pali scholarship, so resentment of them is very understandable. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: Hello Suan, Suan: "Well, but there is sankhara in dependent origination, and paññati is a sankhara." You must be joking! Where did you get that information? In the formula "Avijjaa paccayaa sankhaaraa ...", sankhaaraa is another term for "cetanaa" which is a cetasika and, therefore, a paramattha. Sankhaara in the above formula roughly means activations or deliberate or intentional actions. In the five aggregates, sankhaarakhandhaa refers to cetasikas with cetanaa as the head (cetanaasiisena). That is why I keep telling you to do your homework in the use of the terms of paramatthas. Michael: Maybe you can help me with my homework and explain what is pannatti then. I remember in your previous post you said it is not part of dependent origination. What is it then? I would really apreciate. . . < snip> Metta Michael 28707 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 9:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] An anology Hi Dan Thanks for this analogy. This identifies my own experience in Buddhism. Previously when I was learning and practising Buddhism even though there are some similarities between what I learn and what I learn now, however to me something was amiss in what I learn previously, there is a feeling that I am not going to the root of eradicating ignorance and there was a constant hunger for the "eureka". I keep searching for this eureka and finally end up with "divine inspiration" from DSG. My humble thanks to all in DSG (all include non-Abhidhammists pple) kind regards Ken O 28708 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 9:22am Subject: Re: Views along the way Hi Dan, Dan: Once those barriers are overcome, what's the view like for the meditator progressing on the path? Vism discusses them in some degree of detail in chapter XXI: bhangañana (knowledge of dissolution -- I wrote a post about this awhile back, but misspelled it as bhavangañana [or some similar absurdity]) bhayañana (knowledge of fear) adinavañana (knowledge of danger) James: Well, there is something about the Vism that I do agree with! I don't like to talk about it, because I don't want to discourage anyone from meditating, but I do lately experience varying degrees of these very strong, negative `knowledges' during and after meditation. That is probably why I don't meditate as often anymore… it really scares me to death!! Actually, the year before last (I think) I started to have very realistic `meditation visions' during non-meditation times of an entity I identified as Mara which terrified me. After some posts to this group and some very frantic off-list posts to Sarah and Howard, I decided to see a meditation monk about the matter. He knew right away what it was and told me to ignore it. I haven't had the visions or experiences since then, thank goodness! But meditation itself, for me now, does bring up these feelings of fear and danger. I know I need to push forward and get through this but I am rather scared often. I am taking it real slow at this point. You are probably very correct to point this out to me and others. Those who choose to seriously meditate should know what they can expect. I had some idea myself but I continued on anyway; nothing could have stopped me. Dan: For bhayañana? "...formations...appear to him in the form of a great terror, as lions, tigers, leopards, bears, hyenas, spirits, ogres, fierce bulls, savage dogs, rut-maddened wild elephants, hideous venomous serpents, thunderbolts, charnel grounds, battlefields, flaming coal pits, etc., appear to a timid man who wants to live in peace." James: Yep, been there, done that. Actually, still there. Dan: For adinavañana? "The three kinds of becoming appear like charcoal pits full of glowing coals, the four primary elements like hideous venomous snakes, the five aggregates like murderers with raised weapons, the six internal bases like village-raiding robbers, the seven stations of consciousness and the nine abodes of beings as though burning, blazing and glowing with the eleven fires, and all formations appear as a huge mass of dangers destitute of satisfaction or substance, like a tumor, a disease, a dart, a calamity, an affliction." James: Kinda yes, kinda no for me. Mainly no. Dan: For nibbidañana? "...he becomes dispassionate towards, is dissatisfied with, takes no delight in the manifold field of formations belonging to any kind of becoming, destiny, station of consciousness, or abode of beings." James: Not there for me. Dan: For muñcitukamyatañana? "Just as a fish in a net, a frog in a snake's jaws, a jungle fowl shut into a cage, a deer fallen into the clutches of a strong snare, a snake in the hands of a snake charmer, an elephant stuck fast in a great bog, a royal naga in the mouth of a supanna, the moon inside Rahu's mouth (!), a man encircled by enemies, etc. -- just as these are desirous of being delivered, of finding an escape from these things, so too this meditator's mind is desirous of being delivered from the whole field of formations..." James: Not there either for me. Dan: when these stages are really reached, the response is a peaceful dedication to treading the path as the way to get free from the world of formations, and there is not any dosa-rooted reaction like hopelessness, despair, or depression, James: I must not really be there then because I do have some dosa- rooted reactions. Is this from the Vism also or your commentary? Dan: Next comes sankharupekkhañana (knowledge of equanimity) and finally the liberating insights. James: HA! This is a long way off for me!. Dan: I believe that Right Effort can only be recognized after many, many avenues of wrong effort have been thoroughly explored. Also, training in the fundamentals (pariyatti, precepts, Mahasi- or Goenka-style meditation) is of inestimable value for preparing the mind for recognizing, registering, and solidifying insight. In addition, training in the fundamentals tends to make people better citizens. James: I agree! Metta, James 28709 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 9:30am Subject: MN 21 recap MN 21: 'Bhikkhus, even if bandits were to sever you savagely limb by limb with a two-handed saw, he who gave rise to a mind of hate towards them would not be carrying out my teachings.' My selective recap of the discussion (ignoring all of what James wrote except for the part where he says he agrees with me): Dan: It only says that you can't say you are following the path at those moments when dosa arises -- no excuses! Dan: It just wouldn't be right for that bhikkhu to defile the Buddha's teachings by claiming to follow Him even at those times when he was hateful -- even if he had an understandable reason for that hatred. On he Buddha's path, there is no room for hatred. James: Okay, this I do agree with. I just don't think it is right to make the mental leap from hatred to all occurrences of dosa. ..... --> I believe you are right that the MN quote uses 'hate' instead of simply 'dosa', but I think there is also no room for even subtle instances of dosa on the Buddha's path. Dan 28710 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 10:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [Howard] Dear Howard, My sentence -- "The commentary seems to take the word "path" in the conventional, JamesHowardsian sense of "sitting in a corner trying to follow Mahasi's instructions is 'the path' even when there is no arising of satipatthana or even of kusala" -- contains some unfair characterizations of your stance, which you rightly point out. It was out of line of me to even attempt to characterize your position like that, and even worse that I got it wrong! I apologize. Comments on the rest of your post are interspersed. > Howard: > A bit of a disclaimer here, Dan: > 1) I don't like or follow the Mahasi labeling approach to meditating, > and > 2) Although some folks seem to think that Right View is the whole of > the path, I think the path is truly 8-fold and is *not* just meditation (i.e. > Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration). ...... H: "Oh, and Dan - when 'sitting in a corner,' must one be on a stool wearing a dunce cap? Is that the picture? ;-) Or ... is the picture of a serene Buddha seated in full lotus better?" --> Sometimes the sitting is with a dunce cap (when moha arises) and sometimes more like a serene Buddha (at those moments uncontaminated by moha). I think if we are really honest with ourselves, most of the time a duncecap would be a more fitting image for what we are doing than the image of a serene Buddha, don't you think? [Ugh! Even at those moments when moha recedes, it still isn't really like a Buddha because the wisdom has just not been developed to that extent.] .... Dan: [citing the commentary to Kamada sutta]: "Although the noble path is neither impassable nor uneven (duggamo visamo) this is said because there are many impediments in the preliminary portion of the path." Are there 'impediments' in the Right path? Hmmm... Sarah: Different moments. In between moments of satipatthana. Howard: And in those in-between moments the path is still being walked! --> I have such a difficult time understanding what you mean here, Howard. It sounds very much like you are saying that you can be on the path even when lobha/dosa/moha arise. I just don't see how, for example, dosa can be included as a component of Right Intention or Right Effort. Great to 'see' you, Howard. Happy New Year! Dan 28711 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] An anology Hi Ken, It's good to hear from you on this thread. I'm glad you found the analogy post helpful. I also want to express my appreciation to all in DSG. Thanks! It continues to be a great ride in a masterfully managed discussion group. Dan wrote: > Hi Dan > > Thanks for this analogy. This identifies my own experience in > Buddhism. Previously when I was learning and practising Buddhism > even though there are some similarities between what I learn and what > I learn now, however to me something was amiss in what I learn > previously, there is a feeling that I am not going to the root of > eradicating ignorance and there was a constant hunger for the > "eureka". I keep searching for this eureka and finally end up with > "divine inspiration" from DSG. My humble thanks to all in DSG (all > include non-Abhidhammists pple) > > > > > kind regards > Ken O > > > > > 28712 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 10:16am Subject: Re: [dsg]process cittas Dear Jon, op 04-01-2004 10:18 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Citta vithi, as well as all terms for the various functions within > the processes of conseiousness, such as ávajjana-citta, > sampaticchana, santírana, votthapana, javana, tadárammana, bhavanga, > cuti: none of these terms is found in the Sutta Canon. except javana, > in Pts.M. Even in the Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana and > bhavanga are twice or thrice briefly mentioned. This was a quote from Nyanatiloka (below). In in Pts.M there are not all the terms, but, very specifically there are the cittas performing their functions in a process. Classified as dhatus. Nina. 28713 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 10:49am Subject: Re: Views along the way Dear James, These higher levels of vipassana arise only when understanding has progressed to the extent that there is no dosa- or lobha-rooted reaction to the phenomena that present themselves. This only happens after seeing clearly the rise and fall of various phenomena from moment to moment: "And his seeing of rise and fall becomes evident to him as the truth of the path: 'This is the mundane path'." [Vism XX 100]. When there is understanding of rise and fall of phenomena, "the characteristic of not-self becomes evident to him through seeing rise according to condition owing to his discovery that states have no curiousity and that their existence depends on conditions." The "discovery that states have no curiosity" means that when there is understanding of 'what is and what is not the path' (which, by the way, is the title of Vism chapter XX), the phenomena do not appear interesting, attractive, repulsive or any other way that inspire curiosity or interest, including lobha or dosa. Vism discusses this explicitly in case of the not-so-fun sounding (but in truth liberating) ñana. For example, in XXI.32 (the section on knowledge of fear): "But does the knowledge of appearance as terror fear or does it not fear? It does not fear. For it is simply the mere judgement that past formations have ceased, present ones are ceasing, and future ones will cease. Just as a man with eyes looking at three charcoal pits at a city gate is not himself afraid, since he only forms the mere judgement that all who fall into them will suffer no little pain..." The knowledge of fear arises because the vision of the fearfulness of formations is so vivid. At the same time, though, this clear vision (vipassana) can only arise when the detachment from formations is sufficiently strong that there will not be a dosa response. If there is a dosa response, then the ñana is not really attained, and the insight is either tender or absent. Dan 28714 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 11:04am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation: To Mike B And Ken O And Sarah Hello Suan, Thank you for your rather comprehensive explanation. There is a point though that I would appreciate to have some additional clarifications. You define paramatha as ‘real or actual phenomena or truth.’ The definition of real, provided by Dictionary.com is as follows: Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence. True and actual; not imaginary, alleged, or ideal. Philosophy: Existing objectively in the world regardless of subjectivity or conventions of thought or language. Existing objectively means having actual existence or reality. And I think that definition ties up with your explanation of pannatti. Pannatti is that which is subjective, in accordance with conventions, or in other words the opposite of real. One could also say that pannatti is not real? If paramatha is real and pannatti is the opposite of paramatha then it makes sense to assume that pannatti is not real. Is that how you would define it? Now, can you please elaborate a little bit more, in accordance with your understanding, about what are the qualities that makes a phenomena ‘exist objectively, to have actual existence or reality’. Metta Michael 28715 From: Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [Howard] Hi, Dan - In a message dated 1/5/04 1:08:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, dalthorp@s... writes: > > Dear Howard, > My sentence -- "The commentary seems to take the word "path" in the > conventional, JamesHowardsian sense of "sitting in a corner trying to > follow Mahasi's instructions is 'the path' even when there is no > arising of satipatthana or even of kusala" -- contains some unfair > characterizations of your stance, which you rightly point out. It was > out of line of me to even attempt to characterize your position like > that, and even worse that I got it wrong! I apologize. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: It's nothing! I just felt I should give a bit of a correction to what seemed to be conveyed. No problem at all, Dan. ------------------------------------------------- Comments on > > the rest of your post are interspersed. > > >Howard: > > A bit of a disclaimer here, Dan: > > 1) I don't like or follow the Mahasi labeling approach to > meditating, > >and > > 2) Although some folks seem to think that Right View is the > whole of > >the path, I think the path is truly 8-fold and is *not* just > meditation (i.e. > >Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration). > ...... > > H: "Oh, and Dan - when 'sitting in a corner,' must one be on a stool > wearing a dunce cap? Is that the picture? ;-) Or ... is the picture > of a serene Buddha seated in full lotus better?" > > --> Sometimes the sitting is with a dunce cap (when moha arises) and > sometimes more like a serene Buddha (at those moments uncontaminated > by moha). I think if we are really honest with ourselves, most of the > time a duncecap would be a more fitting image for what we are doing > than the image of a serene Buddha, don't you think? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, sure! Compared to the state of an arahant we are way lowlier than mere dunces. But in terms of picturing meditation in terms of its purpose and in terms of the ideal, I think that the "sitting in the corner" terminology was less than uplifting. That's all. -------------------------------------------------- > > [Ugh! Even at those moments when moha recedes, it still isn't really > like a Buddha because the wisdom has just not been developed to that > extent.] > > .... > Dan: [citing the commentary to Kamada sutta]: "Although the noble > path is neither impassable nor uneven (duggamo visamo) this is said > because there are many impediments in the preliminary portion of the > path." Are there 'impediments' in the Right path? Hmmm... > > Sarah: Different moments. In between moments of satipatthana. > > Howard: And in those in-between moments the path is still being > walked! > > --> I have such a difficult time understanding what you mean here, > Howard. It sounds very much like you are saying that you can be on > the path even when lobha/dosa/moha arise. I just don't see how, for > example, dosa can be included as a component of Right Intention or > Right Effort. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Due to prior right intention, kusala states and kusala conventional actions are still to follow, even at a moment that one is not "doing well," and in that sense one is still on the path. Right after a not-so-lofty state, due to the repeated intention to be mindful, there may well arise a clear awareness of that just-passed akusala state, including its akusala nature, its impermanence, and its conditioned, insubstantial, and impersonal status. And that akusala state thereby becomes a part of the path. One works with what is there, not with what one would like to be there. Remember, I am not speaking of the path as a momentary matter, but as a conventional path walked along for lifetimes. ------------------------------------------------- > > > Great to 'see' you, Howard. Happy New Year! > Dan > > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Dan. Likewise! Have a wonderful and peaceful year of progress in all things, but especially in the Dhamma. ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28716 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 2:11pm Subject: Two to tango (was Re: Contraception and the First Precept) Hi Christine, I would like to persevere with some of this. Fear not :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Herman, and All, > So, irrespective of whether the person died on the first blow - or > two weeks later from an injury induced blood-clot - it is a > consequence of the 'intention' to kill. And the Buddha's definition > of kamma was 'intentional (volitional) action'. > And, if we are talking about kamma/vipaka, I don't think it has > anything to do with judging oneself. It appears to roll on regardless > of our own excuses, justifications, and boasting. > ============================ It is my understanding that intentions and actions come about precisely because judgements are being made. Judgements proceeding from wrong view lead to wrong intention to wrong action, judgements proceeding from right view lead to right intention to right action, and no judgement leads to no intention to no action. Quite happy to be corrected (or denounced), by the way :-) > Herman: Wouldn't it be a form of pride to claim a state of affairs as > being > entirely the product of one's own desire, intention and effort? > Christine: Maybe stupidity? - if you deliberately killed someone, > would you go around claiming you did? :-) Probably more like > delusion/ignorance , I would think. But say it happened in > a 'legitimate' way, if you were a soldier, it might be conceit. But > having an opinion after the fact doesn't affect the results of kamma, > does it? > ============================ Yes, I agree. The initial activity proceeds from the initial opinion, belief, judgement. How one dresses it up afterwards will not alter the initial activity. But I really wonder how kamma can play a role for one who suspends judgement? All the best Herman > =========================== > and to you > Metta and peace, > > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > 28717 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 2:31pm Subject: Re: An anology Hi Dan, Any analogy with J.S. Bach in it has my full and undivided attention. Your analogy would be perfect if the path was a path of accumulating all the right bits, leading to a perfect construction. Bach's opus certainly fits the bill. My take on the path is that it is precisely the opposite, discarding bits to end up with what is left when there are no bits. I could be wrong, though :-) All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear James (and whomever else might be peeking in), > > An analogy: I've been listening to a series of 32 recorded lectures > on the music of J.S. Bach by Robert Greenberg -- a composer, teacher, > and superstar lecturer at San Francisco Conservatory of Music. In his > discussion about cantata 140, Greenberg tells of a little insight he > has into composing: "What do you think composers think about? Do you > think they just think, 'Oh, please, Lord, let me have an > inspiration!'? Oh, no. If that was what you were waiting for, you > would write one piece every ten years, because we all know that > divine inspiration is oh-so-choosy in its time and place. Now, one > has to be a craftsperson." Of course, Bach was quite a master at his > craft -- both performance and composition. His technical expertise > was unrivalled during his time, as was his knowledge of musical > theory and his knowledge of the music of other composers. > When "divine inspiration" struck, the music he composed was > astounding. However, without having first put in all the countless of > hours of preparation and developing technical mastery, he would not > have been able to do anything of note when that divine inspiration > struck. "Whoa! I feel so inspired to do something, but what.......... > Hmmm... I know! I'll write some music! ... Let's see... that bottom > line on the treble clef is E and the next line is G. If I play those > at the same time, it sounds kind of nice ... harmony! Sigh, the > inspiration's gone... Honey, what's on the tube tonight?" He'd have > missed a wonderful opportunity to perform some truly beautiful work > because he was not prepared to perform when the time presented > itself. At other times, he might have been touched by divine > inspiration and not even really noticed it: "Whoa! I suddenly feel > great... I wonder if Christoph wants to grab a beer with me..." > > So it goes with development of insight too. Of course, insight > ("divine inspiration") cannot be forced -- even by reading the whole > Tipitika and meditating for 25 hours per day. But when it comes, what > will you be able to do with it? Will it register as insight and move > you an inch along the long, long path? Or will you not even be able > to recognize it? There can be no movement along the path unless the > difference between path and not-path can be discerned.* That > discernment will not take hold unless there is first a well- > considered and correct understanding of samma-ditthi (Right view) and > samma-vayama (Right effort). A critical component of "Right" for all > the path factors is that the view, effort, etc. is free from > lobha/dosa/moha because the Buddha's path precludes akusala-rooted > consciousness. At this point, it is critical to understand that I do > not mean that the *person* must be free from lobha/dosa/moha before > the path can be discerned, only that lobha/dosa/moha cannot arise in > the mind that treads the path. This may seem like a funny paradox, > but it really isn't. Minds arise and fall with great rapidity. Some > of them are rooted in lobha/dosa/moha; some of them are not. Progress > along the path is made only by a mind not rooted in lobha/dosa/moha. > Does this mean that only arahants can make progress on the path? Not > in the least bit -- unless you are thinking in terms of "I", as > in: "'I' am not an arahant, so 'I' am not free from moha. Therefore, > according to Dan, 'I' cannot make progress on the path. He says that > only a mind free from moha can even discern the path, and only an > arahant's mind is free from moha." Step back from this 'I' for a > moment and consider that "the mind" is really just a way to refer to > a long, long series of "minds" that arise and fall from moment to > moment. Some of these minds (or mind moments, or cittas, if you will) > are free from lobha/dosa/moha -- even in you and me! Only when these > minds arise can we make progress on the path. This realization is > essential to real progress on the path. (Note: Although akusala > cittas cannot discern the path, most kusala cittas do not either; but > this is a topic for another day!) > > ------------ > * By "path", I am referring to the mundane path. > > > Dan 28718 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 3:40pm Subject: Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [James] Hi James and all, I've been reading the exchange between you and Dan and I find it addressing some interesting points regarding the Noble Eightfold Path (the path) and the meditation practice. In this message I would like to share some reflection on what I read in the exchange regarding the path: First of all, the path is not the goal, namely, the Deathless, the Unbinding/Nibbana, the cessation of dukkha. The path leads to the goal, and it is a path of progression. The progression on the path can be seen in two ways: first, in terms of practice; secondly, in terms of spiritual attainment. In terms of practice, the practice of the path is a gradual training. As Bhikkhu Bodhi notes: In the Majjhima Nikaya, the Buddha often expounds the practice of the path as a gradual training (anupubbasikkha), which unfolds in stages from the first step to the final goal……The main paradigm for the gradual training found in the Majjhima Nikaya is that laid out in MN 27 and MN 51……" [1] In terms of attainment, there are ones who are stream-enterers, once- returners, non-returners, and arahants. Stream-enterers, once- returners, and non-returners are characterized in terms of the destruction of five lower fetters (samyojana) of personality/identity view (sakkayaditthi), doubt, grasping of rules and vows, sensual desire, and ill will. [2] And arahants, "with taints destroyed, have live the holy life, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, reached the true goal, destroyed the fetters of being, and are completely liberated through final knowledge." [3] A point of discussion in the exchange is what it means by "on the path" or "following the path." Specifically, a passage from MN 21 is given to show that whenever lust, aversion, and/or delusion arises, there is no carrying out of the Buddha's teachings, no following the path: Bhikkhus, even if bandits were to sever you savagely limb by limb with a two-handled saw, he who gave rise to a mind of hate towards them would not be carrying out my teaching. [4] It seems that we have run into a contradiction: For a stream-enterer or a once-returner, who has been established in the path but has not destroyed the fetters of sensual desire and ill will completely, if bandits were to sever him or her savagely limb by limb with a two-handled saw, it is possible that a mind of hate in him or her would arise towards them. Thus this stream-enterer or once-returner would not be carrying out the Buddha's teaching and would not be on the path. Or have we really? The contradiction only arose if we did not take right effort, a factor of the path into consideration. For a stream-enterer or a once-returner, the evil, unskillful/unwholesome states of ill will and hatred could (or in a stronger sense, would) still arise in mind. However, if it does arise, one of right effort will "generate desire for the abandoning of the arisen evil, unwholesome [unskillful] states" of ill will and hatred; he or she will "make an effort, arouse energy, apply his [or her] mind, and strives." [5] One who gave rise to a mind of hate towards the bandits who severed him or her savagely limb by limb with a two-handled saw is someone who simply let the mind of hate arise without generating desire for the abandoning of the arisen evil, unskillful/unwholesome states. In that sense, he or she gave rise to a mind of hate towards the bandits. In that sense, he or she was without right effort and thus would not be carrying out the Buddha's teaching. In fact, the passage below that immediately follows the previous passage Herein, Bhikkhus, you should train thus: `Our minds will remain unaffected, and we shall utter no evil words; we shall abide compassionate for their welfare, with a mind of loving-kindness, without inner hate. We shall abide pervading them with a mind imbued with loving-kindness; and starting with them, we shall abide pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with loving- kindness, abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and without ill will.' That is how you should train, bhikkhus. [6] can be understood that the Buddha was teaching the bhikkhus to develop with right effort the skillful/wholesome states of equanimity ("our minds will remain unaffected), right speech ("we shall utter no evil words") and right resolve/compassion and loving- kindness ("we shall abide compassionate for their welfare, with a mind of loving-kindness, without inner hate"). Peace, Victor MLDB: The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A New Translation of the Majjhima Nikaya, translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi. CDB: The Connected Discourses of the Buddha: A New Translation of the Samyutta Nikaya, translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi. [1] MLDB, p. 34-35. [2] MLDB, MN 6, and MN 22. [3] MLDB, MN 22, p. 235. For a stream-enterer, the three lower fetters of personality/identity view (sakkayaditthi), doubt, grasping of rules and vows are destroyed. For a once-returner, lust, hate, and delusion are attenuated with the destruction of the three lower fetters of personality/identity view (sakkayaditthi), doubt, grasping of rules and vows. For a non-returner, all five lower fetters are destroyed. [4] MLDB, p. 223. [5] CDB, p. 1529. [6] MLDB, p. 223. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Dan and All, > > Today something interesting happened in my class that I want to > share. [snip] 28719 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 4:17pm Subject: Re: Views along the way Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear James, > These higher levels of vipassana arise only when understanding has > progressed to the extent that there is no dosa... Thank you for your well-thought out comments; please understand that I will not disregard them but don't wish to comment specifically at this time. However, I will probably seek out the advice of a well- established bhikkhu meditation teacher, higher in conduct that both you and me, when I feel that the time is right and needed (as I believe all serious meditators should do). Metta, James 28720 From: Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 4:18pm Subject: Vism.XIV 60 (1 of 4) "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 60. 13. The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the (material) support for the mind-element and for the mind-consciousness-element. Its function is to observe them. It is manifested as the carrying of them. It is to be found in dependence on the blood, of the kind described in the treatise on the mindfulness of the body (Ch. VIII, 111), inside the heart. It is assisted by the primaries with their functions of upholding, etc.; it is consolidated by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is maintained by life; and it serves as physical basis for the mind-element and the mind-consciousness-element, and for the states associated with them.26 -------------------------- Vism. VIII, 111. This is the heart flesh. As to colour, it is the colour of the back of a red-lotus petal. As to shape, it is the shape of a lotus bud with the outer petals removed and turned upside down; it is smooth outside, and inside it is like the interior of a kosataki (loofah gourd). In those who possess understanding it is a little expanded; in those without understanding it is still only a bud. Inside it there is a hollow the size of a punnaga seed's bed where half a pasata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur. 28721 From: Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 60 (1 of 4) Hi all, Here are some definitions of "mind element" and "mind-consciousness element" from Nyanatiloa's "Buddhist Dictionary" http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm mano-dhátu: 'mind-element', is one of the 18 elements (s. dhátu II). This term, unlike manáyatana, does not apply to the whole of consciousness, but designates only that special element of consciousness which first, at the beginning of the process of sense-perception, performs the function of advertence (ávajjana; Tab. I, 70) to the sense-object and, then after twice having become conscious of it performs the function of reception (sampaticchana; Tab I- 39,.55) into mind-consciousness. See viññána-kicca. manovinñána-dhátu: 'mind-consciousness element', one of the 18 'elements' (s. dhátu II). This term is generally used as a name for that consciousness-element which performs the functions of investigation (santírana), determining (votthapana), registering (tadárammana), etc. See Tab. I, 40, 41, 56, 71, 72. Larry 28722 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [James] Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi James and all, > > I've been reading the exchange between you and Dan and I find it > addressing some interesting points regarding the Noble Eightfold > Path (the path) and the meditation practice. Thank you for your post. I agree with your detailed and well- considered analysis of this matter. Of course this seemingly `either/or' proposition of the Buddha is not to be considered in a superficial, quick manner. One must consider his audience, his intention, and his supreme insight. We modern-day folks, with nothing to go on but dead scribbles on a blank sheet of paper (or computer screen) are bound to make mistakes when interpreting his messages. I am glad that you have incorporated some other perspectives that are important to consider (and I would suspect that there are even more yet unknown!). Metta, James 28723 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 4:55pm Subject: Re: Views along the way -- correction James, please be more careful in your quotes. For the record, my original sentence reads: "These higher levels of vipassana arise only when understanding has progressed to the extent that there is no dosa- or lobha-rooted reaction to the phenomena that present themselves," which is decidedly different from the sentence you have me writing, viz. "These higher levels of vipassana arise only when understanding has pogressed to the extent that there is no dosa..." It's not fair to clip parts of sentences that are central to the meaning. Dan 28724 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 5:14pm Subject: Re: Views along the way -- correction Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > James, please be more careful in your quotes. > > For the record, my original sentence reads: "These higher levels of > vipassana arise only when understanding has progressed to the extent > that there is no dosa- or lobha-rooted reaction to the phenomena that > present themselves," which is decidedly different from the sentence > you have me writing, viz. "These higher levels of vipassana arise > only when understanding has pogressed to the extent that there is no > dosa..." It's not fair to clip parts of sentences that are > central to the meaning. >Dan I 100% assure you that I did not intentionally clip your statement in a place where I thought it might benefit my position (not that I have any position on this matter really). You had written a lot of valuable information and I didn't want to clip everything, I wanted to leave a small bit (to inspire others to find the original post and read more perhaps), so I just picked the first pause in the first statement. I honestly didn't plan anything (I don't pay a lot of atention to Pali words to tell you the truth; ask Sarah, I'm allergic to them ;-). If you want to blame anyone blame Sarah and Jon for their strict adherence to clipping procedures. They are Clipping Nazis! ;-)) So anyway, please accept my sincere apology. Metta, James 28725 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 5:49pm Subject: Re: An anology [Herman] Dear Herman, Good point! Dan > Hi Dan, > > Any analogy with J.S. Bach in it has my full and undivided attention. > > Your analogy would be perfect if the path was a path of accumulating > all the right bits, leading to a perfect construction. Bach's opus > certainly fits the bill. > > My take on the path is that it is precisely the opposite, discarding > bits to end up with what is left when there are no bits. > > I could be wrong, though :-) 28726 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 5:55pm Subject: Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [James] Interesting analysis, Victor. You raise some great points. The Ariyans are said to be "on the path" even though they are not free from dosa [in the case of sotapanna and sakadagami]. I don't have time to consider this fully now or to respond properly, so I'll just have to pass the torch to Sarah, RobK, Jonathon, or whoever else may take the bait. Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi James and all, > > I've been reading the exchange between you and Dan and I find it > addressing some interesting points regarding the Noble Eightfold > Path (the path) and the meditation practice. > > In this message I would like to share some reflection on what I read > in the exchange regarding the path: > > First of all, the path is not the goal, namely, the Deathless, the > Unbinding/Nibbana, the cessation of dukkha. The path leads to the > goal, and it is a path of progression. The progression on the path > can be seen in two ways: first, in terms of practice; secondly, in > terms of spiritual attainment. > > In terms of practice, the practice of the path is a gradual > training. As Bhikkhu Bodhi notes: > > > In the Majjhima Nikaya, the Buddha often expounds the practice of > the path as a gradual training (anupubbasikkha), which unfolds in > stages from the first step to the final goal……The main paradigm for > the gradual training found in the Majjhima Nikaya is that laid out > in MN 27 and MN 51……" > [1] > > In terms of attainment, there are ones who are stream-enterers, once- > returners, non-returners, and arahants. Stream-enterers, once- > returners, and non-returners are characterized in terms of the > destruction of five lower fetters (samyojana) of > personality/identity view (sakkayaditthi), doubt, grasping of rules > and vows, sensual desire, and ill will. [2] And arahants, "with > taints destroyed, have live the holy life, done what had to be done, > laid down the burden, reached the true goal, destroyed the fetters > of being, and are completely liberated through final knowledge." [3] > > A point of discussion in the exchange is what it means by "on the > path" or "following the path." > > Specifically, a passage from MN 21 is given to show that whenever > lust, aversion, and/or delusion arises, there is no carrying out of > the Buddha's teachings, no following the path: > > > Bhikkhus, even if bandits were to sever you savagely limb by limb > with a two-handled saw, he who gave rise to a mind of hate towards > them would not be carrying out my teaching. > [4] > > It seems that we have run into a contradiction: > > For a stream-enterer or a once-returner, who has been established in > the path but has not destroyed the fetters of sensual desire and ill > will completely, if bandits were to sever him or her savagely limb > by limb with a two-handled saw, it is possible that a mind of hate > in him or her would arise towards them. Thus this stream-enterer or > once-returner would not be carrying out the Buddha's teaching and > would not be on the path. > > Or have we really? > > The contradiction only arose if we did not take right effort, a > factor of the path into consideration. For a stream-enterer or a > once-returner, the evil, unskillful/unwholesome states of ill will > and hatred could (or in a stronger sense, would) still arise in > mind. However, if it does arise, one of right effort will "generate > desire for the abandoning of the arisen evil, unwholesome > [unskillful] states" of ill will and hatred; he or she will "make an > effort, arouse energy, apply his [or her] mind, and strives." [5] > > One who gave rise to a mind of hate towards the bandits who severed > him or her savagely limb by limb with a two-handled saw is someone > who simply let the mind of hate arise without generating desire for > the abandoning of the arisen evil, unskillful/unwholesome states. > In that sense, he or she gave rise to a mind of hate towards the > bandits. In that sense, he or she was without right effort and thus > would not be carrying out the Buddha's teaching. > > In fact, the passage below that immediately follows the previous > passage > > > Herein, Bhikkhus, you should train thus: `Our minds will remain > unaffected, and we shall utter no evil words; we shall abide > compassionate for their welfare, with a mind of loving-kindness, > without inner hate. We shall abide pervading them with a mind > imbued with loving-kindness; and starting with them, we shall abide > pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with loving- > kindness, abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and > without ill will.' That is how you should train, bhikkhus. > [6] > > can be understood that the Buddha was teaching the bhikkhus to > develop with right effort the skillful/wholesome states of > equanimity ("our minds will remain unaffected), right speech ("we > shall utter no evil words") and right resolve/compassion and loving- > kindness ("we shall abide compassionate for their welfare, with a > mind of loving-kindness, without inner hate"). > > Peace, > Victor > > MLDB: The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A New > Translation of the Majjhima Nikaya, translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli > and Bhikkhu Bodhi. > > CDB: The Connected Discourses of the Buddha: A New Translation of > the Samyutta Nikaya, translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi. > > [1] MLDB, p. 34-35. > > [2] MLDB, MN 6, and MN 22. > > [3] MLDB, MN 22, p. 235. > > For a stream-enterer, the three lower fetters of > personality/identity view (sakkayaditthi), doubt, grasping of rules > and vows are destroyed. > > For a once-returner, lust, hate, and delusion are attenuated with > the destruction of the three lower fetters of personality/identity > view (sakkayaditthi), doubt, grasping of rules and vows. > > For a non-returner, all five lower fetters are destroyed. > > [4] MLDB, p. 223. > > [5] CDB, p. 1529. > > [6] MLDB, p. 223. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > Hi Dan and All, > > > > Today something interesting happened in my class that I want to > > share. > [snip] 28727 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 5:57pm Subject: Re: Views along the way -- correction No problem, James. The accept your explanation (except for the part about blaming Sarah and Jon...) and apology with no hard feeling. It's been a pleasure. Dan > I 100% assure you that I did not intentionally clip your statement in > a place where I thought it might benefit my position (not that I have > any position on this matter really). You had written a lot of > valuable information and I didn't want to clip everything, I wanted > to leave a small bit (to inspire others to find the original post and > read more perhaps), so I just picked the first pause in the first > statement. I honestly didn't plan anything (I don't pay a lot of > atention to Pali words to tell you the truth; ask Sarah, I'm allergic > to them ;-). If you want to blame anyone blame Sarah and Jon for > their strict adherence to clipping procedures. They are Clipping > Nazis! ;-)) So anyway, please accept my sincere apology. > > Metta, James 28728 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tanha and intention Dear Ben, enjoying your remarks and dialogue. See below. op 04-01-2004 22:53 schreef Benjamin Jerome op bj3682@a...: > > Jonothan Abbott wrote: > >> Satipatthana is not something to be 'done', but then that >> is true of other kusala mindstates too (in fact it's true of any >> mindstate). >> ...it's not a matter of 'paying attention', since that implies something > 'to >> be done', and also a conscious selection of the (perceived) presently >> occurring object, whereas in fact that object has fallen away long >> before it can be attended to. >> >Ben: I don't understand. Why is "doing" a problem? Nina: Let it come by conditions. When trying, when doing, there is an underlying tendency to the self who can do it all. Then we are further away from the goal. Jon spoke of , I could add: even an unnoticed selection. But this is a difficult area, needs many dialogues to be understood. Some people think: O, that is an attitude of just laziness, but that is not so. I would rather say: it requires an endlkess patience, not seeing immediate result. Listening, learning a little more, considering, and yes, developing all paramis in daily life. A lot more to say about this, see this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ > and scroll down to the 'P's. Nina. 28729 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN II 6(6) -- Kamada [James] Hi Sarah, James, Dan, op 05-01-2004 09:04 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: >> "Though the path is impassable and uneven, >>> The noble ones walk it, Kamada. >>> The ignoble ones fall down head first, >>> Right there on the uneven path, >>> But the path of the noble ones is even, >>> For the noble are even amidst the uneven." >> > D:> Could it be that the "uneven path" is the "wrong path" that the >> ignoble ones tread, while the "even path" is the "Right path" that >> the noble ones tread? The part of the commentary you cite doesn't >> comment on that. > .... > I don’t have access to any more of the commentary than the part James > quoted from BB either. (I’d be grateful if Nina or anyone else were able > to assist further in this regard). Just a few more speculations of my own > here. Nina: I looked at some old notes from my co: first a footnote reference to Devas, i, 4: Not grasped: Co refers to the samana dhammas, contentment with the requisites, it also includes not returning abuse. Co refers to satipatthana. And uneven: in the beginning panna is weak, and thus there are more dangers. Remarks: defilements are strong, but panna should know these too, and this is difficult. Panna should know all such moments, otherwise we take them for self. Nothing should be skipped. Nina. 28730 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: way of study Dear Suan, you are full of humor and good cheer. op 05-01-2004 16:41 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > By the way, Pali commentaries are formidable and very unsuitable for > those with immature Pali scholarship, so resentment of them is very > understandable. N: And you are very wise, serious and patient. No wonder since you have your psychiatrics practice, applying the Dhamma. I was so impressed by your post on study, and how understanding develops: N: How deep. Worth considering. You indicate some sound principles that are beneficial to apply in any situation where there is dialogue on Dhamma. S: N:Both parties of a dialogue need so much patience. I can learn from you, you do not have any expectations from others. Understanding that it is Dependent Origination everywhere! Wonderful. It is always special when you write something, thank you and with appreciation, Nina. 28731 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How do you practice the Paramitas and Factors of Awakening Dear Philip, I love talking about paramis, that helps me to consider them more. Never enough of them! Nina. op 05-01-2004 14:23 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > If I find a > post that I would like to ask for clarification on, is it all right > to bring it back up on to the board? 28732 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Views along the way Dear James and Dan, These are higher stages of insight that cannot be reached without having developed first the beginning stages. When there is understanding there is nothing that frightens. This higher insight just sees the disadvantages of conditioned dhammas and tends more toward nibbana, the unconditioned dhamma. This is all figurative language to bring home the disadvantage of what arises and falls away. How could there be fear at a moment of understanding? This is always accompanied by calm. Nina. op 05-01-2004 18:22 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Dan: For bhayañana? "...formations...appear to him in the form of a > great terror, as lions, tigers, leopards, bears, hyenas, spirits, > ogres, fierce bulls, savage dogs, rut-maddened wild elephants, hideous > venomous serpents, thunderbolts, charnel grounds, battlefields, > flaming coal pits, etc., appear to a timid man who wants to live in > peace." > > James: Yep, been there, done that. Actually, still there. 28733 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 11:29pm Subject: Re: What the Buddha taught Hi Jon, I appreciate your comments muchly. Some more of mine interspersed below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Herman > > H: It can be said that what a person says is what they teach. Their > sayings reflect their beliefs. But a far better indicator of what a > person believes is what they do. What a person does is a teaching of > what they believe. > > J: This is an acute observation and generally true I believe. > However, to my mind it does not hold true in the case of a perfectly > enlightened being. Can give specific instances of the Buddha's words > not matching his deeds, and what is your theory as to the reason for > the difference? The observation also does not hold true in the case of parents versus children :-) I remember often creating appearances in the hope that one of my kids would fall for the appearance. Pretending to go to sleep, fully mindful, fully hoping the little one you are lying next to takes the bait. Pretending to eat while trying to feed them, pretending to be hurt when they hit you (laughing loudly inside), pretending to accept what they say, but knowing that with their attention span the size of a louse's earhole it won't go anywhere etc etc etc. All of these deceptions would, of course, be carried out with the noblest of intentions. I'd be quite interested, purely out of interest, to see some of the examples you have in mind. > > H: ... Clearly, the Buddha is teaching, by doing, the value of > seclusion and inactivity. Is seclusion and inactivity the Dhamma? Of > course not. But seclusion and inactivity is, by the Buddha's example, > creating the opportunity for insight into the Dhamma, whether wet, > dry or otherwise to arise. > > J: Now this is something different from your opening proposition. > What you are saying here is that by observing how a person acts we > can learn how he came to be how he is. > There seem to be a number of suttas relating to how the Buddha got to where he got. From what I have gathered it came down to a determination to not budge until he had found the answers he was looking for. Seven days, whether an exact figure or indicative of some fullness of time, of seated meditation, followed by three night watches (again as above) of piercing analysis. I am not sure of what he did, but I'm pretty sure that he explained it only to folks who were doing what he was doing. > I think there is a danger in this approach. To give an obvious > illustration, it would be misguided to think we could learn how to > become wealthy or successful by observing how wealthy or successful > people act. Surely we would be better off listening to what advice > they have to pass on. As I wrote to Dan earlier on today, if the path was a way of acquiring something, what you say above makes sense. But we are travelling in an opposite direction. Advice on how to become unencumbered will never get one unencumbered. Willingness to ditch some or all of our luggage will forever remain OUR choice. (nb The willingness only) > Besides, in his discourses the Buddha frequently urged his listeners > to *listen* more, but never to *observe* him. Should we ignore this > advice? > As far as I understand, any discussion of what happened to the Buddha or how he did it was addressed to bhikkhus, not a fully- fledged world limpet like myself. For this reason, I much appreciated Victor's recent advice to Ben to seek out bhikkhus-in- the-know to get his very profound questions answered. Bhikkhus do what the Buddha did, and say what the Buddha said. As for me, I do computer network maintenance, love my family, enjoy our exchanges on the Internet, and resist all further conviction that flows from reading the texts, and doing what they suggest. All the best Herman > ;-)) > > Jon > > 28734 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 0:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: Views along the way Hi Nina (Dan), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James and Dan, > These are higher stages of insight that cannot be reached without having > developed first the beginning stages. When there is understanding there is > nothing that frightens. This higher insight just sees the disadvantages of > conditioned dhammas and tends more toward nibbana, the unconditioned dhamma. > This is all figurative language to bring home the disadvantage of what > arises and falls away. How could there be fear at a moment of understanding? > This is always accompanied by calm. > Nina. > Like I stated in my post to Dan, ultimately I will seek the advice of a bhikkhu who practices meditation. It is a little ironic to me, no offense intended, that two people who swear off meditation and don't practice it feel qualified to give advice about it to someone else. To state the obvious, there is a lot more to life than what is written in books. Frankly, at this point, and I could be wrong, I don't see how it could be possible to have `knowledge of fearfulness' and to not experience fear. I am not trying to claim that I have reached any kind of special insight, or trying to impress anyone, I have just described what I have experienced. I have experienced extreme fear during and after meditation when I begin to see more clearly the arising and falling of phenomena. It is scary, what can I say? I choose not to think I am going insane or have a mental disorder, although that is not beyond the realm of possibility. I did a little bit of research on the Internet on this subject, since meditation monks are in scant supply here in Cairo, and this is what I came across, which seems to be in contradiction to what you and Dan are stating: "Having seen how the dissolution of two things -- that is, any object noticed and the insight-thought engaged in noticing it -- takes place moment by moment, the meditator also understands by inference that in the past, too, every conditioned thing (formation) has broken up in the same way, that just so it will break up also in the future, and that at the present it breaks up, too. And just at the time of noticing any formations that are evident, these formations will appear to him in their aspect of fearfulness. Therefore, during the very act of noticing, the meditator will also come to understand: "These formations are indeed fearful." Such understanding of their fearfulness is called "knowledge of the awareness of fearfulness"; it has also the name "knowledge of fear." At that time, his mind itself is gripped by fear and seems helpless. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html#ch6.6 Please especially note the sentence: "At that time, his mind itself is gripped by fear and seems helpless." That is a pretty good description for what I experience quite often nowadays when I meditate. I am not calm, looking at the arising and falling phenomena, and thinking "Oh, this would be fearful to someone else but not to me because I have no self." I don't even think that would be possible, but I could be wrong. Metta, James 28735 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 2:48am Subject: To the foot of a tree ... Dear Group, I arrived home from work this evening, settled down at the computer to read Herman's post (28716) and suddenly there was a power failure. Not a cloud in the sky, no strong wind. no rain - but a compete electricity shutdown for about 30 sq. kms. What to do .. it was still daylight (only 6 p.m.) so, after getting out the matches,candles and torch in case it lasted a few hours, I went to sit outside, at the foot of a tree, and read some dhamma. Cicadas went 'off duty' and crickets started their evening chorale, iridescent flocks of parrots flashed screaming overhead, a gentle breeze was blowing after a hot day, I was content. I didn't notice anything until it happened. A dozen hot jabs all over my feet. I dropped the book, leapt out of the chair, and realised I'd been ambushed by a scavenging party of meat ants. And I wasn't even dead yet. The worst thing was that I had stockings on and a few of the little "darlings" had somehow got inside them before the general signal to attack was broadcast, that made them all bite at once. Shoes were kicked off, modesty went a.w.o.l., stockings stripped off and shaken, but, miraculously, I remembered not to harm them. Were there ants at 'the foot of a tree' in N. India 2600 years ago? And, if so, what did the monks of old do? I mean, a tiger or a lion is avoidable, snakes are a little harder ... but how do you ant-proof yourself? (Metta doesn't seem to work). Bhikkhuni Soma: "Having gone deep into the Grove of the Blind, she sat down at the foot of a tree for the day's abiding." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn05-002.html Ven. Bhaddiya Kaligodha: "going to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, would repeatedly exclaim, "What bliss! What bliss!" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud2-10.html Ven. Girimananda: "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- reflects thus.." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-060.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28736 From: Philip Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 2:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: How do you practice the Paramitas and Factors of Awakening Thank you, Sarah. I'll now retreat for the time being to the archives and Nina's book to school myself on some fundamentals! With Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Hi Philip, > May I butt in and say that would be great. Any post or thread from the > archives is always open for further discussion. > > On the Paramis (Perfections), please also take a look at Nina's clear book > and read about as few or many of them as you like. Again, she and others > would be glad to give further clarification or comments: > http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm > > It's good to hear of your interest. We'll look forward to the posts you > bring up with interest;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > > 28737 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 3:55am Subject: Re: vitakka and vicára Dear Jeff, it's been nice to be in Jhana. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey S. Brooks" wrote: > Thank-you Htoo Naing, it seems you and I have won the field, and now > we may retire to our jhana. > > Best regards, > > Jeff Brooks > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Jeff, > > > > What a good question that you made. Yes this matter need to be > > clarified. That translation as thoughts are not enough for Vitakka > > and Vicara. But when Cetasikas are studied in detail this matter will > > become clear. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > <........> 28738 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 6:58am Subject: Re: Views along the way -- correction Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > No problem, James. The accept your explanation (except for the part > about blaming Sarah and Jon...) and apology with no hard feeling. > > It's been a pleasure. > > Dan Thanks Dan (and the part about blaming Sarah and Jon was a joke. That is why I put the little 'winky face' ;-). Metta, James 28739 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 7:33am Subject: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Dear Nina, Michael B and all How are you? Happy New Year to Nina! Nina, thank you for your kind remarks on my linking of understanding with Dependent Origination. Michael wrote: "Pannatti is that which is subjective, in accordance with conventions, or in other words the opposite of real." The terms "subjective" and "objective" should be handled very judiciously as they have gathered speculative philosophical dusts in the Western literature for a long time. At this stage, I do not intend to engage in comparative discussion between Theravada uses of the terms "paññatti" and "paramattha" and Western intellectual uses of the terms "subjective" and "objective". As the Theravada terms "paññatti" and "paramattha" themselves are already causing you (and everybody else on this list?) enough confusion and trouble, it would be far better for you to focus on understanding those terms the way Theravada thinkers do. It is also worth remembering that Theravada thinkers have been using and understanding the terms "paññatti" and "paramattha" the old way for over two and a half millenniums of years. Therefore, we too can understand the terms "paññatti" and "paramattha" without needing to use the terms "subjective" and "objective". Michael also asked: "One could also say that pannatti is not real? If paramatha is real and pannatti is the opposite of paramatha then it makes sense to assume that pannatti is not real. Is that how you would define it?" What I did define is as follows: "Coventional truth is truth by convention, or truth through the processes of naming or labeling. Real or actual truth is truth by observation, experience, or experiment." Michael, I noticed that you kept describing paññatti as the opposite of paramattha. By doing that, do you realize that what you did was amounting to making a phenomenon conflict with its name? If we use the previous example in my last post, through observation and experiencing, we discover the phenomenon anger and name it "anger". The paramattha anger is the phenomenon for observation while the paññatti anger is a linguistic device for verbalization. Thus, the paññatti anger is merely a linguistic device for verbalization of the paramattha anger. I do not see the benefit in polarizing a paramattha phenomenon and its paññatti name. Of course, there are also paññatti labels for illusions and imaginary things such as the Creator, self, being and the like. We might call this types of paññatti baseless paññatti. A baseless paññatti is a mere name without a supporting phenomenon. Michael also asked: "Now, can you please elaborate a little bit more, in accordance with your understanding, about what are the qualities that makes a phenomena `exist objectively, to have actual existence or reality'." If you recall what I wrote about the paramattha anger in my last post, it is as follows: "However, the phenomenon anger is a paramattha because it can actually arise in us when we are provoked, for example. Here, please remember that anger is an emergent phenomenon that can arise only when there are relevant conditions such as provocations or insult and injury. And when those relevant conditions disappear, anger also DISAPPEARS." Thus, the qualities that make something a paramattha phenomenon is 1. emergence when there are relevant conditions. 2. total disappearance when those relevant conditions disappear. Please also note that I describe anger as a phenomenon that emerges, instead of stating that anger "has" a real existence as though it were a container that contains something. I hope that I have answered your questions without implicating the terms "subjective" and "objective". With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: Hello Suan, Thank you for your rather comprehensive explanation. There is a point though that I would appreciate to have some additional clarifications. You define paramatha as `real or actual phenomena or truth.' < snip> Metta Michael 28740 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 8:31am Subject: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, When the serious meditator is trying to concentrate on his breath or at some point in his body, he may fail to do so. He may miss recognizing his body positions. He may go on meditate without full understanding of what are hapening inside and around him. This has to happen because of the characteristic of Tanha or craving. This is human character. We have been looking for what we want since we were born. Even though we did not understand fully what were happening at our own birth, we had to cry because we were looking for breath cravingly. The first breath was gone. There was a sudden change and this could not resist and we had to cry. Then still for a while. Next cry came when there was something which was in need. That crying baby was satisfied with his mom's breast-feed. We were moved here and there and as the environment changed, we had to cry because of difference in the temperature and so on. This again was satisfied by wrapping and so on. Throughout maturition, we have learned to look for things that we want cravingly. Before the age of 7 this happens in nearly all children. If a special maturition does not arise, this will go on and on and clinging binds us with sensual things all the time. This effect of craving and clinging is carried along all the time unnoticed. When we experienced our mind and its hostility at our first meditation activity, we could not resist the movement of the mind as it is looking for the things it wants cravingly. So, not getting the right concentration at earlier attempts is quite understandable. However, we need to fight against this powerful mental enemy ' craving '. When in sitting in meditation, beginners may find their mind frequently follows sensual pleasure. This is the habit of our own mind. It has to be tamed well through Bhavana or mental cultivation. Sometimes quite a wild mind arises through sensual thinking. To tranquilize down these thoughts, we have to contemplate on our own body. When we contemplate on our own body, watching of breath, watching of body position, watching of all activities have to be suspended for a while. There are different ways of contemplation on our own body. May you all practise Kayanupassana Satipatthana ( contemplation on body ). With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing JourneyToNibbana Yahoo Group htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@g... 28741 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 9:01am Subject: Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Dear Suan, Thanks for your post casting a good light on Pannatti anger and Paramattha anger. Objective and subjective may possibly work for the job of Paramattha and Pannatti. Thanks again for your input here. Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Nina, Michael B and all > > How are you? Happy New Year to Nina! > > Nina, thank you for your kind remarks on my linking of understanding > with Dependent Origination. > > Michael wrote: > > "Pannatti is that which is subjective, in accordance with > conventions, or in other words the opposite of real." > > The terms "subjective" and "objective" should be handled very > judiciously as they have gathered speculative philosophical dusts in > the Western literature for a long time. > > At this stage, I do not intend to engage in comparative discussion > between Theravada uses of the terms "paññatti" and "paramattha" and > Western intellectual uses of the terms "subjective" and "objective". > > As the Theravada terms "paññatti" and "paramattha" themselves are > already causing you (and everybody else on this list?) enough > confusion and trouble, it would be far better for you to focus on > understanding those terms the way Theravada thinkers do. > > It is also worth remembering that Theravada thinkers have been using > and understanding the terms "paññatti" and "paramattha" the old way > for over two and a half millenniums of years. > > Therefore, we too can understand the terms "paññatti" and > "paramattha" without needing to use the terms "subjective" > and "objective". > > Michael also asked: > > "One could also say that pannatti is not real? If paramatha is real > and pannatti is the opposite of paramatha then it makes sense to > assume that pannatti is not real. Is that how you would define it?" > > What I did define is as follows: > > "Coventional truth is truth by convention, or truth through the > processes of naming or labeling. > > Real or actual truth is truth by observation, experience, or > experiment." > > Michael, I noticed that you kept describing paññatti as the opposite > of paramattha. By doing that, do you realize that what you did was > amounting to making a phenomenon conflict with its name? > > If we use the previous example in my last post, through observation > and experiencing, we discover the phenomenon anger and name > it "anger". > > The paramattha anger is the phenomenon for observation while the > paññatti anger is a linguistic device for verbalization. > > Thus, the paññatti anger is merely a linguistic device for > verbalization of the paramattha anger. > > I do not see the benefit in polarizing a paramattha phenomenon and > its paññatti name. > > Of course, there are also paññatti labels for illusions and imaginary > things such as the Creator, self, being and the like. We might call > this types of paññatti baseless paññatti. > > A baseless paññatti is a mere name without a supporting phenomenon. > > > Michael also asked: > > "Now, can you please elaborate a little bit more, in accordance with > your understanding, about what are the qualities that makes a > phenomena `exist objectively, to have actual existence or reality'." > > If you recall what I wrote about the paramattha anger in my last post, > it is as follows: > > "However, the phenomenon anger is a paramattha because it can > actually arise in us when we are provoked, for example. Here, please > remember that anger is an emergent phenomenon that can arise only > when there are relevant conditions such as provocations or insult and > injury. > > And when those relevant conditions disappear, anger also DISAPPEARS." > > Thus, the qualities that make something a paramattha phenomenon is > > 1. emergence when there are relevant conditions. > 2. total disappearance when those relevant conditions disappear. > > Please also note that I describe anger as a phenomenon that emerges, > instead of stating that anger "has" a real existence as though it > were a container that contains something. > > I hope that I have answered your questions without implicating the > terms "subjective" and "objective". > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > http://www.bodhiology.org > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > wrote: > > > Hello Suan, > > Thank you for your rather comprehensive explanation. There is a point > though > that I would appreciate to have some additional clarifications. You > define > paramatha as `real or actual phenomena or truth.' > > < snip> > > > Metta > Michael 28742 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 10:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Single Excellent Night - and Year Dear Andrew, Thank you for this post. It gives opportunity for more reflection after I answered you last time: You said before: Today Lodewijk and I talked about "Let not a person revive the past > Or on the future build his hopes.... An excellent reminder for insight but what a daily struggle to apply the Dhamma. During our walk Lodewijk and I were speaking about our different accumulations. Lodewijk said that he is always inclined to worry over the future, it causes his nightmares (although after our discussions he dreamt about dosa and how uncontrollable it is). I dwell on the past, what have I done, what did the other person say to me etc. We spoke about clinging to the self at the root of our problems, and expectations we have from others. We may think that we have understood this, but takes time to be really convinced of this truth. We concluded that we cannot change our accumulations (not until enlightenment) but that these should be studied with sati. My life would be very chaotic if I would only think in conventional terms and be without the precision of the Abhidhamma. What a salad of feelings we have, what delusion about the real motives of what we think, of our deeds and speech. We are such a mixture of kusala and akusala, cittas are so fast and without panna we do not know correctly what is what. The Abhidhamma is most helpful, clearly showing cause and effect. The Abhidhamma helps to know our real motives, to detect banner conceit (thanks Herman). The Abhidhamma has to be together with satipatthana, we have to realize that the Abhidhamma is not theory. As Iggleden said in his Intro to the Book of Analysis: So, I would like to add: we should not try to change any of those evil, bad states when they appear, they have arisen already. They are unpleasant, but they are our study material. We should get to know them, they are so real. That is satipatthana in daily life, and that is what we discuss during Dhamma discussions in Thailand. This pertains to the development of the perfection of truthfulness. A friend had a great loss, death of her husband. Lodewijk also said that we cannot prepare for such a loss, but that we can continue to study and consider the Dhamma little by little. To conclude: op 31-12-2003 23:42 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: I note in particular > it refers to insight seeing presently arisen states correctly. N: That is the essence, but in the beginning there will be mostly moments of thinking. That is all right too, as said, we do not change any reality, face it as it is. When it is thinking, OK, when it is worry, OK, when it is attachment, OK. When we realize that we only have theoretical understanding of the truth of: there is no other person, no me, and that we therefore get into trouble all the time, a sense of urgency can naturally grow. A sense of urgency to develop insight now. We can learn in daily life that there is Dependent Origination everywhere, as Suan remarked. We are in the cycle according to conditions. But there is a way out of it. Nina. Bhaddekaratta Sutta: > "Let not a person revive the past > Or on the future build his hopes; > For the past has been left behind > And the future has not been reached. > Instead with insight let him see > Each presently arisen state; Nina. 28743 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 10:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 60 (1 of 4)cittas as elements Dear Larry and all, It may be of use to compare with A.D.L. Ch 18. It is very important to remember when studying the old texts. I want to add: The mind element: cittas experiencing object through five doors, thus, these only arise in five sense-door processes. It includes five-door adverting-consciousness, and the two types of receiving-consciousness(one kusala vipaka, one akusala vipaka). manovinñána-dhátu: 'mind-consciousness element: all cittas, except the five sense-cognitions and the three kinds of cittas classified as mind-element. It includes cittas experiencing an object through six doors as well as door-freed cittas, cittas not arising in processes, namely, rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga-cittas, dying-consciousness. The five sense-cognitions are pa~nca-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu, five-consciousness element. Thus we have: pa~nca-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu mano-dhaatu, mind element mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu, mind-consciousness element. op 06-01-2004 01:28 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi all, > > Here are some definitions of "mind element" and "mind-consciousness > element" from Nyanatiloa's "Buddhist Dictionary" > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm > > mano-dhátu: 'mind-element', is one of the 18 elements (s. dhátu II). > This term, unlike manáyatana, does not apply to the whole of > consciousness, but designates only that special element of consciousness > which first, at the beginning of the process of sense-perception, > performs the function of advertence (ávajjana; Tab. I, 70) to the > sense-object and, then after twice having become conscious of it > performs the function of reception (sampaticchana; Tab I- 39,.55) into > mind-consciousness. See viññána-kicca. > > manovinñána-dhátu: 'mind-consciousness element', one of the 18 > 'elements' (s. dhátu II). This term is generally used as a name for > that consciousness-element which performs the functions of investigation > (santírana), determining (votthapana), registering (tadárammana), > etc. See Tab. I, 40, 41, 56, 71, 72. > 28744 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 10:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 60 (1 of 4), heartbase 1. Dear Larry and all, elaboration: op 06-01-2004 01:18 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 60. 13. The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the > (material) support for the mind-element and for the > mind-consciousness-element. Its function is to observe them. N: to observe: the Pali has: aadhaarana: the meaning is: being a container, foundation, support, holding up. In the five khandha planes where there are nama and rupa, cittas need a physical base, foundation. They do not arise independently of the body. The five sense-cognitions have the sense bases as physical support, and all the other cittas, namely, mind-element and the mind-consciousness-element (see explanation in the other post) have as support what is called the heartbase, an infinitely tiny rupa arising and falling away. Text: It is manifested as the carrying of them. It is to be found in dependence on > the blood, of the kind described in the treatise on the mindfulness of > the body (Ch. VIII, 111), inside the heart. N: let us first look at the footnote : text: Vism. VIII, 111. This is the heart flesh. As to colour, it is the colour > of the back of a red-lotus petal. As to shape, it is the shape of a > lotus bud with the outer petals removed and turned upside down; it is > smooth outside, and inside it is like the interior of a kosataki (loofah > gourd). In those who possess understanding it is a little expanded; in > those without understanding it is still only a bud. Inside it there is a > hollow the size of a punnaga seed's bed where half a pasata measure of > blood is kept, with which as their support the mind element and > mind-consciousness element occur. N: We have to go back in time centuries and centuries and consider with patience what is meant. What was the intention of the commentators? To see the heartbase as not worth clinging to, not beautiful. It is only the tiniest element performing a function. The last sentence is the core: The reality of that base is expressed by means of conventional terms to help people at that time to understand it correctly. We should not reject the terms used here, but cconsider what is really essential. Blood, inside the heart: we have to understand the rupa dhamma these words stand for. That is what really matters. Returning to Vis. Text:< It is assisted by the primaries with their functions of upholding, etc.> N: It arises from the first moment of life in a decad: the four Great Elements: solidity (earth) as a foundation, cohesion (water) as holding together (preventing falling apart of the conascent rupas), heat (fire) as maturing or maintaining and motion (wind) as distending (resilience). Text: it is consolidated by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is maintained by life; N: So long as we are alive cittas arise, and each citta supports the previously arisen rupas. U. Narada, Conditional Relations: postnascence condition: < Mentality possesses such powerful force that, although it depends on the heart-base,( which is dependent on the blood inside the heart that is a very small part of the body), it is related to the matter produced by the four causes present in the whole body by postnascence condition.> > it serves as physical basis for the mind-element and the > mind-consciousness-element, and for the states associated with them. Nutriment and life: nutriment is one of the eight inseparable rupas arising in each unit of rupa. Not mentioned here but implied: flavour, odour and colour, included in these eight. It is maintained by life: since heartbase is produced only by kamma, there has to be in that unit: life-faculty. As we saw: it maintains kamma produced matter, as a wetnurse. Nina. 28745 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 10:57am Subject: RE: [dsg] Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hello Suan, Suan: As the Theravada terms "paññatti" and "paramattha" themselves are already causing you (and everybody else on this list?) enough confusion and trouble, it would be far better for you to focus on understanding those terms the way Theravada thinkers do. It is also worth remembering that Theravada thinkers have been using and understanding the terms "paññatti" and "paramattha" the old way for over two and a half millenniums of years. Michael: This is exactly what I am trying to get. What is the understanding of those terms by the ancient Theravada thinkers. But I am sorry to say that I still don’t have a fully clear picture and therefore ask your patience for insisting on this topic. Your definition that ‘Real or actual truth is truth by observation, experience, or experiment’ sounds more like a method than a definition of the truth. Through observation, experience or experiment one may realize the truth but that does not explain what the truth is. So your definition is not very helpful in that respect. Suan: Michael, I noticed that you kept describing paññatti as the opposite of paramattha. By doing that, do you realize that what you did was amounting to making a phenomenon conflict with its name? Of course, there are also paññatti labels for illusions and imaginary things such as the Creator, self, being and the like. We might call this types of paññatti baseless paññatti. Michael: When I opposed paramatha to paññatti I was thinking along the lines of your second paragraph above. So, you are confirming that paññatti also designates things that do not exist. Because illusions or imaginary things do not exist. So paññatti is a mixture of names for things that truly exist (paramattha dhammas) and things that do not exist (illusions and imaginary things). Is this fair? Do you agree that the view of the theravada thinkers is that paramatha dhammas truly exist? What makes a thing really exist according to the ancients? Suan: A baseless paññatti is a mere name without a supporting phenomenon. Michael: But a being: a man, woman, child, animal, etc. can be ‘observed, experienced.’ Therefore it must be true. You see how your definition above of what is truth is inadequate. Suan: Thus, the qualities that make something a paramattha phenomenon is: 1. emergence when there are relevant conditions. 2. total disappearance when those relevant conditions disappear. Michael: But exactly the same can be said of a being. A being arises if the conditions are right and disappears when those conditions cease. But a being is not a paramattha phenomenon. It seems that those qualities are not enough to explain what is a paramatha phenomenon. Sorry to say that the veil of confusion in relation to the thinking of the ancient Theravada thinkers has not dissipated. But maybe as you suggested it is not just me. Maybe I am in good company. Metta Michael 28746 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 11:18am Subject: Karunadasa - "Time and Space: The Abhidhamma perspective" Dear Group, You may be interested in reading: "Time and space: The Abhidhamma perspective" The following is the Professor K. N. Jayatilleke Memorial Lecture 2003 by Y. Karunadasa, former director, Postgraduate Institute of Pali and Buddhist Studies. http://www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28747 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 0:17pm Subject: Two to tango (was Re: Contraception and the First Precept) Hiya Herman, and all, Herman: I would like to persevere with some of this. Fear not :-) Christine: Fear is just a four letter word, :-) and Fortes Fortuna Adiuvat - Fortune favours the brave. (So they tell me). ======================== Herman: It is my understanding that intentions and actions come about precisely because judgements are being made. Judgements proceeding from wrong view lead to wrong intention to wrong action, judgements proceeding from right view lead to right intention to right action, and no judgement leads to no intention to no action. Quite happy to be corrected (or denounced), by the way :-) Christine: Do things happen that way though? They are the first three steps of The Noble Eightfold Path. The NEP is a description of the Path to be followed to the end of suffering (some discussion on what is Path on another thread). It is the Paticcasamuppada sequence which describes the conditionality and dependent nature of all physical and psychical phenomena. i.e. the 'order' of happening - Ignorance (avijja) condtions Volitional Activities (sankhara) - and sankhara are the kamma-formations or rebirth-producing volitions. Imasmim sati idam hoti: When there is this, that is. Imasuppada idam upajjati: With the arising of this, that arises. Imasmim asati idam na hoti: When this is not, neither is that. Imassa nirodha idam nirujjhati: With the cessation of this, that ceases. [S.II.28,65] ==================== Herman: The initial activity proceeds from the initial opinion, belief, judgement. How one dresses it up afterwards will not alter the initial activity. But I really wonder how kamma can play a role for one who suspends judgement? Christine: Good question. Suspending judgment would be living uncontaminated by ignorance/craving, comment/interpretation, identification/label, no? How would we live our daily life? Is it possible to choose to suspend judgement or has judging happened before we are even aware of it? Isn't there no control, no free- will? :-) :-) Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28748 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 1:10pm Subject: Lifespan of Devas Dear Group, How old is an old deva? Depends .. "Kingship over human beings is a meager thing when compared with heavenly bliss. "Fifty human years are equal to one day & night among the Devas of the Four Great Kings. Thirty such days & nights make a month. Twelve such months make a year. Five hundred such heavenly years constitute the life-span among the Devas of the Four Great Kings. Now, it is possible that a certain man or woman -- from having observed this Uposatha endowed with eight factors -- on the break-up of the body, after death, might be reborn among the Devas of the Four Great Kings. It was in reference to this that it was said, 'Kingship over human beings is a meager thing when compared with heavenly bliss.' "A human century is equal to one day & night among the Devas of the Thirty-Three. Thirty such days & nights make a month... One thousand such heavenly years constitute the life-span among the Devas of the Thirty-three. Now, it is possible that a certain man or woman -- from having observed this Uposatha endowed with eight factors -- on the break-up of the body, after death, might be reborn among the Devas of the Thirty-three. It was in reference to this that it was said, 'Kingship over human beings is a meager thing when compared with heavenly bliss.' "Two human centuries are equal to one day & night among the Yama Devas... Two thousand such heavenly years constitute the life-span among the Yama Devas... "Four human centuries are equal to one day & night among the Contented Devas... Four thousand such heavenly years constitute the life-span among the Contented Devas... "Eight human centuries is equal to one day & night among the devas who delight in creation... Eight thousand such heavenly years constitute the life-span among the devas who delight in creation... "Sixteen human centuries are equal to one day & night among the devas who have power over the creations of others. Thirty such days & nights make a month. Twelve such months make a year. Sixteen thousand such heavenly years constitute the life-span among the devas who have power over the creations of others. Now, it is possible that a certain man or woman -- from having observed this Uposatha endowed with eight factors -- on the break-up of the body, after death, might be reborn among the devas who have power over the creations of others. It was in reference to this that it was said, 'Kingship over human beings is a meager thing when compared with heavenly bliss.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-070.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28749 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 1:56pm Subject: Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hi Suan and everybody, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > What I did define is as follows: > > "Coventional truth is truth by convention, or truth through the > processes of naming or labeling. > > Real or actual truth is truth by observation, experience, or > experiment." > > Michael, I noticed that you kept describing paññatti as the opposite > of paramattha. By doing that, do you realize that what you did was > amounting to making a phenomenon conflict with its name? > > If we use the previous example in my last post, through observation > and experiencing, we discover the phenomenon anger and name > it "anger". > > The paramattha anger is the phenomenon for observation while the > paññatti anger is a linguistic device for verbalization. > I think this is very good and clear, but then there is always a but, isn't there :-) But...... The problem that has arisen is that certain schools of thought have then taken an experience, say anger, that is experienced and undoubted by everyone, and scholastically subdivided it until there is supposed to be an irreducible "unit" of anger. It is then claimed that only awareness of this irreducible unit of anger can be a basis for insight, and that what every man and woman in the street experiences as anger is really a gross hotch-potch that has lots of other irreducible "units" of other stuff mixed in with it. It is clear to me that anger as an irreducible is arrived at by way of thinking and is thus a concept (not experiencable). There is no way of experiencing whether one is experiencing the one true indivisible anger, or is still dealing with a 2 unit, 17 unit or whatever unit compounded experience. To make claims about the irreducibility of an observation is to be ignorant of the fact that the resolution of an observation is entirely dependent on the quality of the equipment used. And who is going to say they have the ultimate equipment? All the best Herman 28750 From: Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 9:14am Subject: Karunadasa - "Time and Space: The Abhidhamma perspective" Hi, Christine - So far I've read only about one-fifth of the way through this article, and I've got to say that I am *very* excited by it!! I find myself reading my own thoughts, many of which I have expressed on-list many times!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28751 From: Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 9:48am Subject: Re: Karunadasa - "Time and Space: The Abhidhamma perspective" Hi again, Christine - I've now read the whole article, though somewhat quickly. I still think it's an excellent piece of work, but I evaluate his treatment of space as a less-than-successful attempt at having his cake and eating it too! He tries mightily to portray space as merely conceptual in Abhidhamma even though it is given there as a rupa. Points awarded for effort!! ;-)) With metta, Howard P.S. I promise not to post jointly on this to the two lists any further, but to reply on a list only to posts that came from that list. I've posted jointly so far on this article - but no more, I promise, Sarah & Jon. I've done so because Christine was kind enough to give this great article to both lists, and I thought I might express my opinion on both lists. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28752 From: Andrew Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 3:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Single Excellent Night - and Year --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > What a salad of feelings we > have, what delusion about the real motives of what we think, of our deeds > and speech. We are such a mixture of kusala and akusala, cittas are so fast > and without panna we do not know correctly what is what. ...> As Iggleden said in his Intro to the Book of Analysis: > existence of which he had previously be unaware, with the purpose of finding > out and understanding the motive underlying those thoughts. Behaviour which > he had once thought to be quite proper he will find to have a twisted or > corrupted motive. Dear Nina Thank you for your reflections on reviving the past. I found the above to be very interesting as I find myself more and more examining my thoughts. And yes, they mostly seem to have twisted and corrupted motives. It is strange to reflect on what petty and self-deceiving creatures we are. I help care for Sandra's father who is 89 years old and bedridden with only 30% lung function. The other day, I decided to go into his room and check on him. Before I reached his room, I realised that one of the main things driving me was lobha - a desire to help myself to a lolly from his lolly jar! Quite shocked at this, I deliberately avoided touching the lolly jar. I think it is easy to get depressed and morose about "oneself" when one starts to take a hard look at what's going on in the mind. I find, however, that Abhidhamma stops me from getting depressed about it. Cittas arise and fall so quickly, I realise that there probably were cittas of compassion arising and falling away before those strongly affected by lobha came into play. And it comforts me to think :"okay, it's not easy but at least I'm trying to be honest about the human condition." As you say, it's all good study material. Metta Andrew 28753 From: Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 3:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 60 (1 of 4)cittas as elements Hi Nina, Thanks for all this extra material. I will go ahead and post the footnote in three parts over three days, then pause to give people time to consider. It's a little difficult to follow at first but if we read it slowly and carefully there's no problem. People might want to save all four parts to refer one to another. Larry 28754 From: Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 4:14pm Subject: Vism.XIV 60 (2 of 4) "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, paragraph 60 Note 26. ' "The heart-basis ... the support for the mind-element and for the mind-consciousness element"; how is that to be known? (i) From scriptures and (ii) from logical reasoning. 'The scripture is this: "The materiality dependent on which the mind-element and mind-consciousness-element occur is a condition, as a support condition, for the mind-element and the mind-consciousness-element and what is associated therewith" (P.tn. 1,4). If that is so, why is it not mentioned in the Ruupaka.n.da of the Dhammasa.nga.ni (Dhs.583ff.)? Its not being mentioned there is for another reason. What is that? Non-inconsistency of the teaching. For while eye-consciousness, etc., have the eye, etc., as their respective supports absolutely, mind-consciousness does not in the same way have the heart-basis as its support absolutely. And the teaching in the material-basis dyad (vatthu-duka) is given by way of the material support thus, "There is matter that is the physical basis of eye-consciousness, there is matter that is not the physical basis of eye-consciousness" (Dhs. 585) and so on; and if the dyads were stated by way of what had the heart-basis absolutely as its support thus, "There is matter that is the physical basis of mind-consciousness" and so on, then the object dyads (aaramma.na-duka) do not fall into line: for one cannot say: "There is matter that is the object of mind-consciousness, there is matter that is not the object of mind-consciousness". So the physical-basis dyads and object dyads being thus made inconsistent, the teaching would lack unity. That is why the heart-basis is not mentioned, not because it is unapprehendable. [to be continued] ---------------------- Vism XIV 60. 13. The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the (material) support for the mind-element and for the mind-consciousness-element. Its function is to observe them. It is manifested as the carrying of them. It is to be found in dependence on the blood, of the kind described in the treatise on the mindfulness of the body (Ch. VIII, 111), inside the heart. It is assisted by the primaries with their functions of upholding, etc.; it is consolidated by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is maintained by life; and it serves as physical basis for the mind-element and the mind-consciousness-element, and for the states associated with them.26 28755 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Dear Suan, I like your clear and concise explanation about "paññatti" and "paramattha". Nina. op 06-01-2004 16:33 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > It is also worth remembering that Theravada thinkers have been using > and understanding the terms "paññatti" and "paramattha" the old way > for over two and a half millenniums of years. 28756 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 11:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paññatti_VS_Paramattha:_To_Nina,_Mike_B_And_Ken_O Dear Suan, Michael & All, --- abhidhammika wrote: > > How are you? Happy New Year to Sarah. .... Thanks, Suan. To you also. It’s good to see your helpful explanations. ... Suan:> As for the directions regarding Kathaavatthu, please read Sarah's > kind posting of excerpts of translation. ... Thanks for this encouragement too. Kathaavatthu, (PTS Points of Controversy), Book 1, 1 The Eight Refutations. The First Refutation, 1) The fivefold Affirmative Presentation [I gave the commentary summary last time] “Theravadin - Is ‘the person’ known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact? Puggalavadin - Yes Th - Is the person known ‘in the same way’ as a real and ultimate fact is known? P - Nay, that cannot truly be said. Th - Acknowledge your refutation: i) If the person be known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact, then indeed, good sir, you should also say, the person is known in the same way as [any other] real and ultimate fact [is known]. ii) that which you say here is wrong, namely, 1) that we ought to say, ‘the person is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact,’ but 2) we ought not to say, the person is known in the same way as [any other] real and ultimate fact [is known]. iii) If the latter statement 2) cannot be admitted, then indeed the former statement 1) should not be admitted. iv) In affirming the former statement 1), while v) denying the latter 2), you are wrong. ***** Suan:> Sarah, please continue posting of those translations for all to read. ... Let’s see if anyone else would like any more;-) .... Suan:>neo- > Rhys-Davidsites, notably, Dr Peter Masefiled, and Professor Peter > Harvey. And those neo-Rhys-Davidsites got away only by translating > Suttam Pali passages inaccurately, which can, of course, be due to > their honest immature Pali scholarship as well. .... In fairness, I think I should mention how grateful I am for translations by the Rhys-Davids and Masefield. While Mrs R-D’s translations leave much to be desired (!), for those of us without your Pali expertise, for a long time they were our only means of access to texts like some of Samyutta Nikaya and the Dhammasangani. Even this translation of the Katthaavatthu is a joint translation by Mrs R-D and Shwe Zan Aung with the prefatory notes by Mrs R-D. I think Shwe Zan Aung’s collaboration in the final product is very valuable! As for Masefield’s translations, such as the Udana and commentary, Vimana stories and commentary and so on, these are some of the very best, imho, especially as he gives a lot of helpful Pali detail. I appreciate that you are referring to personal interpretations and so on which may be apparent in other texts and notes and terms used. I’m sure we'd agree in this regard. I’m really only familiar with the translations. Metta, Sarah p.s Michael, for the various kinds of pannattis (concepts) and more details, see below: http://www.abhidhamma.org/sujin3.htm The Abhidhammattha Vibhavani (Book 8) distinguishes between six kinds of concepts that are names, nama-pannatti (see Visuddhimagga VIII, note 11). 1. Vijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what is real, for example the words rupa, nama, vedana (feeling), or sanna (perception) 10. 2. Avijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner. These concepts do not represent absolute realities, citta and cetasika which are nama, and rupa. Thai or foreigner are not real in the absolute sense, they are conventional realities, sammutti dhammas. Could akusala citta11 (unwholesome consciousness) be Thai or foreign? Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a reality), it is a dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is not Thai or foreign. 3. Vijjamanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of the non-existent based on the existent. There is the expression "the person with the six abhinnas."12 The six abhinnas are real but person is not real. Thus this concept stands for what is real and for what is not real. 4. Avijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of the existent based on the non-existent. There is the expression "woman's voice". The sound is real, but the woman is not real. 5. Vijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of what is real based on what is real. There is the term cakkhu-vinnana (eye-consciousness). Cakkhu (eye) is a reality, namely the cakkhu-pasada-rupa (eyesense, a reality sensitive to colour or visible object), and vinnana (consciousness) is also a reality, namely the reality which experiences. 6. Avija amanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of what is not real based on what is not real. There is the expression "the kings son". Both king and son are not real, they are sammutti dhammas, conventional realities. ***** 28757 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 0:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:_Paññatti_VS_Paramattha:_To_Nina,_Mike_B_And_Ken_O Hi Herman > And who is going to say they have the ultimate equipment? > k: Budhha ;-) kind regards Ken O 28758 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 0:43am Subject: What a person does...... (was:Contraception and the First Precept) Hi Herman & All, --- Egberdina wrote: Thanks for the other comments and quotes. I’d like to continue to discuss ‘appearances’ as this topic seems to be a hobby horse for both of us. More like a stuck record/MP3 (do they stick??), in my case. In another post (to Jon), you wrote: H: It can be said that what a person says is what they teach. Their sayings reflect their beliefs. But a far better indicator of what a person believes is what they do. What a person does is a teaching of what they believe. ..... I’ve quoted from suttas which suggest we should judge by outer appearances and actions, eg AN, 6s, 123 ‘Don’t Judge Others!’ and the one you gave from Udana 1 about Ven Sangamaji. http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/udn/udn1.htm Here, I think, you give another helpful example which clearly shows how even bhikkhus seeing and listening to the Buddha were unable to recogize an arhant: H: > As to the question of following precepts, the Udana provides a very > counter-intuitive example. Udana 3.6 tells of a monk who was in the > habit of reviling other monks and calling them outcasts. This was > brought to the attention of the Buddha who found no fault in the > bahaviour, but exclaimed > > "From whom no deceit or pride proceeds, > In whom avarice is annihilated, > Who has got rid of the notion 'this is mine', > Who is passionless and has put away wrath, > Who is freed from all cares, > That Bhikkhu is a Brahmana and a Samana." .... The commentary adds lots of extra detail. ‘A good many monks: many monks; when they saw the elder treating them in that way, they thought that that elder seemed to be one bearing hatred in that he treated them thus, not knowing that, though already an arahant, he made such proclamations on account of impressions not abandoned...’ The Buddha said: “This one treats (the monks) in hat way owing to former habitual practice on his part; his harsh speech is not intentional”. And later, “Monks, it is not as one bearing hatred, with hatred in his heart, with a heart polluted by hatred, by ill will, that this Vaccha treats the monks to talk (reserved) for outcastes; his ill will has been completely rooted out by the path itself. He says “For (the monk) Vacha, monks” and so on, thus indicating that the reason for his treating (them) in that way, despite the fact that he is not bearing hatred, stems from former births” Also, “But what is this that is known as impressions? They say that that which, even in the continuity of one in whom the defilements are wanting, is the mere capacity, built up by defilements cultivated from time without beginning, to constitute the root-cause of conduct similar to conduct on the part of those in whom the defilements have not been abandoned, is a disposition of such a kind. “ The commentary continues to add that the only exception to this rule is the Buddha himself, in whose case the continuity of habitual tendencies from previous defilements disappear, ‘due to which the Tathagata is alone one whose knowledge and vision are without obstruction.’ .... H:> All the best to you, Sarah, and Jon, and keep up the great work with > dsg. ... Thanks for your encouragement, Herman (also Ken O and Dan);-)) Also thanks to all the members for the ‘plenty of differing views’ and ‘diversity of perspective’;-) Metta, Sarah ======== 28759 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: moha Hi Dan. You wrote a week or two ago: Dan: I still want to work through the "restlessness" cetasika as it appears in, say, well into an intensive meditation retreat at a time when calm and peaceful lobhamulacittani arise, and how "restlessness" is experienced in sloth-and-torpor moments... .... Yes, good points and I don’t have anything much to add to what Nina writes in ‘Cetasikas’ under uddhacca cetasika: http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas16.html In particular: "Restlessness Uddhacca, translated as restlessness, agitation, excitement or confusion, is another akusala cetasika which arises with each akusala citta. The Atthasalini (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 250) gives the following definition of uddhacca: It has mental excitement as characteristic like wind-tossed water; wavering as function, like a flag waving in the wind: whirling as manifestation like scattered ashes struck by a stone; unsystematic thought owing to mental excitement as proximate cause; and it should be regarded as mental distraction over an object of excitement." ***** I often reflect on the aspect that when there is no dana, sila or bhavana, even when the mind seems so very tranquil, pleasant and quiet, there is uddhacca, “like wind-tossed water”. Whilst we can clearly see how strong lobha (attachment) is accompanied by agitation which has 'whirling as manifestation', gradually we can understand more about what seem like peaceful states, usually accompanied by lobha and uddhacca too. It helps me understand how and why samatha cannot develop without very keen understanding of wholesome versus unwholesome peace and quiet. Only panna (understanding) can clearly discern whether it is supposed calm with attachment and mental excitement or calm with detachment and steadfastness. No need to pinpoint, but more and more subtle kinds of attachment can be known. With sloth and torpor too - no steadiness or attentiveness for kusala mind-states and actions. Sloth and torpor have ‘sinking of associated states as manifestation’ and I thought of your comments (and Ken O’s) on crossing the flood: >SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [KenH] Dan:“It is in no way asceticism, nor is it in any way hedonism. The focus is shifted from the things done (follow strict rules or follow sensual desires) to the understanding of the state of mind when things are done.” **** Further to Crossing the Flood and understanding the distinction between steadfastness and restlessness, you might appreciate this quote from the Atthasalini (PTS, The Expositor, Part1V, ch11, p.190): “...It stands having dived and entered into the object - this is ‘solidity.’.......It stands combining associated states in the object - this is ‘solidity.’ It stands having dived and entered into the object - this is ‘steadfastness.’ In the moral portion four states dive into the object - to wit, faith, mindfulness, concentration, understanding. Hence faith has said to be the downard plunge, mindfulness to be the non-floating, concentration to be the grounded stand and understanding to be the sounding penetration. And in the immoral portion three states dive into the object - to wit, craving, opinionativeness and ignorance. Hence they are called the down-plungers [or floods].” We could add, the down-plungers with uddhacca (mental excitement) and no steadfastness. Like others, I liked the Bach analogy post and emphasis on how ‘minds arise and fall with great rapidity’ and‘ “the mind” is really just a way to refer to a long, long series of “minds” that arise and fall from moment to moment.’ I hope you’ll continue;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 28760 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 3:10am Subject: Whose Abhidhamma? ( Was:Re: Karunadasa - "Time and Space..) Hi Howard, Christine, and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Christine - > > I've now read the whole article, though somewhat quickly. I still > think it's an excellent piece of work, but I evaluate his treatment of space as a > less-than-successful attempt at having his cake and eating it too! He tries > mightily to portray space as merely conceptual in Abhidhamma even though it is > given there as a rupa. Points awarded for effort!! ;-)) > > With metta, > Howard Okay, now I am seriously confused! I read this article, "Time and Space: The Abhidhamma perspective" and agree with absolutely everything in it!! I even started to feel very ashamed because the way this professor describes the Abhidhamma it makes perfect sense and no one with any sense should disagree with it…and here I have been spouting off to this group about how it is nonsensical! And yet, in comparison, I think that the Abhidhamma presented in this group (including the writings of Nina), and the Abhidhamma that Y. Karunadasa describes are two different Abhidhammas. Which is the real Abhidhamma??? Karunadasa describes the Abhidhamma as a means of categorizing and understanding experience, and that namas and rupas are ultimate realities in the sense that experience is the ultimate reality, which I completely agree with!! And yet in this group the discription of namas and rupas are ultimate realities in a pseudo- scientific sense as psychological and materialistic realities; which I don't agree with. What is going on here?? Have I been unfairly criticizing something that doesn't deserve to be criticized because of the false interpretations I have received in this group? Or is Karunadasa reinterpreting the Abhidhamma in a way that makes sense but isn't actually present in the system of thought? (Which I believe you are stating here, Howard). And, there is a third possibility: that the Abhidhamma is both right and wrong. That it began as a correct system of thought based on the Buddha's teachings, possibly began by Ven. Sariputta, and then subsequent thinkers who did not properly understand its complicated subtleties misinterpreted the kernel of the original teachings of Abhidhamma until it became an unwieldy conglomeration? I'm seriously confused here! :-/ Metta, James 28761 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 3:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] To the foot of a tree ... Hi Christine, Thanks for this good post;-) --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Were there ants at 'the foot of a tree' in N. India 2600 years ago? > And, if so, what did the monks of old do? I mean, a tiger or a lion > is avoidable, snakes are a little harder ... but how do you ant-proof > yourself? (Metta doesn't seem to work). <..> > Ven. Bhaddiya Kaligodha: > "going to a forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, > would repeatedly exclaim, "What bliss! What bliss!" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud2-10.html ;-) I think ants came before stockings. Ok, for your collection:- ant (kipillikaa) as in Vibh-a (Dispeller, 123): “But it is just as when a line of termites or a line of ants, on being looked at, seems as though it were bound together, yet it is not bound together; for the head or the belly or the feet of one is near to the head of another, the head or belly or the feet of one is near the belly of another, the head or belly or the feet of one is near the feet of another. In the same way indeed, of the material qualities [S:rupas] of fourfold origination [S:kamma, citta, temperature, nutrition], the arising of one or its presence or dissolution is at the moment of arising of another, the arising of one or its presence or dissolution is at the moment of presence of another, the arising of one or its presence or dissolution is at the moment of dissolution of another. Thus should ‘multiple arising and multiple cessation’ be understood here.” Who says the Abhidhamma doesn’t have practical applicability?;-) And so with all the gross and subtle rupas being discussed in other threads, we learn that what we take for body, hair, feet and so on should be understood as representing rupas arising and falling in succession like the line of ants: “But ‘multiple arising and multiple cessation’ should be understood in accordance with materiality of fourfold continuity. For in this body, from the soles of the feet up, from the hair of the head down and confined by the skin, materiality of fourfold origination occurs here and there heaped in a mass.” Metta Sarah p.s. Thanks for answering your Qu so well on the age of devas: --- christine_forsyth wrote: > How old is an old deva? Depends .. > > "Kingship over human beings is a meager thing when compared with > heavenly bliss. > "Fifty human years are equal to one day & night among the Devas of > the Four Great Kings. Thirty such days & nights make a month. Twelve > such months make a year. Five hundred such heavenly years constitute > the life-span among the Devas of the Four Great Kings. 28762 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 5:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] the study of Abhidhamma and rupas. Dear Nina, I wrote a longer post a couple of days ago in my draft document, didn't post as I planned to add a quote and cleared out the drafts today, quite forgetting it. Anyway, it was just to thank you for all this detail and to say that these discussions and elaborations from the Vism (sometimes the bitter medicine) are very helpful for me too....just a condition for a tad more detachment from 'my body', 'my life' that we find so precious. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > if we can't relate them to daily life. > N: That is what I am trying to do all the time, but what I find it so > very > difficult, Larry. People keep on thinking that all these rupas are > conventional terms, and how to bring home that they are realities? > I think daily life without the Abhidhamma is so chaotic. ... I agree. The kilesa may be as apparent as ever, but the gradual straightening of views and 'mini-meditations' have a big impact in daily life. I've been conscious of this as I talk to my brother who sees life more from a sociological/political way - society morals and situations again. .... The Abhidhamma > is > very precise, teaches in detail about nama and rupa. For most people the > teaching about cittas is more acceptable than the teaching about rupas. ... It was like this for a long time for me too. Even then, some cittas were more interesting than others;-) .... <...> > Chemists are not interested at detachment, <...> > The root of the problem is this: study of Abhidhamma should go hand in > hand > with satipatthana, otherwise we get the wrong grasp (the snake really > bites), lost in speculations. ... ;-) ;-) ... >Lodewijk > said that he will throw my computer out of the window. ... Please ask him to have compassion for us;-) Thank you again for all the helpful comments here and in the other detailed posts. I'm sure that for most people it just takes time to assimilate and they need to refer back to it all from time to time, as with your books which get quoted so often now. Metta, Sarah p.s Pls tell Lodewijk that I especially liked his reminder about death, that "we cannot prepare for such a loss, but that we can continue to study and consider the Dhamma little by little." Your discussions on walks sound helpful too. =========================================== 28763 From: Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Whose Abhidhamma? ( Was:Re: Karunadasa - "Time and Space..) Hi, James - In a message dated 1/7/04 6:11:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, Christine, and All, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi again, Christine - > > > > I've now read the whole article, though somewhat quickly. I > still > >think it's an excellent piece of work, but I evaluate his treatment > of space as a > >less-than-successful attempt at having his cake and eating it too! > He tries > >mightily to portray space as merely conceptual in Abhidhamma even > though it is > >given there as a rupa. Points awarded for effort!! ;-)) > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > Okay, now I am seriously confused! I read this article, "Time and > Space: The Abhidhamma perspective" and agree with absolutely > everything in it!! I even started to feel very ashamed because the > way this professor describes the Abhidhamma it makes perfect sense > and no one with any sense should disagree with it…and here I have > been spouting off to this group about how it is nonsensical! And > yet, in comparison, I think that the Abhidhamma presented in this > group (including the writings of Nina), and the Abhidhamma that Y. > Karunadasa describes are two different Abhidhammas. Which is the > real Abhidhamma??? Karunadasa describes the Abhidhamma as a means of > categorizing and understanding experience, and that namas and rupas > are ultimate realities in the sense that experience is the ultimate > reality, which I completely agree with!! And yet in this group the > discription of namas and rupas are ultimate realities in a pseudo- > scientific sense as psychological and materialistic realities; which > I don't agree with. What is going on here?? Have I been unfairly > criticizing something that doesn't deserve to be criticized because > of the false interpretations I have received in this group? Or is > Karunadasa reinterpreting the Abhidhamma in a way that makes sense > but isn't actually present in the system of thought? (Which I > believe you are stating here, Howard). > > And, there is a third possibility: that the Abhidhamma is both right > and wrong. That it began as a correct system of thought based on the > Buddha's teachings, possibly began by Ven. Sariputta, and then > subsequent thinkers who did not properly understand its complicated > subtleties misinterpreted the kernel of the original teachings of > Abhidhamma until it became an unwieldy conglomeration? > > I'm seriously confused here! :-/ > > Metta, James > > ================================ I also love Karunadasa's description of Abhidhamma, which is somewhat similar, I think, to Ven Nyanaponika's. As I said before, most of what he writes in this article sounds to me like my own thoughts! And I think that his evaluation of Abhidhamma is a valid one as an overall view, passing over minor problem areas which I think grew out of the "scientific" world view of the ancients. The only criticism I had was that the author of the article tried to put forward the idea that although Abhidhamma treats space (akasa-dhatu) as a rupa, it doesn't "really" mean it, and that space is really just concept, but, for some reason, should also be called a rupa. I think the author does think that Abhidhamma is slightly "off" on this issue, but he doesn't want to quite say that. In any case, my point of view remains what is was prior to reading this article, namely that Theravadin Abhidhamma is less than perfect, but that overall it is an amazing conceptual edifice that is best understood in pretty much the way Karundasa describes it in this article. The Abhidhamma of the Theravadins, while not IMO the direct word of the Buddha, is largely faithful to his teachings, is *way* better than the eternalist, substantialist, and annihilationist abhidhammic works of other schools, and fits rather harmoniously with the work of Nagarjuna and Vasubandhu in Mahayana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28764 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 6:13am Subject: Re: Paññatti_VS_Paramattha:_To_Nina,_Mike_B_And_Ken_O Dear Sarah, Nina, Htoo and all How are you? Sarah wrote: "I appreciate that you are referring to personal interpretations and so on which may be apparent in other texts and notes and terms used. I'm sure we'd agree in this regard. I'm really only familiar with the translations." You are spot-on. Yes, I am referring to their personal interpretations and, in particular, criticism of Aacariya Buddhaghosa and Pali commentaries. My polemics was never towards their efforts in translations of Pali texts. Believe it or not, whenever I found a scholar or an academic criticizing Buddhaghosa, when checked closely, it is usually because Buddhaghosa is always in their way preventing them from leaning towards Veda and/or personal interpretations. Thank you for posting of translations on paramattha and paññatti. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Suan, Michael & All, > > --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > How are you? Happy New Year to Sarah. > .... > Thanks, Suan. To you also. It's good to see your helpful explanations. 28765 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 6:54am Subject: Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Dear Michael B, Nina, Htoo, Mike Niece, Herman and all How are you? Michael wrote: "Your definition that `Real or actual truth is truth by observation, experience, or experiment' sounds more like a method than a definition of the truth. Through observation, experience or experiment one may realize the truth but that does not explain what the truth is. So your definition is not very helpful in that respect." Believe it or not, the thing called "truth" whose abstract definition you are after does not exist independently of the paramattha dhammaa such as anger, feeling, and matter. And the paramattha anger, paramattha feeling, paramattha matter are best understood by observation, experience and experiment. That is why I defined paramattha saccaa the way I did - like a method or in terms of an operational definition - instead of giving you a definition of "truth". When you get a definition of a particular paramattha dhamma such as anger, for example, it is tantamount to you also getting a definition of what truth is. Please digest the above explanation for now. Remember that truth does not exist by itself on its own. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Suan, 28766 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 7:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Suan (and all,) Thanks for your effort. Not that it has produced many results because you preferred to leave many questions unanswered. But don’t worry in providing those answers because it is quite clear to me what is the thinking of the ancient Theravada commentators. You refrained from giving me a definition of paramatha but the article written by Karudanasa (I presume he is part of your list of trusted scholars – don’t bother to answer) clearly shows what paramatha means: A dhamma in the sense of an elementary constituent is often defined as that which has its own-nature or own-being (sabhava, sakabhava). This has two implications. One is that it represents a specific fact, mental or material, which is not shared by the other dhammas. Hence own-nature is also defined as the characteristic, which is peculiar to a dhamma (avenika-sabhava). The other implication is that since a dhamma has its own nature, its existence is not dependent on the operation of the mind as a conceptual construct. It is not a product of mental interpretation and as such it is an existent having objective reality. Thus; the Abhidharnma theory of reality demands that we make a clear distinction between dhammas, that is, those types of entities that possess ontological ultimacy on the one hand, and pannattis, that is, those entities that exist only as conceptual constructs, on the other. A dhamma is a truly existent thing (sabhava-siddha), whereas a pannatti is a thing merely conceptualized (parikappa-siddha). The former is an existent verifiable by its own distinctive intrinsic characteristic, but the latter, being a product of the mind’s synthetic function, exists only by virtue of thought. It is a mental construct superimposed on things and hence possesses no objective counterpart. The dhammas, as we have already noted, are the entities that have ontological ultimacy. Hence they are often described as paramattha, that is, that which exists in a real and ultimate sense. Those are quite straight forward explanations of what is a paramatha and paññatti. There are many words used in those quotes, like ‘own-nature,’ ‘own-being,’ ‘characteristic peculiar to a dhamma,’ ‘distinctive intrinsic characteristic,’ ‘existence,’ ‘ontological ultimacy,’ ‘truly existing thing,’ ‘exists in a real and ultimate sense.’ All those words only confirm to me what I knew already. Pointing to qualities that the dhammas posses that can only be explained by one attribute. If the dhammas are all that which has been described, they must have an essence, they exist from their own side, by their own power. But this interpretation is not in accordance with the suttas. I said before and say again, there is no paramatha, no sabhava, in the suttas, and paññatti appears in the suttas but with a different meaning than the one used in the Abhidhamma commentaries. Those are all concepts invented by the Commentators. I am not discarding the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma is a good tool to understand human psychology but it is very poor in defining Buddhist philosophy. I have to say that from my point of view this thread is closed. I realized from recent messages that my observations have stirred up a lot of emotions. I don’t want to upset people even more. For those who don’t have a strong attachment to their views and want to better understand a philosophical stand which is closer to the teachings of the suttas I suggest to study the Madhyamaka philosophy. For those who have strong attachment to the views expressed by the Abhidhamma commentators, just remember that any strong attachment is a hindrance in the path. May you all be happy and sorry for any disturbances that I may have caused. Metta Michael 28767 From: Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 2:59am Subject: Truth [Re: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O] Hi, Suan (and all) - In a message dated 1/7/04 9:56:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > > Dear Michael B, Nina, Htoo, Mike Niece, Herman and all > > How are you? > > Michael wrote: > > "Your definition that `Real or actual truth is truth by observation, > experience, or experiment' sounds more like a method than a > definition of the truth. Through observation, experience or > experiment one may realize the truth but that does not explain what > the truth is. So your definition is not very helpful in that respect." > > Believe it or not, the thing called "truth" whose abstract definition > you are after does not exist independently of the paramattha dhammaa > such as anger, feeling, and matter. > > And the paramattha anger, paramattha feeling, paramattha matter are > best understood by observation, experience and experiment. > > That is why I defined paramattha saccaa the way I did - like a method > or in terms of an operational definition - instead of giving you a > definition of "truth". > > When you get a definition of a particular paramattha dhamma such as > anger, for example, it is tantamount to you also getting a definition > of what truth is. > > Please digest the above explanation for now. > > Remember that truth does not exist by itself on its own. > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > http://www.bodhiology.org > =============================== Some thoughts about 'truth': Truth, in everday usage, is a measure of how well a statement matches the way things are, how well it accords with "reality". Now, all statements are verbal expressions of properties supposedly holding of conventional objects or of relations holding among conventional objects. (The very subject-object form of a sentence makes that so.) If the properties or relations are seen to indeed hold, then the statement is "true". Truth and falsehood are properties (of varying degree) of statements and of the ideas they stand for. Now, the notion of 'ultimate truth' is a bit tricky, I think. If the concepts of a statement are seen as shorthands that express complex patterns of relations among direct experiences - that is, if the concepts embodied in the sentence are seen through and are understood to denote entities only in a manner of speaking, then the truth of a true statement is an "ultimate truth". But if the concepts are taken literally as denoting true self-existent, separate entities, then the truth of the statement is at best a relative truth. Actually, in this case, the statement itself becomes merely a murky approximation to an actual assertion that could be unambiguously true or false. Now, sometimes when people speak of Truth (with an upper-case T), they mean "the way things actually are". That is not truth in the "true or false" sense - in the sense of sentential or propositional evaluation. It is not a linguistic matter at all. It is an existential matter, and it is to be known by means of wisdom, by a mind freed, if only for the moment, of defilements. But this use of the word 'truth' is probably a misuse, and might be better rendered by 'actuality' or 'reality'. With true metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28768 From: Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hi, Michael - In a message dated 1/7/04 10:55:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > All those words only confirm to me what I knew already. Pointing to > qualities that the dhammas posses that can only be explained by one > attribute. If the dhammas are all that which has been described, they must > have an essence, they exist from their own side, by their own power. But > this interpretation is not in accordance with the suttas. I said before and > say again, there is no paramatha, no sabhava, in the suttas, and paññatti > appears in the suttas but with a different meaning than the one used in the > Abhidhamma commentaries. Those are all concepts invented by the > Commentators. I am not discarding the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma is a good > tool to understand human psychology but it is very poor in defining Buddhist > > philosophy. > > I have to say that from my point of view this thread is closed. I realized > from recent messages that my observations have stirred up a lot of emotions. > > I don’t want to upset people even more. For those who don’t have a strong > attachment to their views and want to better understand a philosophical > stand which is closer to the teachings of the suttas I suggest to study the > Madhyamaka philosophy. For those who have strong attachment to the views > expressed by the Abhidhamma commentators, just remember that any strong > attachment is a hindrance in the path. > > ============================ Putting aside for the moment such terms as 'sabhava', I would simply ask whether one can distinguish between hardness and anger? If they are distinguishable, then they have (or are) different characteristics/conditions/natures. Hardness is not a separate, self-existent entity - it is a fleeting condition that arises in complete dependence on other equally empty conditions. The same is true for anger. But hardness and anger are not the same, they are distinguishable, and, IN THAT SENSE they each have their own nature. It is "own" nature, because it is a characteristic that is not shared, but it is not "own" in the sense of arising from itself - its origin lies elsewhere. The reality, as I see it, is that characteristics are neither intrinsic nor extrinsic, these being extremes. The reality of the matter is a middle-way reality that is neither of these extremes nor a compromise between them, but is something that can only be fully understood by direct, wise seeing (vijja), and I think that despite some of the terminology used, this is Karunadasa's perspective. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28769 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 8:27am Subject: [dsg] Whose Abhidhamma? ( Was:Re: Karunadasa - "Time and Space..) Dear Howard, Thank you so much for replying to my plea for help! ;-)) I have responded in text: Howard: I also love Karunadasa's description of Abhidhamma, which is somewhat similar, I think, to Ven Nyanaponika's. James: I am not familiar with Ven Nyanaponika's description of the Abhidhamma. When I joined this group I was assured that Nina was the foremost authority on the Abhidhamma and so I read some of her works and stopped there. Realize that I didn't really know anything about the Abhidhamma before joining this group. Nina's writings left me flat and cold because they emphasize the particulars without an eye on the overall picture. I found them insipid and superficial (Which reflects nothing on what I think of Nina as an individual. She is lovely and inspirational!). But now I feel like I have missed out on something. Like I am back at where I was when I joined this group. I still don't think I truly know the Abhidhamma! Howard: As I said before, most of what he writes in this article sounds to me like my own thoughts! James: And that is why, over time, I have become one of your biggest fans! ;-)) But, I think it is important to not be swayed by personal preference in this regard. Just because something is most like us doesn't mean that it is correct. Howard: And I think that his evaluation of Abhidhamma is a valid one as an overall view, passing over minor problem areas which I think grew out of the "scientific" world view of the ancients. James: Here is where I have problems. I don't believe that people should pick and choose from philosophies, especially religious ones, like one picks items at a salad buffet. ;-) It has to be completely correct and true "as is", like the Buddha's Dhamma is to me, or I am not interested in any part of it as a personal philosophy for myself. However, that may not apply in this case. The kernel may be true and the particulars not. I will have to give it more thought and outside research. Howard: The only criticism I had was that the author of the article tried to put forward the idea that although Abhidhamma treats space (akasa-dhatu) as a rupa, it doesn't "really" mean it, and that space is really just concept, but, for some reason, should also be called a rupa. James: Well, from an experiential point of view, I also consider space a concept. Actually, Taoism is big on emphasizing the usefulness of the "no-thingness" of space. Space cannot be directly experienced; it can only be inferred by the presence of other phenomena. Hmmm…this is a problem. And the Abhidhamma states that space is something that can be experienced? Like an `ether' or something? Well, maybe the Abhidhamma just had a typo? ;-)) Howard:I think the author does think that Abhidhamma is slightly "off" on this issue, but he doesn't want to quite say that. James: Hmmm…I shall have to read it again. I was probably too `stunned' by the time I got to that point! ;-) Howard: In any case, my point of view remains what is was prior to reading this article, namely that Theravadin Abhidhamma is less than perfect, but that overall it is an amazing conceptual edifice that is best understood in pretty much the way Karundasa describes it in this article. James: Okay. But I am still confused. Thank you for your efforts to explain though. Howard: The Abhidhamma of the Theravadins, while not IMO the direct word of the Buddha, is largely faithful to his teachings, is *way* better than the eternalist, substantialist, and annihilationist abhidhammic works of other schools, and fits rather harmoniously with the work of Nagarjuna and Vasubandhu in Mahayana. James: Hmmm…well, your scholarship on this matter is obviously much vaster than my own. However, I am not really interested in scholarship of Buddhism; I am interested in knowing what will deliver me from dukkha (as I believe you are as well). I don't want to read everything; I just want the `facts jack'! ;-). If there is more to the Abhidhamma than what I presently know, which could be of assistance in this regard, I will stick with it. If not, I will drop it like a hot stone. Metta, James 28770 From: Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 4:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Whose Abhidhamma? ( Was:Re: Karunadasa - "Time and Space..) Hi, James - In a message dated 1/7/04 11:38:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > James: Hmmm…well, your scholarship on this matter is obviously much > vaster than my own. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: That's questionable. My scholarship *may* be a bit broader - I don't know, but I evaluate it as rather superficial. (I'm being quite serious here.) ---------------------------------------------- However, I am not really interested in > > scholarship of Buddhism; I am interested in knowing what will deliver > me from dukkha (as I believe you are as well). I don't want to read > everything; I just want the `facts jack'! ;-). If there is more to > the Abhidhamma than what I presently know, which could be of > assistance in this regard, I will stick with it. If not, I will drop > it like a hot stone. > =========================== While I gain much from aspects of Abhidhamma, particularly as a general conceptual framework, what I depend on as "Buddha word" is (parts of) the Sutta Pitaka, and what I depend on for "deliverance" is the (conventional) path of practice I believe the Buddha taught and is expressed in the Sutta Pitaka. My choice of primary support comes from the Sutta Pitaka. Others may find their main support elsewhere, such as in the Abhidhamma and the ancient Theravadin commentaries, or in modern Theravadin commentaries, or in the Mahayana Sutras and other ancient and modern Mahayanist works, all of which are sources that I consider to be of great value and quite helpful. Each person must choose for his/herself where to draw primary sustenance, what to trust, what to depend on. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28771 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Space element Dear Nina, A question for you here. I agree space is Paramattha Dhamma (ultimate reality ). My question is ' Is space involved in Kalapa? ' Thanks in advance. Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Steve, See below op 27-12-2002 07:27 schreef Bodhi2500@a... op Bodhi2500@a...: Nina:space is a quality of rupa which delimits the kalapas, groups of rupa. There is space in between them so that they are distinct. It clarifies realities for me. Nina. 28772 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hi Michael, Michael: I have to say that from my point of view this thread is closed. I realized from recent messages that my observations have stirred up a lot of emotions. I don't want to upset people even more. James: I hope you won't do that. Please realize that you are not responsible for other people's emotions, only they are responsible for those. If people get upset, which I have noticed too [Hi Suan…], the only thing to consider is if you have done something wrong. Stating your opinion about this matter isn't doing something wrong, it is the purpose of this group. Anyway, I want to comment on something, YOU &^\$%~$#!! ;-))) (just teasing). Michael: `own-nature,' `own-being,' `characteristic peculiar to a dhamma,' `distinctive intrinsic characteristic,' `existence,' `ontological ultimacy,'`truly existing thing,' `exists in a real and ultimate sense.' All those words only confirm to me what I knew already. Pointing to qualities that the dhammas posses that can only be explained by one attribute. If the dhammas are all that which has been described, they must have an essence, they exist from their own side, by their own power. James: I don't think those words should be taken out of context, Karudanasa also writes in the same article: "Analysis shows that the world of experience is resolvable into a plurality of factors; synthesis shows that these factors are not discrete entities existing in themselves but inter-connected and inter—dependent nodes in a complex web of relationships. It is only for the purpose of definition and description that things are artificially dissected. In actuality the world given to experience is a vast network of tightly interwoven relations." http://www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm So I believe that Karudanasa is using those words in a different sort of way. That they simply mean the most basic phenomena that can be experienced. It all has to do with experience. Now, if the commentaries are misinterpreting or if it is the actual Abhidhamma, I don't know. But I do agree with you that something is amiss in this group's overriding interpretation of these matters. Believe me, you haven't upset people like I have, you should read my "Rupa is Rubbish" thread! ;-)) Metta, James 28773 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 60 (1 of 4) program Hi Larry, a good idea, but I have to pull out so many texts that I cannot elaborate on one section a day, if you don't mind. I have to limit myself. Nina. op 07-01-2004 00:57 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I will go ahead and post the > footnote in three parts over three days. 28774 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 10:25am Subject: FW: Bangkok Meeting Dear Chuck, wonderful if you can join us. attire: informal, as at home, we are like a family. Discussions are very informal, questions come up just like on dsg. But excellent if you can prepare some. Dates: Jan 29, whole day until 4, with lunch annex foundation. Jan 30, and Jan. 31 afternoon with A. Sujin, but mornings can be filled in between all of us. Are you the Chuck I met before at the foundation? Betty is most kind to help us all and can answer any questions you may have. beyugala@k... I put this on dsg, because now people can rejoice in your enthusiasm, it is a way of dana. I hope you can make it, Nina. ---------- Van: "Charles Thompson" Datum: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:10:42 -0800 Aan: Onderwerp: Bangkok Meeting Hello, I understand there is a DSG meeting in Bangkok later this month. Also, I understand it is open for all DSG members. Is this correct? If true, I would like info on discussion, date, time, location and attire for this meeting. 28775 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 60 (2 of 4), 2 a notes. Hi Larry and all, op 07-01-2004 01:14 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, paragraph 60 > > Note 26. ' "The heart-basis ... the support for the mind-element and for > the mind-consciousness element"; how is that to be known? (i) From > scriptures and (ii) from logical reasoning. N: Recap and Elaboration: Book of Analysis: Ch 3, Analysis of the Elements 184: [N: receiving-consciousness]. And: <...also (at the time of) first advertence [N: adverting-consciousness] in all states there arises consciousness... mind element.> Note the word: immediately after. No gap. Further on : To recap: mind-consciousness element: all cittas, except the five sense-cognitions and the three kinds of cittas classified as mind-element. It includes cittas experiencing an object through six doors as well as door-freed cittas, cittas not arising in processes, namely, rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga-cittas, dying-consciousness. In the above quoted text we see the usefulness of remembering mind-element and mind-consciousness element. Thus, processes of cittas are also dealt with also in the Book of Analysis of the Abhidhamma Text Tiika (of footnote 60, 2): > 'The scripture is this: "The materiality dependent on which the > mind-element and mind-consciousness-element occur is a condition, as a > support condition, for the mind-element and the > mind-consciousness-element and what is associated therewith" (P.tn. > 1,4). If that is so, why is it not mentioned in the Ruupaka.n.da of the > Dhammasa.nga.ni (Dhs.583ff.)? Its not being mentioned there is for > another reason. What is that? Non-inconsistency of the teaching. N: Now about general principles to understand the way of reasoning two and a half milleniums of years back. We find reasons for the way of classifications: to help those who are capable of understanding and for the sake of the beauty of the teaching. This is an argument that counts. Why? At that time the teachings were orally transmitted and rehearsed. The great harmony of arrangement helped to do so. That is why we see that sections are numbered as Ones, Twos (dyads), Threes etc. The whole book of Yamaka consists of dyads. We also see this principle in the Suttanta, such as Gradual Sayings: Book of the Ones, Twos, etc. . It is important to see that there are different headings of arrangement of the materials, and that there is non-inconsistency as we read here. The Pali has: desanaabhedo: desanaa: teaching. Bhedo: division or category. Thus literally: in accordance with the way of categorizing the teachings. An example: perception of impermanence: the word sa~n~naa is used here, aniccaa-sa~n~naa. The Co to Mahharaahulovaadasutta explains that this is vipassana, but under the heading of perception or remembrance. There are only *seemingly* contradictions, not in reality. Text: For > while eye-consciousness, etc., have the eye, etc., as their respective > supports absolutely, mind-consciousness does not in the same way have > the heart-basis as its support absolutely. N: In the arupa brahma planes where there is only nama, there is no heartbase. (Next time more on dyads) Nina. 28776 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Karunadasa - "Time and Space: The Abhidhamma perspective" Hi Howard, wait until we come with Larry to space. Many confusions generally about it. In the Abh it has a specific meaning and not to do with sky, outer space, etc. What you say about the article (I have no time to read it), it seems that the good professor missed the point. Rahula had to learn about inner space, the rupa dhamma of space. I wrote before: Nina. op 06-01-2004 23:48 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > He tries > mightily to portray space as merely conceptual in Abhidhamma even though it is > given there as a rupa. 28777 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Single Excellent Night - and Year Dear Andrew, what a wonderful letter you write here. So human about the lolly jar. Sarah and I keep on reminding each other how common all this is. See below. op 07-01-2004 00:43 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: I help care for Sandra's father who is 89 years > old and bedridden with only 30% lung function. The other day, I > decided to go into his room and check on him. Before I reached his > room, I realised that one of the main things driving me was lobha - a > desire to help myself to a lolly from his lolly jar! Quite shocked > at this, I deliberately avoided touching the lolly jar. > I think it is easy to get depressed and morose about "oneself" when > one starts to take a hard look at what's going on in the mind. I > find, however, that Abhidhamma stops me from getting depressed about > it. N: I am so glad you write about your daily life and how I appreciate your caring for Sandra's father. You say, Or we may at first be disturbed, but then after reflection and beginning to understand about cittas we are no longer depressed. A: Cittas arise and fall so quickly, I realise that there probably > were cittas of compassion arising and falling away before those > strongly affected by lobha came into play. N: Yes, Sarah and I concluded that we are always a mixture of kusala and akusala. Say, joking, this is often with lobha, but there can also be citta with compassion, wanting to help by way of relaxing the atmosphere ;-). Or, being upset by someone else's mental pain. This is not all compassion, O no. As soon as there is a feeling of being upset we know that there is dosa, we do not like an unpleasant object. But at other moments there can be true compassion, not thinking of ourselves. A: And it comforts me to > think :"okay, it's not easy but at least I'm trying to be honest > about the human condition." > As you say, it's all good study material. N: I like very much what you say here. Such daily life examples I always find helpful. I hope you will give more of them. This is the best way to understand the meaning of Abhidhamma. Nina. P.S. I hope Klaas found the smell thief example helpful. 28778 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Views along the way Dear James, I did not like to see you frightened, that is all. It hurts me, especially after your experiences last year. (Yes dosa, but also concern, mixed again!) I did not have anything to swear off. I appreciate samatha and for myself those subjects for every occasion (death, the Buddha, loathsomeness of the body etc) come up naturally. There is the mini meditation, or, even mini-mini-mini meditation. I liked your expression, because that is what it is. It is not much, but it can be accumulated little by little. A penny a day. With your good intuition you will know what I mean, not many words are needed ;-). Now what you say about fear, there is something in it. In Bgk we discussed about really experiencing that there is no self, and someone said it must be frightening. You cannot hold on to anything anymore that you are used to, all that is so familiar. On the other hand, understanding can condition the right balance. Kh. Sujin answered that one has to be very brave, one needs courage to face the truth, and that impressed me. The Bodhisatta was heroic, traversing the round of rebirths and developing understanding leading to awakening. We also have to be heroes, persevering life after life to develop satipatthana. We have good friends who can help us, but in the end we have to go it alone. Nice talking to you, Nina. op 06-01-2004 09:09 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > It is a little ironic to me, no > offense intended, that two people who swear off meditation and don't > practice it feel qualified to give advice about it to someone else. 28779 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: life maintenance Hi Larry, op 01-01-2004 17:10 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > I left out one class of living materiality called the "vital 9" (8 > inseparables + life faculty). What is it? Apparently it is different > from the sense, sex, & heart base decades. N: good you mention it. Kamma also produces groups of rupa all over the body which do not contain the sensebase, sex, & heart base. Then these are the inseparables plus life faculty, which is always a must whenever the group is produced by kamma. L: Also, can you give specific examples of what these terms refer to, > for example, skin, teeth, fat, bone? Otherwise they are too general > and meaningless. N: They are body parts and Buddha referred to these to show firstly that they are not worth clinging to. But then, we should come to the deeper meaning of parts of the body: what is really there? Only rupa elements, impermanent, non-self. By touch hardness is experienced, when we see them, it is actually colour that is experienced. Satipatthana together with the Abhidhamma! L:I am inclined to think the sense decades, including > the body decade, include only the materiality associated with the > specific sensory mechanism, in other words, nerves. N: They include the rupa that is fit or ready for impact plus life-faculty, plus the inseparables. Nerves may be confusing, then we mix medical notions with Abhidhamma. L:Would skin > tissue, and physiognomy in general, be an example of a sex decade? N: Let us say, it reveals it, just like the examples of occupation, posture, etc. L: Do all 4 means of production produce the 8 inseparables in > the "whole" body? N: Yes, but as said, there are nonads, decads, etc. They always contain the four inseparables. L:I am trying to figure out what is living and what > isn't. N: As we discussed before: dead matter is not kamma produced. What is kamma produced has life-faculty, always. L: The 8 inseparables that kamma produces is living materiality. N: They are different from those produced by the element of heat. Now we have to make a distinction. Only in a living body there are units produced by kamma, citta and nutrition. And there are units of eight also in a living body produced by heat. In a non-living body, what we call a rock, there are units produced only by heat. L:Can you give examples of what would be examples of 8-inseparables > produced by kamma, temperature, consciousness, and nutriment? When we say produced by kamma it has to be at least nine rupas. All over the body, impossible to pinpoint. Just like sex faculty: all over the body. Remember the comparison of sex faculty with bodysense that is all over the body. Citta: we come to that: bodily and verbal intimation. But also all the time many pure octads and we do not notice this. L: Please > be specific. If, because of desire, I eat too much pure octad, is the > resulting fat produced by kamma or by consciousness? N: I have to laugh here. During the festive days? We speak now in conventional terms. I am inclined to think of nutrition. But we cannot pinpoint all that. Remember, the different groups produced by the four factors are interlocked and support each other. Jon remarked: You had a good question to Jon: how can it be daily life what we know about the inseparables, also with regard to those we do not observe. Let us talk about colour or visible object, which belongs to the inseparables. I do not speak now about all the other groups of more than eight which also contain colour. Colour is seen, one of the group that impinges on eyesense. The other seven arise together with it, but they are not seen, we do not notice them. But they condition by way of conascence the colour. This means, they condition colours to be so different. There are different intensities of heat or hardness, of the Great Elemennts, this condiitons the colour to be such or such. But we should not speculate about this. Only as background info it helps awareness of colour to be more natural. We do not look for a neutral or grey colour, we understand that colours are all different and appear through the eyes. Defining colours is not seeing, it is thinking, but we see them all. But we do not try to know a special colour. Thus we see that details are helpful, so long as we do not speculate too much about them. Now we can appreciate the examples of Dhammasangani, p. 167: blue, yellow, long, short, oval, square. We see them all, before defining: this is oval. (Sarah, good subject for Bgk). Nina. 28780 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 10:37am Subject: Re: Howard's tree and a little hint ..Continuation of Pannatta Dear Carl, Sorry for my late reply. I now find your post here. I hope the matter is going to be clear. Please see below. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > Dear Htoo, thank you for you very informative reply to my questions. Carl: I have printed out the citta process as you wrote it and keep it close at hand for a reference :)............... Carl: Htoo, I have trouble here. You write "Actual sight- consciousness arises at eye or Cakkhayatana or Cakkhu Pasada or Cakkhu Vatthu." I guess I am wondering if a "worldly" flesh-and-blood location can be established for sight-consciousness? I have always located this event (the tree) to take place within the brain-mass (occipatal lobe precisely). Would I be more correct to understand sight (the tree) as occuring on, in or about the eye-organ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Actual sight-consciousness or Cakkhuvinnana Citta arises at eye. Other continuing process happen at mind-door. Brain is Pannatti. So any part of it is Pannatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: The object seems to be taken to us and we see it. Or we go >there to the object and take it. Carl: I do not understand how we "go there to the object"? "That the object seems to be taken to us" seems understandable to me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : There is no 'we'. If the object is assumed as existing at a specific site, the nature who has the power of knowledge ( Citta ) is said to goes there and take the object. If the idea that the combination of Nama and Rupa or Satta is assumed as existing at a specific site and as the mind know the object at its own home, then the object is seemed to be taken to the mind and the mind takes that object. Does this make sense? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: It is wrong to say, ' the true nature of the *outside world* >is unknowable. Functions of Cittas and Cetasikas are to know >both outside world and inside world. Carl: Yes, I think I understand this at some level. But I remain perplexed. If the *worldly/conventional* vision of "the tree" is produced in the mind, as I have assumed, then there must be a gap (time/distance) between the inside and the outside world? If there is such a gap/separation then the outside world can never be directly experienced even though it is really out there. But perhaps if I come to understand "the tree" as actually appearing directly on or about the eye, then I may understand a direct contact of some kind with "the tree" with no gap? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : There is a gap for nearly all. Here I must ask you what do you mean by ' directly '? 5 senses sense the outside *world* directly. Even the 6th sense can sometimes directly senses the outside *world*. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl: Yes, conventional realities vs ultimate realities Fascinating! :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : When real Dhamma is directly known, there is no more problem with conventional truth. The Buddha usded the words 'I', 'me' , 'my' , 'mine'. Arahats knew what The Buddha meaned. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl: Thank you so much Htoo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : We are Dhamma brothers. You are welcome. P.S: Thanks Sarah for your reminder that the message appeared a week ago. I think, I was busy and it was missed as dsg is very active :-)) 28781 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 1:33pm Subject: Samyutta Corner - Remedy for festive over-indulgence Dear Group, For those who over-indulged in the holiday season - astute advice from the lips of the Buddha. Don't you just love King Pasenadi? He is so REAL, and if he could transport across two and a half thousand years, he'd be so natural, just like the man next to you in the supermarket line! In the 3 Kosalasamyutta 13 (3) A Bucket Measure of Tood "At Saavatthi. Now on that occasion King Pasenadi of Kosala had eaten a bucket measure of rice and curries. [n.229] Then, while still full, huffing and puffing, the king approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, and sat down to one side. Then the Blessed One, having understood that King Pasenadi was full and was huffing and puffing, on that occasion recited this verse: When a man is always mindful, Knowing moderation in the food he eats, His ailments then diminish: He ages slowly, guarding his life." Now on that occasion the brahmin youth Sudassana was standing behing King Pasenadi of Kosala. The king then addressed him thus: "Come now, dear Sudassana, learn this verse from the Blessed One and recite it to me whenever I am taking my meal. I will then present you daily with a hundred kahaapanas as a perpetual grant." [n.230] "Yes, sire," the brahmin youth Sudassana replied. Having learned this verse from the Blessed One, whenever King Pasenadi was taking his meal the brahmin youth Sadassa recited: "When a man is always mindful ... He ages slowly, guarding his life.." Then King Pasenadi of Kosala gradually reduced his intake of food to at most a pint-pot measure of boiled rice. [n.231] At a later time, when his body had become quite slim, Kind Pasenadi of Kosala stroked his limbs with his hand and on that occasion uttered this inspired utterance: "The Blessed One showed compassion towards me in regard to both kinds of good - the good pertaining to the present life and that pertaining to the future life." [n. 232] n.232 Spk: The good pertaining to the present life was the slimming of the body; the good pertaining to the future was virtue (sila), on e aspect of which is modertion in eating. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28782 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 1:51pm Subject: Re: Karunadasa - "Time and Space: The Abhidhamma perspective" Hi Christine and everyone, Thank you so much for posting this link. I devoured the article, and with each paragraph the lack of any reference to the concepts of kusala/akusala made the reading all the more agreeable. Maybe you or someone could assist me with the following excerpt: "The other implication is that since a dhamma has its own nature, its existence is not dependent on the operation of the mind as a conceptual construct. It is not a product of mental interpretation and as such it is an existent having objective reality." Does this statement allow for unexperienced dhammas? Are there dhammas without mind? Christine, I really enjoyed the prose of your post re at the foot of the tree. Can't give you any practical help with ants but. Sorry :-) All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > You may be interested in reading: > > "Time and space: The Abhidhamma perspective" > > The following is the Professor K. N. Jayatilleke Memorial Lecture > 2003 by Y. Karunadasa, former director, Postgraduate Institute of > Pali and Buddhist Studies. > > http://www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28783 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 2:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Views along the way Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James, > I did not like to see you frightened, that is all. It hurts me, especially > after your experiences last year. (Yes dosa, but also concern, mixed again!) Thank you for your lovely post. Your concern and compassion for me are not, in my estimation, anything to apologize for. Thank you. I am glad that you, and Sarah it seems, like my description of `mini- meditations'; I do believe that they are real and can be accumulated; like `a penny a day' as you state…very cute! ;-). And this may very well be the proper method for the householder, I am not sure. However, I have chosen to push onward and forward, at a very accelerated rate, to find out the answers. My dedication is so strong that at one point I was going to become a monk, but I think I was born in the wrong time-frame for that. Oh well, I am sure you will understand about that also. As far as the fear aspect to my meditation, I don't know. I have been reading contradictory things about that. I like what you write, "On the other hand, understanding can condition the right balance." That is probably true, my understanding is not strong enough at this point so I continue to back down. I am not brave enough yet I don't think. Perhaps with your help and encouraging words some day I will be. Metta, James 28784 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 2:20pm Subject: Re: Samyutta Corner - Remedy for festive over-indulgence Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > For those who over-indulged in the holiday season - astute advice > from the lips of the Buddha. Hahaha...I am so glad that you introduced this sutta! It is one of my favorites from that section also but I couldn't figure out how to do it! Your transition is brilliant! Metta, James 28785 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 3:11pm Subject: Re: Karunadasa - "Time and Space: The Abhidhamma perspective" Hi all, You may be also interested in reading I. TRANSCENDENTAL DOCTRINE OF ELEMENTS First Part. Transcendental Aesthetic [065] Introduction [065] Section 1. Space [065] Section 2. Time [074] General Observations on the Transcendental Aesthetic [082] in Kant's Critique of Pure Reason translated by Norman Kemp Smith. http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Philosophy/Kant/cpr/ Although the Critique itself has nothing to do with the Buddha's teaching of dukkha and the cessation of dukkha, the part in Transcendental Aesthetic can be an interesting comparison with the Abhidhamma perspective on time and space. And as a whole, Kant's Critique of Pure Reason can be an interesting comparison with the Abhidhamma metaphysics. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > You may be interested in reading: > > "Time and space: The Abhidhamma perspective" > > The following is the Professor K. N. Jayatilleke Memorial Lecture > 2003 by Y. Karunadasa, former director, Postgraduate Institute of > Pali and Buddhist Studies. > > http://www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28786 From: Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 10:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Karunadasa - "Time and Space: The Abhidhamma perspective" Hi, Herman - In a message dated 1/7/04 4:58:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Maybe you or someone could assist me with the following excerpt: > > "The other implication is that since a dhamma has its own nature, > its existence is not dependent on the operation of the mind as a > conceptual construct. It is not a product of mental interpretation > and as such it is an existent having objective reality." > > Does this statement allow for unexperienced dhammas? Are there > dhammas without mind? > ========================== Although I don't believe in the existence of unobserved dhammas (i.e. not the content of any mindstream), I *do* think this quotation does allow for unexperienced dhammas, but also doesn't insist on their existence. It maintains only that every actual condition (paramattha dhamma) exists independently of conceptualization, but it is noncommital as to whether it exists other than as an object of awareness. As I see it, this quoted material just doesn't address that issue. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28787 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 4:05pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hello James, James: So I believe that Karudanasa is using those words in a different sort of way. That they simply mean the most basic phenomena that can be experienced. It all has to do with experience. Michael: My take on the abhidhamma is exactly what you are saying, it should be regarded as part of phenomenology, and that is the way Nyanaponika Thera in his book Abhidhamma Studies interprets it as well. The problem with Karudanasa is that he refers to ontological ultimacy, and this has nothing to do with phenomenology. It goes right into metaphysics and it is in this respect, that I see the Abhidhamma being used poorly. James: Please realize that you are not responsible for other people's emotions, only they are responsible for those. Michael: Yes and no. On a person to person basis it is easier to gauge emotions and know when it is wise to say something or just keep quiet. In a list it is much harder. I try my best to use language in a way which is beneficial to the listener as well. Not always successful I have to concede but I try. In a list as I said it is harder. Metta Michael 28788 From: Charles Thompson Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Bangkok Meeting Dear Nina, et al A very warm thank you. Unfortunately, I am not that lucky Chuck. A real miss on my part. I do look forward to meeting you and all my many virtual friends from whom I learned so much as your "lurker" member. Peace... metta (maitri), Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 10:25 AM Subject: [dsg] FW: Bangkok Meeting Dear Chuck, wonderful if you can join us. attire: informal, as at home, we are like a family. Discussions are very informal, questions come up just like on dsg. But excellent if you can prepare some. Dates: Jan 29, whole day until 4, with lunch annex foundation. Jan 30, and Jan. 31 afternoon with A. Sujin, but mornings can be filled in between all of us. Are you the Chuck I met before at the foundation? Betty is most kind to help us all and can answer any questions you may have. beyugala@k... I put this on dsg, because now people can rejoice in your enthusiasm, it is a way of dana. I hope you can make it, Nina. ---------- 28789 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 4:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hello James, I forgot to mention in my previous post that prior to getting in contact with Buddhism I had the notion that talk was absolutely cheap, had no consequence whatsoever. It was one, among others, big impacts when I started to learn more. And one of the suttas that I have in the box of the ‘most liked’ is the Ambalatthikarahulovada Sutta – MN 61, where the Buddha advises his son Rahula on the criteria to decide if something is worthwhile saying (doing, thinking as well ) or not. And one of the criteria is not causing affliction to others. Metta Michael >From: "Michael Beisert" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O >Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 19:05:01 -0500 > >Hello James, > >James: >So I believe that Karudanasa is using those words in a different sort >of way. That they simply mean the most basic phenomena that can be >experienced. It all has to do with experience. > >Michael: >My take on the abhidhamma is exactly what you are saying, it should be >regarded as part of phenomenology, and that is the way Nyanaponika Thera in >his book Abhidhamma Studies interprets it as well. The problem with >Karudanasa is that he refers to ontological ultimacy, and this has nothing >to do with phenomenology. It goes right into metaphysics and it is in this >respect, that I see the Abhidhamma being used poorly. > >James: >Please realize that you are not >responsible for other people's emotions, only they are responsible >for those. > >Michael: >Yes and no. On a person to person basis it is easier to gauge emotions and >know when it is wise to say something or just keep quiet. In a list it is >much harder. I try my best to use language in a way which is beneficial to >the listener as well. Not always successful I have to concede but I try. In >a list as I said it is harder. > >Metta >Michael 28790 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 4:54pm Subject: RE: [dsg] What a person does...... (was:Contraception and the First Precept) Hello Sarah, Sarah: I’ve quoted from suttas which suggest we should judge by outer appearances and actions, eg AN, 6s, 123 ‘Don’t Judge Others!’ Michael: I was intrigued by your commenst beacuse I am familiar with some suttas of the Majjhima Nikaya which state exactly the opposite, that someone should be judged by his actions. Do you know where I can find an english version of the sutta from the AN you are referring to? Metta Michael 28791 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 5:12pm Subject: RE: [dsg] What a person does...... (was:Contraception and the First Precept) Hi Michael & All, I'm running very late,but wish to quickly make a correction: --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > Sarah: > I’ve quoted from suttas which suggest we should judge by outer > appearances > and actions, eg AN, 6s, 123 ‘Don’t Judge Others!’ ... The above should of course have read: 'we should *NOT* judge..... .... > Michael: > I was intrigued by your commenst beacuse I am familiar with some suttas > of > the Majjhima Nikaya which state exactly the opposite, that someone > should be > judged by his actions. Do you know where I can find an english version > of > the sutta from the AN you are referring to? ..... I've quoted quite a bit from the PTS version of the sutta before (escribe, key in 'judge' or 'Migasala' perhaps) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Under the title 'Don't Judge Others', it can be found in the very nice 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha', an Anthology from AN, transl by Nyanaponika and B.Bodhi. We have an inexpensive paperback copy, highly recommended. Must dash, Metta, Sarah ====== 28792 From: dragonwriter2 Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 6:23pm Subject: Question Re: Stage Hypnotism Hi, Hypnotised subjects of stage hypnotism after the show often report experiencing one of two responses. 1. Being totally aware of their actions but being unable to stop themselves. 2. Total amnesia of the event that occured. How would the teachings of the Abhidhamma explain these responses and stage hypnotism in general. For the Aussie members of the list there's a show "Mind Control" Chnl 9 Tues. 10:30pm which sparked the question. Metta Simon L. 28793 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 6:44pm Subject: Re: FW: Bangkok Meeting --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Chuck, > wonderful if you can join us. attire: informal, as at home, we are like a > family. Discussions are very informal, questions come up just like on dsg. > But excellent if ===== Dear Nina and all, Just a note to say I can't come now: couldn't get a babysitter. Anyway look forward to hearing the tapes. Rob 28794 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 7:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hi Michael In my personal opinion, let discuss this on the basis on the commentary text and lets not put others writings into this discussion. The discussion is focus on the text teaching and not on other scholar opinions. They are good to provide some insight or understanding or another opinion but they are not the authoritive textual books. If we have misunderstanding of theory, then commentary texts are the source and not others. With this framework, then we can discuss whether there is being or not. So far I have discuss with you on commentary and I have also suggested that you look into the commentary and provide quotes from there and support your case that sabhava is a being, uncaused. Is no used going one big round of discussion convincing I am right or you are right without a standard reference for discussion. Hence you will notice that I have consistently in our discussion refer only to the commentary and not others. Truth is definitely subjective and relative, what you think is truth and what I think may differ. So to prove a truth true or not true we should still as I said above basing on commentary, sutta and not others. M: If the dhammas are all that which has been described, > they must have an essence, they exist from their own side, by their own power. But this interpretation is not in accordance with the suttas. I said before and say again, there is no paramatha, no sabhava, in the suttas, and paññatti appears in the suttas but with a different meaning than the one used in the Abhidhamma commentaries. Those are all concepts invented by the Commentators. I am not discarding the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma is a good tool to understand human psychology but it is very poor in defining Buddhist > philosophy. k: I have stated the commentarian position that paramatthas exist but they dont exist on their own power. They have instrinic nature or characteristics and this nature (characteristic) only be known only when the paramatthas are conditioned to arise. Khandhas are paramathas, they are irreducible, can you give me a good eg how do khandhas be reduce any further. And I have also said I have not seen Buddha states sub-feeling etc in the sutta. Then can you claim that khandhas are not paramatthas. I have also state earlier that if there are sub-feelings, Buddha will have said it and not leave it unaddress bc five khandhas are one of the key practise in the suttas. If you like to explore the idea on sabhava again, I am most happy. kind regards Ken O 28795 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Dear Michael, No, no, I really enjoyed your dialogue with Suan, and I see that you really tried to listen and wanted to do your home work. Don't break this off, because I find I learn from such a dialogue. And nobody will try to convert you!!! Nina. op 07-01-2004 16:53 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > I realized > from recent messages that my observations have stirred up a lot of emotions. > I don’t want to upset people even more. 28796 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the study of Abhidhamma and rupas. Dear Sarah, you are very kind to encourage me. Yes, I am very happy to hear such good things from Lodewijk. When walking such discussions arise quite naturally. Nina. op 07-01-2004 14:11 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Pls tell Lodewijk that I especially liked his reminder about death, > that "we cannot prepare for such a loss, but that we can continue to study > and consider the Dhamma little by little." Your discussions on walks sound > helpful too. 28797 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Space element Dear Htoo, op 07-01-2004 18:53 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > A question for you here. I agree space is Paramattha Dhamma (ultimate > reality ). > > My question is ' Is space involved in Kalapa? ' N: As I said, it is around all the groups, kalapas, of rupas, so that they are distinct. Otherwise all those groups would be mixed up. We could compare it with the processes of cittas which are separated by bhavangacittas, otherwise they would be all mixed up, the sense-door processes and the mind-door processes. For some people it may seem very abstract, does it not? In the Atthasalini it is explained in a conventional way to help us, the manifestation of space if what is hollow in the body, cavity of the ear. Rahula had to consider this so that he owuld not cling to the body. When we come to it in the Vis. study with Larry, we shall go deeper into it. Nina. 28798 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 10:49pm Subject: Two to tango (was Re: Contraception and the First Precept) Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hiya Herman, and all, > > Herman: The initial activity proceeds from the initial > opinion, belief, judgement. How one dresses it up afterwards will > not alter the initial activity. > But I really wonder how kamma can play a role for one who suspends > judgement? > > Christine: Good question. Suspending judgment would be living > uncontaminated by ignorance/craving, comment/interpretation, > identification/label, no? How would we live our daily life? Is it > possible to choose to suspend judgement or has judging happened > before we are even aware of it? Isn't there no control, no free- > will? :-) :-) Yeah, I've heard that mentioned. And I'm sure I've said so myself. But it is contrary to all experience. (I've probably changed my take on this more times than I care to remember :-) That there is no self that controls and no self that has free-will is quite different to there not being control and free-will. Free-will is being exercised at each moment. That the choices that are being made mostly have the effect of perpetuating imprisonment within certain beliefs is neither here nor there. There is no inbuilt necessity to see things in any particular way at all, but the choice is made moment to moment. The idea of self comes out of free will, free will does not come out of self. Ask me again tomorrow, and it'll probably be different. All the best Herman > > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28799 From: rinze randeniye Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 0:48am Subject: Introduction cum 1st posting on Truth & Paramatthas Dear Friends, I am new to your group and hope that our correspondence will benefit mutually. I came across your group when browsing through the web. I thought that I could be of use here. Please find my response to a posting by Kenneth. Sometimes my positings are quite abrupt and precise! But rest assured they are written in good faith and utmost sincerety K:"Truth is definitely subjective and relative, what you think is truth and what I think may differ." Precisely! And the Truths that is being discussed here are those as seen by Lord Buddha and his Noble Disciples. Therefore there will always be a difference of opinions as long as we do not see the Dhamma as been seen by Lord Buddha! When our differences in opinion narrows down and ultimately coincides with that of Lord Buddha it is then that we understand and see the Dhamma as it should be seen. K:"They(paramatthas) have instrinic nature or characteristics and this nature (characteristic) only be known only when the paramatthas are conditioned to arise." Yes. And one of the conditions is our ignorance of things as they are. Metta Eznir 28800 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 1:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hi Michael, Michael: My take on the abhidhamma is exactly what you are saying, it should be regarded as part of phenomenology, and that is the way Nyanaponika Thera in his book Abhidhamma Studies interprets it as well. The problem with Karudanasa is that he refers to ontological ultimacy, and this has nothing to do with phenomenology. It goes right into metaphysics and it is in this respect, that I see the Abhidhamma being used poorly. James: Well, you have a point, if you are looking at `phenomenology' and `ontology' in the usual sense. However, now that I think I am getting a better grasp of the Abhidhamma, I think it should be viewed as a `phenomenological ontology'. To explain a bit more, from dictionary.com: phe•nom•e•nol•o•gy -n m -n l -j ) n.A philosophy or method of inquiry based on the premise that reality consists of objects and events as they are perceived or understood in human consciousness and not of anything independent of human consciousness. Ontology \On*tol"o*gy\, n. [Gr. ? the things which exist (pl.neut. of ?, ?, being, p. pr. of ? to be) + -logy: cf.F. ontologie.] That department of the science of metaphysics which investigates and explains the nature and essential properties and relations of all beings, as such, or the principles and causes of being. When reality is viewed as a tightly woven, interconnected conglomeration of phenomena, phenomena that is either mind-based or form-based, than it is a phenomenological ontology, it doesn't necessarily have to be either or. Then we get to this issue of the `unobserved rupa' which, unfortunately, I wasn't following as closely as I should have in this group, but here is my take: If a tree falls in the forest and absolutely no one is there to hear it does it make a sound? No because `sound' is a rupa that depends on ear-form, ear-consciousness, and cittas. Vibrations in the air are scientific and beyond the scope of the Abhidhamma. If the Abhidhamma is saying that `sounds' can exist without anyone there to hear them, then those sounds must occur in `Rupaville'. ;-)) I don't know what to say about that: it is an obvious contradiction to the entire philosophy. Michael: Yes and no. On a person to person basis it is easier to gauge emotions and know when it is wise to say something or just keep quiet. In a list it is much harder. I try my best to use language in a way which is beneficial to the listener as well. Not always successful I have to concede but I try. In a list as I said it is harder. James: All I was saying is that if your intention is pure and the consequence is impure, you are not responsible. I know that it is harder to gauge what is appropriate and what isn't on a list, so all you can do is gauge from your side. This is my take on it and you don't have to agree. Right Speech is one of the hardest things for me to follow because I can easily get people agitated when I didn't mean to, and sometimes I did mean to but didn't realize that I meant to (it was subconscious). Oh well, life isn't easy. Michael: I forgot to mention in my previous post that prior to getting in contact with Buddhism I had the notion that talk was absolutely cheap, had no consequence whatsoever. It was one, among others, big impacts when I started to learn more. And one of the suttas that I have in the box of the `most liked' is the Ambalatthikarahulovada Sutta – MN 61, where the Buddha advises his son Rahula on the criteria to decide if something is worthwhile saying (doing, thinking as well ) or not. And one of the criteria is not causing affliction to others. James: I think the Buddha means not intentionally causing affliction. Of course that is a common sense criterion. However, what if you need to teach someone something and to do so will cause them affliction? I cause affliction on a daily basis when I try to teach English Literature to teenagers who don't want to learn it!! What am I to do? Quit? Remain silent? Silence isn't always the best option. Also, I think it is important to consider that Rahula was a monk and that monks have a much higher standard of conduct than householders. According to the Vinaya, a monk shouldn't even teach the dhamma to a person unless it is face-to-face and many other criterions are met (unfortunately there are some monks on these Buddhist lists who break these precepts). The standards for monks and the standards for householders are not exactly the same. Metta, James 28801 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 2:10am Subject: Re: FW: Bangkok Meeting Dear Nina and Rob, I also cannot make it to Bkk this time. Had holidays for early Jan and was unable to change to late Jan - o well. I plan on being in Bkk the week preceding Apr 25, so if anyone else will be there then let me know. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > > wonderful if you can join us. attire: informal, as at home, we > Dear Nina and all, > Just a note to say I can't come now: couldn't get a babysitter. > Anyway look forward to hearing the tapes. > Rob 28802 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 2:30am Subject: Angulimala Dear Group, What is the relationship of Buddhism to Civil Law? I've always been uncomfortable about the story of Angulimala. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn086.html He murders 999 people (my teacher made me do it), meets the Buddha, joins the Sangha, and is not arrested, and not punished in any way by King Pasenadi after he learns of his presence there. Are Monks exempt from due process? One rule for Lay and another for Ordained? 999 murders... Imagine the terror and agony of the victims. Imagine the grief and suffering in the homes of thousands of people who loved the 999; Imagine the fear in whole communities. And what happens to Angulimala? He gets a cut on the head after being hit by a few rocks and clods thrown at him by the local people .. poor chap. Did he discover a secret vipaka-neutralising practice? He is protected from suffering the same fate as his victims. The families of the victims are prevented from resolution of their grief, and are subjected to seeing this serial killer in a privileged group, supported with regard to requisites by the local community he preyed upon. Justice is not seen to be done. If YOUR whole family had been murdered by someone who publicly wore their right thumbs as decorative trophies, what would you think of the Buddha's actions? And King Pasenadi's inaction? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 28803 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 4:01am Subject: Re: Angulimala --- Dear Christine, I guess one aspect is whether we think justice is related to vengence. King Pasenadi was a disciple of Buddha and accepted the Buddha's word that Angulimala was now of kind nature. Isn't that enough; once a person changes why would you want to punish them? He did discover a vipaka-neutralising miracle: upon parinibbana there is no more of the five khandhas and thus vipaka cannot arise. One point, there is no mention in the texts, as far as I know of anyone deliberately throwing anything at Angulimala. But because of past kamma he would sometimes be accidently hit when someone threw some rubbish out of the house or accidental things like that.. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > What is the relationship of Buddhism to Civil Law? I've always been > uncomfortable about the story of Angulimala. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn086.html > He murders 999 people (my teacher made me do it), meets the Buddha, > joins the Sangha, and is not arrested, and not punished in any way > by King Pasenadi after he learns of his presence there. Are Monks > exempt from due process? One rule for Lay and another for Ordained? > 999 murders... Imagine the terror and agony of the victims. Imagine > the grief and suffering in the homes of thousands of people who > loved the 999; Imagine the fear in whole communities. > And what happens to Angulimala? He gets a cut on the head after > being hit by a few rocks and clods thrown at him by the local > people .. poor chap. Did he discover a secret vipaka-neutralising > practice? He is protected from suffering the same fate as his > victims. 28804 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 4:04am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Dear Htoo, You'll remember I found it puzzling that you, with your extensive knowledge of Abhidhamma, would advocate a 'formal practice' of satipatthana. As we all know, satipatthana takes a nama or a rupa as its object. Such a phenomenon exists for less than one billionth of a second; it cannot be an object of the kind of concentration you and I are familiar with (that is, conventional concentration). ---------------- H: > When the serious meditator is trying to concentrate on his breath or at some point in his body, he may fail to do so. He may miss recognizing his body positions. ---------------- We have to remember that the flood is not crossed by trying (or by not trying). When, for example, the meditator is trying to concentrate, the object of his consciousness is pannatti, not paramattha dhamma. So there is no satipatthana at that precise moment. Presumably, you are saying that 'trying' can condition satipatthana to arise in a subsequent mind moment. Is there any evidence, anywhere in the Tipitaka, to support this theory? --------------- H: > However, we need to fight against this powerful mental enemy ' craving '. --------------- As a conditioned nama, craving can be the object of satipatthana. So, rather than fight against it, right mindfulness will welcome lobha. (Even so, if right mindfulness of lobha is to occur, it will be within the same billionth of a second -- almost immediately after its arising -- so there is no way of directing sati to take that cetasika (or anything else) as its object.) Is this how you see it? Kind regards, Ken H 28805 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 4:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Space element Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. I have studied that in formation of Rupa Kalapa, 4 Lakkhana Rupa and Akasa are not counted as components of Kalapa. I have a rough idea of space. Without which all will mix up. But in Rupa Kalapa, Akasa or space is not included. Am I wrong to take that? I am looking forward to hearing from you. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, >My question is ' Is space involved in Kalapa? ' >N: As I said, it is around all the groups, kalapas, of rupas, so that they are distinct. > In the Atthasalini it is explained in a conventional way to help us, the manifestation of space if what is hollow in the body, > cavity of the ear. > When we come to it in the Vis. study with Larry, we shall go deeper into it. > Nina. 28806 From: jonoabb Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 5:10am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53 Vism.EngPali.XIV, 49-53 49. 2. The ear [sensitivity] is to be found inside the [feature of the] ear-hole with its accessories in the place that is shaped like a finger-stall and surrounded by fine brown hairs. It is assisted by the elements in the way aforesaid. It is consolidated by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is maintained by life; it is equipped with colour, etc.; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for ear-consciousness, and the rest. 49. sasambhaarasotabilassa anto tanutambalomaacite a"ngulivedhakasa.n.thaane padese sota.m vuttappakaaraahi dhaatuuhi katuupakaara.m utucittaahaarehi upatthambhiyamaana.m aayunaa anupaaliyamaana.m va.n.naadiihi parivuta.m sotavi~n~naa.naadiina.m yathaaraha.m vatthudvaarabhaava.m saadhayamaana.m ti.t.thati. ++++++++++++++++++ 50. 3. The nose [sensitivity] is to be found inside [the feature of the] nose-hole with its accessories in the place shaped like a goat's hoof. It has assistance, consolidation, and maintenance in the way aforesaid; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for nose-consciousness, and the rest. 50. sasambhaaraghaanabilassa anto ajapadasa.n.thaane padese ghaana.m yathaavuttappakaarupakaarupatthambhanaanupaalanaparivaara.m ghaanavi~n~naa.naadiina.m yathaaraha.m vatthudvaarabhaava.m saadhayamaana.m ti.t.thati. ++++++++++++++++++ 51. 4. The tongue [sensitivity] is to be found in the middle of the [feature of the] tongue with its accessories in the place shaped like a lotus petal tip. It has assistance, consolidation and maintenance in the way aforesaid; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for tongue-consciousness, and the rest. 51. sasambhaarajivhaamajjhassa upari uppaladalaggasa.n.thaane padese jivhaa yathaavuttappakaarupakaarupatthambhanaanupaalanaparivaaraa jivhaavi~n~naa.naadiina.m yathaaraha.m vatthudvaarabhaava.m saadhayamaanaa ti.t.thati. ++++++++++++++++++ 52. 5. The body [sensitivity] is to be found everywhere, like a liquid that soaks a layer of cotton, in this physical body where there is matter that is clung to.[23] It has assistance, consolidation and maintenance in the way aforesaid too; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for body- consciousness, and the rest. 52. yaavataa pana imasmi.m kaaye upaadi.n.naruupa.m naama atthi. sabbattha kaayo kappaasapa.tale sneho viya vuttappakaarupakaarupatthambhanaanupaalanaparivaarova hutvaa kaayavi~n~naa.naadiina.m yathaaraha.m vatthudvaarabhaava.m saadhayamaano ti.t.thati. ++++++++++++++++++ 53. Like snakes, crocodiles, birds, dogs, and jackals that gravitate to their own respective resorts, that is to say, ant-hills, water, space, villages, and charnal grounds, so the eye, etc., should be regarded as gravitating to their own respective resorts, that is to say, visible data, and so on (cf. DhsA. 314). 53. vammikaudakaakaasagaamasivathikasa"nkhaatasagocaraninnaa viya ca ahisusumaarapakkhiikukkurasi"ngaalaaruupaadisagocaraninnaava ete cakkhaadayoti da.t.thabbaa. ++++++++++++++++++ Note 23. Upaadi.n.na (also upaadi.n.naka) is pp. of upaadiyati (he clings), from which the noun upaadaana (clinging) also comes. Upaadi.n.na-(ka-) ruupa (clung-to matter) = kammaja-ruupa (kamma-born matter); see Dhs. par.653. It is vaguely renderable by 'organic or sentient or living matter'; technically, it is matter of the four primaries that is 'clung-to' (upaadi.n.na) or 'derived' (upaadaaya) by kamma. Generally taken as a purely Abhidhamma term (Dhs., p.1), it nevertheless occurs in the Suttas at M.i,185 in the same sense. 28807 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 5:12am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Hi Ken H (and Htoo), If you both don't mind, I would like to jump into this conversation: Ken: When, for example, the meditator is trying to concentrate, the object of his consciousness is pannatti, not paramattha dhamma. So there is no satipatthana at that precise moment. James: This is not true. The meditator is not concentrating on pannatti, the meditator is concentrating on paramattha dhamma. It is a bare awareness of arising and falling phenomena, without cognition, and it is therefore concentration of paramattha dhamma. Who says that any attempt at concentration automatically involves cognition? The Buddha didn't say that and I personally haven't seen that in my vipassana practice. Ken: Presumably, you are saying that 'trying' can condition satipatthana to arise in a subsequent mind moment. Is there any evidence, anywhere in the Tipitaka, to support this theory? James: This isn't a `theory' of Htoo, this is what the Buddha taught. But since you want some proof of `trying' from the Tipitaka, here is some pretty strong proof: "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html Since `trying' is defined as: try (tr ) v. tried, (tr d) try•ing, tries (tr z) v. tr. To make an effort to do or accomplish (something); attempt: tried to ski. www.dictionary.com, I think this quote from the Buddha shows that trying is an important element of Buddhism. Metta, James 28808 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 5:14am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Dear Ken H, Thanks for your post replying to me. Some points are not clear to my knowledge but I try to my best and see them below,please. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --------- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: >Dear Htoo, >You'll remember I found it puzzling that you would advocate a > 'formal practice' of satipatthana. As we all know, > satipatthana takes a nama or a rupa as its object. Such > a phenomenon exists for less than one billionth of a > second; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H : it cannot be an object of the kind of concentration you and I are familiar with (that is, conventional concentration). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : I have to ask you why? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >H: > When the serious meditator is trying to concentrate > on his breath or at some point in his body, he may fail > to do so. He may miss recognizing his body positions. > ---------------- Ken H : We have to remember that the flood is not crossed by trying (or by not trying). When, for example, the meditator is trying to concentrate, the object of his consciousness is pannatti, not paramattha dhamma. So there is no satipatthana at that precise moment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Dear Ken H, I do not understand here what you meaned. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H : Presumably, you are saying that 'trying' can condition satipatthana to arise in a subsequent mind moment. Is there any evidence, anywhere in the Tipitaka, to support this theory? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Satipatthana is mental cultivation. With practice there is considerable changes in the way we live. This whole sentence is Pannatti. No Dhamma can be conditioned as they are Anatta Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > H: > However, we need to fight against this powerful > mental enemy ' craving '. > --------------- Ken H : As a conditioned nama, craving can be the object of satipatthana. So, rather than fight against it, right mindfulness will welcome lobha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Here, I do not understand your idea. Meditators are trying to tame their mind. They are trying to suppress their Lobha. They are trying to eradicate Lobha if possible. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H :(Even so, if right mindfulness of lobha is to occur, it will be within the same billionth of a second -- almost immediately after its arising -- so there is no way of directing sati to take that cetasika (or anything else) as its object.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : There is a difference. Not everyone is able to do so. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H :Is this how you see it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo :I am not clear what you asked exactly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Kind regards, > Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- With Metta, Htoo Naing 28809 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 5:21am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Dear James, Thanks for your discussion and link to ' accesstoinsight ' page. When you were writing your message I was trying to reply Ken H post. Thanks again for your effort. Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Ken H (and Htoo), > > If you both don't mind, I would like to jump into this conversation: >This, monks, is called right effort." >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html >Since `trying' is defined as: >try (tr ) v. tried, (tr d) try•ing, tries (tr z) v. tr. To make an > effort to do or accomplish (something); attempt: tried to ski. > www.dictionary.com, >I think this quote from the Buddha shows that trying is an important element of Buddhism. > Metta, James 28810 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 5:40am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear James, > > Thanks for your discussion and link to ' accesstoinsight ' page. When > you were writing your message I was trying to reply Ken H post. > Thanks again for your effort. > > Htoo Naing > I thought/sensed you might need a little help so I jumped in; glad you didn't mind. Metta, James 28811 From: Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 0:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Two to tango (was Re: Contraception and the First Precept) Hi, Herman (and Christine) - In a message dated 1/8/04 1:51:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Christine, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > >Hiya Herman, and all, > > > >Herman: The initial activity proceeds from the initial > >opinion, belief, judgement. How one dresses it up afterwards will > >not alter the initial activity. > >But I really wonder how kamma can play a role for one who suspends > >judgement? > > > >Christine: Good question. Suspending judgment would be living > >uncontaminated by ignorance/craving, comment/interpretation, > >identification/label, no? How would we live our daily life? Is it > >possible to choose to suspend judgement or has judging happened > >before we are even aware of it? Isn't there no control, no free- > >will? :-) :-) > > Yeah, I've heard that mentioned. And I'm sure I've said so myself. > But it is contrary to all experience. (I've probably changed my take > on this more times than I care to remember :-) That there is no self > that controls and no self that has free-will is quite different to > there not being control and free-will. Free-will is being exercised > at each moment. That the choices that are being made mostly have the > effect of perpetuating imprisonment within certain beliefs is > neither here nor there. There is no inbuilt necessity to see things > in any particular way at all, but the choice is made moment to > moment. The idea of self comes out of free will, free will does not > come out of self. > > Ask me again tomorrow, and it'll probably be different. > > All the best > > Herman > ============================= There is definitely will. I'm not clear, however, on what exactly is meant by "free" will. What exactly is such willing supposed to be free OF (or FROM)? When there is willing, I do believe that it is conditioned, that it arises for reasons among which are desires, and these desires, in turn, arise due to conditions. Do we mean that a choice is made not under duress, without being forced to choose a particular way by threats? If so, then, yes, often there is free will. But I don't think anyone will say that that is exactly what they mean by 'free will'? Is it not possible that we really don't know what we mean when we say "free will," and that it is more of a vague feeling than a well understood concept? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28812 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 7:16am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hello Ken. Ken: In my personal opinion, let discuss this on the basis on the commentary text and lets not put others writings into this discussion. Michael: Which commentary are you referring to? Any writings on the tipitaka is a commentary whether ancient or not. Metta Michael _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 28813 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 8:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Dear Michael B, Nina, Howard, Htoo, Enzir, James and all How are you? Happy New Year to Howard, Htoo, Enzir and James! Michael wrote: "1. Thanks for your effort. Not that it has produced many results because you preferred to leave many questions unanswered." Suan : Perhaps, my style of answering may not be to your liking. For example, you asked me to give you an abstract definition of what truth is. I answered that truth does not exist by itself on its own. Here is my question to you. Does the thing called truth exist independently of the paramattha dhammaa (real or actual phenomena that can be observed, experienced, and experimented)? Michael wrote: "2. But don't worry in providing those answers because it is quite clear to me what is the thinking of the ancient Theravada commentators." Suan: I doubt it very much. If you haven't read (at least some of ) those ancient Theravada commentaries, you are very unlikely to know their thinking and how they never deviated from the teachings of Gotama the Buddha. They are famously called, and accepted as, the orthodox followers of the Buddha for nothing! Michael also wrote: "3. You refrained from giving me a definition of paramatha but the article written by Karudanasa (I presume he is part of your list of trusted scholars – don't bother to answer) clearly shows what paramatha means:" Suan: No, I never refrained from giving you a definition of paramattha. Even though I did not quote from Pali sources, I did provide the qualities of paramattha dhammaa as follows. "Thus, the qualities that make something a paramattha phenomenon is 1. emergence when there are relevant conditions. 2. total disappearance when those relevant conditions disappear. Please also note that I describe anger as a phenomenon that emerges, instead of stating that anger "has" a real existence as though it were a container that contains something." So what was wrong with my definition? Do you agree with those defining qualities of a paramattha? Michael also wrote after quoting from Karunaadasa: "4. Those are quite straight forward explanations of what is a paramatha and paññatti. There are many words used in those quotes, like `own-nature,' `own-being,' `characteristic peculiar to a dhamma,' `distinctive intrinsic characteristic,' `existence,' `ontological ultimacy,' `truly existing thing,' `exists in a real and ultimate sense.' All those words only confirm to me what I knew already. Pointing to qualities that the dhammas posses that can only be explained by one attribute. If the dhammas are all that which has been described, they must have an essence, they exist from their own side, by their own power. But this interpretation is not in accordance with the suttas." Suan: So you like answers with big terms like "own-being", "ontological ultimacy" that confirm what you knew already. And then you accused Abhidhamma commentaries of not being in accordance with the Suttas. Ha Ha Ha! Now I know why you were disappointed with my answers. My answers did not confirm what you "knew" already, nor they allow you to accuse Abhidhamma commentaries of conflicting with the Suttas? But, my answers come from Abhidhamma commentaries! Amazing, isn't it? And then, Michael patronized as follows. "5. I said before and say again, there is no paramatha, no sabhava, in the suttas, and paññatti appears in the suttas but with a different meaning than the one used in the Abhidhamma commentaries. Those are all concepts invented by the Commentators. I am not discarding the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma is a good tool to understand human psychology but it is very poor in defining Buddhist philosophy." Suan: Your patronizing accusations like the above reminded me of an ostrich hiding its head in the sands. Assuming that you haven't read the standard Pali commentaries, those types of patronizing accuations should not be made before you have learnt to read advanced commentarial Pali. Hence, my previous advice to you that you do your homework! When you have adequate skills and patience and time to read the standard Theravada Pali commentaries, perhaps you might well be able and willing to revise your present position. Then Michael made further patronizing remarks as follows. "6. I have to say that from my point of view this thread is closed. I realized from recent messages that my observations have stirred up a lot of emotions. I don't want to upset people even more. For those who don't have a strong attachment to their views and want to better understand a philosophical stand which is closer to the teachings of the suttas I suggest to study the Madhyamaka philosophy. For those who have strong attachment to the views expressed by the Abhidhamma commentators, just remember that any strong attachment is a hindrance in the path." Suan: Many people on this list are Theravada Buddhists. The charactersitcs of Theravdins are their preservation, research, learning, and practicing of Pali TIPI.TAKA. Please note my emphasis on TIPI.TAKA with Capital Letters. Ti means three. Tipi.taka means the Three Collections of Gotama the Buddha's teachings, namely, Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma. What I am getting at is that Theravadins directly learn from Suttanta Pi.taka. As such, they do not need to study Madhyamaka philosophy so as to understand a philosophical standpoint which is CLOSER to the teachings of the SUTTAS. Please pay attention to CLOSER and SUTTAS. Michael, do you realize that you are advising the Theravadins who directly learn and follows Pali Suttas to opt for something that is merely CLOSER or APPROXIMATE to Suttas? Who said that the people with the wrong views (micchaadi.t.thi) could not come up with such laughable accusations and advice? Good luck with your second-hand Buddhist views! With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: Suan (and all,) May you all be happy and sorry for any disturbances that I may have caused. Metta Michael 28814 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 9:17am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Dear James, You have been very helpful. I really didn't mind that you jump in our discussion. Thanks again for that. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear James, > > > > Thanks for your discussion and link to ' accesstoinsight ' page. > When > > you were writing your message I was trying to reply Ken H post. > > Thanks again for your effort. > > > > Htoo Naing > > > > I thought/sensed you might need a little help so I jumped in; glad > you didn't mind. > > Metta, James 28815 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Whose Abhidhamma? ( Was:Re: Karunadasa - "Time and Space..) Dear James, there are many things you write I appreciate, and in the end I see that you think like me: the main thing: what will deliver me from dukkha, not the scholarship. I also see that you are openminded, keep an eye open to the Abhidhamma, you never know! James to Michael:< But I do agree with you that something is amiss in this group's overriding interpretation of these matters. Believe me, you haven't upset people like I have, you should read my "Rupa is Rubbish" thread! ;-))> Nina: I can really laugh now, James. Do not change your style. The rubbish is nothing, has fallen away. Sometimes you say things very straight and if people do not know you they take it amiss;-) But I can look through now. Also, there is mostly a little something to your words I can reflect on later, I find them quite sympathetic and understanding. But you cover it up with some jokes. Like what you said about Abhidhamma and people's emotional needs: yes, quite true: I find the Abhidhamma helps solving problems, but I also include the suttas. I always see the unity of the Tipitaka as a whole. But no more words now, you know already what I think. And then mini meditation as I said. With warm regards, Nina. op 07-01-2004 17:27 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > However, I am not really interested in > scholarship of Buddhism; I am interested in knowing what will deliver > me from dukkha (as I believe you are as well). I don't want to read > everything; I just want the `facts jack'! ;-). If there is more to > the Abhidhamma than what I presently know, which could be of > assistance in this regard, I will stick with it. 28816 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Bangkok Meeting Dear Chuck, Thanks for your nice mail and it is so encouraging to know that also lurkers find this list useful. What about unlurking for a while as a preparation for Bgk? Just one point you find important or an experience you had, it always interests people here, anything about daily life. Or something that you like to discuss in Bgk? People think too soon that what they write is not interesting, I find. Looking forward to meeting you, but hoping to hear from you before, Nina. op 08-01-2004 01:35 schreef Charles Thompson op dhammasaro@h...: > > A very warm thank you. > > Unfortunately, I am not that lucky Chuck. A real miss on my part. self> > > I do look forward to meeting you and all my many virtual friends from whom I > learned so much as your "lurker" member. 28817 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 10:11am Subject: Tiika Vis XIV, 60, 2 b Tiika Vis XIV, 60, in footnote 24, 2 b 2 b: Elaboration on Tiika text: And the teaching in the material-basis dyad (vatthu-duka) is given by way of the material support thus, "There is matter that is the physical basis of eye-consciousness, there is matter that is not the physical basis of eye-consciousness" (Dhs. 585) and so on; N: the eyebase (eyesense) is the physical basis of seeing-consciousness, it arises there. The same for the other sense bases, thus, these are five pairs. : not all rupas are the basis for eye-consciousness. Text: and if the dyads were stated by way of what had the heart-basis absolutely as its support thus, "There is matter that is the physical basis of mind-consciousness" and so on, then the object dyads (aaramma.na-duka) do not fall into line: for one cannot say: "There is matter that is the object of mind-consciousness, there is matter that is not the object of mind-consciousness". N: The Tiika deals here with the pairs of bases (vatthus) and of objects. In the Dhsg this is in the Matika, but the translator has left this out. All rupas can be the object of mind-consciousness, thus, one cannot say: "There is matter that is the object of mind-consciousness, there is matter that is not the object of mind-consciousness". I want to add more about aayatanas, sensebases to clarify this. There are 6 inward ayatanas: the five senses and citta (mind-base, which is not the heartbase, but which includes all cittas). There are 6 outer ayatanas: the five sense objects and dhammaayatana, including cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana. Heartbase is included in the subtle rupas. Thus, five inner and outer ayatanas form pairs, namely, the inward aayatana of eyesense and the outward aayatana of visible object, and so on. But the heartbase itself does not form a pair with citta. Text: So the physical-basis dyads and object dyads being thus made inconsistent, the teaching would lack unity. That is why the heart-basis is not mentioned, not because it is unapprehendable. [to be continued] N: I quote from the Co to the Yamaka (Abhidhamma): Good to remember when one believes that there are inconsistencies. ----------------- Nina. 28818 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Views along the way Dear James, Thank you for your kind letter. I was just in the process of writing to you on account of , since you made some pithy points I wanted to hook in with, but now I answer this first. op 07-01-2004 23:10 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > I am glad that you, and Sarah it seems, like my description of `mini- > meditations'; I do believe that they are real and can be accumulated; > like `a penny a day' as you state…very cute! ;-). And this may very > well be the proper method for the householder, I am not sure. > However, I have chosen to push onward and forward, at a very > accelerated rate, to find out the answers. My dedication is so > strong that at one point I was going to become a monk, but I think I > was born in the wrong time-frame for that. Oh well, I am sure you > will understand about that also. N: It was good you discovered in time that those temples were not the right place, and that is was I had heard too. Difficult to find a good temple. On the other hand, you have done many good deeds helping the temple so much near the place where you lived in the U.S.A. I was always happy to hear about what you did there, even helping with administration and cleaning up. J: As far as the fear aspect to my meditation, I don't know. I have > been reading contradictory things about that. I like what you > write, "On the other hand, understanding can condition the right > balance." That is probably true, my understanding is not strong > enough at this point so I continue to back down. I am not brave > enough yet I don't think. Perhaps with your help and encouraging > words some day I will be. N: I find it difficult what to say. I hear you say, I need meditation a lot because of my many defilements, but as to defilements, same, same. Everyone who studies the Dhamma more discovers that he has endless defilements. As Suan says, there is Dependent Origination everywhere, and I think of that often to understand myself and also others. We are all in the cycle, born because of ignorance, we all have the latent tendencies, so persistently adhering. As I often now discussed with Lodewijk, how powerful they are, uncontrollable, unforeseeable. We all need our own time for development and I believe this cannot be hurried. If we want to hurry, we may think that we progress, but in fact we go more slowly. This helps me to respect more other people's views, how could I convince them to what I think, impossible. I like to add in this letter that for me the Abhidhamma has to be very down to earth, not a philosophical or conceptual system, that does not help my life now. I want to learn more about what presents itself now. I was reading your kind letter, and immediately I was clinging, and conceit: my important personality, lifting a banner. There was appreciation and also akusala. Never all akusala, never all kusala. Sarah and I keep on reminding each other that it is all so common, that it is our study material (study in life!) and this makes me laugh too. Being upset, or clinging, I can really laugh about it. A good point for Bangkok! Even a beginning of satipatthana can help us to understand Abhidhamma, that is, realizing one's cittas more. Understandable that you were put off with Abhidhamma. Especially if you follow details as Larry and I study now. Details about rupa, and a way of reasoning which must seem complicated, with those dyads. It is very personal as to what extent an individual wants to study details, and also, can he step back in time milleniums of years to the past. Not at all necessary or even desirable for everyone. It is best if people find out whether there are some principles of Abhidhamma they find helpful for their own life, and whether these help them to understand the suttas. With appreciation, Nina. 28819 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 10:11am Subject: latent tendencies, 1 The Latent Tendencies. Introduction [1] This book is a translation from Thai of Bulletin II, of the ³Dhamma Study and Support Foundantion² which deals with the latent tendencies, anusayas. Since each citta that arises and falls away is immediately succeeded by the next citta, unwholesome and wholesome behaviour and inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and from life to life. The latent tendencies are unwholesome inclinations that are accumulated. They are the following: sense-desire (kåma-råga), aversion (patigha), conceit (måna), wrong view (diììhi), doubt (vicikicchå), desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavaråga), and ignorance (avijjå). It is essential to have more understanding of the latent tendencies and their power. They are called subtle defilements because they do not arise with the akusala citta, but they are powerful. Since they have not been eradicated they can strongly condition and influence our behaviour. They lie dormant in the citta like microbes infesting the body. So long as they have not been eradicated we are like sick people, because they can condition the arising of akusala citta when there are the appropriate conditions.They can condition the arising of akusala citta even to the degree of transgression of sila at any time, and thus, more defilements are accumulated again and added to the latent tendencies. The teaching of the latent tendencies helps us to see why the defilements in our life are so tenacious, arising again and again, and why their arising is unforeseeable and uncontrollable. When we study the enumeration of the latent tendencies, we should remember that these latent tendencies are not abstract notions. The latent tendency of sense-desire or sensuous clinging conditions akusala citta with attachment to any kind of pleasant object. We may have expectations as to kind words or praise from other people. This is selfish desire that has been deeply accumulated and is very powerful. The latent tendency of aversion conditions akusala citta with aversion, but we should know that this has many shades. It is not only a matter of hate or anger, but it also arises when we are upset or depressed because we do not receive the pleasant object we were hoping for. The latent tendency of conceit conditions the arising of akusala citta with clinging to the importance of self. It can arise on account of any object experienced through the six doorways, and it often motivates our speech and actions. All latent tendencies condition the arising of akusala citta, but because of the accumulated ignorance we do not notice their arising, we are deluded time and again. Through the Abhidhamma we come to know the deep underlying motives of our actions, speech and thoughts. We often deceive ourselves as to the motives of our actions, speech and thoughts that seem to be wholesome. In reality they are mostly directed towards our own gain, they are motivated by selfish desire. With a growing understanding of the latent tendencies that are powerful conditions for all akusala cittas in our life, we will be urged to be mindful of all realities, akusala included. By reflecting and being aware of whatever reality appears we can learn to become more sincere and truthful with regard to the cittas that arise. In this book there are quotations from the texts of the Tipitaka and Commentaries which deal with the latent tendencies and which explain in detail their characteristics and the way they are eradicated. ****** Issues 1: Are there latent tendencies? 2: What are the latent tendencies? 3: Can the latent tendencies be eradicated by the eightfold Path? ******* Footnote 1. I wrote this Introduction. Nina. 28820 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 11:34am Subject: Re: Angulimala Dear Robert, A definition of "Just" is 'The rendering to every one his due or right, just treatment, requital of desert, merited reward or punishment, that which is due to one's conduct or motives.' The definition of "vengeance" is 'retaliation for hurt or harm done to oneself or to a person whom one supports.' I am talking about 'justice', not vengeance. A country is a safe place to live in because its citizens can rely on being treated equally before the Law, and on being protected by the authorities. King Pasenadi was the head of the country of Kosala - responsible for the welfare of all those under his rule - and he wasn't doing too well - 999 people in a very small area had been murdered, by a person so vicious that even groups of up to twenty or thirty men were relentlessly killed. Whole towns had been de-populated. This is not a person who killed impulsively out of passion - this is a person so violent and pitiless that he could listen to the screams and begging of his victims and continue on and on through hundreds and hundreds of people. It is hard to kill a person, it isn't a clean, clinical exercise. When a person is dying in pain and fear, there are horrible sounds, sights and smells. This man wasn't deflected by anything - gotta make the quota. This story is not a fantasy in a book, a jataka, a morality tale, about a situation where people's reactions would be any different than if the incident was transferred into this day and age. If your children, parents, and wife had been murdered - because someone wanted their thumbs - a really important reason, eh? - but you were told the murderer was now 'kind', and had 'seen the light' - and the perpetrator wasn't going to be brought to account in any way - would you say 'Oh, he's kind now you say? bless 'im, that's all right then'. C'mon, Robert .... I always wondered why, if he wasn't enjoying the thrill of the kill, he didn't just say "Your thumb or your life?" - most people would have been reasonable... http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ay/angulimaala.htm And Angulimala was 'accidentally' hit by people only 'accidentally' throwing rocks and pots out the window? ... :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- > Dear Christine, > I guess one aspect is whether we think justice is related to > vengence. King Pasenadi was a disciple of Buddha and accepted the > Buddha's word that Angulimala was now of kind nature. Isn't that > enough; once a person changes why would you want to punish them? > > He did discover a vipaka-neutralising miracle: upon parinibbana > there is no more of the five khandhas and thus vipaka cannot arise. > One point, there is no mention in the texts, as far as I know of > anyone deliberately throwing anything at Angulimala. But because of > past kamma he would sometimes be accidently hit when someone threw > some rubbish out of the house or accidental things like that.. > RobertK > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > What is the relationship of Buddhism to Civil Law? I've always > been > > uncomfortable about the story of Angulimala. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn086.html > > He murders 999 people (my teacher made me do it), meets the > Buddha, > > joins the Sangha, and is not arrested, and not punished in any > way > > by King Pasenadi after he learns of his presence there. Are Monks > > exempt from due process? One rule for Lay and another for Ordained? > > 999 murders... Imagine the terror and agony of the victims. > Imagine > > the grief and suffering in the homes of thousands of people who > > loved the 999; Imagine the fear in whole communities. > > And what happens to Angulimala? He gets a cut on the head after > > being hit by a few rocks and clods thrown at him by the local > > people .. poor chap. Did he discover a secret vipaka-neutralising > > practice? He is protected from suffering the same fate as his > > victims. 28821 From: Charles Thompson Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 1:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Bangkok Meeting Okay, you asked for it. "What about unlurking for a while as a preparation for Bgk? Just one point you find important or an experience you had, it always interests people here,..." Ans: Becoming a monk, for four months, at Wat Thai DC in the area of Washington DC, USA. While there I was most fortunate to travel to Thailand as a bhikkhu for a month. I was at Wat Ampharan in Bangkok with my vice-abbot. To me being a monk was my most important experience. "...anything about daily life." Ans: On daily life, it is the simple example of most of the life-long Buddhist I met from Thailand. Their simple day-to-day good treatment of all people brought me to investigate Buddhism. To me they were living the Christian Way that I did not observe in my fellow Christians. "Or something that you like to discuss in Bgk?" Ans: Still working on that. Thanks again for the warm welcome. Your Texan amigo, Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Bangkok Meeting Dear Chuck, Thanks for your nice mail and it is so encouraging to know that also lurkers find this list useful. What about unlurking for a while as a preparation for Bgk? Just one point you find important or an experience you had, it always interests people here, anything about daily life. Or something that you like to discuss in Bgk? People think too soon that what they write is not interesting, I find. Looking forward to meeting you, but hoping to hear from you before, Nina. 28822 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 3:25am Subject: Ease Friends: At Ease in Peace: Always Happy -Yeah!- lives the freed Noble... Quenched, detached, unpolluted by any Lust Having Clinging through Mind Control released So Calmed at Ease one gains mental Peace. --ooOoo-- Sources: The gradual Sayings: Anguttara Nikaya [i 38] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/index.html The connected Sayings: Samyutta Nikaya [i 212] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html Sutta Nipata verse 612 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=201818 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.html All yours in the Dhamma. Peace is Ease. Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. 28823 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 1:42pm Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Hi Ken, I am rewriting some of the sentences you have written. Hope you don't mind. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > You'll remember I found it puzzling that you, with your > extensive knowledge of Abhidhamma, would advocate a > 'formal practice' of satipatthana. As we all know, As some of us have been taught and have accepted > satipatthana takes a nama or a rupa as its object. Such > a phenomenon exists for less than one billionth of a > second; some of us take such a phenomena to last less than a billionth of a second. There are others who acknowledge that events lasting less than one hundredth of a second do not register anywhere it cannot be an object of the kind of > concentration you and I are familiar with (that is, > conventional concentration). > some us have been taught and accept that it cannot be the object of concentration. Others have been taught it and do not accept it. There are still more permutations possible along these lines. > > We have to remember that the flood is not crossed by > trying (or by not trying). Some of us have been taught, and accept that trying or not trying is not possible. Others understand that one cannot remember things that are not known. When, for example, the > meditator is trying to concentrate, the object of his > consciousness is pannatti, not paramattha dhamma. So > there is no satipatthana at that precise moment. > some of us have digested so much theory that anything that is not experienced in terms of theory does not register and is not experienced. > Presumably, you are saying that 'trying' can condition > satipatthana to arise in a subsequent mind moment. Is > there any evidence, anywhere in the Tipitaka, to support > this theory? I would need to see what I believe you are saying written in a book that I like before I choose to accept it. > > As a conditioned nama, craving can be the object of > satipatthana. So, rather than fight against it, right > mindfulness will welcome lobha. > The fighting nama will become a welcoming nama if there is a mindful nama. > (Even so, if right mindfulness of lobha is to occur, > it will be within the same billionth of a second -- almost > immediately after its arising -- so there is no way of > directing sati to take that cetasika (or anything else) > as its object.) > > Is this how you see it? > > Kind regards, > Ken H The following is not a changing of your well-wishing or name. I quite like them :-) All the best Herman 28824 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 2:18pm Subject: [dsg] Two to tango (was Re: Contraception and the First Precept) Hi Howard, Christine and everyone, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Christine) - > > In a message dated 1/8/04 1:51:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, > hhofman@t... writes: > > > Hi Christine, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > > wrote: > > >Hiya Herman, and all, > > > > > >Herman: The initial activity proceeds from the initial > > >opinion, belief, judgement. How one dresses it up afterwards will > > >not alter the initial activity. > > >But I really wonder how kamma can play a role for one who suspends > > >judgement? > > > > > >Christine: Good question. Suspending judgment would be living > > >uncontaminated by ignorance/craving, comment/interpretation, > > >identification/label, no? How would we live our daily life? Is it > > >possible to choose to suspend judgement or has judging happened > > >before we are even aware of it? Isn't there no control, no free- > > >will? :-) :-) > > > > Yeah, I've heard that mentioned. And I'm sure I've said so myself. > > But it is contrary to all experience. (I've probably changed my take > > on this more times than I care to remember :-) That there is no self > > that controls and no self that has free-will is quite different to > > there not being control and free-will. Free-will is being exercised > > at each moment. That the choices that are being made mostly have the > > effect of perpetuating imprisonment within certain beliefs is > > neither here nor there. There is no inbuilt necessity to see things > > in any particular way at all, but the choice is made moment to > > moment. The idea of self comes out of free will, free will does not > > come out of self. > > > > Ask me again tomorrow, and it'll probably be different. > > > > All the best > > > > Herman > > > ============================= > There is definitely will. I'm not clear, however, on what exactly is > meant by "free" will. What exactly is such willing supposed to be free OF (or > FROM)? When there is willing, I do believe that it is conditioned, that it > arises for reasons among which are desires, and these desires, in turn, arise due > to conditions. Do we mean that a choice is made not under duress, without > being forced to choose a particular way by threats? If so, then, yes, often there > is free will. But I don't think anyone will say that that is exactly what they > mean by 'free will'? Is it not possible that we really don't know what we > mean when we say "free will," and that it is more of a vague feeling than a well > understood concept? > > With metta, > Howard > A great debate in physics in the early 20th century revolved around whether there could be a scientific theory that could predict any future state of affairs given a known state of affairs. Einstein et al firmly did not want to believe that "God could play dice". He approached the cosmos in a deterministic way. Bohr et al had no such predilection. Hence theories of relativity and quantum mechanics. It seems there is evidence both for and against both of them. I would reckon it to be very worthwhile to examine notions such as free-will, to find out what substance there is to them. I would start of by making the following points: 1] To say that something is conditioned does not mean to say that it is determined. 2] The notion of free-will comes from the experience of indeterminacy. All the best Herman 28825 From: Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 3:19pm Subject: Vism.XIV 60 (3 of 4) [Note 26. ' "The heart-basis ... the support for the mind-element and for the mind-consciousness element"; how is that to be known? (i) From scriptures and (ii) from logical reasoning.] '(ii) But the logical reasoning should be understood in this way. In the five-constituent becoming, [that is, in the sense sphere and fine-material sphere,] these two elements [mind element and mind-consciousness element] have as their support produced (nipphanna) derived matter. Herein, since the visible-data base, etc., and nutritive essence, are found to occur apart from what is bound up with faculties, to make them the support would be illogical. And since these two elements are found in a continuity that is devoid of feminity and masculinity faculties [i.e. in the Brahmaa-world], to make them the support would be illogical too. And in the case of the life faculty that would have to have another function, so to make it the support would be illogical too. So it is the heart-basis that remains to be recognized as their support. For it is possible to say that these two elements have as their support produced derived matter, since existence is bound up with matter in the five-constituent becoming. Whatever has its existence bound up with matter is found to have as its support produced derived matter, as eye-consciousness-element does. And the distinction "in the five-constituent becoming" is made on account of the mind-consciousness-element; in the four-constituent becoming, [that is, the immaterial sphere,] there is no mind-element. Does there not follow contradiction of the middle term (hetu) because of establishing faculties as their support? No; because that is disproved by what is seen. For these two elements are not, as in the case of eye-consciousness, controlled by the slackness and keenness,etc., of their physical basis; and accordingly it is not said in the texts that they have the faculties as their condition. Hence their having faculties as their support, in other words, their being controlled by them, is disproved. 28826 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 3:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Views along the way Hi Nina, Nina: It was good you discovered in time that those temples were not the right place, and that is was I had heard too. Difficult to find a good temple. James: Yes, it didn't take me long to figure out that the forest temple in Thailand was not a good place. I stayed there one night and left the next day. I follow my instincts. I am sure that there are good temples as you say, but they are difficult to find. My parents won't give me permission (something required by the Buddha) to go searching all over the world for a good temple. I had one shot and that was it: That is what I promised them. I guess it is my karma not to be a monk anyway; I don't think I am supposed to be tucked away somewhere in complete seclusion. I want to be out in the world, helping and learning from many people. Nina: On the other hand, you have done many good deeds helping the temple so much near the place where you lived in the U.S.A. I was always happy to hear about what you did there, even helping with administration and cleaning up. James: Yea, I hope that Wat Promkunaram is doing well. There are many good monks who come and go from that temple. I did not ordain at that temple, even though I am very close to it, because it is not the sort of temple where novices ordain. Nina: I find it difficult what to say. I hear you say, I need meditation a lot because of my many defilements, but as to defilements, same, same. Everyone who studies the Dhamma more discovers that he has endless defilements. James: I'm sorry Nina, but you hear me wrong. That is not what I have stated. Please allow me to explain, I meditate because I want to know the truth, not because I want to rid myself of defilements. I don't have the goal to become a `perfect person'…that is way too `goody-goody' for me! ;-)) Defilements are just something that stand in the way of knowing the truth, so in that sense I would like to get rid of them; but probably not completely, I am too attached to some of my defilements, they define who I am, so I am stuck in a dilemma. What to do?? I can't have my cake and eat it too!! ;-)) If my goal was just to rid myself of defilements, as if I didn't like myself, it would be easy to proceed at this point, but that is not the case. I like myself for the most part just fine…I just don't like not knowing the truth. But you can't have both, you have to drop one to have the other. To me dukkha is mainly ignorance: not knowing the truth. Oh well, we will see how it goes. I take it day by day. Nina: We are all in the cycle, born because of ignorance, we all have the latent tendencies, so persistently adhering. As I often now discussed with Lodewijk, how powerful they are,uncontrollable, unforeseeable. We all need our own time for development and I believe this cannot be hurried. If we want to hurry, we may think that we progress, but in fact we go more slowly. James: Yes and no. I don't believe in the thinking, expressed quite often in this group, that it must take several lifetimes to become enlightened. That is not what the Buddha taught. The Buddha taught that anyone, regardless of their number of defilements (even Serial Killers! As Christine has noted), can become enlightened in just one lifetime. All one needs to do is follow the path to perfection. There is one caveat emptor to this however: one can not have committed any of the five cardinal sins (Panchanandriya kamma): Killing an Arahant, Killing your mother or father, causing a split in the Sangha, or causing physical harm to the Buddha; otherwise if the practice is right it will take either seven years for a dull person, seven months for an average person, and seven days for a very bright person. But the practice must be consistently good and correct. Me? I would be lucky to have even seven minutes of good and correct practice over the years! ;-)) But then again, I don't have an arahant to teach me….that makes a big difference. Now it is just the blind leading the blind for the most part (though I do respect my teachers, they are not arahants). Nina: Understandable that you were put off with Abhidhamma. Especially if you follow details as Larry and I study now. Details about rupa, and a way of reasoning which must seem complicated, with those dyads. James: As an educator, I know that some people learn best by details and some learn best by understanding/seeing the big picture before the introduction of details. I am one who must see the big picture first or I don't learn well. I have been drowning in the details of this group for over a year now! ;-)). Perhaps I have a better understanding of the big picture in regards to Abhidhamma and perhaps I don't, but I don't think I will ever be enamored with details like you and Sarah and others here. It is just not my learning style or my interest. Metta, James 28827 From: ashkenn2k Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 5:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hi Michael I beg to differ. There is whole world of difference when we talk about ancient commentaries and present commentaries. Are present commentaries enlighted to make such comments. To present: No. To ancient: Yes. The Commentaries if I am not wrong, originated either in the 1st or 2nd or 3rd Council. Hence we have to stick to anicent ones bc they know and not the present ones. Modern commentators can clarify ancient commentaries but they cannot change the substance or meaning of the commentaries. Presently some of the modern commentaries I have so far come across either reject ancient commentaries (partially or totally) or they interpret commentatories on their own inclination. Furthermore your dispute in on the ancient commentaries comment, so we are discussing ancient ones and not present ones. Honestly IMHO I could not be bother about modern ones, when I read certain part of the article, I have stopped reading bc I know this professor has also made his own personal opinion. I only read those clarify the meanings and not impose their own meanings. Kind rgds Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Ken. > > Ken: > In my personal opinion, let discuss this on the basis on the > commentary text and lets not put others writings into this > discussion. > > Michael: > Which commentary are you referring to? Any writings on the tipitaka is a > commentary whether ancient or not. > > Metta > Michael > > _________________________________________________________________ > Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 28828 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 5:58pm Subject: Re: Angulimala --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, And Angulimala was 'accidentally' hit by people only 'accidentally' > throwing rocks and pots out the window? ... :-) ============= Dear Christine, I don't have access to the commentary right now but the main point was that he was occasionally hit by objects, but not becuase they were deliberately thrown at him. This abbreviated version on the web explains one incident. http://www.vipassana.info/h.htm Then, one day, while he was on an alms-round, he came to a place where some people were quarrelling among themselves. As they were throwing stones at one another, some stray stones hit Thera Angulimala on the head and he was seriously injured. Yet, he managed to come back to the Buddha, and the Buddha said to him, "My son Angulimala! You have done away with evil. Have patience. You are paying in this existence for the deeds you have done. These deeds would have made you suffer for innumerable years in niraya." Angulimala had in a past life been a man-eater, he had accumulations to savagery so that when his teacher asked him to kill his brutality had the opportunity to show itself. He also had great accumulations of wisdom so that when the Buddha spoke to him he could become enlightened. I think we are like him (minus the great wisdom part). When the opportunity arises we can do bad things. This life maybe we don't do so much, but a few lives from now we might become a hunter, or work in an abortion clinic, or as a butcher and kill every day? Samsara is like that. I think King Pasenadi was very wise to forgive Angulimala. Angulima was a monk, an enlightened one, he had goodwill to all and should have been given the greatest respect. If you could meet one such as Angulimala wouldn't it be wonderful to touch the ground with your head in front of him and worship. I just find the teachings on kamma and vipaka very compelling. So I think I can say if a murderer killed my family I would try to forgive him immediately. We don't have to look for justice or vengence because kamma gives its result. Instead we should should feel compassion for the killer : as they will experience the painful result of their actions in the future. RobertK > > A definition of "Just" is 'The rendering to every one his due or > right, just treatment, requital of desert, merited reward or > punishment, that which is due to one's conduct or motives.' The > definition of "vengeance" is 'retaliation for hurt or harm done to > oneself or to a person whom one supports.' > I am talking about 'justice', not vengeance. A country is a safe > place to live in because its citizens can rely on being treated > equally before the Law, and on being protected by the authorities. > > King Pasenadi was the head of the country of Kosala - responsible for > the welfare of all those under his rule - and he wasn't doing too > well - 999 people in a very small area had been murdered, by a person > so vicious that even groups of up to twenty or thirty men were > relentlessly killed. Whole towns had been de-populated. This is not > a person who killed impulsively out of passion - this is a person so > violent and pitiless that he could listen to the screams and begging > of his victims and continue on and on through hundreds and hundreds > of people. It is hard to kill a person, it isn't a clean, clinical > exercise. When a person is dying in pain and fear, there are horrible > sounds, sights and smells. 28829 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Space element Dear Htoo, op 08-01-2004 13:53 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > Thanks for your reply. I have studied that in formation of Rupa > Kalapa, 4 Lakkhana Rupa and Akasa are not counted as components of > Kalapa. I have a rough idea of space. Without which all will mix up. > But in Rupa Kalapa, Akasa or space is not included. Am I wrong to > take that? I am looking forward to hearing from you. N: Space is without its own distinct nature, asabhava rupa. Its function is delimiting the kalapas, and it is also called: pariccheda (boundary) rupa. It arises simultaneously with the different groups of rupa it surrounds. Space comes into being whenever the groups of rupa are produced by the four factors, and thus, it is regarded as originating from these four factors. Nina. 28830 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 59 Hi Larry, op 29-12-2003 00:39 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Does the life faculty maintain any consciounesses? N: We talked before about it that there is rupa-jivitindriya and nama-jivitindriya, which is a cetasika, one of the seven universals arising with each citta. Rupa-jivitindriya only maintains conascent kinds of matter, it does not maintain nama. L:What about the > formless realm? N: no rupa-jivitindriya. L:Is the life faculty the same for plants? N: See former post on plants. These are not produced by kamma, no life faculty. Nina. 28831 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty, explanation op 30-12-2003 06:14 schreef nina van gorkom op nilo@e...: > Dear Larry, This was in the wrong file and I am not sure I sent it before. Sorry for confusion. > some explanations of footnote 25. > note 25. 'Since the life faculty is itself entirely kamma-born it is > established, by taking them as conascent, that the things to be > protected by it are kamma-born too; this is why there is no inclusion of > the term "kamma-born". > N: The rupas conascent with life faculty are in one group that originates > from kamma. Thus there is no need to say that the other rupas that are > conascent are also originating from kamma. > > 'It maintains as if it were its own that > kamma-born matter by being the cause of its occurrence even though only > lasting for a moment; that is why it has the characteristic of > maintaining conascent kinds of matter. For kamma alone is not competent > to be the cause of kamma-born things' presence, as nutriment, etc., are > of the nutriment-born.' > N: Kamma is past kamma and is since long fallen away. But life-faculty > maintains the other rupas in the group originated from kamma. U Narada: does not relate by the force of production>, thus, it is not the same as the > way the factors of nutrition, heat and citta produce the other rupas in > their respective groups. These rupas produced by them are compared to a > child with the mother alive, maintained by physical life-faculty, is compared to the motherless child > maintained by a wet-nurse.> > > ' "Because it does accomplish each of those functions": it does so > because it is a condition for distinguishing what is living. For it is > the life faculty that distinguishes matter that is bound up with > faculties from dead matter, and kamma-born matter and what is bound up > with that from matter that is temperature originated, and so on.' > > N: Kamma-born matter is not only different from dead matter but also from > materiality produced by the three other factors of heat, nutrition, citta. > > 'And the life faculty must be regarded as the reason not only for > presence during a moment but also for non-interruption of connexion; > otherwise death as the termination of a life span would be illogical' > > N: The groups of rupa with life-faculty fall away but they are replaced > throughout life until death occurs. > Pm. 448). 28832 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty, swimmingpool meditation Hi Howard, I was delayed. About temperature, element of heat, see former post. About elements: "The dispeller of > delusion" under the classification of elements > "As regards pathavidhatu ("earth element") and so on, the meaning > of the element has the meaning of "nature" (sabhava) and the meaning > of nature has the meaning of "voidness" (sunna) and the meaning of > voidness has the meaning of "not a being" (nissatta). Thus it is the > element that is only earth element in the sense of nature, voidness > and not a being that is the earth element." op 30-12-2003 20:29 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Moreover, "dead matter" isn't a single rupa, is it? There must be much > here > that I am missing. N: All rupas that are not produced by kamma, citta, nutrition. We use the word dead matter to denote them, in Pali mata rupa. Mata is dead. >> N: Life faculty is a subtle rupa, it can be known only through the >> mind-door. It cannot be touched or seen. H: In what way is it known through the mind door? As a direct object of > mano-vi~n~nana (as a paramattha dhamma), or by inference (as a concept)? N: By insight wisdom this subtle rupa can be realized through the mind-door. When we at this moment think about it, we know only a concept, not this reality. H: I find > the notion of direct mind-door awareness (and not following upon a sense-door > process) perplexing, but very interesting. N: Even if there is no awareness, there can be, without there being first a sense-door process, a mind-door process of cittas which think of concepts. Why would there always be a sense-door process before a mind-door process. H:I know that awareness of the > "water element" (i.e. fluidity/cohesion) is said to fall into this category. N: Only through the mind-door. Nina. 28833 From: Eznir Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 9:12pm Subject: Re: Angulimala Dear Christine, This lifetime that we are now experiencing is just an example of the countless number of times we must have been rebecoming in the past, and its duration is just a wink of an eye when compared to that of a lifespan of a 100 years (I speculate)! Therefore we are judging the actions made by Arahat Angulimala in just this 'eye-wink' period. And it so happens that he became an Arahat too during this period, which would have been the result of his actions done in the past, ie., the period other than this 'eye- wink'period (samsara). As the Lord Buddha says that Kamma and it's retributions cannot be thought, since this whole 'life-span of 100 years - samsara' has to be seen (or to the extent that one is capable of seeing), we are not in a position to judge Arahat Angulimala's actions in just this period of his lifetime. That is why the Lord Buddha (who could see some 92 eons into his own past!), having seen the 'paramis' of Angulimala, interwined in the nick of time, before he could commit the murder of his own Mother to complete the 'finger-chain' of a 1000 fingers to fulfill the aspirations of his Teacher! As otherwise he would be condemned to a place of woe when he dies for committing one of the 5 unpardonable actions! What one could learn from this is that, even to one's own Teacher, one should pay wise attention, and not follow blindly just because he was one's Teacher! May you be happy! Eznir 28834 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 11:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction cum 1st posting on Truth & Paramatthas Dear Eznir, Welcome to DSG! --- rinze randeniye wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > I am new to your group and hope that our correspondence will benefit > mutually. I came across your group when browsing through the web. I > thought that I could be of use here. .... Looking at your two messages so far, I'm sure you can be of great use here;-) I particularly liked your comments on this lifetime being a mere 'wink of an eye' in samsara. I can tell that you have a lot of familiarity with the Buddha's teachings. ... > Please find my response to a posting by Kenneth. Sometimes my positings > are quite abrupt and precise! But rest assured they are written in good > faith and utmost sincerety .... Well, you've made a good start and we look forward to hearing plenty more from you. It's true that we greatly encourage courtesy and friendliness here, but there's no indication you'll have any difficulty. .... > K:"Truth is definitely subjective and relative, what you think is truth > and what I think may differ." > > Precisely! And the Truths that is being discussed here are those as seen > by Lord Buddha and his Noble Disciples. Therefore there will always be a > difference of opinions as long as we do not see the Dhamma as been seen > by Lord Buddha! > > When our differences in opinion narrows down and ultimately coincides > with that of Lord Buddha it is then that we understand and see the > Dhamma as it should be seen. .... All your points are good ones. If you feel inclined, we'd all be grateful for any other background you care to share with us, such as where you live or studied the teachings. Metta and thanks for posting, Sarah p.s DSG is backed up (not quite from the start) at: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ (Also useful for searches) Archives also backed up from the very beginning on word documents at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ (useful for searches and off-line reading,not quite up to date) ====== 28835 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 11:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Bangkok Meeting Dear Nina, Chuck & All, --- Charles Thompson wrote: > Dear Nina, et al > > A very warm thank you. > > Unfortunately, I am not that lucky Chuck. A real miss on my part. > .... ;-) I think I asked the same qu before as well, getting confused with 2 American Chucks in the group that visit Bkk. Nina, you may like to look at this helpful post Chuck T sent before: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12421.html .... > I do look forward to meeting you and all my many virtual friends from > whom I learned so much as your "lurker" member. .... We all look forward to meeting you too. Like Nina, I hope you de-lurk more in future too, but glad you learn so much;-) We're just in the process of finalizing our plans - we're going off to a beach for a few days beforehand, but will be back for all the discussion sessions with K.Sujin, Nina and everyone. Ken O, hope your plans are working out. RobK and Azita, sorry you can't make it this time. Metta, Sarah ====== 28836 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 11:46pm Subject: Satipatthana Hi everybody, A serious question to all, if I may. No need to reply if not inclined to do so, but please consider the question if inclined to do so. Is the intended audience for the satipatthana sutta the wordling as found on this list? Are the foundations of mindfulness cultivated while choosing the choicest fruit in the shops, getting cash out of the ATM, navigating through traffic on the streets, talking to friends, working for the boss, being involved involved in loving relationships etc. Or is the sattipatthana sutta intended for one withdrawn from the world? All the best Herman 28837 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 11:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question Re: Stage Hypnotism Hi Simon, It's good to see your post. --- dragonwriter2 wrote: > Hi, > Hypnotised subjects of stage hypnotism after the show often report > experiencing one of two responses. > > 1. Being totally aware of their actions but being unable to stop > themselves. > > 2. Total amnesia of the event that occured. > > How would the teachings of the Abhidhamma explain these responses > and stage hypnotism in general. ..... I don't have any answers except to say 'conditions, conditions'. In other words, as a result of various causes any kinds of strange or unusual results can occur in namas and rupas arising. For example, we're used to cittas while dreaming leading to sleep-walking and talking effects with either some kind of awareness or total amnesia afterwards. Sometimes we can guide the movements of these people verbally. We're also used to strange effects while taking drugs, under anaesthesia, for some in meditation or deep relaxation and so on. As James said, best not to be attached to special effects or responses but to understand any namas and rupas as conditioned by a variety of causes that only a Buddha can fully comprehend. I'm sorry that this probably isn't what you're looking for.Maybe others can help more. Hope to hear more from you. Metta, Sarah ======= 28838 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 0:03am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hi Michael. --- Michael Beisert wrote: >And one of the suttas that I have in the box of the ‘most > > liked’ is the Ambalatthikarahulovada Sutta – MN 61, where the Buddha > advises > his son Rahula on the criteria to decide if something is worthwhile > saying > (doing, thinking as well ) or not. And one of the criteria is not > causing > affliction to others. .... Yes, many good reminders in this sutta. .... > >Michael: > >Yes and no. On a person to person basis it is easier to gauge emotions > and > >know when it is wise to say something or just keep quiet. In a list it > is > >much harder. I try my best to use language in a way which is beneficial > to > >the listener as well. Not always successful I have to concede but I > try. In > >a list as I said it is harder. ..... I'm sure none of us get it right all the time, but I appreciate your efforts and considerations in this regard. Metta, Sarah ====== 28839 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samyutta Corner - Remedy for festive over-indulgence Hi Christine, James, Herman, Michael & All, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > For those who over-indulged in the holiday season - astute advice > from the lips of the Buddha. Don't you just love King Pasenadi? He > is so REAL, and if he could transport across two and a half thousand > years, he'd be so natural, just like the man next to you in the > supermarket line! .... ;-) He certainly shares all our mundane dullard difficulties. I’m following my hobby-horse and introducing SN3-11, Seven Ja.tilas (Bodhi transl), which follows on from the threads about judging others. King Pasenadi is very impressed by various ascetics included the matted hair ascetics (ja.tilas) and Jains that pass by. He goes to pay respects and tells them three times that he is King Pasenadi of Kosala. There’s no indication of whether they are impressed by him, but they soon pass on. Afterwards the King suggests to the Buddha that all those ascetics should be included amongst the arahants. The Buddha is certainly not impressed : “Great king, being a layman who enjoys sensual pleasures, dwelling in a home crowded with children, enjoying the use of Kaasian sandalwood, wearing garlands, scents, and unguents, receiving gold and silver, it is difficult for you to know: ‘These are arahants or these have entered upon the path to arahantship.’ “It is by living together with someone, great king, that his virtue is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard.” ***** He goes on to say that it is by dealing with someone, that his honesty is to be known with the same provisos, in adversities that a person’s fortitude is to be known and only by discussion that his wisdom is to be known. Finally, after a suggestion that the King’s spies might be considered as thieves, the Buddha recited these verses: “A man is not easily known by outward form Nor should one trust a quick appraisal, for in the guise of the well controlled Uncontrolled men move in this world. “Like a counterfeit earring made of clay, Like a bronze half-pence coated with gold, Some move about in disguise: Inwardly impure, outwardly beautiful.” ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 28840 From: connie Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 0:51am Subject: Re: Angulimala Hi Christine, CF: A definition of "Just" is 'The rendering to every one his due or right, just treatment, requital of desert, merited reward or punishment, that which is due to one's conduct or motives.' The definition of "vengeance" is 'retaliation for hurt or harm done to oneself or to a person whom one supports.' I am talking about 'justice', not vengeance. A country is a safe place to live in because its citizens can rely on being treated equally before the Law, and on being protected by the authorities. CP: A fine line sometimes when vengeance is built into the criminal code... the whole question of punishment vs reform. And our man was definitely reformed. I think the equal treatment before social law is nice in theory, but it doesn't work out that way. You can break the law countless times before you're caught and even then, the police can use discretion and look the other way or let you off with just a warning or make a deal with you to become a paid informant or or or... they might not have a good enough case against you, you get off on a technicality, you're pardoned, you're found guilty even though you didn't do it... blah, blah... it's not certain justice. The kamma cops might not get you right away, but you know they've got a nice case file. Angulimala is an extreme example and it does seem like he got away with it, but when you remember that most of our day is spent piling up more akusala than kusala, it's kinda nice to think that there's the possibility of tipping the scales and sliding off... otherwise, I believe that with the Dhammic Law, justice is certain... even if it might seem more capricious insofar as we don't know what kammas lead to what results or when. "What did I ever do to deserve this?" My daughter used to say "it's not fair" and didn't think it was funny when I'd tell her "it just is, fairs are for judging cows". Ideally, we shouldn't need to be protected by any outside human authority, but would all know that it's our own behavior and thinking that gets us. The idea of an outside agency/other, especially one as fallible as other humans, as the moral enforcer is something of a disservice in that respect. CF: King Pasenadi was the head of the country of Kosala - responsible for the welfare of all those under his rule - and he wasn't doing too well - 999 people in a very small area had been murdered, by a person so vicious that even groups of up to twenty or thirty men were relentlessly killed. Whole towns had been de-populated. This is not a person who killed impulsively out of passion - this is a person so violent and pitiless that he could listen to the screams and begging of his victims and continue on and on through hundreds and hundreds of people. It is hard to kill a person, it isn't a clean, clinical exercise. When a person is dying in pain and fear, there are horrible sounds, sights and smells. This man wasn't deflected by anything - gotta make the quota. This story is not a fantasy in a book, a jataka, a morality tale, about a situation where people's reactions would be any different than if the incident was transferred into this day and age. If your children, parents, and wife had been murdered - because someone wanted their thumbs - a really important reason, eh? - but you were told the murderer was now 'kind', and had 'seen the light' - and the perpetrator wasn't going to be brought to account in any way - would you say 'Oh, he's kind now you say? bless 'im, that's all right then'. C'mon, Robert .... CP: Hmmm... crimes of passion... special category... calls for a different kind of protection/justice than a cold-blooded one. True even under Dhammic Law... that intent thing. But what was in his mind? He was doing what his teacher required of him... back to the bomber pilot or whoever pushes the button and threatens my reality. I'm not sure how vicious he was. I don't remember reading how he killed, but some methods are quicker/more merciful than others. Interesting, I think, that he was Ahimsaka before he was But what's the difference in how dead someone is whether it's for a thumb or a fortune or just to see them dead... or even to liberate a country? And how long is dead when the consciousness leaves the puppet? And what is is we think we're protecting, really? I never used to understand my mother telling me not to hate the men who would beat her up and that I should feel 'bad' for them instead and it took a long time to figure that out... that we all have to live with ourselves and any time I hate someone, they probably couldn't care less even if they did know, but that I was hurting myself... all those things an enemy would wish upon an enemy that anger does. CF: I always wondered why, if he wasn't enjoying the thrill of the kill, he didn't just say "Your thumb or your life?" - most people would have been reasonable... http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ay/angulimaala.htm CP: Maybe there was some social stigma attached to having missing fingers from your right hand and some people's pride would've said, "I'd rather be dead"? In any case, they weren't screaming and giving him away to the posse if they were already dead... and wouldn't come back with their friends looking for him or describe him to the authorities, who weren't supposed to know who they were looking for. Maybe his teacher said they had to be dead? I always wondered why he couldn't take all the fingers off one hand, but if it was just thumbs, that answers that. CF: And Angulimala was 'accidentally' hit by people only 'accidentally' throwing rocks and pots out the window? ... :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- CP: two thumbs up, connie 28841 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: Samyutta Corner - Remedy for festive over-indulgence Hi Sarah, Nice Sutta, I am glad that you brought it up. I see that you paraphrased some parts to make it briefer, so is it okay if others follow suit? Some suttas can get rather lengthy. One small note: You wrote, "Finally, after a suggestion that the King's spies might be considered as thieves, the Buddha recited these verses:" This is not quite correct. What the sutta states is that after the Buddha told the King that one could not judge the ascetics by their appearance, the King rejoiced and revealed that those ascetics which had just passed were actually his spies in disguise who went into the land to gather information for him and that they were not true ascetics. The Buddha recognized this of course. So the King was kind of testing the Buddha I guess and he passed. Metta, James 28842 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 0:58am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Hi James, On the subject of 'trying to concentrate,' you wrote: ------------- > This is not true. The meditator is not concentrating on pannatti, the meditator is concentrating on paramattha dhamma. -------------- As Herman has pointed out, concentration, in the conventional sense, cannot grasp anything that lasts less than one hundredth of a second. So, if there is to be perception of dhammas, who is it that will do the perceiving? It cannot be you or I, in the conventional sense of 'living beings'; it can only be you or I in the ultimate sense -- of those same, fleeting paramattha dhammas. Only dhammas know dhammas. -------------- J: > It is a bare awareness of arising and falling phenomena, without cognition, and it is therefore concentration of paramattha dhamma. Who says that any attempt at concentration automatically involves cognition? -------------- Sorry James, I don't follow that. According to my understanding, every moment in time involves cognition (experience, consciousness). I had been suggesting that 'trying to concentrate' must involve thinking -- conceptualising. Have you ever tried to concentrate on breathing (or on some part of the body), and not had, at the same time, a concept of what you are concentrating on? Another point you took issue with was my assertion that 'trying' (and 'not-trying'), will never amount to satipatthana -- as explained in the Flood-crossing sutta we recently studied. You wrote: ---------------- > This isn't a `theory' of Htoo, this is what the Buddha taught. But since you want some proof of `trying' from the Tipitaka, here is some pretty strong proof: "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of ----------------- I know you haven't liked it in the past, but I am going to fall back on my standard reply: "The Dhamma is deep, profound, directly-understood only by the wise." The Buddha taught anatta and, in doing so, he taught a reality that is beyond the understanding of uninstructed worldlings. In the quoted case, where a monk generates desire, there is no monk and there is no concept of 'trying to generate desire;' there are only dhammas. Dhammas don't try; as mere, conditioned phenomena, they are indifferent -- uncaring. These fleeting, unsatisfactory, uncaring phenomena are the realities taught by the Buddha. In this sutta, he taught the reality known as samma-vayama, right effort. On the outside -- in the conventional world created by thinking -- there is a monk and it seems as if that monk has control over the arising or non-arising of right effort. You argue that this is the same reality the Buddha taught but it isn't. In other suttas, the Buddha has told us to see past the conventional language he employs. This is why we have Abhidhamma and commentaries; they enable us (intellectually, at least), to understand the conventional language of the suttas in a way that is consistent with the (unconventional) doctrine of anatta. ------------- J: > I think this quote from the Buddha shows that trying is an important element of Buddhism. ------------- The quote doesn't mention trying, it describes the arising, and the functioning, of right effort. There is a big difference. Kind regards, Ken H 28843 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 1:04am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Dear Htoo, Thanks for trying to make sense of my message. Did my reply to James clarify? That is, did it explain my reservations about 'conventional concentration' and about the efficacy of 'trying to meditate?' You also questioned my comments about lobha as 'an appropriate object of right mindfulness': ------------- > Htoo : Here, I do not understand your idea. Meditators are trying to tame their mind. They are trying to suppress their Lobha. They are trying to eradicate Lobha if possible. ------------- I think the supression of lobha was the aim of meditators prior to the Buddha's teaching but isn't that practice obsolete now? Vipassana, as you know, is very different from jhana. It takes any presently arisen dhamma as its object. If there is akusala citta with craving, then akusala citta with craving (or simply craving or any other present dhamma), becomes a potential object of vipassana. So there is need to suppress lobha. More to the point, there is no need to 'try' to have right mindfulness. It arises when the conditions are right. And those conditions do not include 'trying.' Please correct me if I am wrong. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Ken H, > > Thanks for your post replying to me. Some points are not clear to my > knowledge but I try to my best and see them below,please. > > 28844 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 1:15am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Hi Herman, ---------- H: > I am rewriting some of the sentences you have written. Hope you don't mind. ---------- Not at all. I think you've done a great job. ----------- KH : > As we all know, H: > As some of us have been taught and have accepted ----------- And are proud to admit it! :-) ----------- KH: > satipatthana takes a nama or a rupa as its object. Such a phenomenon exists for less than one billionth of a second; H: > some of us take such a phenomena to last less than a billionth of a second. There are others who acknowledge that events lasting less than one hundredth of a second do not register anywhere ----------- Are those 'others' Dhamma students? Or are they exclusively conventional-science students? (By the way, has an alternative duration-period, for paramattha dhammas, been suggested anywhere?) ------------ KH: > it cannot be an object of the kind of > concentration you and I are familiar with (that is, > conventional concentration). > H: > some us have been taught and accept that it cannot be the object of concentration. Others have been taught it and do not accept it. There are still more permutations possible along these lines. ------------- All right, but what did the Buddha teach? Isn't that all that matters? Who cares what Herman or Ken accepts or doesn't accept? No one! (apart from Herman or Ken) ------------- KH: > > We have to remember that the flood is not crossed by > trying (or by not trying). H: > Some of us have been taught, and accept that trying or not trying is not possible. Others understand that one cannot remember things that are not known. ------------ Do we remember the sutta in which 'crossing the flood' is taught? That would be a good start. ----------- KH: > When, for example, the > meditator is trying to concentrate, the object of his > consciousness is pannatti, not paramattha dhamma. So > there is no satipatthana at that precise moment. > H: > some of us have digested so much theory that anything that is not experienced in terms of theory does not register and is not experienced. ----------- Hmmm, that's one theory. I prefer to think that theoretical understanding leads to direct understanding (providing the theory is right). ----------- KH : > Presumably, you are saying that 'trying' can condition > satipatthana to arise in a subsequent mind moment. Is > there any evidence, anywhere in the Tipitaka, to support > this theory? H: > I would need to see what I believe you are saying written in a book that I like before I choose to accept it. ----------- Enough about accept/don't-accept; let's just learn what the Buddha taught. The trouble with you, Herman, is you think you have time. (Where have I heard that before?) :-) ----------- KH: > > As a conditioned nama, craving can be the object of > satipatthana. So, rather than fight against it, right > mindfulness will welcome lobha. > H: > The fighting nama will become a welcoming nama if there is a mindful nama. ------------ Well, that is a rewrite, but I'm not sure it's an improvement. :-) ------------- KH: > > Kind regards, > Ken H H: The following is not a changing of your well-wishing or name. I quite like them :-) All the best Herman ---------- Hooray! :-) Kind regards, Ken H 28845 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 1:15am Subject: Question Re: Stage Hypnotism Hi Simon, Since Sarah mentioned me in this post I am going to throw my two cents in. I didn't answer your original question because you asked about stage hypnotism in regards to the Abhidhamma. I am not an expert in that regard. In my opinion and limited experience, stage hypnotism is a complete fake. No one is really hypnotized to do things they can't control or can't remember. If you will watch carefully at the beginning of the hypnotist's routine, he or she, after supposedly hypnotizing everyone, people who have already volunteered to be hypnotized, will make various suggestions for them to follow. Those who don't follow these suggestions will be immediately dismissed from the stage for the supposed reason of being `hard to hypnotize'. No, in other words they wouldn't play along with the show after all. Those who remain are the exhibitionist types who don't mind doing crazy things for a laugh, especially if they don't have to be held accountable. There is also a certain amount of peer pressure and group dynamics at play. At the end the hypnotist will sometimes say that those involved will forget everything that happened, so when they are done they say they forgot everything that happened. But they really didn't. I had a student who participated in a stage hypnotism act, at the high school prom, who was in my drama club (a perfect candidate!). He did all kinds of crazy things and then told everyone that he couldn't remember what he had done. I got him alone at one point and told him to tell me the truth, which I wouldn't tell any of his friends, and he confessed to me that he knew and remembered everything that happened, and had complete control the whole time, but went along with it anyway because it was fun. So there ya go, it is a complete fake in my opinion. However, hypnotism to recall past lives, forgotten memories, and subliminal suggestions (like to quit smoking, etc.), in the privacy between a hyponist and a client, may not be a fake. There is much evidence to prove it to work, but not in all cases. Metta, James 28846 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 1:23am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/KenH Hiya KenH, (and Herman), Only one thing I don't understand in your reply to Herman - was that Hooray! as in Hooroo! ... or was that Hooray! as in Hurrah!? (Just a little joke for those of us living in the basement of the world:-)) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: <<>> > Hi Herman, > H: The following is not a changing of your well-wishing > or name. I quite like them :-) > All the best > > Herman > ---------- > > Hooray! :-) > Kind regards, > Ken H 28847 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samyutta Corner - Remedy for festive over-indulgence Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Nice Sutta, I am glad that you brought it up. I see that you > paraphrased some parts to make it briefer, so is it okay if others > follow suit? Some suttas can get rather lengthy. .... You're in charge;-) I think I'll have to paraphrase sometimes. I looked to see if I could find an on-line link but couldn't. .... > One small note: You wrote, "Finally, after a suggestion that the > King's spies might be considered as thieves, the Buddha recited these > verses:" This is not quite correct. What the sutta states is that > after the Buddha told the King that one could not judge the ascetics > by their appearance, the King rejoiced and revealed that those > ascetics which had just passed were actually his spies in disguise > who went into the land to gather information for him and that they > were not true ascetics. The Buddha recognized this of course. So > the King was kind of testing the Buddha I guess and he passed. .... Thank you very much for this good summary. I had skimmed through these vital lines which you have now clarified nicely. When I mentioned thieves, I was looking at the note 222 which gives a discussion of spies and thieves in different editions. I agree that the cryptic paraphrase was unclear and not quite correct. Metta, Sarah ====== 28848 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Extolling, disparaging & teaching Dhamma Hi Andrew, I’ve just got round to looking at this interesting sutta. --- Andrew wrote: > Hi folks > I have just read the Exposition of Non-Conflict (Aranavibhanga Sutta, > MN139)and found some aspects of the Buddha's exposition to the monks > perplexing. Maybe someone has some thoughts on these points: > 1. Buddha said "One should know what it is to extol and what it is to > disparage, and knowing both, one should neither extol nor disparage > but should teach only the Dhamma". This seems to imply that teaching > Dhamma never involves extolling or disparaging. The sutta gives > examples of extolling and disparaging which take the form of "those > who do X are on the right way" and "those who do Y are on the wrong > way". Teaching Dhamma takes the form of "the doing of X is a state > without suffering and it is the right way". > Was Buddha simply telling the monks that they should discuss/debate > doctrinal points in non-inflammatory language? .... He seems to be recommending not making the comments ‘personal’. I think it’s apparent, on DSG and in everyday life, that there’s a difference -- and an inflammatory/non-inflammatory one as you suggest -- between saying ‘you are wise/unwise’ and ‘such a pursuit or way is wise/unwise’. It would have been helpful for me to have read and considered this before one or two comments I made to my brother about lifestyles and so on. Still, mostly it wasn't too personal. .... >Or can we read > something deeper into this? Is this authority for the view that > Dhamma is purely descriptive rather than prescriptive [an oldie but a > goodie]? .... I think the ‘something deeper’ is that there truly is no self. No me or you that is wise/unwise, but various states and conditions which lead to different results. A description, as you say, of realities in effect. .... > 2. Buddha also said "one should not insist on local language, and one > should not override normal usage". This is explained along the lines > of, if I say "tomato sauce" and you say "ketchup", I should not > insist that only "tomato sauce" is correct. > That doesn't seem very profound, does it - and yet it is. Language > can be very divisive eg the battle in Norway earlier last century > between 2 dialects of Norwegian that saw people sacked for > pronouncing the word "snow" differently. I can only imagine that the > Sangha had a smattering of "grammar-dictators" at the time, people > who were attached to their language/dialect and wanted to impose it > on others? Flexibility helps condition non-conflict. Even on humble > DSG, I think, this can be displayed by not insisting on the use of > English or Pali terms, for example. .... Yes, obviously the message is more helpful if it is in language which is relavant to the listener. It can be difficult sometimes on DSG, I find. I may be writing to one friend in ‘tomato sauce’ language, but a ‘ketchup’ person is also reading and might object to the sauce. Sometimes I’m just in a rush or lazy and use what’s easiest at the time, ie namas and rupas without more ado;-) ... > I hope you have found these thoughts of interest. ... I’m also reflecting now on the one about how ‘the speech of one who speaks hurriedly is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and it is the wrong way.’ So often here, like now, I write hurriedly, make mistakes (as James just helped me with), and sometimes later can feel quite feverish if I find there are too many typos or other errors;-( “Here, bhikkhus, when one speaks hurriedly, one’s body grows tired and one’s mind becomes excited, one’s voice is strained and one’s throat becomes hoarse, and the speech of one who speaks unhurriedly is distinct and easy to understand.” Yes, this is what I need to remind myself about in my work and all my rushed activities. Many thanks, Metta, Sarah p.s Do you also have a copy of Samyutta Nikaya, Andrew? ===== 28849 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 3:36am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Hi Ken, Ken: As Herman has pointed out, concentration, in the conventional sense, cannot grasp anything that lasts less than one hundredth of a second. James: First, my impression is that Herman was teasing you, and the Abhidhamma to some extent. He is not to be taken seriously in this regard. Second, I am not going to debate if phenomena last one billionth of a second or one hundredth of a second, I think that is just plain silly. It doesn't matter and there isn't even modern equipment sophisticated enough to measure such events, do you think they had such equipment in the Buddha's time? (I am reminded of the Professor from `Gilligan's Island' who would always make outrageously sophisticated equipment out of some wires and coconut shells! LOL!;- ). Let me explain this in terms of my experience first and then later in this post I will quote from the Buddha. Phenomena arise and fall in various durations at various levels, like in layers. For example, the pyramids have been pretty much intact for over five thousand years but eventually they will pass away like everything else. However, even the pyramids are composed of phenomena which are arising and passing away by the second (or less). This same fact of life is true for the body and the mind as well. Some sensations in the body are gross and last for a long duration and can be easily known, but these gross sensations are composed of even finer sensations that arise and fall at a quicker rate and require more concentration to know (rupas). Also, the mind has moments and thoughts that are of a long duration and can be known quite easily, and these moments and thoughts are composed of even smaller moments that arise and fall that require more concentration to know (like cittas). It is not necessary to have the power of concentration to know each individual citta and rupa of the body at first, one should start with the gross sensations and thoughts. As the concentration becomes stronger and finer, like a microscope, the smaller moments can be known. Can these very fast arising and falling cittas and rupas be eventually known with concentration, even though that may last one hundred billion zillion quadrillionth of a second? ;-) Sure, how do you think they came up with that wonderful Abhidhamma? ;- ) Ken: So, if there is to be perception of dhammas, who is it that will do the perceiving? It cannot be you or I, in the conventional sense of 'living beings'; it can only be you or I in the ultimate sense -- of those same, fleeting paramattha dhammas. Only dhammas know dhammas. James: Correct! What is the problem? One practices from when it is a person knowing gross phenomena until it is only dhammas knowing dhammas. Ken: I had been suggesting that 'trying to concentrate' must involve thinking -- conceptualising. Have you ever tried to concentrate on breathing (or on some part of the body), and not had, at the same time, a concept of what you are concentrating on? James: Yes, each time I meditate, but it took years of practice to get to that point. That is what I mean by `bare awareness', there is no conceptualizing. Ken: I know you haven't liked it in the past, but I am going to fall back on my standard reply: "The Dhamma is deep, profound, directly- understood only by the wise." James: I don't recall you telling me this in the past but if you did, and it appeared like I didn't `like it' and responded negatively, I apologize. To me what you are strongly implying is that you are wise and that I am not. That is okay, I don't claim to be wise. Actually, I know that I am quite ignorant. I think that we all are quite ignorant. And if you think you are wiser than me, okay. No reason to take a vote on it! ;-)) I am just expressing my opinion, sharpening my mind with healthy debate, and keeping my interest in the dhamma strong and active. I am not trying to convince you or anyone of my wisdom (or lack thereof) Ken: The Buddha taught anatta and, in doing so, he taught a reality that is beyond the understanding of uninstructed worldlings. In the quoted case, where a monk generates desire, there is no monk and there is no concept of 'trying to generate desire;' there are only dhammas. Dhammas don't try; as mere, conditioned phenomena, they are indifferent -- uncaring. James: Do you realize that you are putting words in the Buddha's mouth? You are saying, "I know that this is what the Buddha said but this is not what he really meant. What he really meant is… blah, blah, blah." What? I cannot possibly respond to this. You asked for a quote to demonstrate `trying' in the Tipitaka, I provide you the quote and you state that it doesn't mean what it clearly states. What am I supposed to do now? I could just give up like Michael but I have some time on my hands today so let's trudge on! ;-) Ken: On the outside -- in the conventional world created by thinking - - there is a monk and it seems as if that monk has control over the arising or non-arising of right effort. You argue that this is the same reality the Buddha taught but it isn't. In other suttas, the Buddhahas told us to see past the conventional language he employs. This is why we have Abhidhamma and commentaries; they enable us (intellectually, at least), to understand the conventional language of the suttas in a way that is consistent with the (unconventional) doctrine of anatta. James: Yes, now that I more fully understand the Abhidhamma I will agree with you that it is an excellent method of understanding more clearly the two truths: the conventional truth and the ultimate truth. Unfortunately, the mistake you are making, and I don't think was intended by the framers of the Abhidhamma, is your thinking that conventional truth is false and that only the ultimate truth is true. This is not correct, THEY ARE BOTH TRUE!! Wrap your mind around that a bit and get back to me. ;-) Ken: The quote doesn't mention trying, it describes the arising, and the functioning, of right effort. There is a big difference. James: Again, you refuse to see the reality of the two truths. Let's take Howard's Tree for example, I could point to Howard's tree and tell you, "That's Howard's Tree" you would say, "No, that is a conglomeration of rupas processed by cittas." I would say, "Yeah, and it is Howard's Tree also." You would say, "No it is not and if you had more wisdom you would know it is not." And then I would have to string you up on Howard's Tree to show you how real it is! LOL! (Just kidding…really ;-)). Metta, James Ps. Oh, I forgot that quote by the Buddha about concentration I promised, here you go (not that it will do much good anyway, you think that he usually didn't REALLY mean what he said): "(3) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. (4) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging- aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04- 041.html 28850 From: Eznir Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 2:33am Subject: Ambalatthikarahulovada Sutta MN 61 Dear Michael & Friends! 28789\Michael: And one of the suttas that I have in the box of the `most liked' is the Ambalatthikarahulovada Sutta MN 61, where the Buddha advises his son Rahula on the criteria to decide if something is worthwhile saying (doing, thinking as well ) or not. And one of the criteria is not causing affliction to others. "How do you construe this, Rahula: What is a mirror for?" "For reflection, sir." "In the same way, Rahula, bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts are to be done with repeated reflection. "Whenever you want to perform a bodily/verbal/mental act..........., While you are performing a bodily/verbal/mental act................, Having performed a bodily/verbal/mental act........................," [Sutta MN 61] Michael, apart from the criteria of not causing affliction to others, what I observed in this Sutta is the technique adopted to realize that very same criteria or whatever that one may choose to correct or develope oneself from. Observe the three tenses involved- just before the act, while performing the act and having performed the act. There is a cyclic process involved here so that one may either suppress, abstain, maintain or develop one's actions the next time it is repeated. Life in general is cyclic in nature. This very cyclic nature of life is what enables a wise person to realize The Dhamma. It enables one to evolve from one's present miserable conditions to that of a Noble Person! This is what I see in the advice that The Lord Buddha was trying to impart to his 7 yr old son Rahula in that sutta! The technique, the mechanism with which one prise loose and abandons the bad actions (akusal) and maintains and develops the good actions (kusal). Be Happy eznir 28851 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 4:28am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Dear Ken H, Herman and all, Now I have got new words. Even though I have started this topic, the discussion goes in deviated way. Anyway, fighting nama, welcoming nama and mindful nama have been learnt. Thanks. Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > Hi Ken, > The fighting nama will become a welcoming nama if there is a mindful > nama. > > Is this how you see it? > > Kind regards, > > Ken H > The following is not a changing of your well-wishing or name. I > quite like them :-) > All the best > Herman 28852 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Space element Dear Nina, Thanks for your further clarification regarding space. Space is an interesting subject to discussed. Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, >N: Space is without its own distinct nature, asabhava rupa. Its function is > delimiting the kalapas, and it is also called: pariccheda (boundary) rupa. > Nina. 28853 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 4:43am Subject: Re: Satipatthana Dear Herman, Very good question. Satipatthana is for all those who want to get through the Samsara. They include worldlt people as well. But if worldly people become very serious on the practice, they will join the order of Sangha, which is better for them for their seriousness. For worldly people, Satipatthana does work to cut down unwholesome series of Citta to a considerable extent. When choosing fruit at a shop, if mindful Satipatthana works. At ATM, if mindful, Satipatthana works. Even at the time of having sex leaving the climax which is a long long series of Moha and Lobha mixed Cittas, Satipatthana may ( MAY ) work at least partly. Here Satipatthana need to be redefined. If Kayagata Sati is included then having sex will be no way to involve. If Sampajanna works, each stage of pleasure will be noticed leaving orgasm. As Satipatthana is aimed to avoid unwholesome things, choosing will behave differently from without Satipatthana. And so do in other examples that you have put up. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > Hi everybody, > > A serious question to all, if I may. No need to reply if not > inclined to do so, but please consider the question if inclined to > do so. > > Is the intended audience for the satipatthana sutta the wordling as > found on this list? Are the foundations of mindfulness cultivated > while choosing the choicest fruit in the shops, getting cash out of > the ATM, navigating through traffic on the streets, talking to > friends, working for the boss, being involved involved in loving > relationships etc. > > Or is the sattipatthana sutta intended for one withdrawn from the > world? > > All the best > > > Herman 28854 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 4:54am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Dear Ken H, We are in the mid of word. Trying is conventional trying. Arising is unconditional. That is no one can control this Citta arise, this Citta fall away. In this sense, trying does not involve. But as conventional trying, James coded The Buddha's words to his disciples. I got your point. I hope you also got my point. While trying( conventional ) is needed trying ( in Paramattha ) is not needed. ??? more confused? With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Htoo, It takes any presently arisen dhamma as its > object. If there is akusala citta with craving, then > akusala citta with craving (or simply craving or any > other present dhamma), becomes a potential object of > vipassana. So there is need to suppress lobha. > > More to the point, there is no need to 'try' to have > right mindfulness. It arises when the conditions are > right. And those conditions do not include 'trying.' > Please correct me if I am wrong. > > Kind regards, > Ken H 28855 From: Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Space element Hi, Nina, and Htoo, and all - In a message dated 1/9/04 12:22:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > N: Space is without its own distinct nature, asabhava rupa. Its function is > delimiting the kalapas, and it is also called: pariccheda (boundary) rupa. > It arises simultaneously with the different groups of rupa it surrounds. > Space comes into being whenever the groups of rupa are produced by the four > factors, and thus, it is regarded as originating from these four factors. > ========================= Under the assumption (which I don't make) that space is a rupa rather than a concept grounded in certain relations holding among rupas, and given, in particular, that it is an asabhava rupa (a further assumption that I don't make), it would be the one and only rupa not bearing its own nature. Does not the very word 'dhamma' signify something that carries its own nature? But, assuming that space is not mere concept, the fact that space doesn't arise except simultaneously and in mutual dependence with other rupas should not, in itself, it seems to me, justify the claim that it lacks nature of its own. There are many dhammas that arise simultaneously and in mutual dependence with (and inseparably from) other rupas that are nonetheless distinguishable, and thus that have their own nature in the sense of being distinguishable. Again, presuming that space is not mere concept, it *is* distinguishable, is it not, from other rupas? In particular, space is distinguishable (but inseparable) from the rupas that it delimits or encloses. It seems to me that that is enough, given that space is a dhamma, to correctly state that space has its own characteristics, making it a *sabhava* rupa. However, it isn't clear to me that space has only *one* characteristic as all good paramattha dhammas should have. Space, it seems, can be come in various "sizes", and, in response to the presence of large objects (and their gravitational fields the physicists say), space can have varying geometric configurations as seen in how objects moving "through" the space have their trajectories affected. Moreover, space encloses, but also it *is* enclosed. Space separates, but space also connects. Frankly, it seems to me that space is really a (well grounded) concept based on certain relations holding among certain groups of rupas, and not an asabhava rupa or even a rupa at all. What it is is a rupic concept. It is similar to time in that respect. Time, both psychological and the physicists' time, can grow and shrink, depending on conditions; it encloses and is enclosed; it separates, but also connects. (Time, however, is an even more general concept than space, because, while space relates rupas, time relates events of *all* sorts, namic as well as rupic.) Yes, I know that my understanding is not what Abhidhamma maintains about space, but I have to think for myself, and I have to look and see for myself what actually appears versus what *seems* to appear. With timeless and boundless metta ;-), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28856 From: Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty, swimmingpool meditation Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/9/04 12:24:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > I was delayed. > About temperature, element of heat, see former post. > About elements: > "The dispeller of > >delusion" under the classification of elements > >"As regards pathavidhatu ("earth element") and so on, the meaning > >of the element has the meaning of "nature" (sabhava) and the meaning > >of nature has the meaning of "voidness" (sunna) and the meaning of > >voidness has the meaning of "not a being" (nissatta). Thus it is the > >element that is only earth element in the sense of nature, voidness > >and not a being that is the earth element." > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, as will not surprise you, I rather like the foregoing! ;-) ------------------------------------------------- > op 30-12-2003 20:29 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > Moreover, "dead matter" isn't a single rupa, is it? There must be much > >here > >that I am missing. N: All rupas that are not produced by kamma, citta, nutrition. We use the> > word dead matter to denote them, in Pali mata rupa. Mata is dead. > > >>N: Life faculty is a subtle rupa, it can be known only through the > >>mind-door. It cannot be touched or seen. > > H: In what way is it known through the mind door? As a direct object of > >mano-vi~n~nana (as a paramattha dhamma), or by inference (as a concept)? > N: By insight wisdom this subtle rupa can be realized through the mind-door. > When we at this moment think about it, we know only a concept, not this > reality. > H: I find > >the notion of direct mind-door awareness (and not following upon a > sense-door > >process) perplexing, but very interesting. > N: Even if there is no awareness, there can be, without there being first a > sense-door process, a mind-door process of cittas which think of concepts. > Why would there always be a sense-door process before a mind-door process. > H:I know that awareness of the > >"water element" (i.e. fluidity/cohesion) is said to fall into this > category. > N: Only through the mind-door. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that's what I meant. --------------------------------------------- > Nina. > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28857 From: shakti Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 6:50am Subject: Bangkok Meeting Dear Chuck, Nina, Jon and Sara, I hope to meet you all in Bangkok in January but, am still not 100% sure that I can make it by the 29th. There is a chance that I won't be able to be there until the next week. Nina and Sara will you still be there the next week for Dhamma discussion???? I believe that is Feb 7th and 8th? Hoping to see you soon. Shakti Sarah wrote: Dear Nina, Chuck & All, --- Charles Thompson wrote: > Dear Nina, et al > > A very warm thank you. > > Unfortunately, I am not that lucky Chuck. A real miss on my part. > .... ;-) I think I asked the same qu before as well, getting confused with 2 American Chucks in the group that visit Bkk. Nina, you may like to look at this helpful post Chuck T sent before: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12421.html .... > I do look forward to meeting you and all my many virtual friends from > whom I learned so much as your "lurker" member. .... We all look forward to meeting you too. Like Nina, I hope you de-lurk more in future too, but glad you learn so much;-) We're just in the process of finalizing our plans - we're going off to a beach for a few days beforehand, but will be back for all the discussion sessions with K.Sujin, Nina and everyone. Ken O, hope your plans are working out. RobK and Azita, sorry you can't make it this time. Metta, Sarah ====== 28858 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 7:09am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hello Ken, I respect your point of view but just keep and open mind that you could be completely wrong. Have a look at Canki Sutta - MN 95 - How to preserve the truth. You did not answer my question, in our discussion which is the commentary you refer to? Metta Michael >From: "ashkenn2k" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O >Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 01:08:24 -0000 > >Hi Michael > >I beg to differ. There is whole world of difference when we talk >about ancient commentaries and present commentaries. Are present >commentaries enlighted to make such comments. To present: No. To >ancient: Yes. The Commentaries if I am not wrong, originated either >in the 1st or 2nd or 3rd Council. Hence we have to stick to >anicent ones bc they know and not the present ones. Modern >commentators can clarify ancient commentaries but they cannot change >the substance or meaning of the commentaries. Presently some of the >modern commentaries I have so far come across either reject ancient >commentaries (partially or totally) or they interpret commentatories >on their own inclination. > >Furthermore your dispute in on the ancient commentaries comment, so >we are discussing ancient ones and not present ones. Honestly IMHO I >could not be bother about modern ones, when I read certain part of >the article, I have stopped reading bc I know this professor has also >made his own personal opinion. I only read those clarify the >meanings and not impose their own meanings. > > > >Kind rgds >Ken O > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > wrote: > > Hello Ken. > > > > Ken: > > In my personal opinion, let discuss this on the basis on the > > commentary text and lets not put others writings into this > > discussion. > > > > Michael: > > Which commentary are you referring to? Any writings on the tipitaka >is a > > commentary whether ancient or not. > > > > Metta > > Michael 28859 From: Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Space element Hi again, nin, Htoo, and all - In a message dated 1/9/04 9:37:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > However, it isn't clear to me that space has only *one* characteristic > as all good paramattha dhammas should have. ========================== I should have written 'distinguishing' before the word 'characteristic'. There are other characteristics that are not distinguishing - in particular the tilakkhana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28860 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 9:40am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hi Michael If we read the sutta, traditions should be broken if and only if they do not support the eradications of unwholesome roots. This is like the Kamala suttas, but both sutta should be seen in the context that traditions or teachings that do not follow the path. If we keep insisting on basing traditions can be broken, then it would mean that everyone can do what they want, everyone can change the rules of the Sangha and create one that they like and anyway this is what happening now in some places. Even Buddha in one sutta support tradition, in PariNibbana Sutta where he said why one country will never be conquered and one of the criteria is that they follow their tradition. In the commentary to the PariNibbana sutta, have the statement like "They do not abrogate the established" and also "the ancient custom of Vajjis and the kings do their duty according to their tradition" I am only talking about ancient commentaries (those compile by Buddhaghosa). I have not seen those compile by him is against the path. I would like to request you to give me an example of it. Since your stand on sabhava is based on commentary and I think it is only fair that you provide evidence in the commentary that supports sabhava has an own self and uncaused. best wishes Ken O --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Ken, > > I respect your point of view but just keep and open mind that you > could be > completely wrong. Have a look at Canki Sutta - MN 95 - How to > preserve the > truth. > > You did not answer my question, in our discussion which is the > commentary > you refer to? > > Metta > Michael > > 28861 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 10:42am Subject: Latent tendencies 2 Latent tendencies 2 Chapter 1 Are there Latent Tendencies? Conclusion of the first Issue : there are latent tendencies: they are realities each with their own distinct characteristic. The reasons for this conclusion: I: The latent tendencies are subtle defilements which are realities each with their own characteristic. They are enumerated in the Tipiìaka and the Commentaries, where it is stated that the Buddha, the Fully Enlightened One, understood these by his perfect knowledge of beings¹ biasses and underlying tendencies (åsayånusaya ñåna). The ³Knowledge of beings¹ biases and underlying tendencies² is mentioned in the ³Path of Discrimination² , ³Patisambhidåmagga² of the Khuddaka Nikåya, in the Måtika (Table of Contents), among the seventythree kinds of knowledge. These latent tendencies are further explained in its Commentary, the ³Saddhammappakåsiní² under the Explanation (Niddesa) of Knowledge of beings¹ biasses and underlying tendencies (åsayånusaya ñåna). The ³Path of Discrimination², in the Måtika, mentions the ³Knowledge of beings¹ biases and underlying tendencies² as the sixtynineth kind of knowledge among the seventythree kinds of knowledge. This knowledge is not shared by disciples, it is only the Buddha who has this knowledge. We read in the ³Path of Discrimination²: ³There are seventythree kinds of knowledge and among these the first sixtyseven are shared by disciples. The last six are are not shared by disciples but are exclusively knowledges of the Buddha. These are: penetration of others¹ faculties, knowledge of beings¹ biases and underlying tendencies, knowledge of the twin metamorphosis, knowledge of the great compassion, omniscient knowledge and unobstructed knowledge [2] .² The Commentary to the ³Path of Discrimination² gives more explanations about the knowledge of beings¹ biases and underlying tendencies. As to the word ³beings² we read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (III, Khandhavagga, Ch XXIII, § 2, A being) that beings are involved in sensuous desire (chandha råga) with regard to the khandha of material phenomena and so on, and that they are thus called beings, sattå [3]. The text states that the Buddha said to Rådha: ³That desire, Rådha, that lust, that lure, that craving which is concerned with body,- one is entangled thereby, fast entangled thereby, therefore is one called a being. That desire, that lust, that lure, that craving which is concerned with feeling, with perception (saññå), the activities, consciousness,- one is entangled thereby, fast entangled thereby, therefore is one called a being.² Footnotes: 2. The penetration of others¹ faculties is the Buddha¹s knowledge of other people¹s capabilities or their lack of it to develop understanding which can penetrate the four noble Truths. His knowledge of the twin metamorphosis is his ability to perform the miracle of emitting water and fire from different parts of his body. His knowledge of the great compassion is the compassion which moved him to become the Sammåsambuddha and teach others to develop the wisdom leading to liberation from the cycle of birth and death. 3. Satta is derived from sant, existing. It can mean who exists in the cycle, or who is entangled. So long as one is entangled in the five khandhas there is no end to the cycle. **** Nina. 28862 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 60 (3 of 4) note 3 a Larry, >Footnote, 3 a. Elaboration. (to be followed by 3 b, 3 c) op 09-01-2004 00:19 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: [Note 26. ' "The heart-basis ... the support for the mind-element and for the mind-consciousness element"; how is that to be known? (i) From scriptures and (ii) from logical reasoning.] Text: (ii) But the logical reasoning should be understood in this way. In the five-constituent becoming, [that is, in the sense sphere and fine-material sphere,] these two elements [mind element and mind-consciousness element] have as their support produced (nipphanna) derived matter. N: The heartbase is among the derived rupas, it is produced by kamma. The Commentator points out in the following paragraph which of the rupas do not qualify for being the heart-base, the support of the mind-element and the mind-consciousness element. Text: Herein, since the visible-data base, etc., and nutritive essence, are found to occur apart from what is bound up with faculties, to make them the support would be illogical. N: colour, sound etc. and also nutritive essence (one of the eight inseparables) are also in what we call dead matter, in what is not a living body (bound up with the faculties). Text: And since these two elements are found in a continuity that is devoid of feminity and masculinity faculties [i.e. in the Brahmaa-world], to make them the support would be illogical too. N: These do not qualify, because in the rupa brahma planes there is no sex faculty, but there are these two elements. Text:And in the case of the life faculty that would have to have another function, so to make it the support would be illogical too. So it is the heart-basis that remains to be recognized as their support. For it is possible to say that these two elements have as their support produced derived matter, since existence is bound up with matter in the five-constituent becoming. Whatever has its existence bound up with matter is found to have as its support produced derived matter, as eye-consciousness-element does. N: eye-consciousness-element has the eyebase as its support. **** Nina. 28863 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Views along the way Dear James, op 09-01-2004 00:42 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: I am too attached to > some of my defilements, they define who I am, so I am stuck in a > dilemma. What to do?? ..... I just don't > like not knowing the truth. But you can't have both, you have to > drop one to have the other. N: I think you can have both. There would be no need to make such choice. Knowing the truth includes knowing our defilements. The second noble truth, craving, is just now. It needs patience to develop, but you are not attracted to traversing many lives ;-) By the way, the expression about a penny a day is what Khun Sujin told Sarah and me years ago. It impressed me so much. J: To me dukkha is mainly ignorance: not > knowing the truth. Oh well, we will see how it goes. I take it day > by day. N: I agree, because of ignorance we were born and go on in the cycle. Day by day: I could not agree more. > James: As an educator, I know that some people learn best by details > and some learn best by understanding/seeing the big picture before > the introduction of details. N: Good tip. I want to consult Larry and Sarah. This can be taken care of by not losing the connection with daily life, and Larry is after daily life. After all, we want to know the truth about what is going on in daily life, not some abstract truth. Then we could get lost into the theory. Although, just now, we take a good plunge into conditions, and this does not harm. To me it is a help to begin to uproot that persistent self idea. With metta, Nina. 28864 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Bangkok Meeting Dear Chuck, thank you for telling about your experience of being a monk. > > Ans: On daily life, it is the simple example of most of the life-long > Buddhist I met from Thailand. Their simple day-to-day good treatment of all > people brought me to investigate Buddhism. To me they were living the > Christian Way that I did not observe in my fellow Christians. N: Yes, we can always learn from them, they are giving, and giving and giving. And so fast in their reactions when help is needed. I noticed that during my frequent journeys with them in India. Receiving is also an art and some people feel ashamed when so much is given to them. We can receive with kusala citta: appreciating other people's generosity and that is one way of dana: anumodana dana. I hope you will unlurk more often, Nina. 28865 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 10:42am Subject: good point for Bgk Dear Sarah, This may be a good point for Bgk we can discuss among ourselves. Lodewijk looks with pleasure at his antiques, I like it too. We think, this is harmless. I just read ahead in the Latent Tendencies text that also when not prepossessed by objects, when lobha is more subtle, the accumulation of the latent tendencies continues. Just like the smell thief! I like to hear more about this way of accumulating, never enough. It gives something of a shock. But it is as it is, how to prevent this, impossible. We can also accumulate understanding. Still, I think by more understanding of the latent tendencies and how they operate, right effort (this is a sense of urgency) comes in without having to force it. This is the right effort James quoted and the Buddha spoke about. Good to discuss more, Nina. 28866 From: Eddie Lou Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Angulimala Hi, everyone, Excuse me for jumping in, Killing is indeed a big deal, but remember our life in human realm is only a short while compared with the long life span in some other realms. So much so is the difference that, murder is a big thing but not that catastrophic when you see the bigger picture. But I was told - killing one's own parents is a REALLY big deal, that negative kammic repercussion is totally inevitable. Look at Mogallana's case of matricide and patricide. He definitely had to repay them (debts?) before he went to the ultimate destination - Nirvana. I asked why so heavy a penalty ? I was told - Karuna (or closest meaning ? maybe - sincere and unconditional care, metta and love of parents. Yes, Angulimala killed 999 lives but the final one to make to his goal of 1,000 fingers was (corret me if I m incorrect) one of his own parents. At that point, Sakyamuni Buddha (still living at that time) intervened bc he knew Angulimala was this close to Arahantship and eventually - Nirvana. If Angulimala did kill his parent, Buddha knew, he would lost his big chance. I heard Buddha always helped the extreme cases, the near the edge case like Angulimala, who already has accumulated a lot of parami's mostly likely from previous lives). When Angulimala became an Arahant(the last stage to Nirvana), there is no turning back to any wrong doing. In fact, killing an Arahant, itself carries almost similar penalty as killing parents. Unfortunately, we live in a world well dominated with idea of punishment and we are more or less influenced. Metta, Eddie Lou. --- connie wrote: > Hi Christine, > > CF: A definition of "Just" is 'The rendering to ..... > CP: two thumbs up, > connie 28867 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 11:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Angulimala Hi Christine, Rob K, Connie, and Eddie, I've been following the Angulimala thread, and I think Christine you brought up an interesting and complex point of discussion regarding justice. Rob K, Connie, and Eddie you all have some very good points. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Lou wrote: > Hi, everyone, > > Excuse me for jumping in, > > Killing is indeed a big deal, but remember our life in [snip] 28868 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 1:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hello Ken, Ken: If we keep insisting on basing traditions can be broken, then it would mean that everyone can do what they want, everyone can change the rules of the Sangha and create one that they like and anyway this is what happening now in some places. Even Buddha in one sutta support tradition, in PariNibbana Sutta where he said why one country will never be conquered and one of the criteria is that they follow their tradition. In the commentary to the PariNibbana sutta, have the statement like "They do not abrogate the established" and also "the ancient custom of Vajjis and the kings do their duty according to their tradition" Michael: I said before and let me clarify this again, I have difficulties in accepting some teachings expressed in the commentaries to the Canon but I have never negated the teachings of the suttas, quite the contrary. But in my view some of the commentaries to the Canon negate the teachings of the suttas. I said this many times and say again, in the suttas there is no teaching about paramatha/sabhava. Did the Buddha say that the first noble truth is that there are paramatha? And that the fourth truth is the way to fully and directly understand paramatha, and that this understanding will provide an end to suffering? No, definitely not, there is no paramatha coming from the mouth of the Buddha. And in defense of the commentators it has been argued that already at the time of the Buddha his disciples were giving teachings and interpretations of brief utterances by the Buddha. This is correct but in many instances those teachings by his disciples were confirmed by the Buddha. Which is not, of course, the case with Budhaghosa. In the first years when I got in contact with Buddhism I was fully immersed and absorbed with Theravada doctrine and interesting enough I had exactly the same views in relation to paramatha/sabhava as the ones generally expressed in this list. Fortunately though I met some challenges to my beliefs which at that time I found really hard to accept. But it raised some doubts in my mind and pursuing the answers to those doubts I came across some interpretations which only brought me closer to the suttas and pointed towards the distortions in the commentaries. Ken: I am only talking about ancient commentaries (those compile by Buddhaghosa). I have not seen those compile by him is against the path. I would like to request you to give me an example of it. Since your stand on sabhava is based on commentary and I think it is only fair that you provide evidence in the commentary that supports sabhava has an own self and uncaused. Michael: In the Kaccayanagotta Sutta (SN XII.15) the Buddha talks about the world and how people view the world. He says that usually people see the world as either existing or not existing. And then he provides his view of the world which is dependent origination. It is quite clear from this sutta that the Buddha is rejecting the notion of existence/non existence in favor of conditionality. And it becomes quite clear that existence and conditionality is not the same thing. Conditionality means that the thing depends entirely upon conditions for its existence. And by extension if something depends entirely upon conditions it cannot have any form of intrinsic/inherent substance in it, in other words it has to be devoid of essence. Because by definition an essence is not subject to conditions, otherwise it would not be an essence. Now if the Buddha is favoring conditionality and rejecting existence, it can only mean that the existence he is referring to is intrinsic/inherent existence. Now, paramatha and sabhava means ultimate existence with intrinsic nature (or own unique characteristic which leads to the same conclusion as intrinsic nature). The simple fact that something is considered to be ultimate implies some form of unique, own attribute, which points towards an essence. If it doesn’t have that how can it be ultimate? So, what I see is that the commentators have led the Theravadins to believe that a phenomena can be at the same time an ultimate reality, which has to have, by definition, some form of intrinsic nature, and at the same time be subject to conditionality. The problem is that this is impossible. Either a phenomena truly exists or it is subject to conditionality, and if all phenomena are subject to conditionality then we are left with just conventional reality. The world has no ultimate realities only conventional realities. And conventional reality is the same as conditionality. That is what the Buddha said in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta. Metta Michael 28869 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 2:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok Meeting Hi Shakti, --- shakti wrote: > Dear Chuck, Nina, Jon and Sara, > > I hope to meet you all in Bangkok in January but, am still not 100% sure > that I can make it by the 29th. There is a chance that I won't be able > to be there until the next week. Nina and Sara will you still be there > the next week for Dhamma discussion???? I believe that is Feb 7th and > 8th? Hoping to see you soon. .... We have to return to HK on Sunday, Feb 1st, so hope you can make it to join the first weekend with several days of discussion, esp. 29th all day.Remember to start your list of topics too or start mentioning them here for me to jot down as I am for Nina's and mine;-) Nina will be away on a trip during the week, but will be back in Bkk w'end of 6th, 7th. I don't know about any arrangements for that weekend and whether there will be English discussion. Sundays are usually Thai only and sometimes the first Saturday of the month too. You'd need to check with Betty or someone else. Do you have anything more to discuss about death or attachment to children? Metta, Sarah ======= 28870 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 2:36pm Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/KenH Hi Christine, --------- C: > Only one thing I don't understand in your reply to Herman - was that > Hooray! as in Hooroo! ... or was that Hooray! as in Hurrah!? > --------- I take your point: any reader who lacked mind-reading capabilities would have trouble with that remark. Herman had made an amusing comment to the effect that his signing off should not be mistaken as a rewrite of my signing off. (After rewriting most of my post, he saw no need to rewrite the sign-off.) Hoping to match his wit, I wrote, "At least I got something right!" Then I thought that might be misinterpreted as a complaint of some kind, so I tried to lighten it up with; "Hooray, I got something right!" Still not happy, I shortened it to; "Hooray!" -- which, I now concede is completely meaningless -- a classic case of over-editing. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 28871 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 3:50pm Subject: Re: Angulimala Hi Christine, What I don't like about a "just" world is that it can never come to an end. Each action must forever be met with a just reaction. And good and bad become axes that strive against each other into eternity. What would be a fair, just, merited recompense for a psychopath with 999 notches on his belt? I very much like the concepts of mercy, grace and forgiveness because they are so counter-justice, counter-kamma. I may have a rock in hand ready to hurl at the head of one who has caused me tremendous loss, grief, pain. But then out-of-the blue, there can be an undetermined choice to forgive, to suspend a judgment, and a whole eternity of kammic consequence collapses into nothingness. I think it was Connie who pointed out that the holding of a grievance, or the attribution of guilt does not hurt anyone but the person doing it. I find it rather sobering to think that notions of justice propel samsara along, rather than do anything to diminsih it. Still, I say so from the comfort of my Australian armchair, not from a Palestinian pile of rubble. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > A definition of "Just" is 'The rendering to every one his due or > right, just treatment, requital of desert, merited reward or > punishment, that which is due to one's conduct or motives.' The > definition of "vengeance" is 'retaliation for hurt or harm done to > oneself or to a person whom one supports.' > I am talking about 'justice', not vengeance. A country is a safe > place to live in because its citizens can rely on being treated > equally before the Law, and on being protected by the authorities. > > King Pasenadi was the head of the country of Kosala - responsible for > the welfare of all those under his rule - and he wasn't doing too > well - 999 people in a very small area had been murdered, by a person > so vicious that even groups of up to twenty or thirty men were > relentlessly killed. Whole towns had been de-populated. This is not > a person who killed impulsively out of passion - this is a person so > violent and pitiless that he could listen to the screams and begging > of his victims and continue on and on through hundreds and hundreds > of people. It is hard to kill a person, it isn't a clean, clinical > exercise. When a person is dying in pain and fear, there are horrible > sounds, sights and smells. This man wasn't deflected by anything - > gotta make the quota. > > This story is not a fantasy in a book, a jataka, a morality tale, > about a situation where people's reactions would be any different > than if the incident was transferred into this day and age. > If your children, parents, and wife had been murdered - because > someone wanted their thumbs - a really important reason, eh? - but > you were told the murderer was now 'kind', and had 'seen the light' - > and the perpetrator wasn't going to be brought to account in any way - > would you say 'Oh, he's kind now you say? bless 'im, that's all > right then'. C'mon, Robert .... > > I always wondered why, if he wasn't enjoying the thrill of the kill, > he didn't just say "Your thumb or your life?" - most people would > have been reasonable... > http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ay/angulimaala.htm > > And Angulimala was 'accidentally' hit by people only 'accidentally' > throwing rocks and pots out the window? ... :-) > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > 28872 From: Andrew Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 3:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Extolling, disparaging & teaching Dhamma Hi Sarah Thanks for your interesting post. I had a giggle about it, actually. Whilst everyone else seems to be discussing the fine points of parramattha dhammas armed with dictionary.com definitions, poor Sarah is kind enough to reply to my less-verbally-generative posts, replete with allusions to Scandinavian history! [Not entirely irrelevant given that a Buddha statue was found in a Viking settlement in Sweden - you can see it in a Stockholm museum] As to the true nature of dhammas, I hold my views with a very loose grip - just as a blind man holding an elephant's tail perhaps has some indication that he is in the presence of something extremely powerful that should not be grasped tightly and rigidly. Anyway, back to Non- Conflict: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > > ... > I'm also reflecting now on the one about how `the speech of one who speaks > hurriedly is a state beset by suffering, vexation, despair, and fever, and > it is the wrong way.' > > So often here, like now, I write hurriedly, make mistakes (as James just > helped me with), and sometimes later can feel quite feverish if I find > there are too many typos or other errors;-( > > "Here, bhikkhus, when one speaks hurriedly, one's body grows tired and > one's mind becomes excited, one's voice is strained and one's throat > becomes hoarse, and the speech of one who speaks unhurriedly is distinct > and easy to understand." > > Yes, this is what I need to remind myself about in my work and all my > rushed activities. > It is very practical advice indeed. The quote seems to suggest that hurried speech leads to excited mind. Yet, "mind is the forerunner of all things". Is it not that excited mind leads to hurried speech leads to more excited mind? > p.s Do you also have a copy of Samyutta Nikaya, Andrew? Yes, I do - am reading it through slowly. Metta Andrew > ===== > > > 28873 From: Carl Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 4:00pm Subject: Re: Howard's tree and a little hint ..Continuation of Pannatta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Carl, > > --------snip--snip--many snips :)---------------------------------- ------------------------ >Htoo: It is wrong to say, ' the true nature of the *outside world* >is unknowable. Functions of Cittas and Cetasikas are to know both >outside world and inside world. > > Carl: Yes, I think I understand this at some level. But I remain > perplexed. If the *worldly/conventional* vision of "the tree" is > produced in the mind, as I have assumed, then there must be a gap > (time/distance) between the inside and the outside world? If there > is such a gap/separation then the outside world can never be > directly experienced even though it is really out there. But > perhaps if I come to understand "the tree" as actually appearing > directly on or about the eye, then I may understand a direct > contact of some kind with "the tree" with no gap? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo : There is a gap for nearly all. Here I must ask you what do you mean by ' directly '? > 5 senses sense the outside *world* directly. Even the 6th sense can sometimes directly senses the outside *world*. >With Metta, > > Htoo Naing -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Dear Htoo, thank you again for all the good information. By "directly" I mean in the same sense you describe above;(5 senses sense the outside *world* directly.). My perplexity is found in the process of transfering visual data from outside to inside. First arriving at the eye sense-door this worldly data (color) is then transfered (via cita process)to seeing-consciousness (Cakkhuvinnana Citta). I would think that the color-data recieved by the inside seeing- consciousness is but a representation of the original outside sense- door color-data. Perhaps similar to viewing an excellent forgery of a masterpiece painting. So I am left to conclude that the color-data (rupa) originating from the outside world is not at all the same data that is experienced by seeing-consciousness. We have gone from a paramattha dhamma to pannatti. It is in this sense that I say ...."the true nature of the *outside world* is unknowable." I also rush to say (perhaps rather foolhardy :) ) that this same thinking seems to apply to all 5 senses and is even supported by modern biology. ..Now I am surely in hot water!! Please pardon any misuse of terms or my lack of understanding. And many appologies to Howard's tree. The Abhidamma is a most fertile field and grows many strange plants. I am often caught looking up instead of down and trip regularly. http://science.howstuffworks.com/eye1.htm ...The retina contains a chemical called rhodopsin, or "visual purple." This is the chemical that converts light into electrical impulses that the brain interprets as vision. The retinal nerve fibers collect at the back of the eye and form the optic nerve, which conducts the electrical impulses to the brain.... Thanks Carl 28874 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 9:01pm Subject: The Triple Happiness! Friends: The Three kinds of Happiness: When recognising the Noble Path as Freedom one gradually acquires 3 kinds of Happiness: The Happiness of Fault-Free Innocence caused by absence of regrets & remorse. The Happiness of Calmed Tranquillity caused by absence of restlessness & agitation. The Happiness of Awakened Enlightenment caused by elimination of mental fermentation by penetrative understanding. Source: The Path of Freedom. Vimuttimagga by Arahat Upatissa; 1st century AC . http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=404208 All yours in the Dhamma. Peace is Ease. Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ 28875 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 1:39am Subject: The Good Friend. Friends; The Noble Friend! The Buddha said: Friends, one should cultivate the Good Friend, who has the Seven Qualifications. What Seven ? He gives what is hard to give. He does what is hard to do. He bears what is hard to bear. He lay open his own secrets. He keeps other's secrets safe. When any is needed, he never fails. When one is ruined, he never despises. Even though he may drive you away, keep on following him, since such Noble one - always motivated by the welfare of all beings - is genial, pleasant, serious, refined, a revealer, of profound speech, a patient listener who never - at any occasion - guide you wrongly ... --oo0oo-- Source: The Gradual Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya IV 32-5 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=204050 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/index.html All yours in the Dhamma. Peace is Ease. Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ 28876 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 5:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hi Michael and all, I would like to share some reflection on the discussion/debate in this thread: It is hard to convince those who hold the Abhidhamma views as what the Buddha to discard these views. It is also hard to convince those who have discarded the Abhidhamma views as not what the Buddha taught to take up these views and hold them as what the Buddha taught. So when two people, one holds the Abhidhamma views as what the Buddha taught and one has discarded them as not what the Buddha taught, try to convince one aother, it often leads to stress, agitation, resentment, affliction....in both parties. And that defeats the very purpose of learning and practicing the Dhamma - to realize the cessation of dukkha. I came across to this discourse and thought that the Buddha's instruction Others will misapprehend according to their individual views, hold on to them tenaciously and not easily discard them;[18] we shall not misapprehend according to individual views nor hold on to them tenaciously, but shall discard them with ease -- thus effacement can be done. in Majjhima Nikaya 8 Sallekha Sutta The Discourse on Effacement http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn008.html can be helpful to both parties. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Ken, [snip] 28877 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 5:29pm Subject: Re: Angulimala Hello Robert, and all, Thank you for your post. I agree that all of us have the capacity to do the unthinkable, that lying dormant within each of us is the potential for unlimited good and evil. I know that when conditions are favourable, seemingly out-of-character thoughts and deeds can surface, astounding us and leading to the thoughts - 'what was I thinking of? how COULD I have done such a thing?' - easier to say 'the devil made me do it'. Thanks, Rob, for the link to the Dhammapada story of Angulimala - my understanding is that the Dhammapada was not preached by the Buddha in the form we currently read it. Narada says that three months after the Passing Away of the Buddha, those who assembled at the First Convovation to rehearse the Teachings of the Buddha, collected some of his poetic utterances, arranged and classified the treatise in its present form, naming it the Dhammapada. The circumstances that led to the verses (the Stories) are presented in the form of long or short stories, in the voluminous commentary written by Buddhaghosa nearly a thousand years later. I find the story attached to the verses unconvincing - if we think of the stories as slightly unreal things happening within a movie or a book, then most can be swallowed without too much difficulty - like the Jataka Tales of talking rabbits and dogs. But when looking for truth and reasons behind human behaviour, one of the tests I make is to transpose what is related to one's own city and neighbourhood (within reason, of course). Then the Angulimala story doesn't quite come up to scratch. Take his mother, for instance. Clearly she knows where he is and what he is doing. Does she and the family intervene at any stage? Say after the first, second, third or ninety-sixth murder? Only when she hears that the King is taking an army to capture him, does she make a move. She wouldn't speak up to stop her husband evicting him, but traipses into the forest by herself to warn him. A little unbelievable. What a dysfunctional cast of characters! - The class-mates get jealous and make up stories about Angulimala and the Teachers' wife. The Teacher doesn't call everyone together or even speak to his wife, just believes the slander. He expells Angulimala, and says he'll take him back if he kills a thousand people and brings back their thumbs. (A lot of highly intelligent people in this story :-)) Angulimala's father then tosses him out because he was expelled from school. Does anyone go to see the Teacher? Where was the love for Angulimala then? What were his parents and his other relatives doing when he was picking off the population one by one? Talking over the breakfast table? "Did you hear, dear, Angulimala is 497 not out? Oh, the lad is doing well isn't he?" The mother seems just a literary device meant to give a reason for the Buddha's intervention and thus the whole story. And has anyone given any thought to just how much a thousand thumbs weigh, and what amount of space they'd take up hanging round his neck? A little hard to pounce on anyone when you're bent almost double with the weight of the bones and flesh hanging in front of you. Apart from likely slipping into unconsciousness from the toxic fumes rising.... And one wonders how he handled the packs of stray dogs that surely launched attacks after following the 'interesting aroma' pervading the neighbourhood? The behaviour of just about everyone concerned doesn't ring true. Maybe Buddhaghosa, great scholar compiler and translator that he undoubtedly was, didn't know much about people and human psychology and interaction? I hear what you say about good vipaka accumulated from many past lives outweighing 999 murders - hard to conceive of such a thing though. Also - if conditions were right for Angulimala to become an arahant than nothing could have stopped it. King Pasenadi, though, had nothing to forgive. His parents, wives, children were not mentioned among the dead. But he did have a duty as 'father' of the citizens of his country. He appears to have done far too little, far too late. Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on some of the Dhammapada stories. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Robert, > And Angulimala was 'accidentally' hit by people only 'accidentally' > > throwing rocks and pots out the window? ... :-) > ============= > Dear Christine, > I don't have access to the commentary right now but the main point > was that he was occasionally hit by objects, but not becuase they > were deliberately thrown at him. > This abbreviated version on the web explains one incident. > http://www.vipassana.info/h.htm > Then, one day, while he was on an alms-round, he came to a place > where some people were quarrelling among themselves. As they were > throwing stones at one another, some stray stones hit Thera > Angulimala on the head and he was seriously injured. Yet, he managed > to come back to the Buddha, and the Buddha said to him, "My son > Angulimala! You have done away with evil. Have patience. You are > paying in this existence for the deeds you have done. These deeds > would have made you suffer for innumerable years in niraya." > > Angulimala had in a past life been a man-eater, he had accumulations > to savagery so that when his teacher asked him to kill his brutality > had the opportunity to show itself. He also had great accumulations > of wisdom so that when the Buddha spoke to him he could become > enlightened. I think we are like him (minus the great wisdom part). > When the opportunity arises we can do bad things. This life maybe we > don't do so much, but a few lives from now we might become a > hunter, or work in an abortion clinic, or as a butcher and kill > every day? Samsara is like that. > > I think King Pasenadi was very wise to forgive Angulimala. Angulima > was a monk, an enlightened one, he had goodwill to all and should > have been given the greatest respect. If you could meet one such as > Angulimala wouldn't it be wonderful to touch the ground with your > head in front of him and worship. > > I just find the teachings on kamma and vipaka very compelling. So I > think I can say if a murderer killed my family I would try to > forgive him immediately. We don't have to look for justice or > vengence because kamma gives its result. Instead we should should > feel compassion for the killer : as they will experience the > painful result of their actions in the future. > RobertK 28878 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 5:35pm Subject: Re: Angulimala Hello Connie, Herman and all, Thanks for your posts. Connie - "Ideally, we shouldn't need to be protected by any outside human authority, but would all know that it's our own behavior and thinking that gets us. The idea of an outside agency/other, especially one as fallible as other humans, as the moral enforcer is something of a disservice in that respect." Chris: I think kamma and vipaka are often confused, and one can equate action and result, ending in determinism or fatalism. I understand that the Buddha said that if one must reap the result of all actions then there is no possibility to realise liberation. I also understand that kamma is only one of the causes of what we experience in the world, not the only cause. Happy to be corrected. Connie: "But what's the difference in how dead someone is whether it's for a thumb or a fortune or just to see them dead... or even to liberate a country? And how long is dead when the consciousness leaves the puppet? And what is is we think we're protecting, really?" Chris: I'm not sure what others might say. The infinitesimal chance of ever having another human rebirth during this aeon, and so having a chance to hear the Dhamma and win through to liberation, should be a strong motivation to protect one's own life and the lives of others. Regarding Angulimaala's real name. Bhikkhu Bodhi says MA states his given name was Ahimsaka, meaning "Harmless", but the commnentary to the Theragaathaa says his original name was Himsaka, meaning "Dangerous". Herman, Justice isn't about punishment only. Justice isn't about one action being the reaction to another action. I don't know what is. (We're not talking about a flare up of bad temper here, - there were 999 murders.) Justice is also concerned with Community, and with setting right as far as possible, much of what has been damaged by the original wrong-doing - which is one of the reasons behind my question. "What is the relationship of Buddhism to Civil Law?" This would include - in the case of the 999 murders - comforting the grief-stricken, assisting broken families who are suffering economic hardship, bringing home the families to their depopulated villages, allaying the pervasive fear of the citizens, restoring lost economic prosperity, assisting to bring back to production neglected farms, caring for the widowed and orphaned, and giving short term food and practical assistance where needed. In other words, encouraging confidence in the citizens that there is someone responsible at the helm of government, that each one of them is of valued and of equal importance and entitled to the care and protection of the State. In the commentary story, are there any indicators that Angulimala, King Pasenadi or the Sangha even gave those things a thought? But, Angulimala achieved enlightenment? - ah, well .. that's all right then. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > What I don't like about a "just" world is that it can never come to > an end. Each action must forever be met with a just reaction. And > good and bad become axes that strive against each other into > eternity. > > What would be a fair, just, merited recompense for a psychopath with > 999 notches on his belt? > > I very much like the concepts of mercy, grace and forgiveness > because they are so counter-justice, counter-kamma. I may have a > rock in hand ready to hurl at the head of one who has caused me > tremendous loss, grief, pain. But then out-of-the blue, there can be > an undetermined choice to forgive, to suspend a judgment, and a > whole eternity of kammic consequence collapses into nothingness. > > I think it was Connie who pointed out that the holding of a > grievance, or the attribution of guilt does not hurt anyone but the > person doing it. I find it rather sobering to think that notions of > justice propel samsara along, rather than do anything to diminsih > it. > > > Still, I say so from the comfort of my Australian armchair, not from > a Palestinian pile of rubble. > > > All the best > > > Herman 28879 From: Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 2:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hi, Victor - In a message dated 1/9/04 8:33:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Others will misapprehend according to their individual views, hold > on to them tenaciously and not easily discard them;[18] we shall not > misapprehend according to individual views nor hold on to them > tenaciously, but shall discard them with ease -- thus effacement can > be done. > ========================= That's beautiful, Victor! Better than being "right" is, most definitely, being FREE! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28880 From: Andrew Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 8:35pm Subject: Re: Angulimala Hi Christine In your job especially, you come across all sorts of dysfunctional people and families, so I was surprised to see your strong rejection of the Angulimala story. I have interspersed some comments below about the modern world. As an ex-lawyer, I do have a problem with the definition of "justice" - to most people it simply means "what I want". If I get what I want, that's justice. If I don't, then "there's no justice in the world". Justice is very much an ego thing - no wonder it finds the Dhamma challenging. You wrote: I find the story attached to the verses unconvincing - if we think > of the stories as slightly unreal things happening within a movie or > a book, then most can be swallowed without too much difficulty - like > the Jataka Tales of talking rabbits and dogs. But when looking for > truth and reasons behind human behaviour, one of the tests I make > is to transpose what is related to one's own city and neighbourhood > (within reason, of course). Then the Angulimala story doesn't quite > come up to scratch. Andrew: does it come up to scratch any more than people committing suicide to go and live in the tail of a comet? Alot of those people who perished under their purple blankets were very intelligent. > > Take his mother, for instance. Clearly she knows where he is and > what he is doing. Does she and the family intervene at any stage? > Say after the first, second, third or ninety-sixth murder? > Only when she hears that the King is taking an army to capture him, > does she make a move. > She wouldn't speak up to stop her husband evicting him, but traipses > into the forest by herself to warn him. A little unbelievable. Andrew: I can't say it is unbelievable until I know about what is expected of the mother/son relationship at the time. Certainly, during Viking/Anglo-Saxon times, a mother wouldn't be punished for supporting her murderous son - I suppose everyone expected and hoped their own mothers would do the same for them in dire situations. My point is that maybe a contemporary wouldn't bat an eyelid at what Angulimala's mum did. Witness the behaviour of parents in "honour killing" cases in Pakistan. > What a dysfunctional cast of characters! - The class-mates get > jealous and make up stories about Angulimala and the Teachers' wife. > The Teacher doesn't call everyone together or even speak to his wife, > just believes the slander. He expells Angulimala, and says he'll > take him back if he kills a thousand people and brings back their > thumbs. (A lot of highly intelligent people in this story :-)) > Angulimala's father then tosses him out because he was expelled > from school. Does anyone go to see the Teacher? Where was the love > for Angulimala then? What were his parents and his other relatives > doing when he was picking off the population one by one? Andrew: Again, perhaps they were doing the socially-accepted thing? As far as I know, there were no social workers in Pasenadi's kingdom (I'm not having a go at you, just suggesting it was a very different place to our Australia). > And has anyone given any thought to just how much a thousand thumbs > weigh, and what amount of space they'd take up hanging round his > neck? A little hard to pounce on anyone when you're bent almost > double with the weight of the bones and flesh hanging in front of > you. Apart from likely slipping into unconsciousness from the toxic > fumes rising.... And one wonders how he handled the packs of stray > dogs that surely launched attacks after following the 'interesting > aroma' pervading the neighbourhood? Andrew: Is this any more shocking than the Nazi doctor who made a lampshade out of Jewish skin? The annals of criminal history up to the present are very grisly indeed ... the bodies in the bank case in South Australia! > The behaviour of just about everyone concerned doesn't ring true. > Maybe Buddhaghosa, great scholar compiler and translator that he > undoubtedly was, didn't know much about people and human psychology > and interaction? Andrew: Not sure that you're right here. Assuming the Angulimala story is true, it is one that would be rejected by a HarperCollins publisher with the retort - "It may well be true, but nobody is going to believe it!" Fact is stranger than fiction. > > King Pasenadi, though, had nothing to forgive. His parents, wives, > children were not mentioned among the dead. But he did have a duty > as 'father' of the citizens of his country. He appears to have done > far too little, far too late. Andrew: Surely you're not in a state of disbelief over the fact of political incompetence and corruption and nepotism etc? I read somewhere once that Pasenadi's police (who wore a special hairstyle) were considered brutal and over-zealous by the people at the time. Can we blame him for thinking that the police should be able to handle the finger bandit case in the early stages? Anyway, those are my rambling thoughts on the matter. I hope they help. I think there can be real danger in judging the past by present day standards - like everything else, standards are impermanent. BTW loved the story of you "at the foot of a tree"! Can just picture the chaos and appreciate your sense of humour in sharing it. Metta Andrew 28881 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 8:44pm Subject: Re: Angulimala Hi Christine, I suspect you may also have difficulties accepting some of the parables of Jesus eg the prodigal son getting the royal treatment on his return to the father, despite having squandered his inheritance, and the master of the vineyard paying the same wage to all comers, regardless of what time of day they started. Liberation is liberation, those that have tried longer or harder or more earnestly or have strayed less don't get a better end product. I would protect my life and the life of those around me to the hilt, especially against some dropkick with a thumb-fetish. And the best advice I can give people is that there is no good way of organising the deckchairs on the Titanic. What more do you want :-) All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Connie, Herman and all, > "What is the relationship of Buddhism to Civil Law?" > This would include - in the case of the 999 murders - comforting the > grief-stricken, assisting broken families who are suffering economic > hardship, bringing home the families to their depopulated villages, > allaying the pervasive fear of the citizens, restoring lost economic > prosperity, assisting to bring back to production neglected farms, > caring for the widowed and orphaned, and giving short term food and > practical assistance where needed. In other words, encouraging > confidence in the citizens that there is someone responsible at the > helm of government, that each one of them is of valued and of equal > importance and entitled to the care and protection of the State. > > In the commentary story, are there any indicators that Angulimala, > King Pasenadi or the Sangha even gave those things a thought? > But, Angulimala achieved enlightenment? - ah, well .. that's all > right then. > > metta and peace, > Christine 28882 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 9:16pm Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Hi Ken, I very much appreciate your good cheer and humour :-) > > All right, but what did the Buddha teach? Isn't that all > that matters? Who cares what Herman or Ken accepts or > doesn't accept? No one! (apart from Herman or Ken) > > Enough about accept/don't-accept; let's just learn what > the Buddha taught. The trouble with you, Herman, is you > think you have time. (Where have I heard that before?) :-) I do not believe that I do not understand what the Buddha or Jesus is teaching. I just do not wish to accept these teachings of the Buddha or Jesus because the inevitable rejection of the world follows. Not ready, not willing, sorry :-) I do not believe that more study will lead to finding those bits where the Buddha says, "It's all right, keep doing what you're doing, just get the latest Masefield, it's a ripper" or Jesus says "look out for more of my scrolls and she'll be right". I hope you see my problem Ken. More study will lead to more rejection of what I'm studying, not because the material presented is flawed, but because it isn't flawed. Why do you study, Ken? > > Kind regards, > > Ken H > > H: The following is not a changing of your well-wishing > or name. I quite like them :-) > > > All the best > > Herman > ---------- > > Hooray! :-) > Love it !!!! All the best Herman 28883 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 11:30pm Subject: Re: Angulimala Hello Andrew, Herman and all, Andrew: I wasn't shocked by Angulimala and his garland of fingers - nothing physical shocks me much nowadays. Any hospital or mental health worker could tell a few equally hair raising stories. It is just that the interaction of the main characters, particularly in the beginning, is not believable. And the turn of events at the end doesn't show any compassion towards a great many others. I wasn't talking about the 'shockingness' of the garland of fingers - just the huge weight, increased bodily awkwardness, and smell. Hardly of assistance to some one needing not to rattle and clang when sneaking up on someone with a knfe. Killing ONE person, accidently or in self defense, is one thing - most parents would offer help and succour under those circumstances - but this is a story of a serial killer, with very odd reasons. The man killed 999 people. It would have taken years. He was a criminal, attacking his own people. I don't know one mother or father (in real life) who would support a son who did that, in such huge numbers. {This is not a misunderstanding of cultural diversity.} I understand accumulations and kamma, and I don't dispute that Angulmala became an Arahant. The bare facts are O.K. - Murderous bandit has a meeting with the Buddha, becomes enlightened. It is the story used to flesh out the facts that is improbable. Herman: The story of the Prodigal Son is always a favourite - I had no worries about welcoming back the sinner, and I felt compassion for the aggrieved, seemingly unappreciated elder brother. Did we ever hear how the story ended a few years down the track? Hopefully, once the father's joy had settled, and the elder son's hurt and jealousy had diminished, there was love and contentment between the three. These are normal human reactions, to be expected, they ring true. Paying the day labourers the same wage no matter what time they started, would adjust itself in time - people would merely come later and later, and the boss would have to institute a different payment scale! (Just kidding Herman, I know the real underlying Teaching.) I'm not sure I agree with the Titanic metaphor. The problem with Samsara is that it is 'unsinkable' - it just keeps sailing on and on. One has to find the door out and 'hop off'. Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28884 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jan 10, 2004 0:37am Subject: Free Will was (Two to tango .....) Hello Herman, Howard, and All, Herman's talking about Freewill, so we must be in January. :-) (I'm sure we had a discussion about Free Will once before?) I don't think there is any such thing - the very idea of free will implies the existence of a Self, when all there is is kamma, conditionality and accumulations ... is there anything else? Free Will and wanting to control, go hand in hand. "The Buddha taught that it is precisely this deep misunderstanding, the illusion of a self, that is the root cause of all human suffering. The illusion of self manifests as the ego, and the natural unstoppable function of the ego is to control. Big egos want to control the world, average egos attempt to control their immediate surroundings of home, family and workplace, and all egos strive to control what they assume to be their own bodies and minds." http://www.abhayagiri.org/dhamma/self.html Here is an excerpt about Free Will that you may find interesting: "To get a little ad hominem, denials of determinism always seem to center on a desire for something called "free will". I have yet to find anyone who can tell me what it is that the will is free of. Neither have I heard why behaving in a random, arbitrary manner is more noble than acting as the result of causes. I read Peter van Inwagen's book on free will (I forget the title), having been told that it showed that free will was compatible with determinism. I could not ever grasp the author's point. (I assume he had one.) Imagine that when we act, we have no reason for acting. We have no motivation. Our actions are totally unpredictable, even by statistics. Folk psychology is a delusion. Prophets, preachers, politicians, propagandizers, and advertisers are all wasting their time trying to cause specific kinds of behavior in an acausal system. Neither the actor nor the watcher can have any idea about what the actor will do next. The actor cannot control his actions, because they are beyond cause and effect. Neither reward nor punishment can modify behavior. We have no basis for any expectations. We have no reason for believing that a killer will ever kill again, even though he has done it 20 times in the past. Without causation, every action is uniquely isolated from every other action. We cannot reasonably apply the following terms, or any of their synonyms, to human actions: as a result, because, caused by, motivated by, if...then..., so, therefore, thus, why, how. The meaning of the physical world is in relationships. A non- deterministic world has no relationships. There are no meaningful details. If God were in the details, then he would be SOL with human free will. If one could ask "how?" about such acausal systems, one might ask how the tiny atomic and subatomic critters of which we are composed know when to go acausal. How do they tell the difference between being part of a refrigerator and being part of you or me? And how does an event know that it has ended, so that we don't get effects spilling over from one event to another? They must be cleverer than they look. Computer programs rely heavily on branching instructions. In human terms these look like choice points. The program has a choice of branching or not branching. It has other choices: it can place a 1 in a register, or it can place a 0. However, we know that programs are entirely deterministic. The apparent choice is dependent on the status of some flag, which in turn depends on some previous situation. Even if we don't understand how the computer will behave at any particular branch, I doubt that anyone would say that the computer really has a choice. How are human choices different from this, other than the fact that not all of our registers are open to examination?" http://www.coastalfog.net/buddhism/freewill.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" > Hi Howard, Christine and everyone, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > There is definitely will. I'm not clear, however, on what > exactly is > > meant by "free" will. What exactly is such willing supposed to be > free OF (or > > FROM)? When there is willing, I do believe that it is conditioned, > that it > > arises for reasons among which are desires, and these desires, in > turn, arise due > > to conditions. Do we mean that a choice is made not under duress, > without > > being forced to choose a particular way by threats? If so, then, > yes, often there > > is free will. But I don't think anyone will say that that is > exactly what they > > mean by 'free will'? Is it not possible that we really don't know > what we > > mean when we say "free will," and that it is more of a vague > feeling than a well > > understood concept? > > With metta,Howard =========================== A great debate in physics in the early 20th century revolved around > whether there could be a scientific theory that could predict any > future state of affairs given a known state of affairs. > Einstein et al firmly did not want to believe that "God could play > dice". He approached the cosmos in a deterministic way. Bohr et al > had no such predilection. Hence theories of relativity and quantum > mechanics. It seems there is evidence both for and against both of > them. > I would reckon it to be very worthwhile to examine notions such as > free-will, to find out what substance there is to them. I would > start of by making the following points: > 1] To say that something is conditioned does not mean to say that it is determined. > 2] The notion of free-will comes from the experience of > indeterminacy. > All the best >Herman 28885 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jan 10, 2004 1:14am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Dear James, Htoo and Herman, Thank you, James, for your long and thoughtful post, I genuinely appreciated it. I plan to respond to it in detail later. For now, I thought I would concentrate on a point you and Htoo have both made (and I think Herman has agreed with). Htoo wrote: ------------- > While trying( conventional ) is needed trying ( in Paramattha ) is not needed. ??? more confused? > ------------- and James wrote: ------------- > One practices from when it is a person knowing gross phenomena until it is only dhammas knowing dhammas. > -------------- You both seem to be saying the same thing, namely, that at a certain level, we can try to have right mindfulness (satipatthana). My questions remain: Did the Buddha teach us to try? Can we try? Ultimately, there are only dhammas. In conventional reality, there are people and places but conventional reality is no reality at all -- a better name for it is 'illusion.' Dhammas don't try to arise and cease; they simply depend on the laws of conditionality. (Right effort, for example, arises with, but follows after, right understanding.) Therefore, when we, conventional beings, try to have right mindfulness (or try to do anything), that is pure illusion. This leads me to believe that the Buddha would never have taught such a thing. In another post, Htoo wrote to Herman and me: ------------- > Anyway, fighting nama, welcoming nama and mindful nama have been learnt. Thanks. > ------------- :-) You are having a laugh at our expense. I'm sure we both claim poetic license. I said that right mindfulness would welcome lobha; I don't really believe 'welcoming' is one of the functions of samma-sati. (No more than is 'trying') :-) Kind regards, Ken H 28886 From: dragonwriter2 Date: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:04am Subject: Question Re: Stage Hypnotism Hi Sarah/James :) Thanks for the replies! yes 'conditions, conditions' ;) I've been reflecting on birth, ageing, sickness and death and all the different ways they are experienced by sentient beings. Too the individual the exact ripening of these occurences are unknowable/unavoidable regardless of intent and aspirations. Yet it gladdens me to know that inspite of this Buddhas of past, present and future do arise to show the way to the deathless. Metta, Simon L. 28887 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:21am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hi Michael Michael: I said before and let me clarify this again, I have difficulties in accepting some teachings expressed in the commentaries to the Canon but I have never negated the teachings of the suttas, quite the contrary. But in my view some of the commentaries to the Canon negate the teachings of the suttas. I said this many times and say again, in the suttas there is no teaching about paramatha/sabhava. Did the Buddha say that the first noble truth is that there are paramatha? And that the fourth truth is the way to fully and directly understand paramatha, and that this understanding will provide an end to suffering? No, definitely not, there is no paramatha coming from the mouth of the Buddha. And in defense of the commentators it has been argued that already at the time of the Buddha his disciples were giving teachings and interpretations of brief utterances by the Buddha. This is correct but in many instances those teachings by his disciples were confirmed by the Buddha. Which is not, of course, the case with Budhaghosa. K: I have to admit that I have not seen Buddha said about paramatthas in any of the suttas. The commentators classify the five khandhas as paramatthas. The first noble truth, the clinging of the five khandhas are paramatthas. If you replace the five khandhas with paramatthas, can you see any difference in the meaning? The meaning does not changed. M: In the first years when I got in contact with Buddhism I was fully immersed and absorbed with Theravada doctrine and interesting enough I had exactly the same views in relation to paramatha/sabhava as the ones generally expressed in this list. Fortunately though I met some challenges to my beliefs which at that time I found really hard to accept. But it raised some doubts in my mind and pursuing the answers to those doubts I came across some interpretations which only brought me closer to the suttas and pointed towards the distortions in the commentaries. K: Please refrain from those interpretations that comes out of people's thinking, I encourage you to look into the text yourself. Decide for yourself whether the commentaries have taken this position. Michael: In the Kaccayanagotta Sutta (SN XII.15) the Buddha talks about the world and how people view the world. He says that usually people see the world as either existing or not existing. And then he provides his view of the world which is dependent origination. It is quite clear from this sutta that the Buddha is rejecting the notion of existence/non existence in favor of conditionality. And it becomes quite clear that existence and conditionality is not the same thing. Conditionality means that the thing depends entirely upon conditions for its existence. And by extension if something depends entirely upon conditions it cannot have any form of intrinsic/inherent substance in it, in other words it has to be devoid of essence. Because by definition an essence is not subject to conditions, otherwise it would not be an essence. Now if the Buddha is favoring conditionality and rejecting existence, it can only mean that the existence he is referring to is intrinsic/inherent existence. Now, paramatha and sabhava means ultimate existence with intrinsic nature (or own unique characteristic which leads to the same conclusion as intrinsic nature). The simple fact that something is considered to be ultimate implies some form of unique, own attribute, which points towards an essence. If it doesn’t have that how can it be ultimate? So, what I see is that the commentators have led the Theravadins to believe that a phenomena can be at the same time an ultimate reality, which has to have, by definition, some form of intrinsic nature, and at the same time be subject to conditionality. The problem is that this is impossible. Either a phenomena truly exists or it is subject to conditionality, and if all phenomena are subject to conditionality then we are left with just conventional reality. The world has no ultimate realities only conventional realities. And conventional reality is the same as conditionality. That is what the Buddha said in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta. K: Let ask youself this qn, can you reject the position that the existence out of conditionality is still existence, if there it is not an existence, then how do we experience it. If it is not an existence out of conditionality at that moment of its arisen and its cessation, then it will mean a totally nihilistic position. No existence at all. At the moment when we felt pain, can we say there is no pain at all. That is the position of our paramattha/sabhava position. Pain is irreducible and it has distinct characteristic and it exist at that moment of our experience and it will also goes away. Buddha does not reject existence, he reject existence out of eternalism or nothingness viewpoint. In the dependent condition, if these Ignorance .... death do not exist, Buddha will not be able to describe it for us. IMHO Buddha does not teach no existence, he teach there is existence but this existence must be due to conditions bc an uncaused existence is eternalism. Buddha has describe the links clearly, which means each link has its own characteristics. If they do not have their own characteristics how do we differentiate that there is ignorance, there is contact. Hence this is what we meant by sabhava in the commentaries, the characteristics of a dhamma. Other interpretaton of this meaning by other writers are basically their own not the position of the commentaries. K: Furthermore, I think there is some confusion on the usage of ultimate. Ulimate is just plain irreducible not in the sense used like ulimate power (something like God). In fact, I have asked this qn why used this word in the list, why not used emphirical or basic. I think the commentarian position is that the distinction of conventional and ultimate reality is that conventional reality is not directly experience by one consciouness while ultimate reality is. This is my personal position, the reason why conventional reality is not promoted in the commenataries are bc conventional reality is subjective and not objective. Why we talk about for eg a vase, it is conventional reality, once broken there is no longer a vase, however when we used ultimate reality, a blind man will know the distinctive characteristic of hardness of the earth element of the vase be it broken or not. In this sense, ultimate reality provide a framework of standardisation of knowing the dhamma. It removes the subjectivity, it is like science. But let me emphasis all these ultimate realities are conditions. Kind regards Ken O 28888 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:24am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Hi Ken, Ken: Thank you, James, for your long and thoughtful post, I genuinely appreciated it. I plan to respond to it in detail later. James: I'm glad that you appreciated it. You don't need to respond to it in detail, only if you want to. I think you bring up the heart of the matter in this post. Ken: Ultimately, there are only dhammas. In conventional reality, there are people and places but conventional reality is no reality at all -- a better name for it is 'illusion.' James: Here we are going to disagree. It isn't right thinking to reject the existence of conventional reality; actually, they might just put you in a mental institution for that! ;-) Conventional Reality and Ultimate Reality are both realities, at least according to Buddhism (and my way of thinking). Conventional Reality should be seen as `Superficial Reality' and Ultimate Reality should be seen as `Deeper Reality'. The existence of one doesn't negate the existence of the other; they should both be seen as actually existing. The unenlightened (worldlings) see and know just the superficial reality (and sometimes not even that!) and the enlightened (arahants) truly and more fully know both. The Abhidhamma and its system of categorizing dhammas is only for the sake of convenience; it doesn't completely describe Ultimate Reality. Ultimate Reality cannot be described in words or concepts. The Buddha taught the anatta (non-self) of entities (humans, devas, animals, etc.), the Pali Abhidhamma took this a step further and teaches the non-self of everything by classifying namas and rupas. Mahayana Buddhism took this even a step further with the teaching of `Emptiness'. Personally, I don't think that any of these teachings are wrong; they are just increases in the sophistication of the teaching of anatta. But no system of thought, no matter how sophisticated, can truly describe anatta. It must be experienced first hand. Ken: Dhammas don't try to arise and cease; they simply depend on the laws of conditionality. (Right effort, for example, arises with, but follows after, right understanding.) James: We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't see the Eightfold Path as purely descriptive of perfect moments that arise spontaneously (`mini-meditations'); I see it as prescriptive and descriptive of a path of practice. Buddhism isn't just a philosophy to me; it is a religion and a way of living to me. Ken: You both seem to be saying the same thing, namely, that at a certain level, we can try to have right mindfulness (satipatthana). My questions remain: Did the Buddha teach us to try? Can we try? James: Yes did and yes we can. Don't try too hard and don't try too little, the Middle Way. Of course you aren't going to see it this way because you think the Eightfold Path is just a description or philosophy. The only thing I can say is to consider carefully the Buddha's life and the Sangha he established. He and his monks weren't just armchair philosophers waiting for perfect moments to arise. Metta, James 28889 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:03am Subject: Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Dear Sarah, Jon, Michale B and all How are you, Dhamma friends? The following are an off-list discussions between me and Sarah & Jon, and my edited re-post of my previous message (28813) with corrections on this thread. I hope that the new revised post reads better and politer! :-) Suan -------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah and Jon Thank you for your invitation to Hong Kong. Even though there is no plan now, you never know these things. :-) Sara quote: "Who said that the people with the wrong views (micchaadi.t.thi) could not come up with such laughable accusations and advice?" You are spot-on again! After your message, I was wondering what passages might fit the description, and I did think about the one above. I did not have to write that type of question which was not related to the main points of the post. But, somehow, when you write something, that type of overflow slipped through unfortunately. Before I click the SEND button, I always check my posts. But, when I became tired due to sleepiness (the post was written very late night / early morning), carelessness happened. In fact, I even forgot to save the post before sending to DSG. That was very unwise because sometimes Yahoo played up and I might have lost what I wrote. I also made a syntax error in that post. (...was called.. for nothing instead of ... was not called ... for nothing) Sarah also quote: "Good luck with your second-hand Buddhist views!" Yes, the above also was out of context. I did not need to add that, either. My usual "With regards," perfectly does the job! Sarah also quote: "Your patronizing accusations.... " Yes, perhaps it was also harsh. Well, Sarah, I agree with you, and thank you for pointing those things out. I will try my best to trim unnecessary rude slips of the tongue from my future posts. Cheers! Suan (Sarah wrote:) Dear Suan, Thanks for your good wishes too. I repeat that we really appreciate your posts and the serious and well-researched Theravada content. Thanks for taking our suggestions in good faith. > How about quoting particular passages in my posts that you think > contain the wrong tones? That way, I could examine them as >reminders realistically for future posts. ... I'll add a couple of comments at the end then,which I think can easily be misconstrued and detract from your good post. ..... > How is the weather in Hong Kong? In Canberra the holidays (Christmas > and New Year period) were extremely hot, then luckily now we are having > slightly wintery days. :-) ... This is the best time if you ever think of visiting (which we'd be very glad of). Every day is sunny, clear and mild. The forecast says cooler next week, but winters are the best here. Thanks again for all your helpful posts to Michael. Many will appreciate them. Metta, Sarah (& Jon) ============ Suan: >Your patronizing accusations.... .... >Who said that the people with the wrong views (micchaadi.t.thi) could not come up with such laughable accusations and advice? >Good luck with your second-hand Buddhist views! _______________________________________ THE FOLLOWING IS AN EDITED RE-POST OF MY PREVIOUS POST (28813) WITH CORRECTIONS. _________________________________________ Dear Michael B, Nina, Howard, Htoo, Enzir, James and all How are you? Happy New Year to Howard, Htoo, Enzir and James! Michael wrote: "1. Thanks for your effort. Not that it has produced many results because you preferred to leave many questions unanswered." Suan : Perhaps, my style of answering may not be to your liking. For example, you asked me to give you an abstract definition of what truth is. I answered that truth does not exist by itself on its own. Here is my question to you. Does the thing called truth exist independently of the paramattha dhammaa (real or actual phenomena that can be observed, experienced, and experimented)? Michael wrote: "2. But don't worry in providing those answers because it is quite clear to me what is the thinking of the ancient Theravada commentators." Suan: I doubt it very much. If you haven't read (at least some of ) those ancient Theravada commentaries, you are very unlikely to know their thinking and how they never deviated from the teachings of Gotama the Buddha. They are not famously called, and accepted as, the orthodox followers of the Buddha for nothing! Michael also wrote: "3. You refrained from giving me a definition of paramatha but the article written by Karudanasa (I presume he is part of your list of trusted scholars – don't bother to answer) clearly shows what paramatha means:" Suan: No, I never refrained from giving you a definition of paramattha. Even though I did not quote from Pali sources, I did provide the qualities of paramattha dhammaa as follows. "Thus, the qualities that make something a paramattha phenomenon is 1. emergence when there are relevant conditions. 2. total disappearance when those relevant conditions disappear. Please also note that I describe anger as a phenomenon that emerges, instead of stating that anger "has" a real existence as though it were a container that contains something." So what was wrong with my definition? Do you agree with those defining qualities of a paramattha? Michael also wrote after quoting from Karunaadasa: "4. Those are quite straight forward explanations of what is a paramatha and paññatti. There are many words used in those quotes, like `own-nature,' `own-being,' `characteristic peculiar to a dhamma,' `distinctive intrinsic characteristic,' `existence,' `ontological ultimacy,' `truly existing thing,' `exists in a real and ultimate sense.' All those words only confirm to me what I knew already. Pointing to qualities that the dhammas posses that can only be explained by one attribute. If the dhammas are all that which has been described, they must have an essence, they exist from their own side, by their own power. But this interpretation is not in accordance with the suttas." Suan: So you like answers with big terms like "own-being", "ontological ultimacy" that confirm what you knew already. And then you accused Abhidhamma commentaries of not being in accordance with the Suttas. Aha! Now I know why you were disappointed with my answers. My answers did not confirm what you "knew" already, nor they allow you to accuse Abhidhamma commentaries of conflicting with the Suttas? But, my answers come from Abhidhamma commentaries! Amazing, isn't it? And then, Michael wrote as follows. "5. I said before and say again, there is no paramatha, no sabhava, in the suttas, and paññatti appears in the suttas but with a different meaning than the one used in the Abhidhamma commentaries. Those are all concepts invented by the Commentators. I am not discarding the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma is a good tool to understand human psychology but it is very poor in defining Buddhist philosophy." Suan: What you wrote above reminded me of an ostrich hiding its head in the sands. Assuming that you haven't read the standard Pali commentaries, those types of accuations should not be made before you have learnt to read those commentaries themselves. Hence, my previous advice to you that you do your homework! When you have adequate skills and patience and time to read the standard Theravada Pali commentaries, perhaps you might well be able and willing to revise your present position. Then Michael made further remarks as follows. "6. I have to say that from my point of view this thread is closed. I realized from recent messages that my observations have stirred up a lot of emotions. I don't want to upset people even more. For those who don't have a strong attachment to their views and want to better understand a philosophical stand which is closer to the teachings of the suttas I suggest to study the Madhyamaka philosophy. For those who have strong attachment to the views expressed by the Abhidhamma commentators, just remember that any strong attachment is a hindrance in the path." Suan: Many people on this list are Theravada Buddhists. The charactersitcs of Theravdins are their preservation, research, learning, and practicing of Pali TIPI.TAKA. Please note my emphasis on TIPI.TAKA with Capital Letters. Ti means three. Tipi.taka means the Three Collections of Gotama the Buddha's teachings, namely, Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma. What I am getting at is that Theravadins directly learn from Suttanta Pi.taka. As such, they do not need to study Madhyamaka philosophy so as to understand a philosophical standpoint which is CLOSER to the teachings of the SUTTAS. Please pay attention to CLOSER and SUTTAS. Michael, do you realize that you are advising the Theravadins who directly learn and follows Pali Suttas to opt for something that is merely CLOSER or APPROXIMATE to Suttas? With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: Suan (and all,) May you all be happy and sorry for any disturbances that I may have caused. Metta Michael 28890 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:42am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hello Victor, Victor: It is hard to convince those who hold the Abhidhamma views as what the Buddha to discard these views. It is also hard to convince those who have discarded the Abhidhamma views as not what the Buddha taught to take up these views and hold them as what the Buddha taught. Michael: I have said this countless times and have to say again, I don’t discard the Abhidhamma teachings. I don’t say that the Abhidhamma are not the teachings of the Buddha. But I say that the commentaries (some of them) have misrepresented the contents of the Abhidhamma. Metta Michael _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 28891 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:59am Subject: Re: Angulimala Hi Christine Firstly the answer the part on physical strength, if you read the sutta, <<"Isn't it amazing! Isn't it astounding! In the past I've chased & seized even a swift-running elephant, a swift-running horse, a swift-running chariot, a swift-running deer. But now, even though I'm running with all my might, I can't catch up with this contemplative walking at normal pace.">> --- this show how strong he is physically. A king supposed to be the supreme chief judge in the country, isn't this make him seem that he is not doing his job. Bc it was Buddha who said that Angulimala is a change man and I think that made a lot of difference. And during that time, ascetics are highly esteem in the society, hence when Angulimala is reborn to a Noble Birth, his old actions should be considered ceased -- this can been seen further down the sutta that he is of a Noble Birth <<"Then in that case, Angulimala, go to that woman and on arrival say to her, 'Sister, since I was born in the noble birth, I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'">> Wont this affect the standing of Buddha - no bc I believe at that time I think Buddha name will have been very well known so what he said will have erase the impact of his acceptance of Angulimala. In fact by subduing Angulimala, would have increased his reputation as a teacher of Gods and Humans. <> What kind of justice is this? - Angulimala should be jailed and caned etc..... Justice in Buddhism is kamma and not justice in society laws. This can be very unhuman but it is like this. Isn't this story a but improbable - I dont think so, if you read the newspaper and especially stories about serial killers - things are not impropable. best wishes Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Andrew, Herman and all, > > Andrew: I wasn't shocked by Angulimala and his garland of fingers - > nothing physical shocks me much nowadays. Any hospital or mental > health worker could tell a few equally hair raising stories. It is > just that the interaction of the main characters, particularly in the > beginning, is not believable. And the turn of events at the end > doesn't show any compassion towards a great many others. I wasn't > talking about the 'shockingness' of the garland of fingers - just the > huge weight, increased bodily awkwardness, and smell. Hardly of > assistance to some one needing not to rattle and clang when sneaking > up on someone with a knfe. Killing ONE person, accidently or in self > defense, is one thing - most parents would offer help and succour > under those circumstances - but this is a story of a serial killer, > with very odd reasons. The man killed 999 people. It would have > taken years. He was a criminal, attacking his own people. I don't > know one mother or father (in real life) who would support a son who > did that, in such huge numbers. > {This is not a misunderstanding of cultural diversity.} > I understand accumulations and kamma, and I don't dispute that > Angulmala became an Arahant. The bare facts are O.K. - Murderous > bandit has a meeting with the Buddha, becomes enlightened. It is the > story used to flesh out the facts that is improbable. > > Herman: The story of the Prodigal Son is always a favourite - I had > no worries about welcoming back the sinner, and I felt compassion for > the aggrieved, seemingly unappreciated elder brother. Did we ever > hear how the story ended a few years down the track? Hopefully, once > the father's joy had settled, and the elder son's hurt and jealousy > had diminished, there was love and contentment between the three. > These are normal human reactions, to be expected, they ring true. > Paying the day labourers the same wage no matter what time they > started, would adjust itself in time - people would merely come later > and later, and the boss would have to institute a different payment > scale! (Just kidding Herman, I know the real underlying Teaching.) > I'm not sure I agree with the Titanic metaphor. The problem with > Samsara is that it is 'unsinkable' - it just keeps sailing on and > on. One has to find the door out and 'hop off'. > > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28892 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:04am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 ) Hello James: James: The Buddha taught the anatta (non-self) of entities (humans, devas, animals, etc.), the Pali Abhidhamma took this a step further and teaches the non-self of everything by classifying namas and rupas. Mahayana Buddhism took this even a step further with the teaching of `Emptiness'. Personally, I don't think that any of these teachings are wrong; they are just increases in the sophistication of the teaching of anatta. But no system of thought, no matter how sophisticated, can truly describe anatta. It must be experienced first hand. Michael: I hope you don’t mind interfering here. The way I would describe it is that the Pali commentaries interpreted that the teaching of non-self only applies to entities (humans, devas, animals, etc.) but that the aggregates are an ultimate reality with true existence. Mahayana, specifically Nagarjuna teaches that the aggregates are empty, i.e. don’t have any form of true existence and are not an ultimate reality, because true existence is incompatible with conditionality. So from this perspective a dhamma and a being are exactly the same in nature, both are conditioned and are a conventional reality. Emptiness can be understood intelectually and be realized through direct knowledge. The Buddha taught conditionality, not any form of true existence. Metta Michael 28893 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:25am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paññatti VS Paramattha: To Nina, Mike B And Ken O Hello Ken O: Ken O: I think the commentarian position is that the distinction of conventional and ultimate reality is that conventional reality is not directly experience by one consciouness while ultimate reality is. This is my personal position, the reason why conventional reality is not promoted in the commenataries are bc conventional reality is subjective and not objective. Why we talk about for eg a vase, it is conventional reality, once broken there is no longer a vase, however when we used ultimate reality, a blind man will know the distinctive characteristic of hardness of the earth element of the vase be it broken or not. Michael: A being, lets say a tiger, according to your definition is a conventional reality which is not experienced directly. So if you get close to a hungry tiger and the tiger attacks you, you will experience nothing because the tiger is just a conventional reality. I see. Now you say that hardness is an ultimate reality because it is not subjective but objective. So any human being which touches that vase will feel exactly the same characteristic of hardness since it is objective. Now what about vipaka, where does vipaka come into play? One feels in accordance with the hardness but also vipaka, so you cannot say the feeling of hardness is purely objective. Ken O: In this sense, ultimate reality provide a framework of standardization of knowing the dhamma. It removes the subjectivity, it is like science. But let me emphasis all these ultimate realities are conditions.. Michael: I can almost agree with you here with some provisos. My view is that the dhamma theory is just what is possible for us to experience, and it is just enough to dispel our basic ignorance about reality. And reality is not that the dhammas are paramatha but that the dhammas are anatta, anicca, dukkha. What we have to realize are those three characteristics and for that purpose the dhamma theory is just perfect. The inference that the dhammas are paramatha is a trick of our deluded mind which has this need to see existence/non-existence in everything. Metta Michael 28894 From: Date: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:38am Subject: Conditionality Versus Causality (Re: [dsg] Two to tango ...) Hi, Herman - In a message dated 1/8/04 5:24:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > 1] To say that something is conditioned does not mean to say that it > is determined. ========================= When I use the term 'conditioned', I mean two things by it: One of these is merely "affected" by conditions (conditionality #1), but the other is 'arising entirely due to the coming together of needed conditions' (conditionality #2). I do believe that everything I know is conditioned in both of these senses. With regard to both of these, the way I distinguish the term 'conditioned' from 'caused', is that 'causality' presumes some "causal power/force," some substantial, but hidden "causative potency". My use of the term 'conditioned' assumes no such entity, but merely a regularity and predictability of preoccurrence or cooccurrence along the lines of "When this arises, that arises," and "When there is this, there is that" and "Without this arising, that doesn't arise" and "Without this, there is not that". In S II, 28, according to Kalupahana (I don't have the S. Nikaya in front of me to verify this), the four characteristics of dependent origination are given as "objectivity, necessity, invariability and conditionality," and this is what I have in mind. The preoccurrence form of conditionality that I call "conditionality #2", is the main form of conditionality #2 that corresponds to causality, but it is different from causality. The cooccurence form of conditionality #2 may be asymmetric or may involve mutual conditionality. When it is asymmetric, it also corresponds to causality, but is different from it. I see conditionality as an explanatory tool. Particularly, with regard to the preoccurrence form of conditionality #2, we may say, in tal